yeah that is what I assumed was happening. The reason I thought your network was so powerful was that I figured that you guys had everyone who had died in the game brainstorming against us.
In normal phallas, once people die they can't help the network talk through ideas. In this I felt like the network would be gaining an exponential amount of activity and speculation to bring us down.
That was why I was so mad at inactives. You had so much information at your disposal, were confirmed good in a way that the mafia couldn't touch and all you had to do was brainstorm for the last mafia. You could say anything in the thread with no repercussions from the mafia. Misdirection, confirmations, threats, etc. I really felt like some of the TRs didn't take full advantage of the awesomeness this phalla could have been for them.
Basically everyone sat back while Prof pew pewed mafia and did nothing. Pretty boring.
yeah that is what I assumed was happening. The reason I thought your network was so powerful was that I figured that you guys had everyone who had died in the game brainstorming against us.
In normal phallas, once people die they can't help the network talk through ideas. In this I felt like the network would be gaining an exponential amount of activity and speculation to bring us down.
That was why I was so mad at inactives. You had so much information at your disposal, were confirmed good in a way that the mafia couldn't touch and all you had to do was brainstorm for the last mafia. You could say anything in the thread with no repercussions from the mafia. Misdirection, confirmations, threats, etc. I really felt like some of the TRs didn't take full advantage of the awesomeness this phalla could have been for them.
Unless you didn't die until the second to last day...
Well, all the way through I was suggesting that Ebum let the confirmed dead Tabula Rasa guys into the network, and I understood why he kept me out (I contacted him as soon as he proved himself, and offered my services to the village.) I'm not sure what he told the network, as I never got on the proboards (and I'll not be able to read them until later today), but I was enjoying the thought that I had people convinced I was the unkillable anthropomorphic personification of Hope, who had gone a bit wonky in their synthetic brain.
So much for sowing confusion and fear in the minds of the mafia, but I did have a lot of fun playing the part! I dropped a few hints that I was Anarchy too, but I don't think anyone picked up on them. I ran out of ideas on how to post towards the end of the game, though.
So, the fact that people were meant to manipulate the vote and seer people via death was a good one, that seemed to be used early on, but not later in the game. I was trying to put mafia in the same day as EnlightenedBum in the hope that he still had his vigilante power too, but that didn't seem to do anything.
I'll go find out how many time people tried killing me now, and if Dac Vin started to lose it when I claimed I was invincible.
And no, I never betrayed the village. I was never really trusted by the village to be in a position where I could betray them.
I did hand you the second seer. It was the only information I really trusted you with the whole game.
*I* was sufficiently paranoid, it's why the seered TRs were never allowed onto the proboards. Julius was the only one of them that seemed to notice. I'm annoyed too, I was pretty sure lonely was going to come up evil and when she didn't I didn't question it enough. It's because "clueless evil" is a favorite tactic of mine and that's what it looked like to me. Dang.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Yes, the vote wasn't used as well as it could have. But even if it had been actively used to seer everyone in the thread, we'd still have lost on account of not being able to kill more than one mafia per day. Barring insane busdriver shenanigans, the game was over when the second vig died.
Not really a problem unique to this phalla, more a problem with having the village powers be rather fragile while the mafia powers are group-based. And that's what happens in most phallas.
BAH! I need to pay closer attention in the future. Sorry about pretty much losing the game for the village. Feel free to grudge and all that. If I ever get to be a good special again, I'll work on not actively harming my own side.
BAH! I need to pay closer attention in the future. Sorry about pretty much losing the game for the village. Feel free to grudge and all that. If I ever get to be a good special again, I'll work on not actively harming my own side.
Look back a few pages man. We didn't kill you because of your reveal. I took out the bottom 3 people in the thread who weren't warned for inactivity and were not us. One of them was you. You just happened to reveal that night and by targeting kay who was bus driving himself, gave the good side, one last dying vig. Honestly it worked out way better than you accidentally killing kay while we killed you.
Yes you should have contacted the network, but it wasn't your reveal that got you killed.
Thanks for running the game Varcayn, it really was very interesting. The core mechanics were generally solid, I just felt the abundance of information hurt the game. There really wasn't much to speculate about, once the network got going they pretty much decided how the vote was gonna get handled, and really the vote should be the thing that gets the most village participation.
Without the thralls our numbers wouldn't have mattered at all, but I think giving the mafia more powers related to the time travel or just less vulnerability to death seering would have been a better way to power up the mafia.
Great concept and excellent execution though. I'd love to see some mini's with experimental rule changes of the same thing.
I know we tried to kill you twice and zellpher tried once.
who were you bus driver targets?
edit: this is at kay.
I honestly don't recall. I know some of them were RNGed because I was ANARCHY, but some were pretty calculated.
I honestly do not remember killing Zellpher - I was certain you guys did that. I was so torn between protecting myself, and protecting ProfMoriarity the day he died, though. I figured you'd be smart and target us both, however.
Did I even come across as vaguely immortal? Or scary? Or crazy? :P
I know we tried to kill you twice and zellpher tried once.
who were you bus driver targets?
edit: this is at kay.
I honestly don't recall. I know some of them were RNGed because I was ANARCHY, but some were pretty calculated.
I honestly do not remember killing Zellpher - I was certain you guys did that. I was so torn between protecting myself, and protecting ProfMoriarity the day he died, though. I figured you'd be smart and target us both, however.
Did I even come across as vaguely immortal? Or scary? Or crazy? :P
No I sent in the kill order on Zellpher myself. That was us.
I didn't think you were immortal, but I just hate when busdrivers can target themselves. We would have assumed you were something else if you didn't say in the thread at some point that you were a bus driver. Obviously I assumed it could be misdirection, but then I started seeing extra kills we didn't send in and people we sent in orders on not killed.
I really hate the busdriver the vote leader trick in games with no vote trickle V_V. How many days were you not targeting yourself? I kept thinking maybe we hit you on the few days you did target yourself instead of just all the time.
I know we tried to kill you twice and zellpher tried once.
who were you bus driver targets?
edit: this is at kay.
I honestly don't recall. I know some of them were RNGed because I was ANARCHY, but some were pretty calculated.
I honestly do not remember killing Zellpher - I was certain you guys did that. I was so torn between protecting myself, and protecting ProfMoriarity the day he died, though. I figured you'd be smart and target us both, however.
Did I even come across as vaguely immortal? Or scary? Or crazy? :P
No I sent in the kill order on Zellpher myself. That was us.
I didn't think you were immortal, but I just hate when busdrivers can target themselves. We would have assumed you were something else if you didn't say in the thread at some point that you were a bus driver. Obviously I assumed it could be misdirection, but then I started seeing extra kills we didn't send in and people we sent in orders on not killed.
I really hate the busdriver the vote leader trick in games with no vote trickle V_V. How many days were you not targeting yourself? I kept thinking maybe we hit you on the few days you did target yourself instead of just all the time.
...I didn't say I was a bus-driver at any point. I just kept insisting that I was a slightly off-kilter AI that was going slowly insane because, well. Anarchy.
I professed to be immortal, have kills, and to be a seer at some points, I think. I even attempted to insinuate that lonelyahava was greeeeeed, but EB was all 'shut up she was seered'.
I know we tried to kill you twice and zellpher tried once.
who were you bus driver targets?
edit: this is at kay.
I honestly don't recall. I know some of them were RNGed because I was ANARCHY, but some were pretty calculated.
I honestly do not remember killing Zellpher - I was certain you guys did that. I was so torn between protecting myself, and protecting ProfMoriarity the day he died, though. I figured you'd be smart and target us both, however.
Did I even come across as vaguely immortal? Or scary? Or crazy? :P
No I sent in the kill order on Zellpher myself. That was us.
I didn't think you were immortal, but I just hate when busdrivers can target themselves. We would have assumed you were something else if you didn't say in the thread at some point that you were a bus driver. Obviously I assumed it could be misdirection, but then I started seeing extra kills we didn't send in and people we sent in orders on not killed.
I really hate the busdriver the vote leader trick in games with no vote trickle V_V. How many days were you not targeting yourself? I kept thinking maybe we hit you on the few days you did target yourself instead of just all the time.
...I didn't say I was a bus-driver at any point. I just kept insisting that I was a slightly off-kilter AI that was going slowly insane because, well. Anarchy.
I professed to be immortal, have kills, and to be a seer at some points, I think. I even attempted to insinuate that lonelyahava was greeeeeed, but EB was all 'shut up she was seered'.
Now I'm gonna have to find it. Maybe you didn't say it but EB did in the thread? I'll take a look for it.
edit: I can't find it off-hand, but I thought someone said you were the bus driver in the thread after zell tried to kill you. I just don't remember when or who.
Someone insinuated that I killed Zellpher, maybe. I just remember calling him a silly after he called his kill on me after narration.
Because functionally, I was immortal.
I had a lot of fun with the posting, and tried to give my 'Anarchy' role away a few times. I mean, I'd told EBum straight up that I was neutral, did not need to remove Greed from the game, but was willing to in return for not being voted out, and for occasionally killing outed mafia when I could.
EBum wouldn't keep the seer targets secret though, and let me busdrive onto them. He had to use the vote.
I know I'm still pretty new to Phalla, but I'd like to make a comment. In this game, I felt that playing as a Villager was boring and pointless. All that was required of me was to log on once a day, see who the network determined should die, then vote that name. One post a day, determined by others. I could have, in theory, wrote a script to grab EBum's last post and vote the given name, and never touched the thread myself.
I think it was the lack of death; there was no reason to protect yourself as a villager, and thus no vested interest. I knew from the moment that I started that there was no reason to protect myself; I voted myself to the top precisely to prove that I was TR, and keep moving players through the "death seer" grind.
This was a game between the mafia and the specials; everyone else was just here for the ride. At least, that's how I saw it. (And keep in mind, the last few days I've been seeing it through the wonderfully hazy curtain of painkillers )
In addition to the points already made on this about anyone being just as capable as EB of calling hits, I just want to mention that being a dead villager would have taken on a lot more importance if the village attempted to use death-seering more.
Not to belabor the point, consider what could have happened if the village had say voted out someone they found suspicious (such as Trust, lonelyahava, Nion, and TehSloth, who were all on the list at the time) by having them win by one vote over confirmed evils like Wildcat, OS, and Exarch.
Getting any two of those people confirmed in such a manner using the Wildcat and OS wagons would have drastically altered the progression of the final day. Do this a couple more times and I believe the game could have been significantly different, even if you didn't hit the mafia thralls with it.
That was kinda why I kept pushing for unanimous votes.
After reading through the good proboard, I just want to say thank you too all the mafia keeping track of the past votes and Darian for switching people so intelligently. I didn't realize how good a job you guys were doing making Delmain look evil until I read their board.
Seriously mafia. Great job. You guys all did you parts, we had a lot of luck on our side, and we brute forced it until the end. I kept meaning to update myself on the possibility of vote shenanigans in the past, but was too busy focusing on the present.
Thanks Varcayn for running this. Your desire to spreadsheet a game like this amazes me :P
For the record, I thought the Prof was pretty awesome. Voting right there for Good-Aligned MVP. Zellpher gets the prize for least usful Good-guy.
I lost count of how many times I dodged kills though - was it three in the end? Did you ever try stacking kills to get me? Should have just dropped a kill on the vote-leader.
No kill stacking. Honestly if I have to stack mafia kills to kill a target then there is something wrong with the mechanics of the game. I don't feel like stacking targets is ever a good idea.
The potential waste of a mafia kill in this game was a little less since we had 4 and I would have potentially considered suggesting it if there were less than 4 targets left on the last day.
I thought this game had 1 more day and that you were good aligned tbh.
For the record, I thought the Prof was pretty awesome. Voting right there for Good-Aligned MVP. Zellpher gets the prize for least usful Good-guy.
I lost count of how many times I dodged kills though - was it three in the end? Did you ever try stacking kills to get me? Should have just dropped a kill on the vote-leader.
what do you see professor?
You do me too much credit, Kay. Rend really carried the show for the beginning of the game, going out of his way to develop a network and gather information. I was simply an obedient bloodhound. But man, was it fun.
Stacking kills wouldn't have done anything, at least not to me. It may have broken through a guard, but...
I should go through and check who my targets were each night. I was trying not to overthink things and concentrate on enjoying my 'post restriction', and going more with the theme of a whirling maelstrom of confusion and chaos rather than being too analytical about it.
I did finger Ahava as evil though, but was vetoed by the seered-thrall thing.
For the record, I thought the Prof was pretty awesome. Voting right there for Good-Aligned MVP. Zellpher gets the prize for least usful Good-guy.
I lost count of how many times I dodged kills though - was it three in the end? Did you ever try stacking kills to get me? Should have just dropped a kill on the vote-leader.
what do you see professor?
You do me too much credit, Kay. Rend really carried the show for the beginning of the game, going out of his way to develop a network and gather information. I was simply an obedient bloodhound. But man, was it fun.
Also, that PM you sent me? That was brilliant.
Rend's network started well, but had two Mafia in there, one of whom turned out to be a thrall. I should really have pushed to have more people taken out by the vote, and made Ebum keep the outed mafias unknown so I could kill them with my bus-drivering, which I think would have unnerved them a lot more than an 'apparently immortal' player.
Rend's network started well, but had two Mafia in there, one of whom turned out to be a thrall. I should really have pushed to have more people taken out by the vote, and made Ebum keep the outed mafias unknown so I could kill them with my bus-drivering, which I think would have unnerved them a lot more than an 'apparently immortal' player.
Oh man that would have been awesome. I would have been so much more afraid of you if you started busdriving our kills onto US.
Rend's network started well, but had two Mafia in there, one of whom turned out to be a thrall. I should really have pushed to have more people taken out by the vote, and made Ebum keep the outed mafias unknown so I could kill them with my bus-drivering, which I think would have unnerved them a lot more than an 'apparently immortal' player.
Oh man that would have been awesome. I would have been so much more afraid of you if you started busdriving our kills onto US.
Hey, I tried. I thought I managed earlier on, though I was given faulty info from the network (which I was never, ever invited into. Probably a good move, but hey. I wanted to help the village side while winning myself) and ended up killing Delmain. At least, I'm pretty sure that was me.
I suggested keeping the known mafia secret, then targetting myself and the known mafia, figuring that you wouldn't target your own guys, and the network wouldn't vig them once EBum explained, and then I could have started killing your guys off one by one instead of voting them off, so we could vote off unconfirmed suspicious people thus having a better chance of winning.
I hinted several times that I'd be better off in the network, and that dead Tabula-Rasa sorts should DEFINITELY be in there, but...
Apparently, I'm suspicious no matter what I do, as the Steampunk phalla (staying out in the sun? RIDICULOUS!) and Dunadan's constant grudge that I cannot fathom for the life of me has proven.
Well, I was at one point tempted to go to the outed Mafia to a) give them a scare, and b) convince them I was playing both sides for a massive betrayal that ended up with me being the sole survivor, but I decided not to go through with it in the end.
It would have been pretty unfair, given that I'd been true to the village for, well, the whole game.
(That, and the outed Mafia guys I was planning on going to weren't actually mafia.)
I need a role where I actually get a REAL posting restriction, instead of making my own up.
My only gripe would be that as a villager surviving as long as I did, it became pretty boring. Although I think that was more a function of how we (I) worked with the network than the actual game mechanics.
Because of the thralls, I wasn't allowed into the network while alive, even though I was seered as a TR - but I was in contact with a couple of people in the network, and felt confident enough in their group-brainstorming power to not really do much speculating on my own - I did try to ID potential targets and then PM my reasoning to the network heads, but I rarely got a response beyond "Hmm...interesting" - this was pretty frustrating, but I can understand their reluctance to trust anyone not death-confirmed.
I figured Kay was a neutral, and was told about his bus-driving semi-immortality eventually (by the network), but since he seemed to be village-aligned, I assumed he was a part of the network and tried to work with him.
It was fairly frustrating to realize that the only way I would actually be able to fully participate as a villager was if I died, and I became pretty irritated at the inactives, especially when they cost us the chance to swap votes and death-seer other unconfirmed living players. When the game devolved into "Hey, who do I vote for today?" I began to lose interest. Again, I don't feel it is a problem in the game mechanics, I think it was simply how this particular game played out with both of our vigs killed early on and the number of non-voters we had.
yeah that is what I assumed was happening. The reason I thought your network was so powerful was that I figured that you guys had everyone who had died in the game brainstorming against us.
In normal phallas, once people die they can't help the network talk through ideas. In this I felt like the network would be gaining an exponential amount of activity and speculation to bring us down.
That was why I was so mad at inactives. You had so much information at your disposal, were confirmed good in a way that the mafia couldn't touch and all you had to do was brainstorm for the last mafia. You could say anything in the thread with no repercussions from the mafia. Misdirection, confirmations, threats, etc. I really felt like some of the TRs didn't take full advantage of the awesomeness this phalla could have been for them.
Unless you didn't die until the second to last day...
Posts
ARGGHH, WHAT THE FUCK GUYS?
CHANNELING THE SPIRIT OF FYRAN RIGHT NOW
ARGGG
Basically everyone sat back while Prof pew pewed mafia and did nothing. Pretty boring.
Unless you didn't die until the second to last day...
So much for sowing confusion and fear in the minds of the mafia, but I did have a lot of fun playing the part! I dropped a few hints that I was Anarchy too, but I don't think anyone picked up on them. I ran out of ideas on how to post towards the end of the game, though.
So, the fact that people were meant to manipulate the vote and seer people via death was a good one, that seemed to be used early on, but not later in the game. I was trying to put mafia in the same day as EnlightenedBum in the hope that he still had his vigilante power too, but that didn't seem to do anything.
I'll go find out how many time people tried killing me now, and if Dac Vin started to lose it when I claimed I was invincible.
And no, I never betrayed the village. I was never really trusted by the village to be in a position where I could betray them.
*I* was sufficiently paranoid, it's why the seered TRs were never allowed onto the proboards. Julius was the only one of them that seemed to notice. I'm annoyed too, I was pretty sure lonely was going to come up evil and when she didn't I didn't question it enough. It's because "clueless evil" is a favorite tactic of mine and that's what it looked like to me. Dang.
Not really a problem unique to this phalla, more a problem with having the village powers be rather fragile while the mafia powers are group-based. And that's what happens in most phallas.
who were you bus driver targets?
edit: this is at kay.
Look back a few pages man. We didn't kill you because of your reveal. I took out the bottom 3 people in the thread who weren't warned for inactivity and were not us. One of them was you. You just happened to reveal that night and by targeting kay who was bus driving himself, gave the good side, one last dying vig. Honestly it worked out way better than you accidentally killing kay while we killed you.
Yes you should have contacted the network, but it wasn't your reveal that got you killed.
Without the thralls our numbers wouldn't have mattered at all, but I think giving the mafia more powers related to the time travel or just less vulnerability to death seering would have been a better way to power up the mafia.
Great concept and excellent execution though. I'd love to see some mini's with experimental rule changes of the same thing.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
I honestly don't recall. I know some of them were RNGed because I was ANARCHY, but some were pretty calculated.
I honestly do not remember killing Zellpher - I was certain you guys did that. I was so torn between protecting myself, and protecting ProfMoriarity the day he died, though. I figured you'd be smart and target us both, however.
Did I even come across as vaguely immortal? Or scary? Or crazy? :P
You must really hate me, Dunadan. I never betrayed anybody.
No I sent in the kill order on Zellpher myself. That was us.
I didn't think you were immortal, but I just hate when busdrivers can target themselves. We would have assumed you were something else if you didn't say in the thread at some point that you were a bus driver. Obviously I assumed it could be misdirection, but then I started seeing extra kills we didn't send in and people we sent in orders on not killed.
I really hate the busdriver the vote leader trick in games with no vote trickle V_V. How many days were you not targeting yourself? I kept thinking maybe we hit you on the few days you did target yourself instead of just all the time.
Thank you, Thank you, I'll be here fulfilling the village's every whim and constantly claiming to be neutral until eternity.
Try the veal.
I would have let you kill me to win if it was down to me and you. I love the idea of a SK role. Did you get seer'd or what?
Why don't more neutrals work with the mafia? The village hates neutrals and never uses them as awesomely as the mafia could. :P
Full props to Orange Soda for cajoling behind the scenes and doing a lot of the legwork. I hereby announce my grudge has ended.
...I didn't say I was a bus-driver at any point. I just kept insisting that I was a slightly off-kilter AI that was going slowly insane because, well. Anarchy.
I professed to be immortal, have kills, and to be a seer at some points, I think. I even attempted to insinuate that lonelyahava was greeeeeed, but EB was all 'shut up she was seered'.
Now I'm gonna have to find it. Maybe you didn't say it but EB did in the thread? I'll take a look for it.
edit: I can't find it off-hand, but I thought someone said you were the bus driver in the thread after zell tried to kill you. I just don't remember when or who.
Because functionally, I was immortal.
I had a lot of fun with the posting, and tried to give my 'Anarchy' role away a few times. I mean, I'd told EBum straight up that I was neutral, did not need to remove Greed from the game, but was willing to in return for not being voted out, and for occasionally killing outed mafia when I could.
EBum wouldn't keep the seer targets secret though, and let me busdrive onto them. He had to use the vote.
In addition to the points already made on this about anyone being just as capable as EB of calling hits, I just want to mention that being a dead villager would have taken on a lot more importance if the village attempted to use death-seering more.
Not to belabor the point, consider what could have happened if the village had say voted out someone they found suspicious (such as Trust, lonelyahava, Nion, and TehSloth, who were all on the list at the time) by having them win by one vote over confirmed evils like Wildcat, OS, and Exarch.
Getting any two of those people confirmed in such a manner using the Wildcat and OS wagons would have drastically altered the progression of the final day. Do this a couple more times and I believe the game could have been significantly different, even if you didn't hit the mafia thralls with it.
After reading through the good proboard, I just want to say thank you too all the mafia keeping track of the past votes and Darian for switching people so intelligently. I didn't realize how good a job you guys were doing making Delmain look evil until I read their board.
Seriously mafia. Great job. You guys all did you parts, we had a lot of luck on our side, and we brute forced it until the end. I kept meaning to update myself on the possibility of vote shenanigans in the past, but was too busy focusing on the present.
Thanks Varcayn for running this. Your desire to spreadsheet a game like this amazes me :P
Arrrrrrrrrgh!
I feel so impotent as a seer now!
By the way, all the inactives are now GRUDGED.
I lost count of how many times I dodged kills though - was it three in the end? Did you ever try stacking kills to get me? Should have just dropped a kill on the vote-leader.
what do you see professor?
The potential waste of a mafia kill in this game was a little less since we had 4 and I would have potentially considered suggesting it if there were less than 4 targets left on the last day.
I thought this game had 1 more day and that you were good aligned tbh.
You do me too much credit, Kay. Rend really carried the show for the beginning of the game, going out of his way to develop a network and gather information. I was simply an obedient bloodhound. But man, was it fun.
Also, that PM you sent me? That was brilliant.
I should go through and check who my targets were each night. I was trying not to overthink things and concentrate on enjoying my 'post restriction', and going more with the theme of a whirling maelstrom of confusion and chaos rather than being too analytical about it.
I did finger Ahava as evil though, but was vetoed by the seered-thrall thing.
Rend's network started well, but had two Mafia in there, one of whom turned out to be a thrall. I should really have pushed to have more people taken out by the vote, and made Ebum keep the outed mafias unknown so I could kill them with my bus-drivering, which I think would have unnerved them a lot more than an 'apparently immortal' player.
Oh man that would have been awesome. I would have been so much more afraid of you if you started busdriving our kills onto US.
Hey, I tried. I thought I managed earlier on, though I was given faulty info from the network (which I was never, ever invited into. Probably a good move, but hey. I wanted to help the village side while winning myself) and ended up killing Delmain. At least, I'm pretty sure that was me.
I suggested keeping the known mafia secret, then targetting myself and the known mafia, figuring that you wouldn't target your own guys, and the network wouldn't vig them once EBum explained, and then I could have started killing your guys off one by one instead of voting them off, so we could vote off unconfirmed suspicious people thus having a better chance of winning.
I hinted several times that I'd be better off in the network, and that dead Tabula-Rasa sorts should DEFINITELY be in there, but...
Apparently, I'm suspicious no matter what I do, as the Steampunk phalla (staying out in the sun? RIDICULOUS!) and Dunadan's constant grudge that I cannot fathom for the life of me has proven.
It would have been pretty unfair, given that I'd been true to the village for, well, the whole game.
(That, and the outed Mafia guys I was planning on going to weren't actually mafia.)
I need a role where I actually get a REAL posting restriction, instead of making my own up.
My only gripe would be that as a villager surviving as long as I did, it became pretty boring. Although I think that was more a function of how we (I) worked with the network than the actual game mechanics.
Because of the thralls, I wasn't allowed into the network while alive, even though I was seered as a TR - but I was in contact with a couple of people in the network, and felt confident enough in their group-brainstorming power to not really do much speculating on my own - I did try to ID potential targets and then PM my reasoning to the network heads, but I rarely got a response beyond "Hmm...interesting" - this was pretty frustrating, but I can understand their reluctance to trust anyone not death-confirmed.
I figured Kay was a neutral, and was told about his bus-driving semi-immortality eventually (by the network), but since he seemed to be village-aligned, I assumed he was a part of the network and tried to work with him.
It was fairly frustrating to realize that the only way I would actually be able to fully participate as a villager was if I died, and I became pretty irritated at the inactives, especially when they cost us the chance to swap votes and death-seer other unconfirmed living players. When the game devolved into "Hey, who do I vote for today?" I began to lose interest. Again, I don't feel it is a problem in the game mechanics, I think it was simply how this particular game played out with both of our vigs killed early on and the number of non-voters we had.
Or the last.