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Sharehouse Bond Nightmare!
desperaterobots
perth, ausRegistered User regular
perth, ausRegistered User regular
Hi Guys!
I have a crazy girl harassing me for her bond, threatening court action, etc. The story:
I and a mutual friend are on the lease for a 3 bedroom house, for which we paid the full bond when we signed the lease.
We had a (more or less complete) stranger (from the internet) move in with us to help with the rent. She paid a third of the amount of bond to us in cash.
She signed a tenancy application form to go on the lease (our property manager/agent was supposed to do this, but failed to). On which she said she wanted to stay for 12 months. We're about 8 months in.
Two weeks ago she surprised us by saying she'd committed to moving in to a new property, and was leaving in 2 weeks. We said okay. She asked about getting her bond back.
I responded saying we would wait until the landlord cleared the room for damage, or we got a new housemate who could pay the bond, since we didnt want to be liable for any damage she may have caused.
Since then I've had 3 or 4 text messages, starting with (condensed for your reading ease):
'I want my bond back immediately, the room is fine, its my money, you shouldn't have spent it!'
to
'I have confirmed with [some housing body] that it is illegal for you to not have put my bond in a [special bond-account] and you will be fined $rape unless you give me my bond!'
and today,
'I wil take you to court, the [consumer protection guys] confirmed its illegal to do what you did, i called your landlord who said you never sent them my bond money, i am going to take you to court unless i get my bond back immediately!'
Now, this girl paid us cash, and signed no lease. I don't see what protection she has at this point. But I'm not trying to be a dick about it -- we just simply can't afford to reimburse her bond at the moment; one of us is jobless, i'm skint, and now our rent has gone up by $135 a week.
She has parents who own a rental property, so they're giving her all kinds of exciting advice, I'm sure. Her last text message said 'You can't hold on to my bond money for 'just incase reasons', it's illegal!' Isn't that what bond is?
She has not yet returned her key; she physically moved out this tuesday gone, but had paid for her room up until the friday. That last text message I received today, meaning she'd been out of the house for 1 single working day and is already threatening me with a fucking court date.
I am being really terribly stressed out by this drama, and I'm tempted to pay her all of her bond back to shut her up, but my other housemate insists we withhold some amount for upcoming bills and for 'potential damages' (since we know we're bound to lose bond at the end of our tenancy). The light fitting in her room has detached from the roof somehow. She left her sections of my fridge filthy. She left rubbish and general crap. I don't agree with 'potential damages', but upcoming bills sounds pretty reasonable to me? Chasing her up will be a nightmare if this is how she's dealing with leaving.
SO:
Where do we stand? Should I pay her the full amount? Should I wait until she returns the key? Having not signed a lease, and having paid bond in cash, where would she stand if we disagree on the amount she paid us? I'm worried she might demand more bond than she may have paid, or dispute the amount we return to her. Can we use her application for tenancy saying she was to stay another 4 months with us as evidence that she's, you know, leaving us high and dry and therefore we can deduct bond for our increased rent?
Our property manager is almost always uncontactable, so I haven't had any word from her.
Help, renters/landlords of H/A!
TL;DR - Crazy housemate asking for immediate bond repayment threatening legal action; hasnt returned key; didn't sign a thing; paid cash; is impatient and an all-round cunt. How do I proceed?
I have a crazy girl harassing me for her bond, threatening court action, etc. The story:
I and a mutual friend are on the lease for a 3 bedroom house, for which we paid the full bond when we signed the lease.
We had a (more or less complete) stranger (from the internet) move in with us to help with the rent. She paid a third of the amount of bond to us in cash.
She signed a tenancy application form to go on the lease (our property manager/agent was supposed to do this, but failed to). On which she said she wanted to stay for 12 months. We're about 8 months in.
Two weeks ago she surprised us by saying she'd committed to moving in to a new property, and was leaving in 2 weeks. We said okay. She asked about getting her bond back.
I responded saying we would wait until the landlord cleared the room for damage, or we got a new housemate who could pay the bond, since we didnt want to be liable for any damage she may have caused.
Since then I've had 3 or 4 text messages, starting with (condensed for your reading ease):
'I want my bond back immediately, the room is fine, its my money, you shouldn't have spent it!'
to
'I have confirmed with [some housing body] that it is illegal for you to not have put my bond in a [special bond-account] and you will be fined $rape unless you give me my bond!'
and today,
'I wil take you to court, the [consumer protection guys] confirmed its illegal to do what you did, i called your landlord who said you never sent them my bond money, i am going to take you to court unless i get my bond back immediately!'
Now, this girl paid us cash, and signed no lease. I don't see what protection she has at this point. But I'm not trying to be a dick about it -- we just simply can't afford to reimburse her bond at the moment; one of us is jobless, i'm skint, and now our rent has gone up by $135 a week.
She has parents who own a rental property, so they're giving her all kinds of exciting advice, I'm sure. Her last text message said 'You can't hold on to my bond money for 'just incase reasons', it's illegal!' Isn't that what bond is?
She has not yet returned her key; she physically moved out this tuesday gone, but had paid for her room up until the friday. That last text message I received today, meaning she'd been out of the house for 1 single working day and is already threatening me with a fucking court date.
I am being really terribly stressed out by this drama, and I'm tempted to pay her all of her bond back to shut her up, but my other housemate insists we withhold some amount for upcoming bills and for 'potential damages' (since we know we're bound to lose bond at the end of our tenancy). The light fitting in her room has detached from the roof somehow. She left her sections of my fridge filthy. She left rubbish and general crap. I don't agree with 'potential damages', but upcoming bills sounds pretty reasonable to me? Chasing her up will be a nightmare if this is how she's dealing with leaving.
SO:
Where do we stand? Should I pay her the full amount? Should I wait until she returns the key? Having not signed a lease, and having paid bond in cash, where would she stand if we disagree on the amount she paid us? I'm worried she might demand more bond than she may have paid, or dispute the amount we return to her. Can we use her application for tenancy saying she was to stay another 4 months with us as evidence that she's, you know, leaving us high and dry and therefore we can deduct bond for our increased rent?
Our property manager is almost always uncontactable, so I haven't had any word from her.
Help, renters/landlords of H/A!
TL;DR - Crazy housemate asking for immediate bond repayment threatening legal action; hasnt returned key; didn't sign a thing; paid cash; is impatient and an all-round cunt. How do I proceed?
desperaterobots on
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In the US, you are generally required to keep the money in a separate account, for this exact reason since it wasn't your money. Your financial problems are not hers. Put another way, a lot of renters who are paying rent here are getting kicked out because their landlords are being foreclosed on. Doesn't sound very fair, does it?
IANAL, but as for your current situation, if she really has no paperwork defining the terms of the lease or bond, then probably little recourse. You should estimate what it will cost to return the room to a pre-her state, deduct it and return the rest.
PS: Change the locks!
But now she's freaking out, contending that we've illegally spent her bond money. No; it's just tied up with OUR contribution to the bond and we WILL reimburse her, when the landlord says 'no problems here' or we get a housemate who can cover her third.
She agreed to this when she told us she was moving out, but now has been sending these slightly insane text messages.
That said, she co-signed the lease didn't she? She can't just drop the lease whenever she wants until the lease terms have been met. So she is not eligible for any money, that is, until you move out. I bet donuts to dollars she didn't get, in writing, you saying you'd give her the money back either.
So, you win by default because, well, you still all live there and she's on the lease.
Of course, IANAL.
She filled in a tenancy application form, but the property manager never put her on the lease (like she said she would). So, technically, no, she's not on the lease. If she was, we would be saying 'you broke your lease, no bond for you until you find us a housemate.'
Like you said, parents are probably encouraging her since 'they know the law!'. Do you have her new address or parents address? Mail a letter (w/ tracking # if possible) saying you are awaiting appraisal of the room, and monies will be sorted then. Don't reply to texts, or post on her Facebook or whatever, keep it cool and calm.
It's only fair you give her the money back. If she was never actually added to the lease, she was your tenant. Any damages to that room would actually be on your ass with your current landlord, but let's not pretend room damages are even a factor here--go walk into the room and check right now.
Either way, the stipulations are there. Did she give you notice? Did she send you a text message? Was it a full 30 days in advance? Did you inform the landlord she's moving out, and did he schedule a time to check out the room so you can text her back and say, "The landlord is approving the damages so the bond can be payed on XX/XX/XXXX, you'll have to wait until all damages, if any, are itemized and deducted from the bond."
There's really nothing more to it than that, you can't pay out what you don't know about yet. Of course, you can fight it and win and make her wait, or you can just pay her deposit back and get her to shut the fuck up.
She's contending that we've mishandled her money in some kind of illegal way, for which she intends to bring to the attention of, shit, I don't know. THE FEDS! Or.. something. And now I'm, well, sort of freaking out. She's agreeing to things, and then unagreeing to things, and it's all quite retarded. We're not withholding the bond because we 'spent it', we just dont want to have our landlord tell us we're liable for damage she caused AFTER we refund the bond, since we're fucked then.
The only thing in writing is her tenancy application that says she was going to be here for 12 months. And it wasn't an application to us, it was to OUR landlord.
Bleh.
The thing is, it doesn't even sound like she's on the lease so there's no papertrail she paid into a bond/security deposit -- and there's really nothing (I'm guessing) in her tenancy agreement that says she'll be given her deposit back.
None of this shit is in writing, but it doesn't change the fact that he should give this girl her money back. He had no right to it in the first place.
No, nothing is in writing. What's easier, though? Giving the girl her bond back (which, in all fairness, should should get back), or having this drag out and possibly end up in small claims? OP: You won't get back the lost wages from skipping work in that case.
She's up the creek without a paddle, the landlord's tenancy agreement is still a signed legal contract which she broke.
All security deposits are supposed to be in a savings account earning interest though, which is what that sounds like, but it's only per lessee, and that interest is supposed to be claimed on the lessee's income taxes. AFAIK, IANAL.
It doesn't sound that way. It seems she signed a tenancy agreement and submitted it directly to the landlord. Still a contract. I'm also willing to bet she gave them the bond money in cash. So there's no record.
But yeah, it's probably easier to just go into the room, inspect it, and pay out. But legally he doesn't have to give a fuck since the agreement was given to the landlord and not him.
There is no proof that this girl paid her portion of a bond that was already paid (should never have been paid by her)
There is no proof that this girl even lived there.
There is no proof that the OP said it was fine for this girl to leave partway through the lease.
In the end, how much shit does the OP want to put up with the for the.. what... $300?
I'm willing to bet the property manager doesn't even have that application any more. Did the OP keep a copy?
No, no, not at all. I'm not trying to be a dick. We simply can't afford to repay the bond right now, so we were attempting to give ourselves some breathing room until we get a new housemate or the landlord inspects, whichever comes first. But she's being incredibly impatient - her tenancy expired friday - and she's jumping up and down for money we don't have, threatening court action!
The OP says theres some shit in her room thats awry and stuff was left unclean, rubbish left behind, etc. It's nothing big, like I said, but my other housemate thinks we should withhold SOME bond for upcoming bills at the very least. The less bond we have to repay the sooner we could repay it. Perhaps I should ask her if installments are okay?
Onus is on her, not him. He may be able to recover lost wages if he's the one being sued.
You can't say you're not trying to withhold her money and then say you can't afford to give it back to her in the same sentence.
It's really up to you at this point, because I'm pretty sure you could get away with keeping her bond money even if she can prove she a) paid it b) lived there. If you were to fuck off halfway through your lease, you wouldn't get it back either.
No, you can't recover lost wages in small claims.
In this situation, realistically, my advice would be to get her to agree that she has to return her key to the apartment and help clean up her mess and then you'll return the bond she paid. I think you'd lose in magistrate court because there is really nothing in writing stating you can keep/hold all/part of the bond money if she broke her oral agreement and moved out early. The only thing you have going is the fact you did submit a tenancy application that was never finalized, but even that is sketchy at best. However, if you can use that money as a carrot to entice her to do a bit of cleaning and return the key, you can at least get that taken care of. If you don’t have the money, offer her as much as you have and then beg/borrow/steal the rest.
If there is a lesson to be learned for the next time
1. Be more cautious about whom you room with in the future. Craigslist and other online sites are a great place to find a used boomerang or didgeridoo: A roommate, not so much.
2. Get everything in writing. No matter how tedious or informal, write it down and have everyone sign it. Even have it notarized if you’re feeling saucy.
3. Keep receipts, especially when someone gives you money you may be expected to return in the future.
The rule of thumb is you can't usually include it as part of the suit. Counter suits can, in most circumstances, be for lost wages or legal fees. This varies by state. Again, IANAL, my anecdotal evidence says yes, you can.
I have a copy, as does the landlord. "OH YEAH I HAVE IT ON FILE!" was the response I got when I asked if she'd received it. The ex-housemate tells me she called the landlord, who told her she was not on the lease. Haven't been able to confirm that, but I suspect it's true, since my landlord is prone to, you know, not doing shit.
That is the best line I think I've read in a while.
Still, CoJoe's advice is sound: Use the money as a carrot to get whatever you can get done, but ultimately you want to pay her. It's worth not having to go to court and deal with this shit any more.
Still, she should calm down, since if she was properly put on the lease, she wouldn't be getting a dime back.
But, yeah, it turns out she's not on the lease because my property manager didn't follow-up, so now we have no contracts or receipts or anything.
So what I meant by that was, she gave us two weeks notice. That notice expired on Friday just past. Now she's sending me LEGAL ACTION I WANT MY BOND NOW messages. She still has the key.
I get what you're saying, and that would make perfect sense had she stuck it out until the end of the lease with the rest of you.
It's a sticky situation, because now that she's leaving early you have to give her the money, but she shouldn't have been able to leave early. No amount of "notice" is enough to end a lease unless it's a mutual agreement. In this case, it appears you said 2 weeks notice was fine.
Bleh. Thanks team.
If you really can't come up with the full bond amount, give her as much as you can, give a definitive date as to when she can have the rest and tell her she'll need to be patient due to circumstances. That way, even if she marches into court and throws a hissy fit, you can explain the situation to the court and they will most likely give you the extra time to pay the rest. As long as you appear reasonable and willing to cooperate with her, the court shouldn't come down hard on you.
Is a Bond anything like a security payment? Like, I move in, pay my first and last months rent plus a security payment of a month's rent in case I trash the place?
That's exactly what a bond is. You're incorrect though. She didn't sign a lease. She signed an application to be added to the lease, but that never happened.
At best, she is bound by a verbal contract with the other people in the house. There was also a verbal agreement that her 2 weeks notice was enough to get out.
Unless Australia is way different than the US, she should have forfeited her "bond", which I am taking to mean security deposit, when she did not fulfill the full duration of the agreed upon time.
but they're listening to every word I say
No, because she said she needed to move out early and the OP (who is effectively her landlord) said, "Ok." He also went further by saying that he would return the deposit.
I just thought she'd exercise some fucking patience, seeing as how we're not trying to hold anything over her. She's behaving like we're villainous landlords from the 1800s.
She said 12 months, but you agreed to let her end the "lease" early when you accepted the 2 week notice.
I think all further discussions of what is legal or binding here are useless, since you've already been told by a lawyer that you'd likely lose in court.
Is there some kind of bad blood here or something? Can't you just call here up, tell her you understand that she needs the money, but she is supposed to be in an agreement with the land lord, not you, so the money is bound up, and you will get it to her as soon as possible?
I am sure if you talk to her and make sure she knows her concerns are important to you, any reasonable person will understand and be patient.
but they're listening to every word I say