I'm actually interested to see what will happen when I refuse to put my laptop away an hour before landing. What will they say? "I'm sorry, but now you can't get off the plane."
The "can't get up for an hour" is going to be the first one to go, probably following a lawsuit. I guarantee the first person that has a medical condition that isn't allowed to take a piss will be suing. And rightfully so.
Supposedly the TSA is now leaving the "no getting up or having anything in your lap in the last hour" rules up to the flight crew's discretion, according to a news article I read in the morning paper (they cited an anonymous source in the TSA). I'm willing to bet that most of these new restrictions will be gone before the end of January.
I guess I'll find out soon though; I fly back home tonight and am already preparing for an extra hour of bullshit.
What is the purpose of the "watch list" if it is not sufficient to garner extra attention at airport screening?
Seems to me that in nearly every incident, the government had information it could have or should have acted on, but didn't. So instead of acting on the information it has, the gov institutes these inane regulations so as to give the appearance of "doing something", regardless of how useless that something is.
As for profiling, there are Muslims of every ethnicity, so I don't know how that's supposed to help. If they're going off names... look up the names that are already on the damn watch list!
As for profiling, there are Muslims of every ethnicity, so I don't know how that's supposed to help. If they're going off names... look up the names that are already on the damn watch list!
:rotate:
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
A bit of a tangent, but I have an issue with the concept of No Fly Lists.
Such lists seem to be designed as an end run around due process. They restrict people's rights extrajudicially and without giving the effected people any recourse. Hell, no one even knows how people get on the list, or whether you can actually get your name removed.
If an American citizen is supporting terrorism, charge them with a crime. If someone here on a visa is a threat, kick them out. And we can certainly ban dangerous foreigners from travelling to the US.
But this idea of secret lists strikes me as un-American.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
A bit of a tangent, but I have an issue with the concept of No Fly Lists.
Such lists seem to be designed as an end run around due process. They restrict people's rights extrajudicially and without giving the effected people any recourse. Hell, no one even knows how people get on the list, or whether you can actually get your name removed.
If an American citizen is supporting terrorism, charge them with a crime. If someone here on a visa is a threat, kick them out. And we can certainly ban dangerous foreigners from travelling to the US.
But this idea of secret lists strikes me as un-American.
It's as American as Joe McCarthy. Still stupid, though.
While I agree with you about secret lists, [devil's advocate] it's not like there's a constitutional right to airplanes. They aren't "no travel" lists, no one is preventing them from Amtrak and Greyhound. Or ( I think) a charter flight. [/devil's advocate]
Out of curiosity, why does it matter if the plane is in the last hour of flight or not?
The plane's likely to be over/travelling toward a populated area, and not in the middle of nowhere. Though, it begs the question of why not right after takeoff or close to a populated area (which could be verified by looking out the goddamn window).
What is the purpose of the "watch list" if it is not sufficient to garner extra attention at airport screening?
Seems to me that in nearly every incident, the government had information it could have or should have acted on, but didn't. So instead of acting on the information it has, the gov institutes these inane regulations so as to give the appearance of "doing something", regardless of how useless that something is.
As for profiling, there are Muslims of every ethnicity, so I don't know how that's supposed to help. If they're going off names... look up the names that are already on the damn watch list!
The purpose of the watch list was to inconvenience Muslims and the political enemies of the Bush Administration.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
A bit of a tangent, but I have an issue with the concept of No Fly Lists.
Such lists seem to be designed as an end run around due process. They restrict people's rights extrajudicially and without giving the effected people any recourse. Hell, no one even knows how people get on the list, or whether you can actually get your name removed.
If an American citizen is supporting terrorism, charge them with a crime. If someone here on a visa is a threat, kick them out. And we can certainly ban dangerous foreigners from travelling to the US.
I have to say, Modern Man, that I agree with this 100%.
The stupidest part of the no fly list is people that share common names. There was a big article on CNN a few months ago about a 7 year old boy sharing the same name as a suspected terrorist who is on the list and the parents still haven't been able to get the boy off the list.
A bit of a tangent, but I have an issue with the concept of No Fly Lists.
Such lists seem to be designed as an end run around due process. They restrict people's rights extrajudicially and without giving the effected people any recourse. Hell, no one even knows how people get on the list, or whether you can actually get your name removed.
If an American citizen is supporting terrorism, charge them with a crime. If someone here on a visa is a threat, kick them out. And we can certainly ban dangerous foreigners from travelling to the US.
But this idea of secret lists strikes me as un-American.
It gets better when you apply logic to it. The idea of a No Fly List makes no sense, because unless every single potential terrorist is on it it's pointless. Either your security is good enough to keep a bomb (or other weapon) off the plane, or it isn't. If it is, then Osama Bin Laden himself should be able to get on a flight down to Tampa. If it isn't, then your list is pointless if you run into a single terrorist you haven't identified yet (or a known one with a bogus identity).
At best, the people on the NFL should be on a simple watch list, and flagged for additional screening. The idea that somebody can be too dangerous to be allowed to board a plane, even after you've identified them and run them through a security screening, doesn't say much about your security screening process.
The stupidest part of the no fly list is people that share common names. There was a big article on CNN a few months ago about a 7 year old boy sharing the same name as a suspected terrorist who is on the list and the parents still haven't been able to get the boy off the list.
They do at least have a process to get you a special ID card that basically says "I'm not the bad one."
There is a similar list to try and prevent major drug-dealer types from getting credit cards (and bank loans?), to try and keep them from laundering money. I'm sure terrorists are on the same list.
BUT, in addition to names it checks things like social security numbers, etc. I don't really have more details because when I worked at that job it was all checked automatically and I NEVER saw an application denied for that reason.
While I agree with you about secret lists, [devil's advocate] it's not like there's a constitutional right to airplanes. They aren't "no travel" lists, no one is preventing them from Amtrak and Greyhound. Or ( I think) a charter flight. [/devil's advocate]
Why argue devil's advocate for a completely useless thing?
The No-Fly list doesn't work. At all, ever. It never has and it never will. So arguing the merits doesn't really need to pass Go. Go being in this case "It is completely useless".
I have this theory that the continued "attacks" on planes are all part of some terrorist mastermind's Crowley-esque terror campaign. This dude realized that he didn't have the resources to carry out a large-scale attack, but that inconveniencing millions of people every single day is just as good as killing a handful of people once.
You buy a bunch of stuff on a credit card (department store cards are good for this). You pay off the credit card with your dirty money. You then return the merchandise and get clean money in exchange, either right then and there or through the mail a few weeks later since you have a negative balance.
I have this theory that the continued "attacks" on planes are all part of some terrorist mastermind's Crowley-esque terror campaign. This dude realized that he didn't have the resources to carry out a large-scale attack, but that inconveniencing millions of people every single day is just as good as killing a handful of people once.
That or they figured that the TSA would respond in the same way to this as with Richard Reid. Briefs are banned on flights and now you have to put your boxers through the x-ray machine. :P
I have this theory that the continued "attacks" on planes are all part of some terrorist mastermind's Crowley-esque terror campaign. This dude realized that he didn't have the resources to carry out a large-scale attack, but that inconveniencing millions of people every single day is just as good as killing a handful of people once.
That or they figured that the TSA would respond in the same way to this as with Richard Reid. Briefs are banned on flights and now you have to put your boxers through the x-ray machine. :P
The Dutch minister stated that there is new software in development that would automate the analysis of the body scans and no one would actually see the pictures unless an alarm went off.
Consider it similar to the good ol' scans that beep at metal, only these scans are more sophisticated.
If that goes through and it is just as effective as an X-Ray is at detecting metal and it means we won't have to take off our shoes etc then I'm all for it.
The Dutch minister stated that there is new software in development that would automate the analysis of the body scans and no one would actually see the pictures unless an alarm went off.
Consider it similar to the good ol' scans that beep at metal, only these scans are more sophisticated.
If that goes through and it is just as effective as an X-Ray is at detecting metal and it means we won't have to take off our shoes etc then I'm all for it.
If there is software that does this, I'm willing to bet that they can localize the interesting area for the picture as well. That would be great.
When a dude with a bomb enters an airport the system has already failed and that's not really the TSA's fault. Otherwise, yeah they should probably exist. Just not with all the idiotic regulations that we have which do nothing to make people more safe just more annoyed. Airports, train stations, ports et. al. need some form of security personnel and having them be feds rather than rentacops, or putting more of a burden on local police, doesn't seem like that horrible of an idea.
This.
We need the TSA.
We just need them to not be fucking retarded.
No we don't.
We had plenty of success without them for about 40 years previous to 2001. Make the airlines check for box cutters. Problem solved.
Alternately, your odds of being on a hijacked plane (assuming you are flying) are something like 1 in 10,000,000. Nate Silver did the math recently.
1 in 10,000,000 per what?
Per plane in service, per departing flight....
Also, sadly, the security theatre people are right - a noticeable reduction in airport security without a consequential massive campaign about how it's better then ever and some high profile arrests probably is likely to cause a spike in attempted terror attacks from the "door's open boys!" idiot crowd.
The Dutch minister stated that there is new software in development that would automate the analysis of the body scans and no one would actually see the pictures unless an alarm went off.
Consider it similar to the good ol' scans that beep at metal, only these scans are more sophisticated.
If that goes through and it is just as effective as an X-Ray is at detecting metal and it means we won't have to take off our shoes etc then I'm all for it.
I'll give you a hint: The graphic on that story is a bottle of snake oil.
Now, I would call such software theoretically possible. But if it is scanning for ANYTHING that would be considered a threat I find it much more likely that it will just do false positive after false positive all day long, and woe to the security person that doesn't check every single one! But I find it more likely that it doesn't do a thing.
I have this theory that the continued "attacks" on planes are all part of some terrorist mastermind's Crowley-esque terror campaign. This dude realized that he didn't have the resources to carry out a large-scale attack, but that inconveniencing millions of people every single day is just as good as killing a handful of people once.
When a dude with a bomb enters an airport the system has already failed and that's not really the TSA's fault. Otherwise, yeah they should probably exist. Just not with all the idiotic regulations that we have which do nothing to make people more safe just more annoyed. Airports, train stations, ports et. al. need some form of security personnel and having them be feds rather than rentacops, or putting more of a burden on local police, doesn't seem like that horrible of an idea.
This.
We need the TSA.
We just need them to not be fucking retarded.
No we don't.
We had plenty of success without them for about 40 years previous to 2001. Make the airlines check for box cutters. Problem solved.
Why do you feel that rentacops following varying standards dependent upon the airport they're working in is better than a TSA stripped of the idiotic regulations?
The stupidest part of the no fly list is people that share common names. There was a big article on CNN a few months ago about a 7 year old boy sharing the same name as a suspected terrorist who is on the list and the parents still haven't been able to get the boy off the list.
that plus simply changing your legal name will let you fly
Sam on
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
The stupidest part of the no fly list is people that share common names. There was a big article on CNN a few months ago about a 7 year old boy sharing the same name as a suspected terrorist who is on the list and the parents still haven't been able to get the boy off the list.
that plus simply changing your legal name will let you fly
look up how much explosive power a standard lithium laptop battery has
hint: a lot
I know. Why terrorists haven't tried this yet I do not know.
Because successfully pulling off a terrorist attack involves more than just a dude with an idea somewhere. Hell, wasn't there an SE thread where people came up with the worst possible terrorist attack scenario completely fucking over large swathes of the US which came up with some rather simple but horrific possibilities?
I don't know what the guys in SE said, but I really don't understand why no one's gone after an LPG tanker yet. Run that big boy aground in San Fran Harbor and you kill a fuckload of people. Do it right, and no one even realizes it was a terrorist attack until you take credit.
The thing that sort of still amazes me is how wet the bed terrified the media has become by a failed attack. Apparently the President needed to rush back to Washington and do... something? And if he doesn't show the American people he has responded forcefully to this, Democrats are doomed in 2010? Washington really is a pocket universe.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
The thing that sort of still amazes me is how wet the bed terrified the media has become by a failed attack. Apparently the President needed to rush back to Washington and do... something? And if he doesn't show the American people he has responded forcefully to this, Democrats are doomed in 2010? Washington really is a pocket universe.
It's the only part of America where the terrorists actually did win.
The thing that sort of still amazes me is how wet the bed terrified the media has become by a failed attack. Apparently the President needed to rush back to Washington and do... something? And if he doesn't show the American people he has responded forcefully to this, Democrats are doomed in 2010? Washington really is a pocket universe.
It's the only part of America where the terrorists actually did win.
Well, it's not the only part, there are major news bureau in New York and Atlanta, after all.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
When a dude with a bomb enters an airport the system has already failed and that's not really the TSA's fault. Otherwise, yeah they should probably exist. Just not with all the idiotic regulations that we have which do nothing to make people more safe just more annoyed. Airports, train stations, ports et. al. need some form of security personnel and having them be feds rather than rentacops, or putting more of a burden on local police, doesn't seem like that horrible of an idea.
This.
We need the TSA.
We just need them to not be fucking retarded.
No we don't.
We had plenty of success without them for about 40 years previous to 2001. Make the airlines check for box cutters. Problem solved.
Why do you feel that rentacops following varying standards dependent upon the airport they're working in is better than a TSA stripped of the idiotic regulations?
the ENTIRE POINT of the TSA is to enforce idiotic regulations. That is it's only power, and the sole reason for its existence. If you strip the TSA of idiotic regulations, it will cease to exist.
When a dude with a bomb enters an airport the system has already failed and that's not really the TSA's fault. Otherwise, yeah they should probably exist. Just not with all the idiotic regulations that we have which do nothing to make people more safe just more annoyed. Airports, train stations, ports et. al. need some form of security personnel and having them be feds rather than rentacops, or putting more of a burden on local police, doesn't seem like that horrible of an idea.
This.
We need the TSA.
We just need them to not be fucking retarded.
No we don't.
We had plenty of success without them for about 40 years previous to 2001. Make the airlines check for box cutters. Problem solved.
Why do you feel that rentacops following varying standards dependent upon the airport they're working in is better than a TSA stripped of the idiotic regulations?
the ENTIRE POINT of the TSA is to enforce idiotic regulations. That is it's only power, and the sole reason for its existence. If you strip the TSA of idiotic regulations, it will cease to exist.
Or they become the equivalent to what existed in 2000 but with Federal authority and jurisdiction rather than ending past the Cinnabon.
Posts
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Supposedly the TSA is now leaving the "no getting up or having anything in your lap in the last hour" rules up to the flight crew's discretion, according to a news article I read in the morning paper (they cited an anonymous source in the TSA). I'm willing to bet that most of these new restrictions will be gone before the end of January.
I guess I'll find out soon though; I fly back home tonight and am already preparing for an extra hour of bullshit.
Seems to me that in nearly every incident, the government had information it could have or should have acted on, but didn't. So instead of acting on the information it has, the gov institutes these inane regulations so as to give the appearance of "doing something", regardless of how useless that something is.
As for profiling, there are Muslims of every ethnicity, so I don't know how that's supposed to help. If they're going off names... look up the names that are already on the damn watch list!
:rotate:
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Such lists seem to be designed as an end run around due process. They restrict people's rights extrajudicially and without giving the effected people any recourse. Hell, no one even knows how people get on the list, or whether you can actually get your name removed.
If an American citizen is supporting terrorism, charge them with a crime. If someone here on a visa is a threat, kick them out. And we can certainly ban dangerous foreigners from travelling to the US.
But this idea of secret lists strikes me as un-American.
Rigorous Scholarship
It's as American as Joe McCarthy. Still stupid, though.
He was really tall, and so wanted an aisle seat.
The purpose of the watch list was to inconvenience Muslims and the political enemies of the Bush Administration.
I have to say, Modern Man, that I agree with this 100%.
It gets better when you apply logic to it. The idea of a No Fly List makes no sense, because unless every single potential terrorist is on it it's pointless. Either your security is good enough to keep a bomb (or other weapon) off the plane, or it isn't. If it is, then Osama Bin Laden himself should be able to get on a flight down to Tampa. If it isn't, then your list is pointless if you run into a single terrorist you haven't identified yet (or a known one with a bogus identity).
At best, the people on the NFL should be on a simple watch list, and flagged for additional screening. The idea that somebody can be too dangerous to be allowed to board a plane, even after you've identified them and run them through a security screening, doesn't say much about your security screening process.
They do at least have a process to get you a special ID card that basically says "I'm not the bad one."
Still silly as all fuck, though.
BUT, in addition to names it checks things like social security numbers, etc. I don't really have more details because when I worked at that job it was all checked automatically and I NEVER saw an application denied for that reason.
Why argue devil's advocate for a completely useless thing?
The No-Fly list doesn't work. At all, ever. It never has and it never will. So arguing the merits doesn't really need to pass Go. Go being in this case "It is completely useless".
Here's how it works:
You buy a bunch of stuff on a credit card (department store cards are good for this). You pay off the credit card with your dirty money. You then return the merchandise and get clean money in exchange, either right then and there or through the mail a few weeks later since you have a negative balance.
That or they figured that the TSA would respond in the same way to this as with Richard Reid. Briefs are banned on flights and now you have to put your boxers through the x-ray machine. :P
That... that would be awesome.
The Dutch minister stated that there is new software in development that would automate the analysis of the body scans and no one would actually see the pictures unless an alarm went off.
Consider it similar to the good ol' scans that beep at metal, only these scans are more sophisticated.
If that goes through and it is just as effective as an X-Ray is at detecting metal and it means we won't have to take off our shoes etc then I'm all for it.
If there is software that does this, I'm willing to bet that they can localize the interesting area for the picture as well. That would be great.
No we don't.
We had plenty of success without them for about 40 years previous to 2001. Make the airlines check for box cutters. Problem solved.
1 in 10,000,000 per what?
Per plane in service, per departing flight....
Also, sadly, the security theatre people are right - a noticeable reduction in airport security without a consequential massive campaign about how it's better then ever and some high profile arrests probably is likely to cause a spike in attempted terror attacks from the "door's open boys!" idiot crowd.
Then he did it wrong.
Your odds vary wildly depending on where you take off from and where your destination is.
I'm going to be that software is just as effective as the Pentagon's software for detecting secret Al Qaeda messages in Al Jezeera broadcasts.
I'll give you a hint: The graphic on that story is a bottle of snake oil.
Now, I would call such software theoretically possible. But if it is scanning for ANYTHING that would be considered a threat I find it much more likely that it will just do false positive after false positive all day long, and woe to the security person that doesn't check every single one! But I find it more likely that it doesn't do a thing.
Yeah, it really reminds me of Good Omens.
"I tempted a priest."
"Well, I designed the M25."
Why do you feel that rentacops following varying standards dependent upon the airport they're working in is better than a TSA stripped of the idiotic regulations?
that plus simply changing your legal name will let you fly
I don't know what the guys in SE said, but I really don't understand why no one's gone after an LPG tanker yet. Run that big boy aground in San Fran Harbor and you kill a fuckload of people. Do it right, and no one even realizes it was a terrorist attack until you take credit.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I think that's the best solution for anything security related.
It's the only part of America where the terrorists actually did win.
Well, it's not the only part, there are major news bureau in New York and Atlanta, after all.
the ENTIRE POINT of the TSA is to enforce idiotic regulations. That is it's only power, and the sole reason for its existence. If you strip the TSA of idiotic regulations, it will cease to exist.
Or they become the equivalent to what existed in 2000 but with Federal authority and jurisdiction rather than ending past the Cinnabon.