Arrrgh level TENNNNN why are you so elusive. At this rate, I might get bars for reals before I get my bars in this freaking game.
Also: when I do get my bars for reals, I am so building your popcorn bomb, TC.
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Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
It took me a little bit to get my tactical feet back in this, but I got to Carentan and I'm loving the game again. I seem to remember having a lot more trouble with stopping that patrol at the end of mission 2 last time, and also with the second part of Carentan. Though I though I did it wrong last time I tried playing it - I didn't use mines. I stopped the ptrol dead with mines and it was really easy. Hopefully mines make defending Carentan a bit less of a headache.
So I purchased Company of Heroes & the first expansion a couple weeks back, and I have to say:
I'm loving this game. Alot.
There's a reason that this game is the best reviewed game of all time, according to Gamerankings.com. For me, the games are exciting. Anxiety-inducing, even. Watching my Shermans try and take down a retreating Tiger, or hoping one of my Howitzer barrage shells hits a Grenadier squad, or trying a desperate gambit flanking of an MG nest with an engineer pyro.
What I really enjoy about this game, though, is that it lets me really exercise that strategy side of my brain. This game definitely rewards sheer strategic skill, as well as simple arcane knowledge. And tactics too! I'm getting to the point where I feel I can predict my enemy's movements and understand his choices - and react accordingly. And my reactions are getting better on a micro tactical level, too.
I've played 20 or 30 multiplayer games so far, and am absolutely loving it. The matchmaking system seems pretty good. It's putting me up against players at around my skill level, allowing me to slowly learn - while not getting my face stomped in over and over again. I'm at level 6 now, and got a 3 streak win last night (the light before I had a 3 streak loss ).
Anyway, I'm surprised that there isn't more talk about this game. I haven't had this much fun playing a strategy game since Age of Kings back in 2001 when I was 15 years old.
Nah, we talked about it a lot even after that, but I think everyone moved on to other things eventually.
Shhh... don't tell anyone, but I bought Tales of Valor. Only going to run through the single player stuff for old times' sake (the expansion cost a few dollars) but it's the first time I've played since the tournament.
the reason there's not more talk is that the expansion basically killed the game.
sorry, brutally fucking murdered it.
the two new factions gutted everything that was fun about the original factions, forced drastic changes, and ruined IMO the greatest RTS ever made.
I don't understand... The British and the Panzer Elite were added, and they don't seem particularly terrible or anything. They seem to fit in pretty well with the game, at least from my perspective.
Then again, I haven't really had much playtime as the British, and have only played against the PE.
Explain further. It still seems like a great game.
Eh it's still fun (if it wasn't fun I wouldn't still play it and make shoutcasts for it), but the expansion made it worse in every way.
The Panzer Elite have basically one infantry unit with only three dudes in the squad, which means each guy is an ubermensch and it comes down to luck whether or not a strafing run takes out 8 of them or an artillery shell wipes out two squads. Meanwhile their vehicles like the Armored Car and the Marder III are basically glass cannons that either destroy you or get destroyed, similarly turning it into a "who gets lucky" matchup half the time instead of something more reasonable where you have time when one of your squads is under attack to pull back or keep fighting. The fallschirmjaegers are the same thing; once they open up, you have to retreat immediately or everyone will die. It just removes the margin for error and makes everything 100% win or lose when fighting them, cutting out a lot of the macro and focusing the game more on the mistakes you make. Most people don't really mind the PE, though, and in fact some pros enjoy them quite a bit. It's the British people have a problem with.
The British turn the whole dynamic game focused on cutting off resources, flanking the enemy, and attacking all parts of the map into a slog against an entrenched, fortified position that doesn't move, doesn't change, and takes a large amount of manpower and willpower to attack. You can't cut them off because they park their truck on the resources they need and get a free OP, you can't flank because they're designed to be surrounded in the first place, and you basically have to just throw yourself against whatever defense they can set up as long as they're smart enough to set it up somewhere that you have to fight over. The design of the British mostly forces them to turtle up, which is not fun for them and which is definitely not fun for the person attacking. They have basically no mobile AT until the Firefly, which is way too late to make a difference, they have no mobile suppression squads unless they buy a commando HQ glider (HAHAHA) and even their normal infantry can't flank or anything unless a lieutenant follows them around.
This means the British options are limited to bunkering down, sending small forays out every once in a while, and either building enough emplacements to hold off the enemy or using artillery emplacements to pummel the opponent. In any case it's not fun to fight them.
Both the Panzer Elite and the British basically only have 1 good doctrine each (PE arguably have two), which really cuts down on the variety when you fight them or fight as them. I mean sure you don't see much Armor Company from Americans, but you will NEVER see Scorched Earth or Royal Engineers from anyone who knows a damn thing about the game. Plus the British and the Panzer Elite are really limited in terms of useful units (and the British are even limited in terms of overall units; they have like NOTHING to build!). The PE don't bother with muni HTs, scout cars, bergetigers, or anything, which means you really only see IHTs, Mortar HTs, ACs, Marders, and the occasional PZ IV when you fight them. The rest of the time it's just PGren city. At least Americans have three different squads of infantry to choose from when they blob.
Then Tales of Valor came out and made everything bullshit times 100. Kangaroo Carriers are just fucking stupid, the Geschutzwagen is broken, T-17s were overpowered as hell for a while and are still dumb, and the M10 cannot be uncloaked by anything.
Fortunately, US/Wehr matches are pretty balanced and enjoyable. They did make some changes to them so that Wehr could take on Brits and US could take on PE, but it was mostly changing around Brits and PE themselves. Now they're semi-neutered visages of their former glory. After past patches of crazy powerful units, I don't give a fuck about them now.
Fortunately, US/Wehr matches are pretty balanced and enjoyable.
There's still some significant problems. US basically HAS to win with rifle spam w/ WSC support. The invisible, bugged Pak means Motor Pools and Tank Depots are wastes of resources.
Rifles, however, are doing too much damage to MG42s when they're suppressed. This makes the first 25% of the game insanely difficult for Wher on certain maps, and the last 75% of the game insanely difficult for US on certain maps.
my inner history buff likes the British too much although I know in my heart of hearts they're an abomination in terms of gameplay. I would have bought the expansion if the Brits were symmetrically designed to the US and Wehr (designated rifle unit, MG unit, sniper, etc). then again, I haven't played this since the latest expansion came out (which looked incredibly lame, I'm sorry to say).
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Fortunately, US/Wehr matches are pretty balanced and enjoyable.
There's still some significant problems. US basically HAS to win with rifle spam w/ WSC support. The invisible, bugged Pak means Motor Pools and Tank Depots are wastes of resources.
Rifles, however, are doing too much damage to MG42s when they're suppressed. This makes the first 25% of the game insanely difficult for Wher on certain maps, and the last 75% of the game insanely difficult for US on certain maps.
I knew you were going to chime in.
It does change the meta-game somewhat with the Pak situation, but it's so minor and avoidable that the other huge changes (MG42 switching windows, supply yard rifle vet, etc) more than account for that problem.
Just bought the complete pack off of steam and am really looking forward to playing through all the single player campaigns. I actually played through about half of the original campaign a long time ago and then lost my disc.
I've been messing with Panzer Elite in 1v1 to learn the ropes with them, not played too much but against the newbs I have been up against the following build has worked! Perhaps you can give me some pointers to improve my strategy! This is with Luftwaffe of course.
Start would be Ketten to make two kettens (to get rapid map control advantage as soon as possible), followed by two storm grenadiers - first would move to guard a critical location, second would build the mortar halftrack building and then the critical armored car building! The kettens go around stealth capping and camouing when they come under fire and hiding until the enemy gets bored and leaves while my storm grenadiers just chill out and dissuade any decap attempts.
As soon as the armored car building goes up I pump out a assault grenadier squad followed by an armored car, I'd burn my rapidly accumulating manpower and munitions on a luftwaffe squad and a set of assault rifles for one of my lucky grenadier squads.
1-2 armored cars go gib some infantry supported by the assault grenadiers and a mortar halftrack, keeping the enemy at arms length with the assault grenadiers and punishing them with the armored cars, repairs are taken car of by the luftwaffe squad who also pick up any BARs that get dropped and I butterfly mine chokepoints, tank hunter grenadiers follow soon after to take car of the opponents light tanks and generally by then I've won if my kettens have stayed alive to keep decapping!
If the game goes on longer than this I just tech to the panzer battlegroup and grab the infantry support tanks, it's pretty fun to play and it hides the weakness of the storm grenadiers early by avoiding engagements full stop until you've got a full arsenal of assault rifles, you'll have plenty of ammo for upgrades and butterfly bombs but you'll be starved for fuel so fuel points take priority. Anyone got any thoughts on easily improving this strategy? Any glaring weaknesses you can spot?
With 2 Kettenkrads and one Panzer Grenadier squad that isn't occupied building stuff, good players are going to control far more of the map than you and easily cut you off. One Rifleman squad can push off your Grenadiers unless you've got a building to hide in, and one plus an Engineer squad or two Riflemen or a Jeep or two Engineers or anything can push you off no matter what. This means that they're going to cut you off, and most likely they'll be able to cap a lot of stuff too, because although cloaked Kettens are annoying they'll be able to do enough damage to them or destroy them if they're half decent, unless you retreat super early in which case you won't get any capping done.
Basically you need much more firepower on the field in between the start of the game and the point at which you hit T3 (the Armored Car building). Otherwise good players are going to easily outfight and outtech you and there will be an M8 waiting for your Armored Cars.
I've been messing with Panzer Elite in 1v1 to learn the ropes with them, not played too much but against the newbs I have been up against the following build has worked! Perhaps you can give me some pointers to improve my strategy! This is with Luftwaffe of course.
Start would be Ketten to make two kettens (to get rapid map control advantage as soon as possible), followed by two storm grenadiers - first would move to guard a critical location, second would build the mortar halftrack building and then the critical armored car building! The kettens go around stealth capping and camouing when they come under fire and hiding until the enemy gets bored and leaves while my storm grenadiers just chill out and dissuade any decap attempts.
As soon as the armored car building goes up I pump out a assault grenadier squad followed by an armored car, I'd burn my rapidly accumulating manpower and munitions on a luftwaffe squad and a set of assault rifles for one of my lucky grenadier squads.
The US player will likely be using riflemen, and capping very quickly. The PE do not cap quickly. Also, when you get into an engagement, make sure you can win it or else fall back. (This also holds true for your opponent.) You need to decide whether or not to cap or engage with all your PGs simultaneously. Usually, if all your forces are nearby then put them into the fight.
1-2 armored cars go gib some infantry supported by the assault grenadiers and a mortar halftrack, keeping the enemy at arms length with the assault grenadiers and punishing them with the armored cars, repairs are taken car of by the luftwaffe squad who also pick up any BARs that get dropped and I butterfly mine chokepoints, tank hunter grenadiers follow soon after to take car of the opponents light tanks and generally by then I've won if my kettens have stayed alive to keep decapping!
Anything that will mess up riflemen is good, but ACs are still vulnerable. The enemy will either go BARs, grenades, or M8. I would not engage with just one AC, but two at once can end a rifle squad before they do significant damage. The PE is not-ironically all about the fast, overwhelming strikes which are micro heavy.
If the game goes on longer than this I just tech to the panzer battlegroup and grab the infantry support tanks, it's pretty fun to play and it hides the weakness of the storm grenadiers early by avoiding engagements full stop until you've got a full arsenal of assault rifles, you'll have plenty of ammo for upgrades and butterfly bombs but you'll be starved for fuel so fuel points take priority.
ISTs might be good first instead of ACs if the enemy does not have access to early AT (if he goes BARs or if you were good in cutting off his fuel). Obviously, he will get paratroopers or Rangers to counter your ACs or Marders/ATHTs you built to counter the M8s. At this point, you can get MP44s to counter those guys.
It all comes down to your micro. Expect the enemy to go to motor pool first to counter your ACs, then back-tech to WSC for the sniper and MG. These can seriously ruin your day if you blob your forces (see also: strafing run) so be sure to avoid doing that. Attack a single target from multiple directions and focus fire. The US/PE game is all about attrition.
With 2 Kettenkrads and one Panzer Grenadier squad that isn't occupied building stuff, good players are going to control far more of the map than you and easily cut you off. One Rifleman squad can push off your Grenadiers unless you've got a building to hide in, and one plus an Engineer squad or two Riflemen or a Jeep or two Engineers or anything can push you off no matter what. This means that they're going to cut you off, and most likely they'll be able to cap a lot of stuff too, because although cloaked Kettens are annoying they'll be able to do enough damage to them or destroy them if they're half decent, unless you retreat super early in which case you won't get any capping done.
Basically you need much more firepower on the field in between the start of the game and the point at which you hit T3 (the Armored Car building). Otherwise good players are going to easily outfight and outtech you and there will be an M8 waiting for your Armored Cars.
What might you recommend? Delaying the tech for a third rifleman squad? It's something I've used once or twice and it's been fine but it puts a damper on the speed of the tech, using only two kettens/two rifles I can be pumping out an assault rifle squad from base at 3:45~ish as well as upgrading one of my squads with the assault rifles.
Obviously using this strategy you don't really have a frontline and you're on the uneven foot when it comes to critical point holding but the two assault rifle squads absolutely make a mess of anything the opponent is fielding at the time with the exception of the weapon support stuff, which is why the armored car follows soon after. I willingly give up some of the map for the quick tech and the two assault rifles/armored car/mortar halftrack generally allow me to put a huge dent in the allied offensive. Then it's just a matter of taking over map control, calling in the luftwaffe squads and capitalizing on the army and map control advantages, of course this is assuming best case scenario which is not always the case!
One of the main reasons I'm finding the strat so fun as it allows you to get past the iffy early game of panzers which can often be down to luck if both sides are in cover and puts the american/brit on the wrong foot, forcing them to react rather than let myself constantly scramble for the latest hard counter to them.
Edit: @Veritas (in regards to war of attrition) Oh absolutely, I've found myself pulling back my grenadiers if the fight is iffy because it's just not worth the losses, same for the kettens. The first 4 and a half minutes are all about targets of opportunity and keeping the rifles at arms length until the cavalry arrives. I've only been using the strat maybe 6-7 games so far but I've never really found myself needing to make more than two armored cars total in a game, they are their to snipe at the injured rifles and enact guerilla warfare, it's the ISTs and Marders that come out later that do the strenuous lifting.
You won't be able to tech up so fast to the first Assault Grenadier squad once you start facing better players; they're going to cut you off and kill or chase away your Kettenkrads from any important points, especially +16 fuel. 2 Kettenkrads is generally not the best option; you just lose so much firepower that you can't even hope to win any engagements for a while. Unless you can keep a steady fuel supply or keep your opponent cut off, it won't happen, and there's no way you can do both with only 1 PG squad, because Engineers will easily keep your Kettenkrad away. I'd replace Ketten #2 with a PG squad and work on keeping them cut off, because as soon as they get an M8 you're in pretty big trouble.
Fortunately, US/Wehr matches are pretty balanced and enjoyable.
There's still some significant problems. US basically HAS to win with rifle spam w/ WSC support. The invisible, bugged Pak means Motor Pools and Tank Depots are wastes of resources.
Rifles, however, are doing too much damage to MG42s when they're suppressed. This makes the first 25% of the game insanely difficult for Wher on certain maps, and the last 75% of the game insanely difficult for US on certain maps.
I knew you were going to chime in.
It does change the meta-game somewhat with the Pak situation, but it's so minor and avoidable that the other huge changes (MG42 switching windows, supply yard rifle vet, etc) more than account for that problem.
You're really going to try to claim Paks 2-shotting M8s is minor? I can't tell if you're trolling or if you just got into this game a few patches ago.
I'm going to clue you in on a little secret: the Motor Pool wasn't always useless, and US gameplay used to involve more than rifle spam.
With the bugged Pak no one goes M8 unless they know the opponent skipped T2 or they see enough manpower in T1 that they can be sure the Pak is going to be a while. No one tries playing chicken with an invisible unit with a high ROF, 100% accuracy, and 2-shot kills.
With the bugged Pak a US player has to be on his 100% A-game from game start and shut the game out ASAP. As soon as the Wher player has enough time to move past T2 to either Pumas or T4 - the US player has no real way to counter it thanks to the bugged Pak invalidating Motor Pool and Tank Depot. The game has to end before that point, or the US player must have a huge advantage (resources for calliope, on-map howitzer, or frequent off-map/strafes) to maintain the win.
Some very good points Tycho, sacrificed a bit of speed but the third squad of panzers helps me out mid game, we'll see how this continues to go with me playing the weakest faction in the game!
I think the secret to playing PG is playing dirty. You HAVE plenty of tricks. Thing is, those tricks aren't what you're used to playing with from the other factions.
And no, I'm not talking about booby traps. Forget them, they don't work on anyone rank 8 or above (and that's counting that this rank 8 is like the old rank 5).
Your G43 slow ability can do some amazing things. You should always have 1-2 G43 squads in your ranks. I suggest 1 if you're using ACs and 2 if you're going for 4-man assault squads.
You should drill it into yourself that ANY TIME you get a retreat, you kill a squad. Period. If you know you're going to win a battle - focus fire on a unit and slow him. Slow him once if you have an AC to chase it down, slow him twice if you're relying on your assault squads to chase them.
If you keep this in mind, and follow through with it every battle, then the enemy is going to lose a squad every battle. This is critical, and I've seen great PE players really carry this strategy home to the point that I refused to enter battle with his blob anymore and split my forces way more than usual - retreating the moment they got in range.
Once mid game hits, you have an advantage and he knows it. Your infantry (possibly 1 AC) blob is outmatching his rifle blob, which is trying to play catch-up all game in terms of critical mass. Assuming he's held onto his fuel, he's going to try for an M8. This is why you MUST get yourself an AT HT. Not just one, either. 2, 3, sometimes 4 if the enemy really loves his M8s. Keep pumping the damn things out. Aim to have X+1 AT HTs, where X is the number of M8s he has on the field.
Edit: Nevermind, after re-reading his post, I realized that arguing with TD here is pointless, because he's right and no one of moderate or higher skill at this game will advocate the use of Motor Pool or TD against T2 Wher.
Fixed that up for you, but you can throw up more strawmen if you want.
I love PE luftwaffe for their awesome voices but I'm absolutely terrible at it and my poor grens get sniped to death.
I can think of a lot better ways to spend manpower than Luft, to be honest.
And yes, snipers are a big problem for PE, especially when used with AT guns and a rifle screen. Your best bet against snipers or the afore-mentioned US combined arms is to pull the enemy out. AT guns and snipers do best at protracted long range encounters. You need to pull them out into mid-field, avoid casualties, then charge in with everything you've got.
If you do it moderately well, you'll take the AT guns.
If you do it extremely well, you'll have your AC hot keyed and have it charge in the moment the AC guns pack up to pull back - over driving past the AT guns (let your infantry clear them) and after the retreating sniper. Don't be afraid to go into the base. Just make sure that sniper dies.
You can lay a Teller mine right in front of the AT gun if you want and let them recrew it. With any luck you'll take out not just the gun but the squad that just recrewed it.
What's your beef with the luftwaffe squad? 260 man power for advanced repair and if you keep them alive a repository for your opponents BARs and what not turn them into a pretty hardy combat squad late game if you take def vet.
Edit: Nevermind, after re-reading his post, I realized that arguing with TD here is pointless, because he's right and no one of moderate or higher skill at this game will advocate the use of Motor Pool or TD against T2 Wher.
Fixed that up for you, but you can throw up more strawmen if you want.
I originally commented on your use of ad hom (and removed it, because you've been fighting this fight for over a year now so why bother) but could you point out where I used the strawman argument?
You can lay a Teller mine right in front of the AT gun if you want and let them recrew it. With any luck you'll take out not just the gun but the squad that just recrewed it.
I think you can remove the "With any luck" part. I'm fairly certain a teller mine is an insta gib on an AT gun.
And yeah, I love that trick. So glorious when I nail a squad or two with it, so horrific when it's me doing the crewing
What's your beef with the luftwaffe squad? 260 man power for advanced repair and if you keep them alive a repository for your opponents BARs and what not turn them into a pretty hardy combat squad late game if you take def vet.
They're XP feeding machines for the enemy with their ultra low HP, weak weapons, and paper armor. And for 5 manpower less you could have popped out a 3 or 4 man PG squad.
Now... the 600 manpower tank on the TD side (whose name escapes me at the moment). That's a worthy investment of manpower. Coupled with an AT HT and you've got a combo that crushes M8s and Shermans equally, while not having the paper thin armor and pathetic HP of an 80 fuel Marder 3 (counting upgrade).
I originally commented on your use of ad hom (and removed it, because you've been fighting this fight for over a year now so why bother) but could you point out where I used the strawman argument?
Really? I've been saying that the bugged Pak has completely thrown US vs Wher mid to late game balance out the window for over a year? While I appreciate you thinking I'm some kind of divine prophet who guessed at bugs Relic would implement, I'm afraid you're wrong. And I'm afraid that, despite being wrong, you threw up another strawman in the process.
A strawman, by the way, is when you refuse to negate an opposing point or supportyour own points and, instead, bring up tangential items. In your case the tangents you bring up are completely fictitious. The result is that you're not only pretty bad at discussing balance logically - you fail pretty hard at discussing it illogically, too.
The Hetzer is pretty nice because it leaves your fuel untouched and because it's the only goddamn tank they have unless you tech up to a Panther Battle Group or something. It can cloak basically anywhere which is pretty hilarious; it basically always penetrates when it shoots out of cloak which means as long as you remember to uncloak it (aka allow it to turn) the enemy Sherman is toast.
Not to mention Teller Mines, better AP rounds, double AT efforts, Tank Awareness... Tank Hunters is such an awesome doctrine. Even if Luftwaffe and Scorched Earth didn't suck Tank Hunters would be awesome.
The Hetzer is pretty nice because it leaves your fuel untouched and because it's the only goddamn tank they have unless you tech up to a Panther Battle Group or something. It can cloak basically anywhere which is pretty hilarious; it basically always penetrates when it shoots out of cloak which means as long as you remember to uncloak it (aka allow it to turn) the enemy Sherman is toast.
Not to mention Teller Mines, better AP rounds, double AT efforts, Tank Awareness... Tank Hunters is such an awesome doctrine. Even if Luftwaffe and Scorched Earth didn't suck Tank Hunters would be awesome.
The Panther Battle Group usually surprises me in long games against the PE. Sure takes a while to get it, but it's rather powerful if I'm not ready with AT. Since they come out together, the PE player is more prone to use them in the same fight. That along with any remaining units can seriously cut through defenses.
Arrrgh level TENNNNN why are you so elusive. At this rate, I might get bars for reals before I get my bars in this freaking game.
Ironically, this was kind of my "whatever" account name too. Tried out some crazy stuff, new strategies, etc. Also lost a bunch of games instantly because I went link-dead when my connection wasn't so hot... probably pissed off my teammates.
It isn't 1v1 so it's really a meh victory (and a pyrrhic victory) but I'll take what I can get.
Stonewall is like Survival. You and some mates hold out against enemy attacks. Stupid.
Assault is like DoTA in which you control one hero and go up against trash mobs and other heroes from other team. Even stupider.
Panzerkrieg you each control one tank, upgrade it and kill enemy tanks and capture the VPs. Awesome.
Unfortunately though not many play Panzer Krieg and isn't really varied. Still, I enjoyed it with a mate.
The other 2 operations are terrible however.
The Hetzer is pretty nice because it leaves your fuel untouched and because it's the only goddamn tank they have unless you tech up to a Panther Battle Group or something. It can cloak basically anywhere which is pretty hilarious; it basically always penetrates when it shoots out of cloak which means as long as you remember to uncloak it (aka allow it to turn) the enemy Sherman is toast.
Not to mention Teller Mines, better AP rounds, double AT efforts, Tank Awareness... Tank Hunters is such an awesome doctrine. Even if Luftwaffe and Scorched Earth didn't suck Tank Hunters would be awesome.
I used to be afraid to pull out hetzers because of airborne blobs. Now that I've started fighting dirty with PE, I don't worry about it so much. US players tend to get VERY demotivated when, every battle, you double slow a para squad, wipe it out, and steal a RR or two.
Which brings me to another entry in my dirty PE chapter. In games that last a while I find that, as PE, I have no way to spend munitions. Tread breaker isn't exactly bank-breaking and I find my hetzers do a fine job of cleaning up disabled Shermans without using AT nades. This appears to be a opportunity looking for a problem. That problem is ranger and paratrooper spam, and the solution is goliaths.
Nothing spells fun like sending a piece of green cover with a goliath, sending in a hetzer from an odd angle, getting the elite blob to chase, and gibbing them all into a bunch of gooey bits.
It isn't 1v1 so it's really a meh victory (and a pyrrhic victory) but I'll take what I can get.
Finishing a game with a 2v2 PUGer without raging at his stupidity and callioping his base is a victory. Finishing so many games with those incompetent twats that you got to level 10 is worthy of an Internet Medal of Honor.
I haven't played a 2v2 with a stranger since 2v2 arranged team automatch was released. I have baaad memories of 2v2 (which I barely played before either) but apparently Kodachrome played LOTS of 2v2 games so I guess if I had played enough I would have had him on my team sometimes. That would have been awesome.
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Also: when I do get my bars for reals, I am so building your popcorn bomb, TC.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
I'm loving this game. Alot.
There's a reason that this game is the best reviewed game of all time, according to Gamerankings.com. For me, the games are exciting. Anxiety-inducing, even. Watching my Shermans try and take down a retreating Tiger, or hoping one of my Howitzer barrage shells hits a Grenadier squad, or trying a desperate gambit flanking of an MG nest with an engineer pyro.
What I really enjoy about this game, though, is that it lets me really exercise that strategy side of my brain. This game definitely rewards sheer strategic skill, as well as simple arcane knowledge. And tactics too! I'm getting to the point where I feel I can predict my enemy's movements and understand his choices - and react accordingly. And my reactions are getting better on a micro tactical level, too.
I've played 20 or 30 multiplayer games so far, and am absolutely loving it. The matchmaking system seems pretty good. It's putting me up against players at around my skill level, allowing me to slowly learn - while not getting my face stomped in over and over again. I'm at level 6 now, and got a 3 streak win last night (the light before I had a 3 streak loss
Anyway, I'm surprised that there isn't more talk about this game. I haven't had this much fun playing a strategy game since Age of Kings back in 2001 when I was 15 years old.
sorry, brutally fucking murdered it.
the two new factions gutted everything that was fun about the original factions, forced drastic changes, and ruined IMO the greatest RTS ever made.
Shhh... don't tell anyone, but I bought Tales of Valor. Only going to run through the single player stuff for old times' sake (the expansion cost a few dollars) but it's the first time I've played since the tournament.
I don't understand... The British and the Panzer Elite were added, and they don't seem particularly terrible or anything. They seem to fit in pretty well with the game, at least from my perspective.
Then again, I haven't really had much playtime as the British, and have only played against the PE.
Explain further. It still seems like a great game.
The Panzer Elite have basically one infantry unit with only three dudes in the squad, which means each guy is an ubermensch and it comes down to luck whether or not a strafing run takes out 8 of them or an artillery shell wipes out two squads. Meanwhile their vehicles like the Armored Car and the Marder III are basically glass cannons that either destroy you or get destroyed, similarly turning it into a "who gets lucky" matchup half the time instead of something more reasonable where you have time when one of your squads is under attack to pull back or keep fighting. The fallschirmjaegers are the same thing; once they open up, you have to retreat immediately or everyone will die. It just removes the margin for error and makes everything 100% win or lose when fighting them, cutting out a lot of the macro and focusing the game more on the mistakes you make. Most people don't really mind the PE, though, and in fact some pros enjoy them quite a bit. It's the British people have a problem with.
The British turn the whole dynamic game focused on cutting off resources, flanking the enemy, and attacking all parts of the map into a slog against an entrenched, fortified position that doesn't move, doesn't change, and takes a large amount of manpower and willpower to attack. You can't cut them off because they park their truck on the resources they need and get a free OP, you can't flank because they're designed to be surrounded in the first place, and you basically have to just throw yourself against whatever defense they can set up as long as they're smart enough to set it up somewhere that you have to fight over. The design of the British mostly forces them to turtle up, which is not fun for them and which is definitely not fun for the person attacking. They have basically no mobile AT until the Firefly, which is way too late to make a difference, they have no mobile suppression squads unless they buy a commando HQ glider (HAHAHA) and even their normal infantry can't flank or anything unless a lieutenant follows them around.
This means the British options are limited to bunkering down, sending small forays out every once in a while, and either building enough emplacements to hold off the enemy or using artillery emplacements to pummel the opponent. In any case it's not fun to fight them.
Both the Panzer Elite and the British basically only have 1 good doctrine each (PE arguably have two), which really cuts down on the variety when you fight them or fight as them. I mean sure you don't see much Armor Company from Americans, but you will NEVER see Scorched Earth or Royal Engineers from anyone who knows a damn thing about the game. Plus the British and the Panzer Elite are really limited in terms of useful units (and the British are even limited in terms of overall units; they have like NOTHING to build!). The PE don't bother with muni HTs, scout cars, bergetigers, or anything, which means you really only see IHTs, Mortar HTs, ACs, Marders, and the occasional PZ IV when you fight them. The rest of the time it's just PGren city. At least Americans have three different squads of infantry to choose from when they blob.
Then Tales of Valor came out and made everything bullshit times 100. Kangaroo Carriers are just fucking stupid, the Geschutzwagen is broken, T-17s were overpowered as hell for a while and are still dumb, and the M10 cannot be uncloaked by anything.
But yeah, still a fun game.
Fortunately, US/Wehr matches are pretty balanced and enjoyable. They did make some changes to them so that Wehr could take on Brits and US could take on PE, but it was mostly changing around Brits and PE themselves. Now they're semi-neutered visages of their former glory. After past patches of crazy powerful units, I don't give a fuck about them now.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
That jaded quite a few of us.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
There's still some significant problems. US basically HAS to win with rifle spam w/ WSC support. The invisible, bugged Pak means Motor Pools and Tank Depots are wastes of resources.
Rifles, however, are doing too much damage to MG42s when they're suppressed. This makes the first 25% of the game insanely difficult for Wher on certain maps, and the last 75% of the game insanely difficult for US on certain maps.
I knew you were going to chime in.
It does change the meta-game somewhat with the Pak situation, but it's so minor and avoidable that the other huge changes (MG42 switching windows, supply yard rifle vet, etc) more than account for that problem.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
This is a game I don't mind purchasing twice.
Start would be Ketten to make two kettens (to get rapid map control advantage as soon as possible), followed by two storm grenadiers - first would move to guard a critical location, second would build the mortar halftrack building and then the critical armored car building! The kettens go around stealth capping and camouing when they come under fire and hiding until the enemy gets bored and leaves while my storm grenadiers just chill out and dissuade any decap attempts.
As soon as the armored car building goes up I pump out a assault grenadier squad followed by an armored car, I'd burn my rapidly accumulating manpower and munitions on a luftwaffe squad and a set of assault rifles for one of my lucky grenadier squads.
1-2 armored cars go gib some infantry supported by the assault grenadiers and a mortar halftrack, keeping the enemy at arms length with the assault grenadiers and punishing them with the armored cars, repairs are taken car of by the luftwaffe squad who also pick up any BARs that get dropped and I butterfly mine chokepoints, tank hunter grenadiers follow soon after to take car of the opponents light tanks and generally by then I've won if my kettens have stayed alive to keep decapping!
If the game goes on longer than this I just tech to the panzer battlegroup and grab the infantry support tanks, it's pretty fun to play and it hides the weakness of the storm grenadiers early by avoiding engagements full stop until you've got a full arsenal of assault rifles, you'll have plenty of ammo for upgrades and butterfly bombs but you'll be starved for fuel so fuel points take priority. Anyone got any thoughts on easily improving this strategy? Any glaring weaknesses you can spot?
Basically you need much more firepower on the field in between the start of the game and the point at which you hit T3 (the Armored Car building). Otherwise good players are going to easily outfight and outtech you and there will be an M8 waiting for your Armored Cars.
Maybe.
The US player will likely be using riflemen, and capping very quickly. The PE do not cap quickly. Also, when you get into an engagement, make sure you can win it or else fall back. (This also holds true for your opponent.) You need to decide whether or not to cap or engage with all your PGs simultaneously. Usually, if all your forces are nearby then put them into the fight.
Anything that will mess up riflemen is good, but ACs are still vulnerable. The enemy will either go BARs, grenades, or M8. I would not engage with just one AC, but two at once can end a rifle squad before they do significant damage. The PE is not-ironically all about the fast, overwhelming strikes which are micro heavy.
ISTs might be good first instead of ACs if the enemy does not have access to early AT (if he goes BARs or if you were good in cutting off his fuel). Obviously, he will get paratroopers or Rangers to counter your ACs or Marders/ATHTs you built to counter the M8s. At this point, you can get MP44s to counter those guys.
It all comes down to your micro. Expect the enemy to go to motor pool first to counter your ACs, then back-tech to WSC for the sniper and MG. These can seriously ruin your day if you blob your forces (see also: strafing run) so be sure to avoid doing that. Attack a single target from multiple directions and focus fire. The US/PE game is all about attrition.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
Obviously using this strategy you don't really have a frontline and you're on the uneven foot when it comes to critical point holding but the two assault rifle squads absolutely make a mess of anything the opponent is fielding at the time with the exception of the weapon support stuff, which is why the armored car follows soon after. I willingly give up some of the map for the quick tech and the two assault rifles/armored car/mortar halftrack generally allow me to put a huge dent in the allied offensive. Then it's just a matter of taking over map control, calling in the luftwaffe squads and capitalizing on the army and map control advantages, of course this is assuming best case scenario which is not always the case!
One of the main reasons I'm finding the strat so fun as it allows you to get past the iffy early game of panzers which can often be down to luck if both sides are in cover and puts the american/brit on the wrong foot, forcing them to react rather than let myself constantly scramble for the latest hard counter to them.
Edit: @Veritas (in regards to war of attrition) Oh absolutely, I've found myself pulling back my grenadiers if the fight is iffy because it's just not worth the losses, same for the kettens. The first 4 and a half minutes are all about targets of opportunity and keeping the rifles at arms length until the cavalry arrives. I've only been using the strat maybe 6-7 games so far but I've never really found myself needing to make more than two armored cars total in a game, they are their to snipe at the injured rifles and enact guerilla warfare, it's the ISTs and Marders that come out later that do the strenuous lifting.
You're really going to try to claim Paks 2-shotting M8s is minor? I can't tell if you're trolling or if you just got into this game a few patches ago.
I'm going to clue you in on a little secret: the Motor Pool wasn't always useless, and US gameplay used to involve more than rifle spam.
With the bugged Pak no one goes M8 unless they know the opponent skipped T2 or they see enough manpower in T1 that they can be sure the Pak is going to be a while. No one tries playing chicken with an invisible unit with a high ROF, 100% accuracy, and 2-shot kills.
With the bugged Pak a US player has to be on his 100% A-game from game start and shut the game out ASAP. As soon as the Wher player has enough time to move past T2 to either Pumas or T4 - the US player has no real way to counter it thanks to the bugged Pak invalidating Motor Pool and Tank Depot. The game has to end before that point, or the US player must have a huge advantage (resources for calliope, on-map howitzer, or frequent off-map/strafes) to maintain the win.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
And no, I'm not talking about booby traps. Forget them, they don't work on anyone rank 8 or above (and that's counting that this rank 8 is like the old rank 5).
Your G43 slow ability can do some amazing things. You should always have 1-2 G43 squads in your ranks. I suggest 1 if you're using ACs and 2 if you're going for 4-man assault squads.
You should drill it into yourself that ANY TIME you get a retreat, you kill a squad. Period. If you know you're going to win a battle - focus fire on a unit and slow him. Slow him once if you have an AC to chase it down, slow him twice if you're relying on your assault squads to chase them.
If you keep this in mind, and follow through with it every battle, then the enemy is going to lose a squad every battle. This is critical, and I've seen great PE players really carry this strategy home to the point that I refused to enter battle with his blob anymore and split my forces way more than usual - retreating the moment they got in range.
Once mid game hits, you have an advantage and he knows it. Your infantry (possibly 1 AC) blob is outmatching his rifle blob, which is trying to play catch-up all game in terms of critical mass. Assuming he's held onto his fuel, he's going to try for an M8. This is why you MUST get yourself an AT HT. Not just one, either. 2, 3, sometimes 4 if the enemy really loves his M8s. Keep pumping the damn things out. Aim to have X+1 AT HTs, where X is the number of M8s he has on the field.
Fixed that up for you, but you can throw up more strawmen if you want.
I can think of a lot better ways to spend manpower than Luft, to be honest.
And yes, snipers are a big problem for PE, especially when used with AT guns and a rifle screen. Your best bet against snipers or the afore-mentioned US combined arms is to pull the enemy out. AT guns and snipers do best at protracted long range encounters. You need to pull them out into mid-field, avoid casualties, then charge in with everything you've got.
If you do it moderately well, you'll take the AT guns.
If you do it extremely well, you'll have your AC hot keyed and have it charge in the moment the AC guns pack up to pull back - over driving past the AT guns (let your infantry clear them) and after the retreating sniper. Don't be afraid to go into the base. Just make sure that sniper dies.
I originally commented on your use of ad hom (and removed it, because you've been fighting this fight for over a year now so why bother) but could you point out where I used the strawman argument?
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
I think you can remove the "With any luck" part. I'm fairly certain a teller mine is an insta gib on an AT gun.
And yeah, I love that trick. So glorious when I nail a squad or two with it, so horrific when it's me doing the crewing
They're XP feeding machines for the enemy with their ultra low HP, weak weapons, and paper armor. And for 5 manpower less you could have popped out a 3 or 4 man PG squad.
Now... the 600 manpower tank on the TD side (whose name escapes me at the moment). That's a worthy investment of manpower. Coupled with an AT HT and you've got a combo that crushes M8s and Shermans equally, while not having the paper thin armor and pathetic HP of an 80 fuel Marder 3 (counting upgrade).
Really? I've been saying that the bugged Pak has completely thrown US vs Wher mid to late game balance out the window for over a year? While I appreciate you thinking I'm some kind of divine prophet who guessed at bugs Relic would implement, I'm afraid you're wrong. And I'm afraid that, despite being wrong, you threw up another strawman in the process.
A strawman, by the way, is when you refuse to negate an opposing point or supportyour own points and, instead, bring up tangential items. In your case the tangents you bring up are completely fictitious. The result is that you're not only pretty bad at discussing balance logically - you fail pretty hard at discussing it illogically, too.
Not to mention Teller Mines, better AP rounds, double AT efforts, Tank Awareness... Tank Hunters is such an awesome doctrine. Even if Luftwaffe and Scorched Earth didn't suck Tank Hunters would be awesome.
The Panther Battle Group usually surprises me in long games against the PE. Sure takes a while to get it, but it's rather powerful if I'm not ready with AT. Since they come out together, the PE player is more prone to use them in the same fight. That along with any remaining units can seriously cut through defenses.
Are Wehr Panthers any different than PE Panthers?
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
Ironically, this was kind of my "whatever" account name too. Tried out some crazy stuff, new strategies, etc. Also lost a bunch of games instantly because I went link-dead when my connection wasn't so hot... probably pissed off my teammates.
It isn't 1v1 so it's really a meh victory (and a pyrrhic victory) but I'll take what I can get.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
Origin: Broncbuster
Assault is like DoTA in which you control one hero and go up against trash mobs and other heroes from other team. Even stupider.
Panzerkrieg you each control one tank, upgrade it and kill enemy tanks and capture the VPs. Awesome.
Unfortunately though not many play Panzer Krieg and isn't really varied. Still, I enjoyed it with a mate.
The other 2 operations are terrible however.
I used to be afraid to pull out hetzers because of airborne blobs. Now that I've started fighting dirty with PE, I don't worry about it so much. US players tend to get VERY demotivated when, every battle, you double slow a para squad, wipe it out, and steal a RR or two.
Which brings me to another entry in my dirty PE chapter. In games that last a while I find that, as PE, I have no way to spend munitions. Tread breaker isn't exactly bank-breaking and I find my hetzers do a fine job of cleaning up disabled Shermans without using AT nades. This appears to be a opportunity looking for a problem. That problem is ranger and paratrooper spam, and the solution is goliaths.
Nothing spells fun like sending a piece of green cover with a goliath, sending in a hetzer from an odd angle, getting the elite blob to chase, and gibbing them all into a bunch of gooey bits.
Finishing a game with a 2v2 PUGer without raging at his stupidity and callioping his base is a victory. Finishing so many games with those incompetent twats that you got to level 10 is worthy of an Internet Medal of Honor.
http://easternfront.org/