Since a thunderbolt does not resemble an explosion in any way except for the sound: nope.
Depends on the rest of the text:
Gurkha, flying a swift and powerful vimana hurled a single projectile charged with the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame, as bright as ten thousand suns, rose with all its splendor. It was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas. The corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. Hair and nails fell out; Pottery brokewithout apparent cause,and the birds turned white. After a few hours all foodstuffs were infected...to escape from this fire the soldiers threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment.
Dense arrows of flame, like a great shower, issued forth upon creation, encompassing the enemy. A thick gloom swiftly settled upon the Pandava hosts. All points of the compass were lost in darkness. Fierce wind began to blow upward, showering dust and gravel.Birds croaked madly... the very elements seemed disturbed. The earth shook, scorched by the terrible violent heat of this weapon. Elephants burst into flame and ran to and fro in a frenzy. Over a vast area, other animals crumpled to the ground and died. From all points of the compass the arrows of flame rained continuously and fiercely.
Why would you quote something that's just a bunch of unrelated snippets from different parts of the Mahabharata put together with embellishment? Do you do your own research (ie read original, physical copies of texts), or do you base all of your thoughts on what the internet tells you? What you quoted doesn't exist in that form, and you can't say that the translations done over the past century or more took it out to save face or were wrong.
I'd been a bit curious about that. Those texts together were a pretty interesting read. That's not actually quoted text, but paraphrased sections put together?
Yeah, those sentences were put together rather nicely, but they don't quite stick to the actual text. There is no mentioning of an iron thunderbolt anywhere, although iron and thunder are used. Additionally, Gurkha doesn't exist in the Mahabharata - it's either pulled from the ethnic group that arose near northern India around the 15th century, or refers to cattle herders.
The only reference I can find for the source of that quote said it came from a book called In Search of Noah's Ark - every other instance of it online just refers to "ancient Indian texts" which clearly don't contain it.
"When the thirty-sixth year (after the battle) was reached, the delighter of the Kurus, Yudhishthira, beheld many unusual portents. Winds, dry and strong, and showering gravels, blew from every side. Birds began to wheel, making circles from right to left. The great rivers ran in opposite directions. The horizon on every side seemed to be always covered with fog. Meteors, showering (blazing) coals, fell on the Earth from the sky. The Sun’s disc, O king, seemed to be always covered with dust. At its rise, the great luminary of day was shorn of splendour and seemed to be crossed by headless trunks (of human beings). Fierce circles of light were seen every day around both the Sun and the Moon. These circles showed three hues. Their edges seemed to be black and rough and ashy-red in colour. These and many other omens, foreshadowing fear and danger, were seen, O king, and filled the hearts of men with anxiety. A little while after, the Kuru king Yudhishthira heard of the wholesale carnage of the Vrishnis in consequence of the iron bolt. The son of Pandu, hearing that only Vasudeva and Rama had escaped with life, summoned his brothers and took counsel with them as to what they should do. Meeting with one another, they became greatly distressed upon hearing that the Vrishnis had met with destruction through the Brahmana’s rod of chastisement. The death of Vasudeva, like the drying up of the ocean, those heroes could not believe. In fact the destruction of the wielder of Saranga was incredible to them. Informed of the incident about the iron bolt, the Pandavas became filled with grief and sorrow. In fact, they sat down, utterly cheerless and penetrated with blank despair."
There are many more references and the translations vary of course by some degree. Sometimes you read about "blazing missiles", etc. People had no idea WHAT they were describing and THAT got translated over and over again.
Gurka is translated Brahma here, i think. Its where those Gurkas that were supporting english troops got their name from. They trace their ancestry to that point.
The entire (massive) texts speaks about many strange weapons:
Flying vehicles, energy weapons. Blazing missiles and iron bolts of enormous destructive capabilities are mentioned. Some are described as sound seeking.
Now this text is a religious one. But the weepons described have an awful technological touch.
One of the most popular heroes is Vishnu. Vishnu wielded a lot of strange equipment amon those a so called "Chakra".
Lord Vishnu is believed to be the Protector of the Universe. The Sudarshana Chakra in His hand depicts His absolute control over the various stars, galaxies, jivas, and their individual karmas, as if they all orbit around him.
Vishnu said: "I do not have enough power to defeat or destroy the demons. I must seek help from Shiva. I will ask him to give me a special weapon that will help me defeat the demons."
Shiva replied, "I give you this round disc. It will help you to conquer all your enemies. No matter how many demons come to attack you and the other gods, you will be able to defeat them all with this disc."
The name of the disc was the Sudarshana Chakra. When Lord Krishna took incarnation, Vishnu gave him this chakra, because Krishna was the embodiment of Vishnu. Krishna could immediately use the chakra at any time; it was his own property. Sri Chaitanya also used the Sudarshana Chakra a few times. He was able to invoke it and it would come to him. When he wanted to kill Jagai and Madhai, for example, he invoked it. These two ruffians saw it coming from Heaven and became extremely frightened. Before it reached them, they surrendered to Sri Chaitanya.
The Sudarshana Chakra is not thrown. With will-power it is sent against the enemy. It rotates very, very fast after leaving the finger and chases the enemy. The chakra itself is round and has something like the points of arrows all around its edge. It has tremendous occult and spiritual power to destroy everything. Nobody can stand against the Sudarshana Chakra.
Note that this weapon has been used in classical sci-fi flics like Dark Angel or Predator. Its straight out of the Maharabata. Okay?
All these things are mentioned in the Maharabata. I suggest you read it before assuming anything not being present in those texts.
At least the mention of those devices in the Maharabata are a FACT. There is no way around this.
And, oh... btw... Gurkah regiments are labled as followed: 1st Chakram, 2nd Chakram... etc
Whether or not it appears in the texts in the form you describe, it's still a massive leap to suggest that this mystical object is a literal device.
It is perfectly possible for people to think of and describe, in great detail, things that do not exist. Hell, look at Da Vinci, he created detailed drawings of all kinds of devices that are accurate and possible in principle, but which were beyond the technology of his time. That doesn't mean he's an alien.
Its not so massive given the descriptions of technolgy. They have gods. Actually they do not make much difference between heroes and gods. But they are not being described as simply hurling doombolts, okay?
They are, in great detail, described as using WEAPONS and AIRCRAFT. And those descriptions match technology we use today. Thats too accurate for being a mere fantasy.
Da Vinci was a talented genius. They however were not intending to come up with new technology. They simply recorded experiences.
And some of his devices... the diving suit for an example... well, strike that.
There is a difference between trying to come up with artificial wings and describing aircraft dropping bombs.
And thats what keeps me awake at night. And its not only the Maharabata. Jewish scripture, buddistic scripture, arabic scripture, greek scripture, agyptian scripture and even the bible contains this sort of "eyewittness report" and there are probably a LOT more.
As i said earlier the "omnidirectional" wheel patend is a direct result of this. Taken straight out of the bible. The iron thunderbolt exists in scripture and its VERY similar to a description of a nuclear weapon. Much too similar to be a mere product of fantasy i guess.
A soundtracking missile? Comon. That is DAMM detailed. And, after all we know today, also a very sophisticated method of homing in on a target.
A modern stealth plane could not escape such a weapon. Countermeasures like chaff and flares would not work. For a text a thousand years old thats quite fantastic.
So, when faced with the accusation that your quote is fake, you challenge me by...quoting something completely different? My point was that the chapter you put down exists nowhere in that form, although it is made up of sentences from different parts of the Mahabharata. Also, if you bothered to read more, the iron bolts you espoused as nuclear proof are grass that turns into iron spears, which are used to pierce and kill. Your point about the chakra being a crazy mythic weapon of death has nothing to do with nuclear weapons or the validity of your previous post - it is separate in every way and something that I didn't contest whatsoever.
And no, Gurkha is not being translated as Brahma or Brahmana - those are serious, well-established deities, whereas Gurkha exists nowhere in Indian mythology at all. The Gurkha troops didn't get their name from your convenient translation - the term Gorkha was created by Guru Gorakhnath for his disciples, which became Gurkha as a tribe formed around this, until eventually the land they inhabited was called Gorkha and they started expanding their empire. They came into conflict with the British and eventually were defeated, but the Brits admired their military prowess and established a Gurkha troop that was made up of these people. They don't trace their ancestry to your made up "point" of Brahma magically becoming Gurkha.
I have read the texts - I work in a bookstore, and collect material like this for creative inspiration. I also checked them against translations online, none of which hint at what you originally quoted. Your talk of chakras is unrelated to the actual discussion, and I find it quite telling that you either made up explanations or changed the subject to prove your point.
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It strikes me that if the Cold War had gone down the route of orbital railguns rather than nuclear weapons you would be claiming that it was those described in the Mahabharata.
Where's your distnguishing line for this? Even if we grant the assumption that the Hindu Epics contain writings about technology (rather than it simply being an equivalent of "a wizard did it", a la Star Trek), there are plenty of examples of people writing about technology that doesn't exist which later comes into being in some form or other. On what basis are you claiming that the Mahabharata is a literal text about aliens, but the writings of, say, Arthur C Clarke, are not?
On of my least favorite myths out there is that aspartame causes cancer. While Diet products may not necessarily be great for you, they do not cause cancer. I drink diet soda because sugared soda makes you fat and gives me a stomach ache and yet everyone seems to take it upon themselves to inform me that it's going to kill me. Why are people so god damn willing to believe everything they read in a chain letter?
So, when faced with the accusation that your quote is fake, you challenge me by...quoting something completely different? My point was that the chapter you put down exists nowhere in that form, although it is made up of sentences from different parts of the Mahabharata. Also, if you bothered to read more, the iron bolts you espoused as nuclear proof are grass that turns into iron spears, which are used to pierce and kill. Your point about the chakra being a crazy mythic weapon of death has nothing to do with nuclear weapons or the validity of your previous post - it is separate in every way and something that I didn't contest whatsoever.
And no, Gurkha is not being translated as Brahma or Brahmana - those are serious, well-established deities, whereas Gurkha exists nowhere in Indian mythology at all. The Gurkha troops didn't get their name from your convenient translation - the term Gorkha was created by Guru Gorakhnath for his disciples, which became Gurkha as a tribe formed around this, until eventually the land they inhabited was called Gorkha and they started expanding their empire. They came into conflict with the British and eventually were defeated, but the Brits admired their military prowess and established a Gurkha troop that was made up of these people. They don't trace their ancestry to your made up "point" of Brahma magically becoming Gurkha.
I have read the texts - I work in a bookstore, and collect material like this for creative inspiration. I also checked them against translations online, none of which hint at what you originally quoted. Your talk of chakras is unrelated to the actual discussion, and I find it quite telling that you either made up explanations or changed the subject to prove your point.
Oh, you have read them?
Bhagavad Gita verse 32 Chapter 11
The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all people. With the exception of you [the Pandavas], all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain.
Karna Parva section 34
A single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe.
Mausala Parva section 1
It was the unknown weapon, the Iron Thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas
Drona Parva section 201
It was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas... the corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable.
Mausala Parva section 2
The hair and nails fell out; pottery broke without apparent cause and the birds turned white. After a few hours all foodstuffs were infected...
Drona Parva section 197
To escape from this fire the soldiers threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment.
I tell you what: the hell you did.
About Gurkha... no clue to be honest. I only read the translation where Brahma is wielding the weapon wich is also being called Brahmana’s rod of chastisement or Brahmanas. But given your other statements it could very well be possible that the name slipped attention as the rest of the chapters did. And names change with translations like Jehova, Jawe, etc. Its pretty common and it would not be surprising.
No, there is no iron thunderbolt mentioned ANYWHERE and the passages are made up. Sure.
If you are working in a bookstore you are the expert.
his point was that even with the translation (which will inevitably lose some of the meaning), those are all from completely different parts of the book describing completely different things. Which you just proved.
No. If you read the story you will understand it. If you make assumptions on a few quotes you don't, okay? And the same thing gets mentioned in different books. Familiar concept? Apostles anybody?
Well, you claimed there is no mention of an iron thunderbolt; there is.
Then you claimed the verses were not present in the actual text; they are.
And now you claim its totally unrelated; it isn't.
Whats next? Will you claim the entire Maharabata is a fake? Something like that?
Iron in context of the culture = weapon
Thunuderbolt = from the Gods because fuck if we know how it works
Ergo, a God would have an iron thunderbolt as an ultimate weapon. They would have called them freaking lazer beams if that was in their language. Besides, every "effect" of the weapon just sounds like general mass destruction fantasy; crazy shit happens. Little is scarier than a weapon finding you by the sheer sound that you make. What makes you think that the people who developed sound tracking bombs (they really exist? that is so awesome) were able to do so, what with their not existing before hand, and people thousands of years ago couldn't think of a sound tracking weapon? Its really egotistical to think that we/you are so much smarter now and only we are/were capable of coming up with grand ideas.
You're acting like a silly goose.
Y'know, ACSIS, what you are doing there is called quote-mining. It's taking quotes, completely ignoring their context, and putting them together to say something that is completely unlike what they originally meant. I could quote mine you. I bet if I looked through your posting history I could put together a sentence like this: "I" "am" "stupid". I could combine the individual quotes into one sentence and claim that they all actually fit together, to give me
Their context is aircraft and quite futuristic weapons from the gods as well as war. Flying citys. Thousands of people dying. That kind of context.
Would be awkward to discuss a text without quoting it.
We don't have flying cities. How did George Lucas come up with the idea of Cloud City?
Omg, you mean he took one thing he knows about (cities) and another thing he has seen (flight) and put them together to create something awesome? Yes! That is exactly what he did.
Look, if you can prove that birds, insects, and bats did not exist in the area those texts were written, I will concede that it would be divine intervention or aliens that allowed that society to think of the idea of flight. Fair?
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He still hasn't explained why we should treat every ancient instance of someone describing something not known or understood to have existed as evidence for that thing's existence, but not any modern instance.
He still hasn't explained why we should treat every ancient instance of someone describing something not known or understood to have existed as evidence for that thing's existence, but not any modern instance.
No, not every instance. But since you are denying the contends of a text even right in front of your eyes i doubt that makes it trough to you. I will try it regardless.
The reason why this text is so interesting is because it describes technology thats actually being used some thousand years later. So the chances that this text is a pure fantasy product are rather slim.
To pick up your George Lucas example: IF a tape would make it somehow thousand years into the future where people are mining carbon from gas gigants from within flying cities you could compare it to the Maharabata.
He still hasn't explained why we should treat every ancient instance of someone describing something not known or understood to have existed as evidence for that thing's existence, but not any modern instance.
No, not every instance. But since you are denying the contends of a text even right in front of your eyes i doubt that makes it trough to you. I will try it regardless.
Personally, I'm not disputing the contents. I've granted the assumption that the quotes you are posting are fair and accurate translations of the source. If I felt inclined to dispute that, I'd find an annotated translation and commentary and go from there.
I do take issue with the idea that because something in an ancient text can be ambiguously interpreted as having similarities with something that exists in the modern era, that the text necessarily describes that thing.
It would be possible to make a case that the Death of the First Born of Egypt in the book of Exodus in the Bible describes a genetically selective bio-weapon of the types that have been theorised since the Cold War. It doesn't make it a reasonable claim.
Anyway if they were aliens capable of interstellar travel they would have far more powerful weapons than conventional nukes and fixed-wing aircraft. Or are they supposed to be predicting the future? You haven't ever said what you're even trying to imply.
He still hasn't explained why we should treat every ancient instance of someone describing something not known or understood to have existed as evidence for that thing's existence, but not any modern instance.
To pick up your George Lucas example: IF a tape would make it somehow thousand years into the future where people are mining carbon from gas gigants from within flying cities you could compare it to the Maharabata.
For the record, I didn't make a George Lucas example. I made reference to Star Trek, which frequently uses technological deus ex machina as plot devices. When they do it, there isn't actually any scientific basis for the way their technology works because it isn't important.
I was using it as an example of contemporary media that is packed full of science-y sounding stuff that is utterly meaningless.
Because back then nobody could know about those things. Humanity (with all due respect) was not avanced that far.
If somebody of our time had written that we would not even have bothered looking at it. Because today we KNOW about these things. We use it.
The other 50% come from describing actual applications that work.
So describing technology millenia before its invention in great detail is what is giving it its legitimacy also. And not just this text btw.
If Ezechiel describes a coriolis effect (he surely named it not that way, he described what he observed: "one time the stars were above and the earth below and then the stars were below and the earth above") during his trip to a sky city my curiosity awakens. Because Ezechiel surrely had no concept of zero gravity environments and even less so for concepts of countering that effect.
Do you really think those storys are made up? Far too detailed for that. Thats at least my opinion.
Anyway if they were aliens capable of interstellar travel they would have far more powerful weapons than conventional nukes and fixed-wing aircraft.
Probably. Still atmospheric aircraft and weapons are useful for planetary exploration and dealing with savages (or conquest). Vimana are no spaceships. Its kinda an all terrain vehicle for exploring the planet and military purposes, probably launched from a mothership (or skycity).
Oh, sure. The easiest explaination is that its pure fantasy.
But... for pure fantasy it is too coherent to our technology today.
That makes the fantasy explaination less likely.
And if the explaination is not fantasy... well, go figure.
Personally, I'm not disputing the contents. I've granted the assumption that the quotes you are posting are fair and accurate translations of the source.
My apologies. We are making progress here. Slowly, but its still progress.
Its of course no proof. I know that. You want the starship. I can understand that. I want it too.
This design is refered to as "coriolis space station" because it sounds much cooler then "centrifugal space station", but its actually the centrifugal force countering the gravity. So he was describing the centrifugal rotation and not the coriolis effect, okay, my bad.
But, if you allow me the question, how could a man from millenia ago write that in is record? Made it up? Hardly.
You can observe the coriolis force with a ball and a turntable, as anyone who completed High School Physics can attest. It's not a drastically complicated concept.
EDIT: If you're referring to artificial gravity induced by rotating a space station, then I think you mean the centrifugal/centripetal force. The coriolis force is a consequence of such a set up, but that's not what your Ezekiel quote describes.
Agreed, he describes the centrifugal rotation and not the coriolis effect. Those stations are refered to as coriolis stations and that made me mix it up, sorry (english is not my first language either). But the point remains still valid. There are good reasons for his observation. Reasons he could not be aware of. So how he ended up putting this in if he made everything up? Luck? I don't think so. I think he observed it and wrote everything he could remember down. And if he made an observation... what was he observing?
I know it.
You know it.
I agree, it is ridiculous.
"If we eliminate every possible solution it has to be one of those impossible solutions."
I feel not entirely comfortable with this either. Nobody would, but that IS the logical conclusion.
Because back then nobody could know about those things. Humanity (with all due respect) was not avanced that far.
If somebody of our time had written that we would not even have bothered looking at it. Because today we KNOW about these things. We use it.
The other 50% come from describing actual applications that work.
So describing technology millenia before its invention in great detail is what is giving it its legitimacy also. And not just this text btw.
Wait wait wait. Wait. Wait.
Are you telling me that if, by random coincidence, some time in the distant future, we've invented laser swords that work exactly how they're described in Star Wars, that it's proof that George Lucas was describing alien technology, when we know full well that such is not the case?
It strikes me that if the Cold War had gone down the route of orbital railguns rather than nuclear weapons you would be claiming that it was those described in the Mahabharata.
Where's your distnguishing line for this? Even if we grant the assumption that the Hindu Epics contain writings about technology (rather than it simply being an equivalent of "a wizard did it", a la Star Trek), there are plenty of examples of people writing about technology that doesn't exist which later comes into being in some form or other. On what basis are you claiming that the Mahabharata is a literal text about aliens, but the writings of, say, Arthur C Clarke, are not?
Well, I would say there's a difference between intentional fiction an stuff the writer thinks is true.
It strikes me that if the Cold War had gone down the route of orbital railguns rather than nuclear weapons you would be claiming that it was those described in the Mahabharata.
Where's your distnguishing line for this? Even if we grant the assumption that the Hindu Epics contain writings about technology (rather than it simply being an equivalent of "a wizard did it", a la Star Trek), there are plenty of examples of people writing about technology that doesn't exist which later comes into being in some form or other. On what basis are you claiming that the Mahabharata is a literal text about aliens, but the writings of, say, Arthur C Clarke, are not?
Well, I would say there's a difference between intentional fiction an stuff the writer thinks is true.
That's fair, but I'm not sure what category I'd put the Hindu epics into.
Their context is aircraft and quite futuristic weapons from the gods as well as war. Flying citys. Thousands of people dying. That kind of context.
Would be awkward to discuss a text without quoting it.
In the future we will live in a dimension between 3D and 4D and we will get there via spacecraft that we will call Wormhole Creation Mechanism Dimensional Oracles. They will travel at 80 times the speed of light and will be created via Titanium Fireball Fusion.
Their context is aircraft and quite futuristic weapons from the gods as well as war. Flying citys. Thousands of people dying. That kind of context.
Would be awkward to discuss a text without quoting it.
In the future we will live in a dimension between 3D and 4D and we will get there via spacecraft that we will call Wormhole Creation Mechanism Dimensional Oracles. They will travel at 80 times the speed of light and will be created via Titanium Fireball Fusion.
He still hasn't explained why we should treat every ancient instance of someone describing something not known or understood to have existed as evidence for that thing's existence, but not any modern instance.
You... wait... you really think that people back then weren't smart? Like, they couldn't hypothesize, or invent fiction, or do anything impressive basically?
The only difference is that we know more about how the world works and we have more tools at our disposal. Ancient civilizations were brilliant.
So... is all ancient art representative of something real? When did we start inventing fiction? Just how far does your silly goose hole go?
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
I like Crecy by Warren Ellis. It's a graphic novel with an English longbowman for narrator, constantly breaking the fourth wall and talking to the reader. This is him just having explained longbows and the different kinds of arrowheads.
The reason why this text is so interesting is because it describes technology thats actually being used some thousand years later. So the chances that this text is a pure fantasy product are rather slim.
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Okay... lets look it up.
I simply picked the first english translation from:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m16/m16001.htm
There is your messenger of doom.
"When the thirty-sixth year (after the battle) was reached, the delighter of the Kurus, Yudhishthira, beheld many unusual portents. Winds, dry and strong, and showering gravels, blew from every side. Birds began to wheel, making circles from right to left. The great rivers ran in opposite directions. The horizon on every side seemed to be always covered with fog. Meteors, showering (blazing) coals, fell on the Earth from the sky. The Sun’s disc, O king, seemed to be always covered with dust. At its rise, the great luminary of day was shorn of splendour and seemed to be crossed by headless trunks (of human beings). Fierce circles of light were seen every day around both the Sun and the Moon. These circles showed three hues. Their edges seemed to be black and rough and ashy-red in colour. These and many other omens, foreshadowing fear and danger, were seen, O king, and filled the hearts of men with anxiety. A little while after, the Kuru king Yudhishthira heard of the wholesale carnage of the Vrishnis in consequence of the iron bolt. The son of Pandu, hearing that only Vasudeva and Rama had escaped with life, summoned his brothers and took counsel with them as to what they should do. Meeting with one another, they became greatly distressed upon hearing that the Vrishnis had met with destruction through the Brahmana’s rod of chastisement. The death of Vasudeva, like the drying up of the ocean, those heroes could not believe. In fact the destruction of the wielder of Saranga was incredible to them. Informed of the incident about the iron bolt, the Pandavas became filled with grief and sorrow. In fact, they sat down, utterly cheerless and penetrated with blank despair."
There are many more references and the translations vary of course by some degree. Sometimes you read about "blazing missiles", etc. People had no idea WHAT they were describing and THAT got translated over and over again.
Gurka is translated Brahma here, i think. Its where those Gurkas that were supporting english troops got their name from. They trace their ancestry to that point.
The entire (massive) texts speaks about many strange weapons:
Flying vehicles, energy weapons. Blazing missiles and iron bolts of enormous destructive capabilities are mentioned. Some are described as sound seeking.
Now this text is a religious one. But the weepons described have an awful technological touch.
One of the most popular heroes is Vishnu. Vishnu wielded a lot of strange equipment amon those a so called "Chakra".
Lord Vishnu is believed to be the Protector of the Universe. The Sudarshana Chakra in His hand depicts His absolute control over the various stars, galaxies, jivas, and their individual karmas, as if they all orbit around him.
Vishnu said: "I do not have enough power to defeat or destroy the demons. I must seek help from Shiva. I will ask him to give me a special weapon that will help me defeat the demons."
Shiva replied, "I give you this round disc. It will help you to conquer all your enemies. No matter how many demons come to attack you and the other gods, you will be able to defeat them all with this disc."
The name of the disc was the Sudarshana Chakra. When Lord Krishna took incarnation, Vishnu gave him this chakra, because Krishna was the embodiment of Vishnu. Krishna could immediately use the chakra at any time; it was his own property. Sri Chaitanya also used the Sudarshana Chakra a few times. He was able to invoke it and it would come to him. When he wanted to kill Jagai and Madhai, for example, he invoked it. These two ruffians saw it coming from Heaven and became extremely frightened. Before it reached them, they surrendered to Sri Chaitanya.
The Sudarshana Chakra is not thrown. With will-power it is sent against the enemy. It rotates very, very fast after leaving the finger and chases the enemy. The chakra itself is round and has something like the points of arrows all around its edge. It has tremendous occult and spiritual power to destroy everything. Nobody can stand against the Sudarshana Chakra.
Note that this weapon has been used in classical sci-fi flics like Dark Angel or Predator. Its straight out of the Maharabata. Okay?
All these things are mentioned in the Maharabata. I suggest you read it before assuming anything not being present in those texts.
At least the mention of those devices in the Maharabata are a FACT. There is no way around this.
And, oh... btw... Gurkah regiments are labled as followed: 1st Chakram, 2nd Chakram... etc
It is perfectly possible for people to think of and describe, in great detail, things that do not exist. Hell, look at Da Vinci, he created detailed drawings of all kinds of devices that are accurate and possible in principle, but which were beyond the technology of his time. That doesn't mean he's an alien.
They are, in great detail, described as using WEAPONS and AIRCRAFT. And those descriptions match technology we use today. Thats too accurate for being a mere fantasy.
Da Vinci was a talented genius. They however were not intending to come up with new technology. They simply recorded experiences.
And some of his devices... the diving suit for an example... well, strike that.
There is a difference between trying to come up with artificial wings and describing aircraft dropping bombs.
And thats what keeps me awake at night. And its not only the Maharabata. Jewish scripture, buddistic scripture, arabic scripture, greek scripture, agyptian scripture and even the bible contains this sort of "eyewittness report" and there are probably a LOT more.
As i said earlier the "omnidirectional" wheel patend is a direct result of this. Taken straight out of the bible. The iron thunderbolt exists in scripture and its VERY similar to a description of a nuclear weapon. Much too similar to be a mere product of fantasy i guess.
A soundtracking missile? Comon. That is DAMM detailed. And, after all we know today, also a very sophisticated method of homing in on a target.
A modern stealth plane could not escape such a weapon. Countermeasures like chaff and flares would not work. For a text a thousand years old thats quite fantastic.
And no, Gurkha is not being translated as Brahma or Brahmana - those are serious, well-established deities, whereas Gurkha exists nowhere in Indian mythology at all. The Gurkha troops didn't get their name from your convenient translation - the term Gorkha was created by Guru Gorakhnath for his disciples, which became Gurkha as a tribe formed around this, until eventually the land they inhabited was called Gorkha and they started expanding their empire. They came into conflict with the British and eventually were defeated, but the Brits admired their military prowess and established a Gurkha troop that was made up of these people. They don't trace their ancestry to your made up "point" of Brahma magically becoming Gurkha.
I have read the texts - I work in a bookstore, and collect material like this for creative inspiration. I also checked them against translations online, none of which hint at what you originally quoted. Your talk of chakras is unrelated to the actual discussion, and I find it quite telling that you either made up explanations or changed the subject to prove your point.
dream a little dream or you could live a little dream
sleep forever if you wish to be a dreamer
Where's your distnguishing line for this? Even if we grant the assumption that the Hindu Epics contain writings about technology (rather than it simply being an equivalent of "a wizard did it", a la Star Trek), there are plenty of examples of people writing about technology that doesn't exist which later comes into being in some form or other. On what basis are you claiming that the Mahabharata is a literal text about aliens, but the writings of, say, Arthur C Clarke, are not?
Right, but the per-unit cost is in the tens of thousands still, when, as a prop, the device should be more like tens of dollars.
Oh, you have read them?
Bhagavad Gita verse 32 Chapter 11
The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all people. With the exception of you [the Pandavas], all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain.
Karna Parva section 34
A single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe.
Mausala Parva section 1
It was the unknown weapon, the Iron Thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas
Drona Parva section 201
It was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas... the corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable.
Mausala Parva section 2
The hair and nails fell out; pottery broke without apparent cause and the birds turned white. After a few hours all foodstuffs were infected...
Drona Parva section 197
To escape from this fire the soldiers threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment.
I tell you what: the hell you did.
About Gurkha... no clue to be honest. I only read the translation where Brahma is wielding the weapon wich is also being called Brahmana’s rod of chastisement or Brahmanas. But given your other statements it could very well be possible that the name slipped attention as the rest of the chapters did. And names change with translations like Jehova, Jawe, etc. Its pretty common and it would not be surprising.
No, there is no iron thunderbolt mentioned ANYWHERE and the passages are made up. Sure.
If you are working in a bookstore you are the expert.
his point was that even with the translation (which will inevitably lose some of the meaning), those are all from completely different parts of the book describing completely different things. Which you just proved.
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Well, you claimed there is no mention of an iron thunderbolt; there is.
Then you claimed the verses were not present in the actual text; they are.
And now you claim its totally unrelated; it isn't.
Whats next? Will you claim the entire Maharabata is a fake? Something like that?
Thunuderbolt = from the Gods because fuck if we know how it works
Ergo, a God would have an iron thunderbolt as an ultimate weapon. They would have called them freaking lazer beams if that was in their language. Besides, every "effect" of the weapon just sounds like general mass destruction fantasy; crazy shit happens. Little is scarier than a weapon finding you by the sheer sound that you make. What makes you think that the people who developed sound tracking bombs (they really exist? that is so awesome) were able to do so, what with their not existing before hand, and people thousands of years ago couldn't think of a sound tracking weapon? Its really egotistical to think that we/you are so much smarter now and only we are/were capable of coming up with grand ideas.
You're acting like a silly goose.
"Its as if everywhere we point this thing, it finds a bomb! Surely that can't be a coincidence, not in Iraq."
NOW do you understand why you can't do what you are trying to do?
Would be awkward to discuss a text without quoting it.
Omg, you mean he took one thing he knows about (cities) and another thing he has seen (flight) and put them together to create something awesome? Yes! That is exactly what he did.
Look, if you can prove that birds, insects, and bats did not exist in the area those texts were written, I will concede that it would be divine intervention or aliens that allowed that society to think of the idea of flight. Fair?
No, not every instance. But since you are denying the contends of a text even right in front of your eyes i doubt that makes it trough to you. I will try it regardless.
The reason why this text is so interesting is because it describes technology thats actually being used some thousand years later. So the chances that this text is a pure fantasy product are rather slim.
To pick up your George Lucas example: IF a tape would make it somehow thousand years into the future where people are mining carbon from gas gigants from within flying cities you could compare it to the Maharabata.
Personally, I'm not disputing the contents. I've granted the assumption that the quotes you are posting are fair and accurate translations of the source. If I felt inclined to dispute that, I'd find an annotated translation and commentary and go from there.
I do take issue with the idea that because something in an ancient text can be ambiguously interpreted as having similarities with something that exists in the modern era, that the text necessarily describes that thing.
It would be possible to make a case that the Death of the First Born of Egypt in the book of Exodus in the Bible describes a genetically selective bio-weapon of the types that have been theorised since the Cold War. It doesn't make it a reasonable claim.
The age is what gives a text legitimacy?
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I was using it as an example of contemporary media that is packed full of science-y sounding stuff that is utterly meaningless.
Because back then nobody could know about those things. Humanity (with all due respect) was not avanced that far.
If somebody of our time had written that we would not even have bothered looking at it. Because today we KNOW about these things. We use it.
The other 50% come from describing actual applications that work.
So describing technology millenia before its invention in great detail is what is giving it its legitimacy also. And not just this text btw.
If Ezechiel describes a coriolis effect (he surely named it not that way, he described what he observed: "one time the stars were above and the earth below and then the stars were below and the earth above") during his trip to a sky city my curiosity awakens. Because Ezechiel surrely had no concept of zero gravity environments and even less so for concepts of countering that effect.
Do you really think those storys are made up? Far too detailed for that. Thats at least my opinion.
Probably. Still atmospheric aircraft and weapons are useful for planetary exploration and dealing with savages (or conquest). Vimana are no spaceships. Its kinda an all terrain vehicle for exploring the planet and military purposes, probably launched from a mothership (or skycity).
Oh, sure. The easiest explaination is that its pure fantasy.
But... for pure fantasy it is too coherent to our technology today.
That makes the fantasy explaination less likely.
And if the explaination is not fantasy... well, go figure.
My apologies. We are making progress here. Slowly, but its still progress.
Its of course no proof. I know that. You want the starship. I can understand that. I want it too.
it doesn't really have anything to do with stars either
do you even know what the coriolis effect is?
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http://www.go.ednet.ns.ca/~larry/physics/coriolis.html
No, nothing, sure...
This design is refered to as "coriolis space station" because it sounds much cooler then "centrifugal space station", but its actually the centrifugal force countering the gravity. So he was describing the centrifugal rotation and not the coriolis effect, okay, my bad.
But, if you allow me the question, how could a man from millenia ago write that in is record? Made it up? Hardly.
EDIT: If you're referring to artificial gravity induced by rotating a space station, then I think you mean the centrifugal/centripetal force. The coriolis force is a consequence of such a set up, but that's not what your Ezekiel quote describes.
I know it.
You know it.
I agree, it is ridiculous.
"If we eliminate every possible solution it has to be one of those impossible solutions."
I feel not entirely comfortable with this either. Nobody would, but that IS the logical conclusion.
Wait wait wait. Wait. Wait.
Are you telling me that if, by random coincidence, some time in the distant future, we've invented laser swords that work exactly how they're described in Star Wars, that it's proof that George Lucas was describing alien technology, when we know full well that such is not the case?
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Well, I would say there's a difference between intentional fiction an stuff the writer thinks is true.
That's fair, but I'm not sure what category I'd put the Hindu epics into.
In the future we will live in a dimension between 3D and 4D and we will get there via spacecraft that we will call Wormhole Creation Mechanism Dimensional Oracles. They will travel at 80 times the speed of light and will be created via Titanium Fireball Fusion.
Am I an alien now?
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Can you speak Spanish?
You... wait... you really think that people back then weren't smart? Like, they couldn't hypothesize, or invent fiction, or do anything impressive basically?
The only difference is that we know more about how the world works and we have more tools at our disposal. Ancient civilizations were brilliant.
So... is all ancient art representative of something real? When did we start inventing fiction? Just how far does your silly goose hole go?
Yeah, I just reported you for that.
See where I'm getting with this?
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