Now I'm wondering how exactly Strength helps with accuracy...
Have you ever picked up a heavy weapon and tried to hit someone with it?
Have you ever hefted a large crossbow?
Have you ever pulled back on a bowstring?
Have you ever thrown a javelin?
Yes, yes, yes, and yes.
1. Strength only helps for being able to swing the weapon. The "accuracy" bonus with strength is penetration of flesh, bone and armor on a glancing hit.
2. Crossbows aren't that heavy and the way you hold them, you can brace an elbow on a knee if you kneel.
3. Strength is only required to pull the bow back. At least with modern compound bows. Once pulled back, it sorta locks into place and requires very little strength to maintain.
4. Same as a melee weapon, it's "accuracy" from strength is a glancing hit doing more damage than an accurate hit.
SkyCaptain on
The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
So if you read that post, except for on 'heavy crossbows' which is barely applicable at all because only one class uses crossbows (kinda) and those are light/hand ones, you agree that strength helps with accuracy in the total abstraction that is To Hit vs. AC.
This avenue of conversation is dangerous, and one that's been trodden a thousand times. If taking the abstraction of game mechanics is difficult I tend to think of Strength as having a degree of "control of muscles" in there. I know this steps on Dexterity's toes a bit and doesn't work for some characters, but for most situations it allows you to explain the Strength=Accuracy thing away.
At the very least I think we should be able to agree that Strength will help accuracy. It's just whether or not it helps more than Dexterity that gives people problems.
Also, when you try and make attributes make sense you end up with 10 Primary Stats and 20 Derived Stats and you've got yourself some horrible game.
I agree. Strength does have its place in accuracy, but not as much as rote training. The only place agility/dexterity has a place is with finesse weapons and smaller ranged attacks. You could make a case for Strength as an AC bonus along with Intelligence and Wisdom. You have to perceive the attack, be smart enough to know how best to defend against the attack and have the strength to move your weapon or shield into place to parry/block and deflect/absorb the attack.
It's really best to just work with abstracts when you think too hard about it.
SkyCaptain on
The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
3. Strength is only required to pull the bow back. At least with modern compound bows. Once pulled back, it sorta locks into place and requires very little strength to maintain.
Good thing he isn't discussing modern composite bows but fantasy bows such as elfs in tolkien may have once shot.
I am worried about Psionics (when I say "Psionics" in this post, I mean "Ardent, Battlemind, and Psion"). Now, I've never seen a Psionic class in play, so I can't really speak for how well the whole Power Point system works. What my main problem is how they're going to interact with other classes.
How is multiclassing into a Psionic Class going to work? The mechanic seems insular ( Psion (Battlemind) seems to work fine enough), but what about a Psion (Fighter)? How does the Novice Power feat work with Psionics? Do you give up an at-will? I thought that Power Points were the equivalent to Encounter Powers. Do you take a Power Point hit? Do you keep your at-will? What about Hybrids? How the hell do you balance Power Points and encounter powers in the same character?
These are ugly questions, and I have an inkling that they're going to have some ugly answers.
Breakable Weapons!
Reckless Breakage: Anyone can choose to reroll an attack roll of 1, but if you do, your weapon breaks afterwards. If it's a metal weapon, it only breaks if the reroll is a natural 5 or less.
I am worried about Psionics (when I say "Psionics" in this post, I mean "Ardent, Battlemind, and Psion"). Now, I've never seen a Psionic class in play, so I can't really speak for how well the whole Power Point system works. What my main problem is how they're going to interact with other classes.
How is multiclassing into a Psionic Class going to work? The mechanic seems insular ( Psion (Battlemind) seems to work fine enough), but what about a Psion (Fighter)? How does the Novice Power feat work with Psionics? Do you give up an at-will? I thought that Power Points were the equivalent to Encounter Powers. Do you take a Power Point hit? Do you keep your at-will? What about Hybrids? How the hell do you balance Power Points and encounter powers in the same character?
These are ugly questions, and I have an inkling that they're going to have some ugly answers.
We don't know anything about the PHB3 multi-class feats or hybrid variants yet, but it's already been clarified on Wizards message board that if you select one of the Psionic at-wills that has Power Points, it is treated as always at 0 power points.
Have you guys been discussing the out-of-left field set of products toward the end of the year? The Essentials books, Gamma World, etc?
Not really. It's a bit of a strange change of direction and I wonder if it signifies a complete change in focus (i.e. they're cutting down on hardback books completely) or if this is just a temporary thing to make more accessible products. There's a few notable books that a lot of people expected that are missing. Especially the third of this years corebooks, DMG3, but also Arcane Power 2 and Draconomicon 3.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to get away from having a 'set' pattern of releases every year. It certainly is strange though.
It certainly looks like they're trying to kill off the mini's line though - what with the sudden amount of monster tokens appearing in the Essentials stuff and the cancellation of most of the sets for this year.
Breakable Weapons!
Reckless Breakage: Anyone can choose to reroll an attack roll of 1, but if you do, your weapon breaks afterwards. If it's a metal weapon, it only breaks if the reroll is a natural 5 or less.
This is a pretty classy rule.
It goes nicely with the inherent bonuses from DMG2, doesn't it? At first I didn't notice that and I wondered why anyone would ever take the reroll
* Gamma World will have 120 Booster Cards. 8 Per Pack. MSRP $3.99
* Gamma World crosses over with 4E DnD very well.
* Gamma World is still a rolepay game - but it's made to be a small deviation, not a long campaign.
* You won't *need* Gamma Wrold boosters, if you don't mind drawing from the DM's deck.
* Gamma World Game Day will feature making characters from Booster Packs - no pregens.
* Gamma World: 30 classic monsters + a few new ones, 10 encounter adventure, rules. Self contained game to get started. 4 token sheets
* GW: a few poster maps, and a GM's deck of cards that includes 40 mutation cards and 40 tech cards.
* Doesn't necessarily use classes. Some things remain the same w/ character, some change, plus mutations of all kinds
* Your Half-Yeti can wield an M-16 and a stop sign in leather armor. There's also power armor, blasters, etc.
* 120 card set, 8 card boosters for $3.99 for more mutations, tech cards, and player "personal deck" cards.
* "Famine at Fargo" adventure released after core, featuring a giant mutated chicken. Expansion adds 10 cards. More expansion in 2011
* Gamma World is "very compatible" with DnD. Skill list slightly different, but D&D monsters work just fine and vice versa
* Tech artifacts would be "spooky and scary" in D&D but they work similarly as magic items. "Radiation" as damage type.
* "In LFR, can we use Gamma World artifacts?" Chris Tulach shuts that down pretty quick
* There are character themes that have elements of D&D roles- acid-spitting cockroach might be kind of a striker, for instance.
* "Marketing guys might not want me to say this, but you don't have to buy boosters, and you can always draw from GM's deck."
* Almost entirely random character generation, you'll have a key stat for your theme, and then stats rolled, as well as stats and mutations
* Character creation takes maybe up to 15 minutes because so much of it is random. Equipment purchase is one of the few decisions
* Character progression is faster than D&D, and goes up until level 10 and stops.
* There are plans to do more "genre games" in the future, which will almost certainly use the 4e engine.
After reading through the several iterations of this thread and getting a taste of DMing, I decided I wanted to try and do an adventure with my own storyline, and I wanted to get some advice on the story. It's just an outline right now, the campaign I'm in isn't going to end terribly soon, but I wanted to get my ideas down before I forgot them. The adventure will run through paragon, but I'm only posting heroic for now to get some critique. Sorry for the wall-o-text, enjoy.
The start is the adventure in the back of the ECG. Levels 1-8 will focus on completing jobs for people, earning exp and pay along the way.
First Job- A dragon has been terrorizing town and the PC’s have been hired to take care of it. DM companion character, hereafter referred to DMPC, insinuates himself into the group to help them with the fierce dragon. After fighting through the dragon’s lair, the PC’s come to the dragon itself, and see that it is a silver dragon. DMPC immediately charges forward and one-shots the dragon, picking up a small silver sphere, about a soccer ball in size. After securing the Macguffin in a pouch, he turns upon the PC’s, declaring that “there shall be no other survivors from the dragon’s wrath,” and proceeds to attack the party. He fights “fair” for a little bit, but proceeds to knock the entire party out in one fell swoop.
The PC’s wake up in town, being tended to by a cleric of House Jorasco. They are rewarded for driving the menace out of town, and spend a few days recuperating. The jobs continue to come in until level 8 or so, when they find evidence of a conspiracy by DMPC that is causing the nations to mobilize their armies, as they believe each is setting out to attack the other. The PC’s start to go out and gather information on DMPC, not knowing the true identity of the BBEG. Information trickles in, the truth of which is left to the PC’s to decide until level 10.
Once the PC’s hit level 10, they get solid information on the whereabouts of DMPC, and proceed to travel to kill him. When they get to the location stated in the intel, they find out it’s a trap. DMPC lured them here so he could take care of them. The PC’s see that DMPC is holding several of their loved ones hostage, and so hopefully fight with all their might against him. Once DMPC is defeated, they level up to paragon and get information on the true purpose of the Macguffin, just in time to see part of a nearby city get hit with the BBEG’s true plan, a New Mourning.
The BBEG is the Lord of Blades, finally obtaining a way to remove those meatbags from existence on Eberron.
Do you guys guys think it would be more fun to fight a solo young blue dragon or two elite young dragons (probably a blue and an iron)?
The party itself is level 6 (barbarian, rogue, cleric, invoker).
The fight is going to take place on a pirate ship deck. The dragons will spend most of the time in the air, using ranged attacks whenever possible. The PCs will have ways to get them down onto the deck if they want to hit them with melee attacks (grappling hooks they can throw, cannons, etc).
Why would a metallic and a chromatic dragon be working together?
Forbidden love.
Professor Phobos on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
I'm not sure, but I don't think there is an inherent hostility between using a metallic and chromatic dragon in Eberron, which he may possibly be using.
Otherwise there are ways of justifying it, such as one being subjugated by the other and such.
Why would a metallic and a chromatic dragon be working together?
To make a long story short:
The players are being tasked with infiltrating a pirate sanctuary lorded over by a group of dragons. The more powerful dragons each have their own territory/gang of humanoids. The older dragons are able to recruit younger dragons with the promise of treasure, parcels of territory, and power.
Brass, bronze, iron, and a few other metallics have been recruited into the various gangs. Iron dragons especially seem like major douchebags and would be willing to go for this.
The role of the gods is heavily downplayed in our setting, so there's no major Bahamut/Tiamat grudgematch between the two groups of dragons.
mightyspacepope on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
That sounds like a decent explanation, especially if there is no original "divine" divide between the main groups of dragons.
Do you guys guys think it would be more fun to fight a solo young blue dragon or two elite young dragons (probably a blue and an iron)?
The party itself is level 6 (barbarian, rogue, cleric, invoker).
The fight is going to take place on a pirate ship deck. The dragons will spend most of the time in the air, using ranged attacks whenever possible. The PCs will have ways to get them down onto the deck if they want to hit them with melee attacks (grappling hooks they can throw, cannons, etc).
I, uh
I ran this encounter a couple of weeks ago. Like, exactly. One Elite Red and one Elite Gold. One ship. I definitely prefer two elites to one solo for this sort of thing.
Why can't Dragonborn breathe radiant or force, if they're supposedly metallic rather than chromatic? (Or both, due to inconsistencies in source...)
Good question, I assume it was because they hadn't really added the metallic dragons yet and based them off the chromatics. I suppose, if I had to guess, Dragonborn came as a way of being campaign setting neutral ways for PCs to be Draconians from Dragonlance. Albeit, I think those are made from metallic dragon eggs.
I, the group's sole defender, misread an email and ended up missing a Saturday D&D session, leaving the party defenderless as well as blowing my first impression on two new players.
I am officially the southbound end of a northbound horse.
I, the group's sole defender, misread an email and ended up missing a Saturday D&D session, leaving the party defenderless as well as blowing my first impression on two new players.
I am officially the southbound end of a northbound horse.
If it, uh, makes you feel any better, we had a lot of fun without you. :P
Why can't Dragonborn breathe radiant or force, if they're supposedly metallic rather than chromatic? (Or both, due to inconsistencies in source...)
That isn't the question you should be asking. The question is why Dragonborn can't take Thunder damage for their breath type, as that's the only elemental type of damage they cannot select.
I know there's a feat in the new Dragonborn guide that lets you deal Lightning and Thunder damage with Lightning dragon breath. I'll have to check if there's anything about Force or Radiant in there.
Posts
You know who's done all four of those things?
Hitler.
He was a level 1 minon posing as a paragon tier Elite Controller Leader.
Or all of Germany just had really low insight.
Yes, yes, yes, and yes.
1. Strength only helps for being able to swing the weapon. The "accuracy" bonus with strength is penetration of flesh, bone and armor on a glancing hit.
2. Crossbows aren't that heavy and the way you hold them, you can brace an elbow on a knee if you kneel.
3. Strength is only required to pull the bow back. At least with modern compound bows. Once pulled back, it sorta locks into place and requires very little strength to maintain.
4. Same as a melee weapon, it's "accuracy" from strength is a glancing hit doing more damage than an accurate hit.
At the very least I think we should be able to agree that Strength will help accuracy. It's just whether or not it helps more than Dexterity that gives people problems.
Also, when you try and make attributes make sense you end up with 10 Primary Stats and 20 Derived Stats and you've got yourself some horrible game.
SoogaGames Blog
It's really best to just work with abstracts when you think too hard about it.
Good thing he isn't discussing modern composite bows but fantasy bows such as elfs in tolkien may have once shot.
Thats a class i can get behind. Fuck Seeker.. my next character is gonna be a Bowlord.
How is multiclassing into a Psionic Class going to work? The mechanic seems insular ( Psion (Battlemind) seems to work fine enough), but what about a Psion (Fighter)? How does the Novice Power feat work with Psionics? Do you give up an at-will? I thought that Power Points were the equivalent to Encounter Powers. Do you take a Power Point hit? Do you keep your at-will? What about Hybrids? How the hell do you balance Power Points and encounter powers in the same character?
These are ugly questions, and I have an inkling that they're going to have some ugly answers.
This is a pretty classy rule.
We don't know anything about the PHB3 multi-class feats or hybrid variants yet, but it's already been clarified on Wizards message board that if you select one of the Psionic at-wills that has Power Points, it is treated as always at 0 power points.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Not really. It's a bit of a strange change of direction and I wonder if it signifies a complete change in focus (i.e. they're cutting down on hardback books completely) or if this is just a temporary thing to make more accessible products. There's a few notable books that a lot of people expected that are missing. Especially the third of this years corebooks, DMG3, but also Arcane Power 2 and Draconomicon 3.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to get away from having a 'set' pattern of releases every year. It certainly is strange though.
It certainly looks like they're trying to kill off the mini's line though - what with the sudden amount of monster tokens appearing in the Essentials stuff and the cancellation of most of the sets for this year.
Thoughts of a Part-Time Hobbyist - A Wargaming and RPG Blog
It goes nicely with the inherent bonuses from DMG2, doesn't it? At first I didn't notice that and I wondered why anyone would ever take the reroll
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
* Gamma World will have 120 Booster Cards. 8 Per Pack. MSRP $3.99
* Gamma World crosses over with 4E DnD very well.
* Gamma World is still a rolepay game - but it's made to be a small deviation, not a long campaign.
* You won't *need* Gamma Wrold boosters, if you don't mind drawing from the DM's deck.
* Gamma World Game Day will feature making characters from Booster Packs - no pregens.
* Gamma World: 30 classic monsters + a few new ones, 10 encounter adventure, rules. Self contained game to get started. 4 token sheets
* GW: a few poster maps, and a GM's deck of cards that includes 40 mutation cards and 40 tech cards.
* Doesn't necessarily use classes. Some things remain the same w/ character, some change, plus mutations of all kinds
* Your Half-Yeti can wield an M-16 and a stop sign in leather armor. There's also power armor, blasters, etc.
* 120 card set, 8 card boosters for $3.99 for more mutations, tech cards, and player "personal deck" cards.
* "Famine at Fargo" adventure released after core, featuring a giant mutated chicken. Expansion adds 10 cards. More expansion in 2011
* Gamma World is "very compatible" with DnD. Skill list slightly different, but D&D monsters work just fine and vice versa
* Tech artifacts would be "spooky and scary" in D&D but they work similarly as magic items. "Radiation" as damage type.
* "In LFR, can we use Gamma World artifacts?" Chris Tulach shuts that down pretty quick
* There are character themes that have elements of D&D roles- acid-spitting cockroach might be kind of a striker, for instance.
* "Marketing guys might not want me to say this, but you don't have to buy boosters, and you can always draw from GM's deck."
* Almost entirely random character generation, you'll have a key stat for your theme, and then stats rolled, as well as stats and mutations
* Character creation takes maybe up to 15 minutes because so much of it is random. Equipment purchase is one of the few decisions
* Character progression is faster than D&D, and goes up until level 10 and stops.
* There are plans to do more "genre games" in the future, which will almost certainly use the 4e engine.
And they're very useful for nights when half the players don't show.
First Job- A dragon has been terrorizing town and the PC’s have been hired to take care of it. DM companion character, hereafter referred to DMPC, insinuates himself into the group to help them with the fierce dragon. After fighting through the dragon’s lair, the PC’s come to the dragon itself, and see that it is a silver dragon. DMPC immediately charges forward and one-shots the dragon, picking up a small silver sphere, about a soccer ball in size. After securing the Macguffin in a pouch, he turns upon the PC’s, declaring that “there shall be no other survivors from the dragon’s wrath,” and proceeds to attack the party. He fights “fair” for a little bit, but proceeds to knock the entire party out in one fell swoop.
The PC’s wake up in town, being tended to by a cleric of House Jorasco. They are rewarded for driving the menace out of town, and spend a few days recuperating. The jobs continue to come in until level 8 or so, when they find evidence of a conspiracy by DMPC that is causing the nations to mobilize their armies, as they believe each is setting out to attack the other. The PC’s start to go out and gather information on DMPC, not knowing the true identity of the BBEG. Information trickles in, the truth of which is left to the PC’s to decide until level 10.
Once the PC’s hit level 10, they get solid information on the whereabouts of DMPC, and proceed to travel to kill him. When they get to the location stated in the intel, they find out it’s a trap. DMPC lured them here so he could take care of them. The PC’s see that DMPC is holding several of their loved ones hostage, and so hopefully fight with all their might against him. Once DMPC is defeated, they level up to paragon and get information on the true purpose of the Macguffin, just in time to see part of a nearby city get hit with the BBEG’s true plan, a New Mourning.
The BBEG is the Lord of Blades, finally obtaining a way to remove those meatbags from existence on Eberron.
1. DMPCs tend to be lame. Be careful about using them, even if you intend to turn him evil.
2. Unwinnable fights suck. The DMPC should teleport away. Otherwise it just looks dumb that he didn't kill the party when he got the chance.
You might want to check out the Evil Overlord List before you come up with an evil NPC's plans. Unless you want him to seem really incompetent.
Do you guys guys think it would be more fun to fight a solo young blue dragon or two elite young dragons (probably a blue and an iron)?
The party itself is level 6 (barbarian, rogue, cleric, invoker).
The fight is going to take place on a pirate ship deck. The dragons will spend most of the time in the air, using ranged attacks whenever possible. The PCs will have ways to get them down onto the deck if they want to hit them with melee attacks (grappling hooks they can throw, cannons, etc).
To increase their hordes.
Forbidden love.
Otherwise there are ways of justifying it, such as one being subjugated by the other and such.
To make a long story short:
The players are being tasked with infiltrating a pirate sanctuary lorded over by a group of dragons. The more powerful dragons each have their own territory/gang of humanoids. The older dragons are able to recruit younger dragons with the promise of treasure, parcels of territory, and power.
Brass, bronze, iron, and a few other metallics have been recruited into the various gangs. Iron dragons especially seem like major douchebags and would be willing to go for this.
The role of the gods is heavily downplayed in our setting, so there's no major Bahamut/Tiamat grudgematch between the two groups of dragons.
New thread smell can be found here.
But we get one more page!
Why can't Dragonborn breathe radiant or force, if they're supposedly metallic rather than chromatic? (Or both, due to inconsistencies in source...)
I ran this encounter a couple of weeks ago. Like, exactly. One Elite Red and one Elite Gold. One ship. I definitely prefer two elites to one solo for this sort of thing.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Good question, I assume it was because they hadn't really added the metallic dragons yet and based them off the chromatics. I suppose, if I had to guess, Dragonborn came as a way of being campaign setting neutral ways for PCs to be Draconians from Dragonlance. Albeit, I think those are made from metallic dragon eggs.
I am officially the southbound end of a northbound horse.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
That isn't the question you should be asking. The question is why Dragonborn can't take Thunder damage for their breath type, as that's the only elemental type of damage they cannot select.
I know there's a feat in the new Dragonborn guide that lets you deal Lightning and Thunder damage with Lightning dragon breath. I'll have to check if there's anything about Force or Radiant in there.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Having both of you in this thread hurts my head.