Both are symbols of gods without a following, so their connotations are the ones that should matter. One is a symbol of medicine, one is a symbol of a messenger. It's all a result of ignorance, nothing less.
Worship of the Dodekatheon is still very much alive, and while it might seem seriously outdated to our western philosophies, there are several million people who offer fervent prayer each and every day. Heck, people still worship the Aesir, Deva, Celestial Bureaucracy, and Amatsu-Kami to this day.
Yeah, okay. There's still a bunch of people following ye olde gods, but I meant this in relation to something like Allah, Yahweh or whatever. Some symbols are better known than others, and then there's this quote by Evander:
One could also argue that the Rod of Asclepius is an inappropriate symbol itself, because it is actually a symbol of an ancient god, and medicine should be about science, not prayer.
which seemed to highlight the Rod of Asclepius as a symbol of a god, without mentioning that the Caduceus is from the same pantheon.
Yeah, okay. There's still a bunch of people following ye olde gods, but I meant this in relation to something like Allah, Yahweh or whatever. Some symbols are better known than others, and then there's this quote by Evander:
One could also argue that the Rod of Asclepius is an inappropriate symbol itself, because it is actually a symbol of an ancient god, and medicine should be about science, not prayer.
which seemed to highlight the Rod of Asclepius as a symbol of a god, without mentioning that the Caduceus is from the same pantheon.
I don't think that he meant the caduceus was any more appropriate.
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The Black HunterThe key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple,unimpeachable reason to existRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
I think the rod of Asclepius is more of a homage to hippocrates
Yeah, okay. There's still a bunch of people following ye olde gods, but I meant this in relation to something like Allah, Yahweh or whatever. Some symbols are better known than others, and then there's this quote by Evander:
One could also argue that the Rod of Asclepius is an inappropriate symbol itself, because it is actually a symbol of an ancient god, and medicine should be about science, not prayer.
which seemed to highlight the Rod of Asclepius as a symbol of a god, without mentioning that the Caduceus is from the same pantheon.
sure it is, but the point being, if it's already wrong, why does it matter?
Yeah, okay. There's still a bunch of people following ye olde gods, but I meant this in relation to something like Allah, Yahweh or whatever. Some symbols are better known than others, and then there's this quote by Evander:
One could also argue that the Rod of Asclepius is an inappropriate symbol itself, because it is actually a symbol of an ancient god, and medicine should be about science, not prayer.
which seemed to highlight the Rod of Asclepius as a symbol of a god, without mentioning that the Caduceus is from the same pantheon.
sure it is, but the point being, if it's already wrong, why does it matter?
One symbol is connected to Hippocrates(a fairly significant figure in the history of medicine), healing and medicine, while the other is connected to theft, deception, commerce and death. Which seems more appropriate? If we're not inventing a new, completely unconnected symbol(or something like the Red Crystal), at least a symbol that bears some relevance to the subject could be used.
The rod really isn't a very attractive or comforting-looking symbol, particularly for a superstitious culture like our own, since it's extremely clear that it is a snake on a stick.
The Caduceus, on the other hand, only reveals the snakiness if you're paying attention to it (I would wager a LOT of people don't know there are snakes and just see it as a nice weaving pattern), and has a pleasant symmetry to it, with the addition of wings, which comforts the silly superstitious people a lot more than a snake does. Also, with more elements, you have more to work with.
The rod really isn't a very attractive or comforting-looking symbol, particularly for a superstitious culture like our own, since it's extremely clear that it is a snake on a stick.
The Caduceus, on the other hand, only reveals the snakiness if you're paying attention to it (I would wager a LOT of people don't know there are snakes and just see it as a nice weaving pattern), and has a pleasant symmetry to it, with the addition of wings, which comforts the silly superstitious people a lot more than a snake does. Also, with more elements, you have more to work with.
I think you're underestimating people. Most people I went to AIT with referred to it as "the thing with snakes"
Yeah, it doesn't really make a difference to me. Personally I like the red cross. It's not really the same as the Christian cross anyway, so I don't see the religious connotation. I mean shit, you wanna talk about bizarre connotations, why the fuck are so many snakes in hospitals?
The reason this is used as a medical symbol is because of this.
See, you use a small stick and wrap the guinea worm around it and slowly spin the stick to remove the worm.
Snake (not really a snake) wrapped around a stick. Sign of being a doctor.
Yeah, okay. There's still a bunch of people following ye olde gods, but I meant this in relation to something like Allah, Yahweh or whatever. Some symbols are better known than others, and then there's this quote by Evander:
One could also argue that the Rod of Asclepius is an inappropriate symbol itself, because it is actually a symbol of an ancient god, and medicine should be about science, not prayer.
which seemed to highlight the Rod of Asclepius as a symbol of a god, without mentioning that the Caduceus is from the same pantheon.
sure it is, but the point being, if it's already wrong, why does it matter?
One symbol is connected to Hippocrates(a fairly significant figure in the history of medicine), healing and medicine, while the other is connected to theft, deception, commerce and death. Which seems more appropriate? If we're not inventing a new, completely unconnected symbol(or something like the Red Crystal), at least a symbol that bears some relevance to the subject could be used.
Besides, isn't the confusion mostly in the US?
Does the symbol have magical healing properties? No?
Then why does it matter?
You've explained why it is wrong (which I don't disagree with), but you still haven't explained what difference is makes in the scheme of things.
Huh. I didn't even realize there were two different symbols for this. Not only that, I thought this symbol was originally from the bible story where people looked on a bronze snake on a stick, but apparently that's a DIFFERENT symbol, the Nehushtan.
Yeah, okay. There's still a bunch of people following ye olde gods, but I meant this in relation to something like Allah, Yahweh or whatever. Some symbols are better known than others, and then there's this quote by Evander:
One could also argue that the Rod of Asclepius is an inappropriate symbol itself, because it is actually a symbol of an ancient god, and medicine should be about science, not prayer.
which seemed to highlight the Rod of Asclepius as a symbol of a god, without mentioning that the Caduceus is from the same pantheon.
sure it is, but the point being, if it's already wrong, why does it matter?
One symbol is connected to Hippocrates(a fairly significant figure in the history of medicine), healing and medicine, while the other is connected to theft, deception, commerce and death. Which seems more appropriate? If we're not inventing a new, completely unconnected symbol(or something like the Red Crystal), at least a symbol that bears some relevance to the subject could be used.
Besides, isn't the confusion mostly in the US?
Does the symbol have magical healing properties? No?
Then why does it matter?
You've explained why it is wrong (which I don't disagree with), but you still haven't explained what difference is makes in the scheme of things.
It doesn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. It's a nitpick, more or less, but I've mainly talked about it since it seems to be the purpose of the thread.
I guess I can sum up my position like this: Since I have read up on quite a bit of various types of mythology, entirely due to personal enjoyment of the stories and such, I've acquired a cursory knowledge of the field. For most of my life the symbols I've seen connected with medical services, pharmacies etc. have been the Rod of Asclepius and the Bowl of Hygieia, both directly related to profession. That's why the depiction of the wrong symbol seems a little jarring. I see the caduceus and I think Hermes, and in my mind there is zero connection to medicine. I mean, the dude was the patron of travelers, thieves, liars and merchants, so the picture doesn't really add up. It just seems like the U.S. army fucked up when choosing a symbol for their medical profession, and that's it. I suppose it's comparable to reading people write "should of" instead of "should have". It's wrong and doesn't make sense, but in the end not that big of a deal.
why are merchants clumped in there, is there some negative connotation with being a merchant that i'm missing. Seems like a pretty honest profession to me.
why are merchants clumped in there, is there some negative connotation with being a merchant that i'm missing. Seems like a pretty honest profession to me.
Well, he was the messenger deity, and as such travel was his domain. Hence travelers, and commerce, as merchants had to transport goods around.
Oh, and IIRC there was some weird Greek-Roman overlap and fusing with Mercury, who was a deity of commerce, so the domains got a bit jumbled up. There's cases of some Greco-Roman weirdness with the deities when it comes to such overlap. I'd have to check from some book or another to confirm though. I don't have any handy at the moment.
Another one of the major causes of confusion was a particular Book Printing company used the Caduceus as their symbol. This was very appropriate because books are messages that travel from owner to owner, and the Book Printing company specifically chose the image for that reason.
Unfortunately, some of the books they printed were Medical Textbooks and medical students and professors alike began to see the Caduceus image in the first couple pages of their books.
In any case, religious practices are generally protected within the U.S. of A and while no pagans have stepped forward to claim their legal right on this issue, it has at least come under academic scrutiny. The trouble primarily comes from the common people who have no idea they are using a completely inappropriate symbol. The only thing that the Caduceus might have directly related to healers is that it was a gift from Apollo/Helios.
There's a couple of versions about the origin of that staff though. One is about Hermes just stopping two snakes from fighting by sticking the staff between them, and they decided to hang around. One had something to do with some semi-random guy stopping a couple of snakes shagging or something like that. It turned him into a woman for seven years, and when he turned back he got rid of the staff. It then ended up with Hermes.
Huh. I didn't even realize there were two different symbols for this. Not only that, I thought this symbol was originally from the bible story where people looked on a bronze snake on a stick, but apparently that's a DIFFERENT symbol, the Nehushtan.
What the hell is it about snakes on sticks?!
I explained it up a few posts. Guinea worm. The way to remove it from the human body is to wrap it around a stick, then very slowly over a corse of a few day twisting the stick to draw it out. Doctors do this process and it has been around for thousands of years, thus the association with a doctor of a snake on a stick.
And speaking of the two symbols, regardless of meaning, I just prefer the caduceus. It seems more... warm... if that makes any sense?
Perhaps the western medical profession should use Jesus bleeding on the Cross as it's symbol? After all, it was about a guy that eventually came back from the dead, and when medical professionals are working on me I want to feel like they can make me come back from the dead!
You fucked up your quote, plus are you calling me a "dumbshit" (according to your edit reasoning)? That's uncalled for. I just personally like the look of the Caduceus over the Rod of Asclepius. I have no idea what you're trying to say about using Jesus bleeding on the Cross in response to my post.
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You fucked up your quote, plus are you calling me a "dumbshit" (according to your edit reasoning)? That's uncalled for. I just personally like the look of the Caduceus over the Rod of Asclepius. I have no idea what you're trying to say about using Jesus bleeding on the Cross in response to my post.
Good catch on the messed up quote, and I was referring to myself as a dumbshit. I had no idea it even displayed the reasons for an edit. In any case, I'm simply saying that I think a bleeding Jesus on the cross would be a look I would prefer, but it would likely receive a great deal of religious objection.
If so, I suggest using the 1up mushroom as the new symbol of Medicine.
that would be all well and good until some 100-200 years down the line some medical organization accidentally uses a red mushroom and then we're back to where we are now with medical professionals being associated with penile enlargement spammers
The red cross is just a plus sign, it's not even a cross really.
Who gives a shit anyway. It's like those people that get all worked up about fonts on street signs and subways and stuff. "The letter E in Helvetica doesn't look like that OMG! Morons!"
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It's a sun cross from the viking era, making it 1000-1200 years older than nazism.
Fuck you for ruining pretty symbols, nazis.
Didn't the Quisling regime also use sun crosses a lot?
I think there was that nazi "remake" of Christianity that used it or a similar symbol. To the Wikipedia mobile!
edit: ah yes, "Positive Christianity".
Worship of the Dodekatheon is still very much alive, and while it might seem seriously outdated to our western philosophies, there are several million people who offer fervent prayer each and every day. Heck, people still worship the Aesir, Deva, Celestial Bureaucracy, and Amatsu-Kami to this day.
I don't think that he meant the caduceus was any more appropriate.
sure it is, but the point being, if it's already wrong, why does it matter?
And smallish mustaches too.
One symbol is connected to Hippocrates(a fairly significant figure in the history of medicine), healing and medicine, while the other is connected to theft, deception, commerce and death. Which seems more appropriate? If we're not inventing a new, completely unconnected symbol(or something like the Red Crystal), at least a symbol that bears some relevance to the subject could be used.
Besides, isn't the confusion mostly in the US?
The Caduceus, on the other hand, only reveals the snakiness if you're paying attention to it (I would wager a LOT of people don't know there are snakes and just see it as a nice weaving pattern), and has a pleasant symmetry to it, with the addition of wings, which comforts the silly superstitious people a lot more than a snake does. Also, with more elements, you have more to work with.
I think you're underestimating people. Most people I went to AIT with referred to it as "the thing with snakes"
And these were army people, no less
edit: oh, ok, now I see how they're wrapped. Two snakes. Nothing to see here.
The reason this is used as a medical symbol is because of this.
See, you use a small stick and wrap the guinea worm around it and slowly spin the stick to remove the worm.
Snake (not really a snake) wrapped around a stick. Sign of being a doctor.
Does the symbol have magical healing properties? No?
Then why does it matter?
You've explained why it is wrong (which I don't disagree with), but you still haven't explained what difference is makes in the scheme of things.
What the hell is it about snakes on sticks?!
It doesn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. It's a nitpick, more or less, but I've mainly talked about it since it seems to be the purpose of the thread.
I guess I can sum up my position like this: Since I have read up on quite a bit of various types of mythology, entirely due to personal enjoyment of the stories and such, I've acquired a cursory knowledge of the field. For most of my life the symbols I've seen connected with medical services, pharmacies etc. have been the Rod of Asclepius and the Bowl of Hygieia, both directly related to profession. That's why the depiction of the wrong symbol seems a little jarring. I see the caduceus and I think Hermes, and in my mind there is zero connection to medicine. I mean, the dude was the patron of travelers, thieves, liars and merchants, so the picture doesn't really add up. It just seems like the U.S. army fucked up when choosing a symbol for their medical profession, and that's it. I suppose it's comparable to reading people write "should of" instead of "should have". It's wrong and doesn't make sense, but in the end not that big of a deal.
So in other words, health insurance companies.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Well, he was the messenger deity, and as such travel was his domain. Hence travelers, and commerce, as merchants had to transport goods around.
Oh, and IIRC there was some weird Greek-Roman overlap and fusing with Mercury, who was a deity of commerce, so the domains got a bit jumbled up. There's cases of some Greco-Roman weirdness with the deities when it comes to such overlap. I'd have to check from some book or another to confirm though. I don't have any handy at the moment.
Unfortunately, some of the books they printed were Medical Textbooks and medical students and professors alike began to see the Caduceus image in the first couple pages of their books.
In any case, religious practices are generally protected within the U.S. of A and while no pagans have stepped forward to claim their legal right on this issue, it has at least come under academic scrutiny. The trouble primarily comes from the common people who have no idea they are using a completely inappropriate symbol. The only thing that the Caduceus might have directly related to healers is that it was a gift from Apollo/Helios.
I explained it up a few posts. Guinea worm. The way to remove it from the human body is to wrap it around a stick, then very slowly over a corse of a few day twisting the stick to draw it out. Doctors do this process and it has been around for thousands of years, thus the association with a doctor of a snake on a stick.
I am sick and I am tired of all these mother fucking snakes on these mother fucking sticks!
I'm sorry, I had to.
And speaking of the two symbols, regardless of meaning, I just prefer the caduceus. It seems more... warm... if that makes any sense?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
World Eradication of Guinea Worm
--LeVar Burton
If so, I suggest using the 1up mushroom as the new symbol of Medicine.
that would be all well and good until some 100-200 years down the line some medical organization accidentally uses a red mushroom and then we're back to where we are now with medical professionals being associated with penile enlargement spammers
Who gives a shit anyway. It's like those people that get all worked up about fonts on street signs and subways and stuff. "The letter E in Helvetica doesn't look like that OMG! Morons!"
There are better things to get angry about
That... is what a cross is.
They usually mean something along the lines of these (i.e. a crucifix)
When I see the red cross I don't think of religion at all, the same way I don't think of religion when I'm doing math.