Is there anything stopping people from simply writing up those rights and responsibilities and doing it the old fashioned way?
Yes: private contracts cannot mimic all of the rights and responsibilities of a marriage. I am baffled that you didn't know that already.
Even the select rights that can be copied - how many time has it come up in the news? A gay couple made all the precautions they could (civil partners/union, power of attorney, legal guardians of the kids, etc. etc.) and they're still barred from seeing each other in the hospital by people who are either ignorant or hateful and love hiding behind "oh, well you're not married."
Not to mention it takes months of time, money, and legal fees to set up these arrangements, whereas a straight couple just goes down to city hall and pays a small fee.
And to re-iterate, people may not even honor these arrangements. I'm posting this again.
This couple did everything right. They crossed their T's and dotted their I's. But Sonoma county didn't care and now a man is left with nothing but a photo of the partner he couldn't be with at the end.
You haven't been paying attention. If they wait five years they might get what every straight couple takes for granted, and attempting to rush it would be petty and selfish of them.
Actually, what Sonoma did was already illegal, and they'd be in even more trouble now because Obama acted on it the day after this story hit the news.
Obama's hospital visitation rights memorandum was inspired by a totally different but similarly depressing case where a lesbian was not allowed to see her partner as she was dying. The timing with the Sonoma county case was coincidental.
Also apparently Friday was the court date for that, so we'll probably get an update on it sometime soon.
My point was, this was a couple that did everything they could to protect themselves, legally, in the way that marriage does for a couple. But whoever did this horrible thing to them didn't care. I'm pretty certain that if they'd just been able to say "we're married" things would have turned out differently.
I tend to doubt that. If Bay Staters aren't real Americans and northern Virginians are neither Virginians now Americans, gays aren't married.
For the list of benefits, some of those (the joint things) sound like stuff you could use business provisions to mimic. I'd actually be interested to see the average monetized harm not being officially married does to those who have used clever contracting to simulate the citizen-side effects of marriage (basically what marriage was like before government incentives) compared to an official married couple.
For the list of benefits, some of those (the joint things) sound like stuff you could use business provisions to mimic. I'd actually be interested to see the average monetized harm not being officially married does to those who have used clever contracting to simulate the citizen-side effects of marriage (basically what marriage was like before government incentives) compared to an official married couple.
You're doing a fine job of demonstrating Orwell's point about clear language. You've already admitted you know very little about contract law, and you've made it crystal clear that you don't actually understand family law or the history of marriage.
If contract law is so fabulous a substitute, why are you hets bothering to get married? Shouldn't there be a wave of do-it-yourselfing sweeping the land? Maybe somebody can post an Instructable on "How To Get All The Rights of Marriage Without Getting Married." And if there's no real difference between 'married' and 'contracted' because the benefits are the same, why aren't anti-SSM folks like you arguing that we might as well let the queers marry as long as they stick to civil marriage and keep their mitts off the churches?
You're the one pretending that anybody can like sorta fill out some forms or whatever and be Just Like Married, so perhaps you could provide the evidence that this is so. Maybe when you've finished that you can explain that it's OK to have separate "Colored" water fountains because black people can get hydrated just as easily if they carry around water bottles.
mythago on
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How should homosexuality be addressed in sex ed from middle school on up? It's inevitable that all sex ed instructors will be required to know the basics behind how a homosexual relationship works so what's the approach? I'm of the opinion that gay stuff would only be talked about if there's an interest in it from the class; if no one says anything, sex ed goes along it's usual playbook of 'penises go inside vaginas' and teaching videos. The obvious downside is a student might be too shy to ask sooo ... questions written via secret ballot and read aloud? That'd work. My sex ed in high school was four sessions long and we had a gay man come in as a guest to answer any questions for one of those sessions.
How should homosexuality be addressed in sex ed from middle school on up? It's inevitable that all sex ed instructors will be required to know the basics behind how a homosexual relationship works so what's the approach? I'm of the opinion that gay stuff would only be talked about if there's an interest in it from the class; if no one says anything, sex ed goes along it's usual playbook of 'penises go inside vaginas' and teaching videos. The obvious downside is a student might be too shy to ask sooo ... questions written on secret ballot and read aloud? That'd work. My sex ed in high school was four sessions long and we had a gay man come in as a guest to answer any questions for one of those sessions.
Our sex ed on homosexuality was basically along these lines:
"Sometimes boys like boys and girls like girls, it might be a phase, it might not. If a friend tells you they're gay then the most important thing is that you don't react badly, they're still your friend."
That was it. Nothing about marriage and very little about discrimination.
Then again sex ed in a country where roughly 90% of the schools are run by the Catholic Church is bound to be pretty shitty.
The issue is simple. People already judge the gay community here based off the behavior that happens in some of the seedier night clubs, what they hear about wild parties. And some people, you know the ones that are against homosexuality, freak the fuck out. I don't really care what they do, but it doesn't make any sense to air this sort of behavior in public.
The ones that are against homosexuality do not need Pride Parades as an excuse.
Every Pride Parade could consist solely of quiet people in three-piece suits quietly chanting polite slogans, and it would not matter.
Okay, I've lurked around this thread long enough.
Let me start off by saying this statement is utter BULLSHIT.
If I were to see a Pride Parade as you described, my (and other people who aren't batshit fucking insane like the WBC folks) respect for you guys would grow. Isn't the entire point of a pride parade to show people that you're just like everyone else? If more people saw Gays like Neil Patrick Harris and Dan Savage, instead of morons like Perez Hilton and Chris Crocker (sp?), people wouldn't be bitching as much.
The issue is simple. People already judge the gay community here based off the behavior that happens in some of the seedier night clubs, what they hear about wild parties. And some people, you know the ones that are against homosexuality, freak the fuck out. I don't really care what they do, but it doesn't make any sense to air this sort of behavior in public.
The ones that are against homosexuality do not need Pride Parades as an excuse.
Every Pride Parade could consist solely of quiet people in three-piece suits quietly chanting polite slogans, and it would not matter.
Okay, I've lurked around this thread long enough.
Let me start off by saying this statement is utter BULLSHIT.
If I were to see a Pride Parade as you described, my (and other people who aren't batshit fucking insane like the WBC folks) respect for you guys would grow. Isn't the entire point of a pride parade to show people that you're just like everyone else? If more people saw Gays like Neil Patrick Harris and Dan Savage, instead of morons like Perez Hilton and Chris Crocker (sp?), people wouldn't be bitching as much.
The trouble is only the flamboyant ones get enthusiastic about parades and dress up for it to that extent. There probably is a bland suited contingent, but they're not interesting enough to show on the news, who want to titillate their viewers with the bared buttocks and sequined frocks of the gay parade
The real trouble is that people think it's relevant to the discussion.
Judging people based off a fucking parade is just stupid. With consistant thinking like that, you'd be arguing for the right to marry to be taken away from anyone that went to college/university. Spring Break, Orientation Week, Frat Parties, Toga Parties, Keggers... news flash: I'm Hetero, and I've behaved pretty embarrassingly at times when I've "cut loose". I'm going to be an awesome Dad, and faithful husband - thank you very much.
Denying an entire group of the population rights because you have a negative impression of them has never been ok.
There is a difference between behaving baldy, and behaving baldy in the name of something. Getting drunk and making an ass out of yourself isnt going to be held against you. But if you throw an event in the name of your company and do the same thing, the consequences are going to be far worse. Ditto for gay pride parade.
So should I start judging straight people based entirely on Mardi Gras?
Is that a good parallel? The point of Mardi Gras and bachelor parties and such is you get to act like a lunatic before you have to behave yourself the next day. Pride Parades are about, "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!" and "Oh, I didn't know he was gay."
So should I start judging straight people based entirely on Mardi Gras?
Although you are entirely justified in hating Perez Hilton.
I'm sorry dude, but your rationale for pride parades being the way they are is just... Retarded.
Speaking as a Black hetero male, I can honestly tell you Blacks would have had a hard(er) time in the Civil rights movement if they started dressing in witch doctor costumes and holding spears during marches.
But we LIKE the mostly naked people covered in glitter, and the leather daddies, etc...
They're part of our community. Is it weird? Hell yeah, and we're fine with that. Some of us are very, very white-bread and normal. Some of us go to the extremes. Gay culture is incredibly diverse in that respect and I wouldn't have it any other way. This is what happens when people have to repress their self-identity and then get a chance to freely express themselves.
I said it before, the parades are about visibility, not acceptance. That's why it's "We're here, we're queer, get used to it".
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
The entire issue about being "gay" is based on sexual preference. There's no way to present that in a way that wont make some people squirm. The only alternative is to play it down... But that goes against the whole "pride" thing.
So should I start judging straight people based entirely on Mardi Gras?
Although you are entirely justified in hating Perez Hilton.
I'm sorry dude, but your rationale for pride parades being the way they are is just... Retarded.
Speaking as a Black hetero male, I can honestly tell you Blacks would have had a hard(er) time in the Civil rights movement if they started dressing in witch doctor costumes and holding spears during marches.
Yeah because the black civil rights movement is exactly equivalent to the LGBT civil rights movement in every single way and so what wouldn't work for one definitely won't work for the other.
It isn't like the black power movement, black is beautiful, and other movements that flaunted black culture didn't exist and flourish during the civil rights era. Why do those black people have to wear Afros instead of cutting their hair like normal Americans?
So should I start judging straight people based entirely on Mardi Gras?
Although you are entirely justified in hating Perez Hilton.
I'm sorry dude, but your rationale for pride parades being the way they are is just... Retarded.
Speaking as a Black hetero male, I can honestly tell you Blacks would have had a hard(er) time in the Civil rights movement if they started dressing in witch doctor costumes and holding spears during marches.
Yeah because the black civil rights movement is exactly equivalent to the LGBT civil rights movement in every single way and so what wouldn't work for one definitely won't work for the other.
Black people were never in a position where they had to publicly hide their skin colour for fear of being arrested. Pride parades are about taking pleasure in being able to flaunt their sexuality, which has no real equivalent in the black movement. Perhaps a massive parade around town where they drink from white people's drinking fountains?
Blacks instead were in a position where they had to act as white as possible in order to "fit in" with society. The black power movement and similar afrocentric movements were a rejection of that. Pride parades are similar in that they reject the idea that their minority group must act as much like the majority group as possible and blend in as to not upset the majority group that wants to pretend they don't exist.
The point of a pride parade is to say "there are gay people" and not "some of those gay people sure act weird".
If you have basic human empathy and aren't distracted/flummoxed by men wearing bright pink feather boas, it's supposed to be a logical leap to "they deserve the same rights as anyone else".
Apparently this is contingent on them not drawing attention to the more unusual aspects of the culture on all three hundred and sixty five days of the year.
Because you never see straight people who are the vast majority and therefore feel no shame and have nothing to lose in terms of understanding flaunt their sexuality.
"After centuries of oppression as an 'invisible' segment of society, gays, emboldened by the 1969 Stonewall uprising, took to the streets in the early '70s with an 'in-your-face' attitude. Confronting the worst prejudices of a world that didn't accept them, they fought back against these prejudices with exaggeration and parody, reclaiming their enemies' worst stereotypes about them and turning them into symbols of gay pride," Thorne said. "Thirty years later, gays have won far greater acceptance in the world at large, but they keep doing this stuff anyway."
"Mostly, I think, because it's really fun," Thorne added.
Anyway, I'm not sure why we're talking about pride parades.
The point of a pride parade is to say "there are gay people".
If you have basic human empathy, it's supposed to be a logical leap to "they deserve the same rights as anyone else".
If you honestly think people are going to think that while staring at this (take note that this is the tamest of photos I could find), then I don't know what else to say to you.
The point of a pride parade is to say "there are gay people".
If you have basic human empathy, it's supposed to be a logical leap to "they deserve the same rights as anyone else".
If you honestly think people are going to think that while staring at this (take note that this is the tamest of photos I could find), then I don't know what else to say to you.
Wait, so your reaction to that photo is "these people do not deserve the same rights as other people"? Do you consider yourself a sane person?
Or in case I misunderstood you: what's your point? Pride parades are about visibility. That's why they're called Pride parades.
The point of a pride parade is to say "there are gay people".
If you have basic human empathy, it's supposed to be a logical leap to "they deserve the same rights as anyone else".
If you honestly think people are going to think that while staring at this (take note that this is the tamest of photos I could find), then I don't know what else to say to you.
That looks about as bad as all of mainstream media
similarly, I could certainly pull up images of rappers or the entire BET and say 'well no wonder black people still have it rough in the United States look at how wacky and crazy these guys are'
but I won't because that would be stupid as hell.
sooooo
still not getting it why we have to all wear ties and no else has to
The point of a pride parade is to say "there are gay people".
If you have basic human empathy, it's supposed to be a logical leap to "they deserve the same rights as anyone else".
If you honestly think people are going to think that while staring at this (take note that this is the tamest of photos I could find), then I don't know what else to say to you.
Wait, so your reaction to that photo is "these people do not deserve the same rights as other people"? Do you consider yourself a sane person?
Of course I don't think that, genius. But someone who isn't as educated probably WOULD think that way. Tell me, would you rather this "someone" see this:
If this someone is as stupid as you describe, does it really matter?
But it might frighten retards like how "black is beautiful," black art, and other forms of black culture frightened stupid white Americans who would just ignore any blacks who attempted to act "normal!"
The point of a pride parade is to say "there are gay people".
If you have basic human empathy, it's supposed to be a logical leap to "they deserve the same rights as anyone else".
If you honestly think people are going to think that while staring at this (take note that this is the tamest of photos I could find), then I don't know what else to say to you.
That looks about as bad as all of mainstream media
similarly, I could certainly pull up images of rappers or the entire BET and say 'well no wonder black people still have it rough in the United States look at how wacky and crazy these guys are'
but I won't because that would be stupid as hell.
sooooo
still not getting it why we have to all wear ties and no else has to
No, BET is pretty much the worst thing to happen to the civil rights movement in the past twenty years.
That's really not something you want to be citing.
It's always nice to see straight people that are willing to give gay people rights, respect, and tolerance as long as those gay people act exactly the way straight people want them to.
Posts
I tend to doubt that. If Bay Staters aren't real Americans and northern Virginians are neither Virginians now Americans, gays aren't married.
For the list of benefits, some of those (the joint things) sound like stuff you could use business provisions to mimic. I'd actually be interested to see the average monetized harm not being officially married does to those who have used clever contracting to simulate the citizen-side effects of marriage (basically what marriage was like before government incentives) compared to an official married couple.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
You're doing a fine job of demonstrating Orwell's point about clear language. You've already admitted you know very little about contract law, and you've made it crystal clear that you don't actually understand family law or the history of marriage.
If contract law is so fabulous a substitute, why are you hets bothering to get married? Shouldn't there be a wave of do-it-yourselfing sweeping the land? Maybe somebody can post an Instructable on "How To Get All The Rights of Marriage Without Getting Married." And if there's no real difference between 'married' and 'contracted' because the benefits are the same, why aren't anti-SSM folks like you arguing that we might as well let the queers marry as long as they stick to civil marriage and keep their mitts off the churches?
You're the one pretending that anybody can like sorta fill out some forms or whatever and be Just Like Married, so perhaps you could provide the evidence that this is so. Maybe when you've finished that you can explain that it's OK to have separate "Colored" water fountains because black people can get hydrated just as easily if they carry around water bottles.
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replaced by JPEGs.
Our sex ed on homosexuality was basically along these lines:
"Sometimes boys like boys and girls like girls, it might be a phase, it might not. If a friend tells you they're gay then the most important thing is that you don't react badly, they're still your friend."
That was it. Nothing about marriage and very little about discrimination.
Then again sex ed in a country where roughly 90% of the schools are run by the Catholic Church is bound to be pretty shitty.
Okay, I've lurked around this thread long enough.
Let me start off by saying this statement is utter BULLSHIT.
If I were to see a Pride Parade as you described, my (and other people who aren't batshit fucking insane like the WBC folks) respect for you guys would grow. Isn't the entire point of a pride parade to show people that you're just like everyone else? If more people saw Gays like Neil Patrick Harris and Dan Savage, instead of morons like Perez Hilton and Chris Crocker (sp?), people wouldn't be bitching as much.
I think 2 pretty much said it best in his Gay Pride rant:
http://www.ranting-gryphon.com/Audio/Audio.htm
TWITTER TWATS
The trouble is only the flamboyant ones get enthusiastic about parades and dress up for it to that extent. There probably is a bland suited contingent, but they're not interesting enough to show on the news, who want to titillate their viewers with the bared buttocks and sequined frocks of the gay parade
Judging people based off a fucking parade is just stupid. With consistant thinking like that, you'd be arguing for the right to marry to be taken away from anyone that went to college/university. Spring Break, Orientation Week, Frat Parties, Toga Parties, Keggers... news flash: I'm Hetero, and I've behaved pretty embarrassingly at times when I've "cut loose". I'm going to be an awesome Dad, and faithful husband - thank you very much.
Denying an entire group of the population rights because you have a negative impression of them has never been ok.
Although you are entirely justified in hating Perez Hilton.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Is that a good parallel? The point of Mardi Gras and bachelor parties and such is you get to act like a lunatic before you have to behave yourself the next day. Pride Parades are about, "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!" and "Oh, I didn't know he was gay."
I'm sorry dude, but your rationale for pride parades being the way they are is just... Retarded.
Speaking as a Black hetero male, I can honestly tell you Blacks would have had a hard(er) time in the Civil rights movement if they started dressing in witch doctor costumes and holding spears during marches.
TWITTER TWATS
They're part of our community. Is it weird? Hell yeah, and we're fine with that. Some of us are very, very white-bread and normal. Some of us go to the extremes. Gay culture is incredibly diverse in that respect and I wouldn't have it any other way. This is what happens when people have to repress their self-identity and then get a chance to freely express themselves.
I said it before, the parades are about visibility, not acceptance. That's why it's "We're here, we're queer, get used to it".
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
doesn't have quite the same impact.
Repressing your self-identity wins you friends. You have a self-identity and a public-identity a.k.a. a reputation.
Yeah because the black civil rights movement is exactly equivalent to the LGBT civil rights movement in every single way and so what wouldn't work for one definitely won't work for the other.
What.
I wasn't saying that.
EDIT:
They arent? Well color me surprised..:?
TWITTER TWATS
If you have basic human empathy, it's supposed to be a logical leap to "they deserve the same rights as anyone else".
Apparently this is contingent on them acting the right way though on all three hundred and sixty five days of the year.
Because you see straight people never flaunt their sexuality.
I can't quite tell because of the stupid.
Oh the irony.
I think this gets it about right:
Anyway, I'm not sure why we're talking about pride parades.
If you honestly think people are going to think that while staring at this (take note that this is the tamest of photos I could find), then I don't know what else to say to you.
TWITTER TWATS
Wait, so your reaction to that photo is "these people do not deserve the same rights as other people"? Do you consider yourself a sane person?
Or in case I misunderstood you: what's your point? Pride parades are about visibility. That's why they're called Pride parades.
That looks about as bad as all of mainstream media
similarly, I could certainly pull up images of rappers or the entire BET and say 'well no wonder black people still have it rough in the United States look at how wacky and crazy these guys are'
but I won't because that would be stupid as hell.
sooooo
still not getting it why we have to all wear ties and no else has to
Of course I don't think that, genius. But someone who isn't as educated probably WOULD think that way. Tell me, would you rather this "someone" see this:
Or this ?:
Think wisely.
TWITTER TWATS
But it might frighten retards like how "black is beautiful," black art, and other forms of black culture frightened stupid white Americans who would just ignore any blacks who attempted to act "normal!"
I was going to add an elaborate retort, but I'll just say this instead:
Yeah, it kinda does.
TWITTER TWATS
TWITTER TWATS
That's really not something you want to be citing.
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