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So when CAN you call someone a racist?

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Posts

  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited May 2007
    Irond Will wrote: »
    I am not a racist.
    Your avatar shows a clear bias in favor of scary ugly screaming bearded white men.
    That's not a white man - that's a texan.
    Oh well shit then your avatar is definitely racist.

    Irond Will on
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  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    I am not a racist.
    Your avatar shows a clear bias in favor of scary ugly screaming bearded white men.
    That's not a white man - that's a texan.
    Oh well shit then your avatar is definitely racist.

    that is Randall 'tex' cob, the pride of Abilene

    he is not a racist.

    He is friends with Joe Frazier. That is total race cred.

    JohnnyCache on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    "Asians" do not share a single culture. In many cases, if you confuse a Japanese and a Chinese person, they will be rather insulted.

    "Asian" is the (East Asian?) equivalent of "White."

    There are certain cultural characteristics that mark most of the East Asian region. Their cultures are different in many ways, to be sure, but there are a variety of things they do tend to share.

    Loren Michael on
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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    "Asians" do not share a single culture. In many cases, if you confuse a Japanese and a Chinese person, they will be rather insulted.

    "Asian" is the (East Asian?) equivalent of "White."

    There are certain cultural characteristics that mark most of the East Asian region. Their cultures are different in many ways, to be sure, but there are a variety of things they do tend to share.
    Um...like what? Seriously I'm interested here.

    electricitylikesme on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    There are certain cultural characteristics that mark most of the White people. Their cultures are different in many ways, to be sure, but there are a variety of things they do tend to share.

    Incenjucar on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    sanstodo wrote: »
    Demerdar wrote: »
    Everyone's a racist. If they deny it, they are lying.

    "Shot that never misses" fallacy.

    I've never heard of anyone coming out of an unconscious bias test without some form of statistically significant racial bias. If anyone has, please tell me.

    I've never known anyone who has taken an unconscious bias test. Do these tests check againsts any variables other than race? How do the influences of other variables compare to the influence of race in bias? What does the control group look like? Seriously, that's the sort of claim that needs backing up. I'll grant that people form expectations based on appearances, but that's not the same thing as claiming everyone is a racist.

    ViolentChemistry on
    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    "Asians" do not share a single culture. In many cases, if you confuse a Japanese and a Chinese person, they will be rather insulted.

    "Asian" is the (East Asian?) equivalent of "White."

    There are certain cultural characteristics that mark most of the East Asian region. Their cultures are different in many ways, to be sure, but there are a variety of things they do tend to share.
    Um...like what? Seriously I'm interested here.

    Confucianism and various forms of it is and has been a large part of Chinese, Korean, and Japanese cultures, for example. The problem of misogyny can at least partially be attributed to that tradition, that is still present in many aspects of societies, including both Koreas. Buddhist traditions are also fairly common, and, I think I've seen sanstodo remark on it, but I recently talked to a group of East Asians (Taiwanese, Japanese, and (Hong Kong) Chinese that remarked on the relative "femininity" of Asian culture to American culture.
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    There are certain cultural characteristics that mark most of the White people. Their cultures are different in many ways, to be sure, but there are a variety of things they do tend to share.

    Absolutely. I'm not saying that East Asians are more homogeneous (innately or otherwise) than Western Europeans and Americans, simply that it's not invariably inappropriate to consider the region as a whole. Frequently, as you said earlier, people will be insulted if you conflate one very distinct culture with another.

    Loren Michael on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Yes.

    Which, ultimately, brings it down to 'cism.

    Incenjucar on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    "Asians" do not share a single culture. In many cases, if you confuse a Japanese and a Chinese person, they will be rather insulted.

    "Asian" is the (East Asian?) equivalent of "White."

    There are certain cultural characteristics that mark most of the East Asian region. Their cultures are different in many ways, to be sure, but there are a variety of things they do tend to share.
    Um...like what? Seriously I'm interested here.

    Confucianism and various forms of it is and has been a large part of Chinese, Korean, and Japanese cultures, for example.
    Confucianism and various forms of it aren't a large part of India and much of Asia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia#Territories_and_regions

    Couscous on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    "Asians" do not share a single culture. In many cases, if you confuse a Japanese and a Chinese person, they will be rather insulted.

    "Asian" is the (East Asian?) equivalent of "White."

    There are certain cultural characteristics that mark most of the East Asian region. Their cultures are different in many ways, to be sure, but there are a variety of things they do tend to share.
    Um...like what? Seriously I'm interested here.

    Confucianism and various forms of it is and has been a large part of Chinese, Korean, and Japanese cultures, for example.
    Confucianism and various forms of it aren't a large part of India and much of Asia.

    I know. I don't tend to consider India a part of East Asia (which is what we were talking about), for no reason other than I arbitrarily designated it a part of "Southeast Asia" a long time ago. We could talk about Buddhism, and the travel it made from India, to China, and eventually Japan, where I think Zen Buddhism was refined.

    Loren Michael on
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    "Asians" do not share a single culture. In many cases, if you confuse a Japanese and a Chinese person, they will be rather insulted.

    "Asian" is the (East Asian?) equivalent of "White."

    There are certain cultural characteristics that mark most of the East Asian region. Their cultures are different in many ways, to be sure, but there are a variety of things they do tend to share.
    Um...like what? Seriously I'm interested here.

    Confucianism and various forms of it is and has been a large part of Chinese, Korean, and Japanese cultures, for example.
    Confucianism and various forms of it aren't a large part of India and much of Asia.

    I know. I don't tend to consider India a part of East Asia (which is what we were talking about), for no reason other than I arbitrarily designated it a part of "Southeast Asia" a long time ago. We could talk about Buddhism, and the travel it made from India, to China, and eventually Japan, where I think Zen Buddhism was refined.
    So they only share cultural characteristics if you narrow down your definition of Asian to only a small part of Asia.

    Couscous on
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited May 2007
    sanstodo wrote: »
    Demerdar wrote: »
    Everyone's a racist. If they deny it, they are lying.

    "Shot that never misses" fallacy.

    I've never heard of anyone coming out of an unconscious bias test without some form of statistically significant racial bias. If anyone has, please tell me.

    I've never known anyone who has taken an unconscious bias test. Do these tests check againsts any variables other than race? How do the influences of other variables compare to the influence of race in bias? What does the control group look like? Seriously, that's the sort of claim that needs backing up. I'll grant that people form expectations based on appearances, but that's not the same thing as claiming everyone is a racist.

    There are some internet tests that involve matching "good words" and "bad words" with, say, black and white faces with some reaction speed required. They infer from this involuntary association. I'm not sure whether the results of these tests are generally accepted, but I'll be damned if I didn't misassociate words more with some groups more than others.

    Irond Will on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    "Asians" do not share a single culture. In many cases, if you confuse a Japanese and a Chinese person, they will be rather insulted.

    "Asian" is the (East Asian?) equivalent of "White."

    There are certain cultural characteristics that mark most of the East Asian region. Their cultures are different in many ways, to be sure, but there are a variety of things they do tend to share.
    Um...like what? Seriously I'm interested here.

    Confucianism and various forms of it is and has been a large part of Chinese, Korean, and Japanese cultures, for example.
    Confucianism and various forms of it aren't a large part of India and much of Asia.

    I know. I don't tend to consider India a part of East Asia (which is what we were talking about), for no reason other than I arbitrarily designated it a part of "Southeast Asia" a long time ago. We could talk about Buddhism, and the travel it made from India, to China, and eventually Japan, where I think Zen Buddhism was refined.
    So they only share cultural characteristics if you narrow down your definition of Asian to only a small part of Asia.
    Cute. Are you trying to prove something? I had assumed, from the quote I bolded way up above, that it was understood that I was only talking about a single region in Asia. You might also note that I have been explicitly referring to that region ("East Asia") when writing.

    Buddhism and associated cultural artifacts can be linked from East Asia to Southeastern Asia ("India"). Islam and associated traditions has a thread that goes from Western Asia to far Southeastern Asia.

    Loren Michael on
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  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2007
    If you think east asian cultures are that similar, you don't know enough about east asian cultures :|

    The Cat on
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  • CangoFettCangoFett Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Irond Will wrote: »
    sanstodo wrote: »
    Demerdar wrote: »
    Everyone's a racist. If they deny it, they are lying.

    "Shot that never misses" fallacy.

    I've never heard of anyone coming out of an unconscious bias test without some form of statistically significant racial bias. If anyone has, please tell me.

    I've never known anyone who has taken an unconscious bias test. Do these tests check againsts any variables other than race? How do the influences of other variables compare to the influence of race in bias? What does the control group look like? Seriously, that's the sort of claim that needs backing up. I'll grant that people form expectations based on appearances, but that's not the same thing as claiming everyone is a racist.

    There are some internet tests that involve matching "good words" and "bad words" with, say, black and white faces with some reaction speed required. They infer from this involuntary association. I'm not sure whether the results of these tests are generally accepted, but I'll be damned if I didn't misassociate words more with some groups more than others.


    I took that test. I got the rather common associating black people and bad words thing. However, I did associate white people with guns.

    GG being a redneck, Cango?
    GG indeed.

    Also, Im gonna use this as a rant.
    The term "African American" as a title for someone with dark skin annoys me. Because it implies 2 things
    1) They live in America
    2) They were born in Africa

    It doesnt work that way. The guy down the road from me isnt an African American. Hes black. I'm white. Of course his skin color isnt literally black, nor is mine white, but it gets the point across, and is far more accurate than 'African American'

    Its no different than hair color. Someone may be called a 'red head.' No, their hair isnt red, its an orangish red with hints of brown. But when you say, "Oh, he's a red head" You have a semi accurate statement that describes the person in a way that others can understand.


    I'm thinking not many are in the same boat as me on this subject though.


    And another edited rant, because aparrently I really want to get called a racist today. And that is this "African heritage" crap.

    A guy with dark skin can throw around the red/green/black colors everywhere, and yell abotu his african pride, and celebrate kwanza even though it has nothing to do with Africa, and do all this even though he doesnt actually know that his ancestry is from Africa at all, hes just assuming that because hes black, and in some cases can probably name no more than 1 african country, if that.

    But God forbid that a white guy who was born and raised below the mason-dixon line, whos entire ancestory has lived in the south since the 1700's, whos ancestor's helped colonize the south, put up a confederate flag. Because thats not him celebrating his heritage. Thats him wanting to kill all the darkies. Right?

    Okay, i'm done now.

    CangoFett on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    If you think east asian cultures are that similar, you don't know enough about east asian cultures

    How similar is "that similar"? Have Confucianism and neo-Confucianism not played a significant role in shaping society in China, Korea, and Japan?

    Loren Michael on
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  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    If you think east asian cultures are that similar, you don't know enough about east asian cultures

    How similar is "that similar"? Have Confucianism and neo-Confucianism not played a significant role in shaping society in China, Korea, and Japan?
    insufficiently similar. Christ, read some history...

    The Cat on
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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited May 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    If you think east asian cultures are that similar, you don't know enough about east asian cultures :|
    You could say the same about, say, flatworms, I'm sure. There are more similarities between, say, Chinese and Korean or Thai or Vietnamese cultures than, say, Chinese and Irish cultures.

    Irond Will on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    How similar is "that similar"? Have Catholicism and Romanticism not played a significant role in shaping society in Italy, England, and Germany?

    Incenjucar on
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited May 2007
    CangoFett wrote: »
    The term "African American" as a title for someone with dark skin annoys me. Because it implies 2 things
    1) They live in America
    2) They were born in Africa

    It doesnt work that way. The guy down the road from me isnt an African American. Hes black. I'm white. Of course his skin color isnt literally black, nor is mine white, but it gets the point across, and is far more accurate than 'African American'

    Its no different than hair color. Someone may be called a 'red head.' No, their hair isnt red, its an orangish red with hints of brown. But when you say, "Oh, he's a red head" You have a semi accurate statement that describes the person in a way that others can understand.

    I'm thinking not many are in the same boat as me on this subject though.

    The iterations of different titles for races/ ethnicities has generally speaking been a search for a neutral identifier. I believe that some earlier associations with "black" were regarded as negative and pejorative, but are pretty neutral today, while the preferred "negro" and "colored" of the civil rights era have taken on some uncomfortable associations.

    Irond Will on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    If you think east asian cultures are that similar, you don't know enough about east asian cultures

    How similar is "that similar"? Have Confucianism and neo-Confucianism not played a significant role in shaping society in China, Korea, and Japan?
    insufficiently similar. Christ, read some history...

    I have. I'm something like eight credits away from a Bachelor's in history, and a massive chunk of that involves histories and politics in East and Southeast Asia.

    Have Confucianism and neo-Confucianism not played a significant role in shaping society in China, Korea, and Japan?

    Loren Michael on
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  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Irond Will wrote: »
    There are some internet tests that involve matching "good words" and "bad words" with, say, black and white faces with some reaction speed required. They infer from this involuntary association. I'm not sure whether the results of these tests are generally accepted, but I'll be damned if I didn't misassociate words more with some groups more than others.

    If that's supposed to demonstrate racism I must not be understanding your explanation of the testing mechanism correctly.

    ViolentChemistry on
    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Loren: Buddhism.

    Incenjucar on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Loren: Buddhism.
    We could talk about Buddhism, and the travel it made from India, to China, and eventually Japan, where I think Zen Buddhism was refined.

    ?

    Loren Michael on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Loren: Buddhism.
    We could talk about Buddhism, and the travel it made from India, to China, and eventually Japan, where I think Zen Buddhism was refined.

    ?

    Buddhist-affected-culture prom is at least as valid as Confucianism-affected-culture prom.

    Incenjucar on
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited May 2007
    Irond Will wrote: »
    There are some internet tests that involve matching "good words" and "bad words" with, say, black and white faces with some reaction speed required. They infer from this involuntary association. I'm not sure whether the results of these tests are generally accepted, but I'll be damned if I didn't misassociate words more with some groups more than others.

    If that's supposed to demonstrate racism I must not be understanding your explanation of the testing mechanism correctly.

    I'm probably explaining it poorly. Let me see if I can find it

    Here it is:

    https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

    Irond Will on
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  • MoriartyMoriarty __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    i always fail that test so hard

    but then again i go into it thinking "lol i'm supposed to associate black faces with bad stuff"

    Moriarty on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Loren: Buddhism.
    We could talk about Buddhism, and the travel it made from India, to China, and eventually Japan, where I think Zen Buddhism was refined.

    ?

    Buddhist-affected-culture prom is at least as valid as Confucianism-affected-culture prom.
    I'm not saying that East Asians are more homogeneous (innately or otherwise) than Western Europeans and Americans, simply that it's not invariably inappropriate to consider the region as a whole. Frequently, as you said earlier, people will be insulted if you conflate one very distinct culture with another.

    Loren Michael on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Loren, -what are you even arguing-?

    Incenjucar on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Loren, -what are you even arguing-?
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    "Asians" do not share a single culture. In many cases, if you confuse a Japanese and a Chinese person, they will be rather insulted.

    "Asian" is the (East Asian?) equivalent of "White."

    There are certain cultural characteristics that mark most of the East Asian region. Their cultures are different in many ways, to be sure, but there are a variety of things they do tend to share.

    Loren Michael on
    2ezikn6.jpg
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Gee, wow.

    Humans share traits.

    Incenjucar on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Gee, wow.

    Humans share traits.

    I'm not sure why there was such a tizzy over it. I assumed it was an innocuous side-comment.

    Loren Michael on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    It seemed to be an attempt on your part to say that racism was okay so long as people shared traits.

    Which is somewhat circular.

    Incenjucar on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    It seemed to be an attempt on your part to say that racism was okay so long as people shared traits.

    That wasn't really what I was going for.

    Loren Michael on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    It seemed to be an attempt on your part to say that racism was okay so long as people shared traits.

    That wasn't really what I was going for.

    Hence the sharpness of my reaction.

    You're generally sane.

    Anyways, the point of it all is, many groups intentionally segregate themselves, even if the populace at large is happy to accept them. Largely, I imagine, because people rather often move for money, not for culture.

    Incenjucar on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    I seem to have a much bigger problem with old people than with black people, and also think of guns when I think of white people.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Anyways, the point of it all is, many groups intentionally segregate themselves, even if the populace at large is happy to accept them. Largely, I imagine, because people rather often move for money, not for culture.

    Wait- I'm not disputing the first sentence, but I don't understand how it connects to the second.

    Loren Michael on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    If you move to an area because of the culture, you are less likely to try to ghettoize yourself in pockets of your own culture.

    If you move to an area because of the money, you are less likely to give a flying fuck about the actual culture around you, and instead will tend to try to pretend you are in your homeland, only with money.

    Incenjucar on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I seem to have a much bigger problem with old people than with black people, and also think of guns when I think of white people.

    I'm pretty goddamn racist. Intellectually, I'm pretty clean, so far as I can tell, but I grew up in a scarily conservative and bleach-white town, and it wasn't good at all for my prejudicial instincts.

    Loren Michael on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    If you move to an area because of the culture, you are less likely to try to ghettoize yourself in pockets of your own culture.

    If you move to an area because of the money, you are less likely to give a flying fuck about the actual culture around you, and instead will tend to try to pretend you are in your homeland, only with money.

    Gotcha. Also, I would argue that conservative elements of cultures tend to create a downward spiral of, uh, ghettoization and defacto segregation.

    Loren Michael on
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