I'd say theater production has a little more leeway than film and tv. camera based stuff spends so much more time right up in someone's face it's pretty hard to seperate their character from the actors appearance.
Some roles are limited to a certain race (Othello needs to be black, or at least the opposite race from the rest of the cast, for the play to make sense). For others, it's irrelevant (does M from James Band have to be white, or male, for the movie to make sense?)
No they don't. You just need to be told that the actor is playing a race. Do you really think that the play going on in front of you is something that is actually happening? No, of course not. So why is it important that the color of a person's skin matches the role that they are playing. Obviously it would help if Othello is played by a black actor, because it will aid in the suspension of disbelief, but it is not a necessity.
One of the important themes in Othello is that he's an outsider in Venice, because of his Moorish background. Having someone with the same race as the rest of the cast play Othello undermines this central theme of the play. Or, how about a movie like American History X- would that movie have made any sense if the Ed Norton character had been played instead by Sam Jackson?
Yeah, sure, I guess you could tell the audience to pretend that Sam Jackson is actually a white guy for the purposes of that movie. But it would make the story-telling a lot less effective.
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The Council of Conservative Citizens.... Was that the group that had ties to white supremacists? In any case they can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned.
As for a black Heimdall... If it was an adaption of the original religion I would have a problem with it, since its important to respect the original cultural material. The Marvel universe of viking gods however are so divergent as to have little semblance to the original material beyond the names. so I am okay with the adaption. Just like I would be okay with a shotgun toting Jesus: Vampire Hunter.
PS. I am from Scandinavia and its my cultural heritage thats "being violated".
Kipling217 on
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
It makes...little sense that any Norse god would be black. I don't think this is really a conservative/liberal issue, even if conservatives have a problem with it. I'm not really conservative, but I like works that stick to the format.
But, on the other hand, these mythological beings often do things like turn into horses and impregnate things that are sometimes not other horses. I know, I'm getting my pantheons mixed up here, but you get what I mean; we can't decide that this black God isn't just being black because he feels like it.
They're not Norse gods. They're people that the Norse considered to be gods. At least, that's the Marvel mythos these days.
As comic book continuity goes, it's pretty logical.
Depending on how far down the Earth X tunnel you want to go, they become human again. :P
but you did bring up Othello and thats sort of ridiculous.
it's no less ridiculous than sitting in a room watching people fake stab each other and thinking "yes this pleases me" and then shouting "HEY WAIT A MINUTE THAT DUDE ISN'T BLACK!"
the only sensitive issue in the matter would be why someone would cast a white othello when black actors are marginalized to begin with
The Council of Conservative Citizens.... Was that the group that had ties to white supremacists? In any case they can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned.
They're the rebranded version of what used to be the political wing of the KKK.
As for a black Heimdall... If it was an adaption of the original religion I would have a problem with it, since its important to respect the original cultural material. The Marvel universe of viking gods however are so divergent as to have little semblance to the original material beyond the names. so I am okay with the adaption. Just like I would be okay with a shotgun toting Jesus: Vampire Hunter.
What if he doesn't have a shotgun and is more into fisticuffs?
The Council of Conservative Citizens.... Was that the group that had ties to white supremacists? In any case they can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned.
They're the rebranded version of what used to be the political wing of the KKK.
Hence their (I feel) undue outrage.
Then why the fuck are we debating their opinion?
FUCK THE CCC!
Also: Patrick Steward once played Othello on stage, with the rest of the cast played by African-Americans....
Kipling217 on
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
If they changed Nick Fury to a black guy, and the Green Lantern crew has a black guy... why would I care about fake Norse mythology?
I'm going super-geeky here, but the Sam Jackson Nick Fury is basically an alternate-universe version of the white Nick Fury. The Marvel movies are set in an alternate timeline from the Marvel comics.
Also, what's the issue with a black Green Lantern? There are probably tens of thousands of GL's out there. John Stewart is just one of several Earth GL's.
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but you did bring up Othello and thats sort of ridiculous.
it's no less ridiculous than sitting in a room watching people fake stab each other and thinking "yes this pleases me" and then shouting "HEY WAIT A MINUTE THAT DUDE ISN'T BLACK!"
the only sensitive issue in the matter would be why someone would cast a white othello when black actors are marginalized to begin with
I'm not sure what you're saying in the first sentence.
If you cast someone who can't pass as a Moor as Othello you have to rewrite the story in some way to make it work.
Othello needs to be an outsider, and the best way to be an outsider in that setting is to make him a foreigner from an unfriendly country.
The Council of Conservative Citizens.... Was that the group that had ties to white supremacists? In any case they can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned.
They're the rebranded version of what used to be the political wing of the KKK.
Hence their (I feel) undue outrage.
Then why the fuck are we debating their opinion?
FUCK THE CCC!
Also: Patrick Steward once played Othello on stage, with the rest of the cast played by African-Americans....
I don't know that we are debating their opinion.
The idea was to open it up past what they had to say.
If they changed Nick Fury to a black guy, and the Green Lantern crew has a black guy... why would I care about fake Norse mythology?
I'm going super-geeky here, but the Sam Jackson Nick Fury is basically an alternate-universe version of the white Nick Fury. The Marvel movies are set in an alternate timeline from the Marvel comics.
Also, what's the issue with a black Green Lantern? There are probably tens of thousands of GL's out there. John Stewart is just one of several Earth GL's.
The issue is that Earth is only supposed to get one. :P
I don't really care if it's John Stewart, but we shouldn't have 4 floating around out there. Especially given all the trouble the three that aren't John have caused.
If they changed Nick Fury to a black guy, and the Green Lantern crew has a black guy... why would I care about fake Norse mythology?
I'm going super-geeky here, but the Sam Jackson Nick Fury is basically an alternate-universe version of the white Nick Fury. The Marvel movies are set in an alternate timeline from the Marvel comics.
Also, what's the issue with a black Green Lantern? There are probably tens of thousands of GL's out there. John Stewart is just one of several Earth GL's.
The issue is that Earth is only supposed to get one. :P
I don't really care if it's John Stewart, but we shouldn't have 4 floating around out there. Especially given all the trouble the three that aren't John have caused.
Earth is pretty super-special, though. I mean, even Darkseid is hesitant to fuck with the planet.
The best GL will always be Guy Gardner. He shows that you can be a giant dick and a boor, but still be a good guy who's not afraid to go toe-to-toe with guys like Despero.
Edit: And I think there's only ever one "official" Earth GL. The rest are usually assigned to something else.
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Looking at the wiki page for the character yields this:
In Thor: The Mighty Avenger #6, Heimdall, much like his Marvel Universe incarnation, appears as the guard of the Bifrost bridge, sports a goatee and wears a horned helmet that casts his eyes in shadows. Unlike the Marvel Universe version, however, this Heimdall is black, a shapeshifter (taking the forms of Surtur and Fin Fang Foom) and a clear superior to Thor in combat. Heimdall is ordered by Odin to keep Thor from returning to Asgard.
They might be basing the movie Heimdall off of this version of the character.
It's the other way around. Movie Heindall was announced before this issue came out.
I think basically the thing is that some details about a character will always be important for the plot and for that character to be who he/she is. Sometimes those details are visible to the naked eye.
The Council of Conservative Citizens.... Was that the group that had ties to white supremacists? In any case they can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned.
They're the rebranded version of what used to be the political wing of the KKK.
Hence their (I feel) undue outrage.
Then why the fuck are we debating their opinion?
FUCK THE CCC!
Also: Patrick Steward once played Othello on stage, with the rest of the cast played by African-Americans....
I don't know that we are debating their opinion.
The idea was to open it up past what they had to say.
You know, like we do here.
Why present their opinion at all? The Spiderman/Donald Glover issue would have suited just fine, with a aside to the new black Heimdall. By presenting it at all, you are giving their opinion a legitimacy it doesn't deserve. You are also ironicaly stiffling the debate, because who wants to be on the same side as the CCC?
Kipling217 on
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
The Council of Conservative Citizens.... Was that the group that had ties to white supremacists? In any case they can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned.
They're the rebranded version of what used to be the political wing of the KKK.
Hence their (I feel) undue outrage.
Then why the fuck are we debating their opinion?
FUCK THE CCC!
Also: Patrick Steward once played Othello on stage, with the rest of the cast played by African-Americans....
I don't know that we are debating their opinion.
The idea was to open it up past what they had to say.
You know, like we do here.
Why present their opinion at all? The Spiderman/Donald Glover issue would have suited just fine, with a aside to the new black Heimdall. By presenting it at all, you are giving their opinion a legitimacy it doesn't deserve. You are also ironicaly stiffling the debate, because who wants to be on the same side as the CCC?
I put that link in because it's what brought this to my attention. I don't know of any organization that's coming out specifically pro-Black Heimdall, or I would have included them as well.
I think there are ways to dislike this casting decision without coming off all "rah rah racewar" like the CCC.
Yeah. And I'm sure when the play debuted there was a black man in the role. And women playing the women.
You're right there wasn't because black men were second class individuals and women weren't allowed to act.
Whats your point? How does that in any way address my point that you should cast black people for parts where being black is a central plot point?
You're the one making the assertion.
The play performed by a white Othello gained enough fame to last for hundreds of years. What should skin color play any more role in casting than lack of nobility or correct language or hair color?
Senjutsu on
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Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
If they changed Nick Fury to a black guy, and the Green Lantern crew has a black guy... why would I care about fake Norse mythology?
I'm going super-geeky here, but the Sam Jackson Nick Fury is basically an alternate-universe version of the white Nick Fury. The Marvel movies are set in an alternate timeline from the Marvel comics.
Also, what's the issue with a black Green Lantern? There are probably tens of thousands of GL's out there. John Stewart is just one of several Earth GL's.
The issue is that Earth is only supposed to get one. :P
I don't really care if it's John Stewart, but we shouldn't have 4 floating around out there. Especially given all the trouble the three that aren't John have caused.
Earth is pretty super-special, though. I mean, even Darkseid is hesitant to fuck with the planet.
The best GL will always be Guy Gardner. He shows that you can be a giant dick and a boor, but still be a good guy who's not afraid to go toe-to-toe with guys like Despero.
Edit: And I think there's only ever one "official" Earth GL. The rest are usually assigned to something else.
I mentioned over in [chat] that I'd like to see a John Stewart cameo. Just, ya know, a little bit part; he doesn't impart the gigantic continuity issues that Rayner and Gardner do.
Yeah. And I'm sure when the play debuted there was a black man in the role. And women playing the women.
You're right there wasn't because black men were second class individuals and women weren't allowed to act.
Whats your point? How does that in any way address my point that you should cast black people for parts where being black is a central plot point?
You're the one making the assertion.
The play performed by a white Othello gained enough fame to last for hundreds of years. What should skin color play any more role in casting than lack of nobility or correct language or hair color?
It worked because the actor put on black face.
We could do that I suppose.
Skin color isn't something you can fake like hair color, or nobility.
Its apples and oranges, there is nothing physically different between a king and random guy #35235 so theres no issue casting a non royal actor as royalty. And its still socially acceptable to change your hair color.
If it was important to the character's background, it'd matter. Like someone brought up Storm, her African heritage IS important. Othello's heritage IS important. Nightcrawler's heritage IS important.
But a lot of comic book characters are just templates that can be adjusted from time to time and as long as it doesn't interfere with their cultural upbringing, it's fine.
With religious texts I think its also fine to play around with skin tones and not just have a homogeneous look for everyone involved in the story, they're still templates. I'd also like to assume that there are Black Norwegians, not a lot but some.
So in that case if the Norse background WAS important (but a lot of people are saying that storyline wise, they're not even the same gods they just happen to share names), isn't it still possible to have a Black Norwegian God? There must be Black Norwegians, right?
I think there are ways to dislike this casting decision without coming off all "rah rah racewar" like the CCC.
par exemple?
If one felt that Heimdall's characterization was deeply tied to his ethnic heritage, for example. If one viewed Heimdall as uniquely Nordic in some manner (such as taking his "whitest of the Aesir" title literally). I don't necessarily feel that way, but it's a potential avenue for dissent that doesn't imply racial inferiority in some form.
The other example I gave of Tchalla would fall more in that category, I think. His heritage as prince of an African kingdom would make casting a white guy to play the Black Panther kind of suspect.
If it was important to the character's background, it'd matter. Like someone brought up Storm, her African heritage IS important. Othello's heritage IS important. Nightcrawler's heritage IS important.
But a lot of comic book characters are just templates that can be adjusted from time to time and as long as it doesn't interfere with their cultural upbringing, it's fine.
With religious texts I think its also fine to play around with skin tones and not just have a homogeneous look for everyone involved in the story, they're still templates. I'd also like to assume that there are Black Norwegians, not a lot but some.
So in that case if the Norse background WAS important (but a lot of people are saying that storyline wise, they're not even the same gods they just happen to share names), isn't it still possible to have a Black Norwegian God? There must be Black Norwegians, right?
I... don't think there were black Norwegians when the myths first came into being.
However, yes, I'd assume a god could just choose to look like whatever human. Hell, Heimdal might have chosen to look like Idris Elba. Hilarity.
I think there are ways to dislike this casting decision without coming off all "rah rah racewar" like the CCC.
par exemple?
If one felt that Heimdall's characterization was deeply tied to his ethnic heritage, for example. If one viewed Heimdall as uniquely Nordic in some manner (such as taking his "whitest of the Aesir" title literally). I don't necessarily feel that way, but it's a potential avenue for dissent that doesn't imply racial inferiority in some form.
I think that we can agree that while there may be situations where these objections are reasonable, this isn't one of those situations. I hate to be on the site of stifling debate, but this does seem like an outcry that is more worth of derision than debate.
This is simply an assertion. I don't buy it; it's not as though the audience was duped by the blackface. Justify your argument.
My argument? That one should select actors that can actually portray features and conditions necessary to the plot of the story?
I'm comfortable calling it an artistic assertion.
Actors aren't amorphous props that can be shaped into any roll. You have to pick the right actor for the right part and in some roles, such as King, Sacajawea, Othello, Buddha, etc... race is part of picking the right actor, just like picking a woman is important for casting female rolls.
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Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
@styrofoam: do you think that people saw blackface and said "oh ok this is a black dude now it makes sense" ? No, they were willing to suspend their disbelief. If a character's background is important to them, it will be revealed in the plotline. Skin color does not tell you a plotline anyway besides metaphorically.
@those saying background matters: if storm's background is important to them, it will come across in the storyline. Perhaps an actor can use the role to discover something about themself, and it will help them give a great performance.
If it was important to the character's background, it'd matter. Like someone brought up Storm, her African heritage IS important. Othello's heritage IS important. Nightcrawler's heritage IS important.
But a lot of comic book characters are just templates that can be adjusted from time to time and as long as it doesn't interfere with their cultural upbringing, it's fine.
With religious texts I think its also fine to play around with skin tones and not just have a homogeneous look for everyone involved in the story, they're still templates. I'd also like to assume that there are Black Norwegians, not a lot but some.
So in that case if the Norse background WAS important (but a lot of people are saying that storyline wise, they're not even the same gods they just happen to share names), isn't it still possible to have a Black Norwegian God? There must be Black Norwegians, right?
I... don't think there were black Norwegians when the myths first came into being.
However, yes, I'd assume a god could just choose to look like whatever human. Hell, Heimdal might have chosen to look like Idris Elba. Hilarity.
True, true. I don't know, I'm just wondering out loud so I'm open to people correcting me on all of this.
But when considering Gods, and also comic book characters whose (who's?) skin color/background isn't super important, it should be fine.
Like if we had a superhero named "Raeleus" and he was on the benefiting side of the South African apartheid, hence White South African, it wouldn't make sense to make him a Black South African who benefited from apartheid I don't think.
But Gods can be played with, I think.
I don't know, this is all super interesting to me.
@styrofoam: do you think that people saw blackface and said "oh ok this is a black dude now it makes sense" ? No, they were willing to suspend their disbelief. If a character's background is important to them, it will be revealed in the plotline. Skin color does not tell you a plotline anyway besides metaphorically.
yes in part it was. They chose small men with feminine figures who could pass off as women for the same reason.
Even if you can somehow get the audience to clearly understand that actor X is actually playing a Moor its going to get ridiculous when the characters keep referring to someone who looks like Ryan Reynolds as a moor or "black dog".
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Yeah, sure, I guess you could tell the audience to pretend that Sam Jackson is actually a white guy for the purposes of that movie. But it would make the story-telling a lot less effective.
Rigorous Scholarship
As for a black Heimdall... If it was an adaption of the original religion I would have a problem with it, since its important to respect the original cultural material. The Marvel universe of viking gods however are so divergent as to have little semblance to the original material beyond the names. so I am okay with the adaption. Just like I would be okay with a shotgun toting Jesus: Vampire Hunter.
PS. I am from Scandinavia and its my cultural heritage thats "being violated".
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
it's no less ridiculous than sitting in a room watching people fake stab each other and thinking "yes this pleases me" and then shouting "HEY WAIT A MINUTE THAT DUDE ISN'T BLACK!"
the only sensitive issue in the matter would be why someone would cast a white othello when black actors are marginalized to begin with
Hence their (I feel) undue outrage.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
What if he doesn't have a shotgun and is more into fisticuffs?
http://royshaff.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/jesus_christ_vampire_hunter_copy.jpg
Then why the fuck are we debating their opinion?
FUCK THE CCC!
Also: Patrick Steward once played Othello on stage, with the rest of the cast played by African-Americans....
Also, what's the issue with a black Green Lantern? There are probably tens of thousands of GL's out there. John Stewart is just one of several Earth GL's.
Rigorous Scholarship
I'm not sure what you're saying in the first sentence.
If you cast someone who can't pass as a Moor as Othello you have to rewrite the story in some way to make it work.
Othello needs to be an outsider, and the best way to be an outsider in that setting is to make him a foreigner from an unfriendly country.
The idea was to open it up past what they had to say.
You know, like we do here.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I don't really care if it's John Stewart, but we shouldn't have 4 floating around out there. Especially given all the trouble the three that aren't John have caused.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
The best GL will always be Guy Gardner. He shows that you can be a giant dick and a boor, but still be a good guy who's not afraid to go toe-to-toe with guys like Despero.
Edit: And I think there's only ever one "official" Earth GL. The rest are usually assigned to something else.
Rigorous Scholarship
Why is Heimdall being black problematic? Because it's inaccurate?
The comic's gods are not Scandinavian, so it's well within the realm of interpretation.
How is an infinitesimal thing like pigment important, compared to the huge liberties they've taken with the original mythology AND the comic itself?
There is no logic to this objection; there is only a weird racially charged concern with skin colour.
Fact is, Elba is a really good actor and I'd cast him anywhere he wants.
It's the other way around. Movie Heindall was announced before this issue came out.
Why present their opinion at all? The Spiderman/Donald Glover issue would have suited just fine, with a aside to the new black Heimdall. By presenting it at all, you are giving their opinion a legitimacy it doesn't deserve. You are also ironicaly stiffling the debate, because who wants to be on the same side as the CCC?
You're right there wasn't because black men were second class individuals and women weren't allowed to act.
Whats your point? How does that in any way address my point that you should cast black people for parts where being black is a central plot point?
I think there are ways to dislike this casting decision without coming off all "rah rah racewar" like the CCC.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
You're the one making the assertion.
The play performed by a white Othello gained enough fame to last for hundreds of years. What should skin color play any more role in casting than lack of nobility or correct language or hair color?
I mentioned over in [chat] that I'd like to see a John Stewart cameo. Just, ya know, a little bit part; he doesn't impart the gigantic continuity issues that Rayner and Gardner do.
You're begging the question.
You are taking as an assumption the very thing Senj and others are refuting.
This isn't a real argument.
It worked because the actor put on black face.
We could do that I suppose.
Skin color isn't something you can fake like hair color, or nobility.
Its apples and oranges, there is nothing physically different between a king and random guy #35235 so theres no issue casting a non royal actor as royalty. And its still socially acceptable to change your hair color.
Presumably to avoid being called COCC.
But a lot of comic book characters are just templates that can be adjusted from time to time and as long as it doesn't interfere with their cultural upbringing, it's fine.
With religious texts I think its also fine to play around with skin tones and not just have a homogeneous look for everyone involved in the story, they're still templates. I'd also like to assume that there are Black Norwegians, not a lot but some.
So in that case if the Norse background WAS important (but a lot of people are saying that storyline wise, they're not even the same gods they just happen to share names), isn't it still possible to have a Black Norwegian God? There must be Black Norwegians, right?
There are, which is why I question the inclusion of the CCC on the con side.
The other example I gave of Tchalla would fall more in that category, I think. His heritage as prince of an African kingdom would make casting a white guy to play the Black Panther kind of suspect.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Rather than have the thread become about my shoddy work of an OP.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I... don't think there were black Norwegians when the myths first came into being.
However, yes, I'd assume a god could just choose to look like whatever human. Hell, Heimdal might have chosen to look like Idris Elba. Hilarity.
This is simply an assertion. I don't buy it; it's not as though the audience was duped by the blackface. Justify your argument.
Nobody knows what Vin is. He's an ethnic enigma. And I'd watch him play Shaft.
My argument? That one should select actors that can actually portray features and conditions necessary to the plot of the story?
I'm comfortable calling it an artistic assertion.
Actors aren't amorphous props that can be shaped into any roll. You have to pick the right actor for the right part and in some roles, such as King, Sacajawea, Othello, Buddha, etc... race is part of picking the right actor, just like picking a woman is important for casting female rolls.
@those saying background matters: if storm's background is important to them, it will come across in the storyline. Perhaps an actor can use the role to discover something about themself, and it will help them give a great performance.
I could see some argument if this movie was supposed to be a semi-accurate portrayal of the myths. It isn't.
True, true. I don't know, I'm just wondering out loud so I'm open to people correcting me on all of this.
But when considering Gods, and also comic book characters whose (who's?) skin color/background isn't super important, it should be fine.
Like if we had a superhero named "Raeleus" and he was on the benefiting side of the South African apartheid, hence White South African, it wouldn't make sense to make him a Black South African who benefited from apartheid I don't think.
But Gods can be played with, I think.
I don't know, this is all super interesting to me.
yes in part it was. They chose small men with feminine figures who could pass off as women for the same reason.
Even if you can somehow get the audience to clearly understand that actor X is actually playing a Moor its going to get ridiculous when the characters keep referring to someone who looks like Ryan Reynolds as a moor or "black dog".