I think there are ways to dislike this casting decision without coming off all "rah rah racewar" like the CCC.
par exemple?
If one felt that Heimdall's characterization was deeply tied to his ethnic heritage, for example. If one viewed Heimdall as uniquely Nordic in some manner (such as taking his "whitest of the Aesir" title literally). I don't necessarily feel that way, but it's a potential avenue for dissent that doesn't imply racial inferiority in some form.
I think that we can agree that while there may be situations where these objections are reasonable, this isn't one of those situations. I hate to be on the site of stifling debate, but this does seem like an outcry that is more worth of derision than debate.
I think that the specific case of Heimdall is silly, yes. But as a concept I think it's worth debating.
For example, would Ryan Reynolds playing the Black Panther be more or less "weird" than a black Heimdall?
@styrofoam: do you think that people saw blackface and said "oh ok this is a black dude now it makes sense" ? No, they were willing to suspend their disbelief. If a character's background is important to them, it will be revealed in the plotline. Skin color does not tell you a plotline anyway besides metaphorically.
yes in part it was. They chose small men with feminine figures who could pass off as women for the same reason.
Even if you can somehow get the audience to clearly understand that actor X is actually playing a Moor its going to get ridiculous when the characters keep referring to someone who looks like Ryan Reynolds as a moor or "black dog".
That does not strike me as ridiculous because people do not go to plays looking for cinema verité
It is hardly difficult to get an audience watching a play about a Moor to understand that the white guy playing the moorish prince is in fact playing the moorish prince.
I think there are ways to dislike this casting decision without coming off all "rah rah racewar" like the CCC.
par exemple?
If one felt that Heimdall's characterization was deeply tied to his ethnic heritage, for example. If one viewed Heimdall as uniquely Nordic in some manner (such as taking his "whitest of the Aesir" title literally). I don't necessarily feel that way, but it's a potential avenue for dissent that doesn't imply racial inferiority in some form.
I think that we can agree that while there may be situations where these objections are reasonable, this isn't one of those situations. I hate to be on the site of stifling debate, but this does seem like an outcry that is more worth of derision than debate.
I think that the specific case of Heimdall is silly, yes. But as a concept I think it's worth debating.
For example, would Ryan Reynolds playing the Black Panther be more or less "weird" than a black Heimdall?
How important is the Black Panther's heritage/skin color? He's an African prince right?
I remember Black people being upset Rachel Weisz played Nefertiti in The Mummy Returns because Nefertiti was supposed to be Black. But none of that other stuff in the movies exists in real life, so it could be an alternate reality.
I think maybe that's what's going to get me. Alternate universes. I think in that case you can play with everything. Like a "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" got switched around in "Guess Who". You could have a White Othello, but he better be Christian, and in a Black society that's as powerful as the society in the original play.
Mim on
0
Options
Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
@styrofoam: do you think that people saw blackface and said "oh ok this is a black dude now it makes sense" ? No, they were willing to suspend their disbelief. If a character's background is important to them, it will be revealed in the plotline. Skin color does not tell you a plotline anyway besides metaphorically.
yes in part it was. They chose small men with feminine figures who could pass off as women for the same reason.
Even if you can somehow get the audience to clearly understand that actor X is actually playing a Moor its going to get ridiculous when the characters keep referring to someone who looks like Ryan Reynolds as a moor or "black dog".
theater is ridiculous dude. you can't just arbitrarily pick out what can be played and what cannot.
Would you go see the Merchant of Venice and think "but ian mackellan isn't racist!"
or "but ian mackellan can't have kids he like dudes!"
@styrofoam: do you think that people saw blackface and said "oh ok this is a black dude now it makes sense" ? No, they were willing to suspend their disbelief. If a character's background is important to them, it will be revealed in the plotline. Skin color does not tell you a plotline anyway besides metaphorically.
yes in part it was. They chose small men with feminine figures who could pass off as women for the same reason.
Even if you can somehow get the audience to clearly understand that actor X is actually playing a Moor its going to get ridiculous when the characters keep referring to someone who looks like Ryan Reynolds as a moor or "black dog".
That does not strike me as ridiculous because people do not go to plays looking for cinema verité
It is hardly difficult to get an audience watching a play about a Moor to understand that the white guy playing the moorish prince is in fact playing the moorish prince.
You're confining this to plays which no one else is.
@styrofoam: do you think that people saw blackface and said "oh ok this is a black dude now it makes sense" ? No, they were willing to suspend their disbelief. If a character's background is important to them, it will be revealed in the plotline. Skin color does not tell you a plotline anyway besides metaphorically.
yes in part it was. They chose small men with feminine figures who could pass off as women for the same reason.
Even if you can somehow get the audience to clearly understand that actor X is actually playing a Moor its going to get ridiculous when the characters keep referring to someone who looks like Ryan Reynolds as a moor or "black dog".
That does not strike me as ridiculous because people do not go to plays looking for cinema verité
It is hardly difficult to get an audience watching a play about a Moor to understand that the white guy playing the moorish prince is in fact playing the moorish prince.
You're confining this to plays which no one else is.
And yet again you dodge a point you can't refute
Senjutsu on
0
Options
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited December 2010
isn't there a new version of the tempest where helen mirren plays prospero?
sometimes race or ethnicity is essential to the story and sometimes not. if the race/ ethnicity of an actor for whose character the race/ ethnicity is important does not convincingly match up with the story, then the story should probably be adapted such that it makes sense.
and sometimes a signifier is sufficient. the merchant of venice might not make a lot of sense if shylock isn't a jew, but then again the actor playing shylock doesn't necessarily need to be jewish (though odds are he will be :P ). olivier played a fine othello in blackface.
anyways, what i am getting at is that the thor movie is probably gonna suck for 100 reasons that do not involve heimdall being black.
@styrofoam: do you think that people saw blackface and said "oh ok this is a black dude now it makes sense" ? No, they were willing to suspend their disbelief. If a character's background is important to them, it will be revealed in the plotline. Skin color does not tell you a plotline anyway besides metaphorically.
yes in part it was. They chose small men with feminine figures who could pass off as women for the same reason.
Even if you can somehow get the audience to clearly understand that actor X is actually playing a Moor its going to get ridiculous when the characters keep referring to someone who looks like Ryan Reynolds as a moor or "black dog".
That does not strike me as ridiculous because people do not go to plays looking for cinema verité
It is hardly difficult to get an audience watching a play about a Moor to understand that the white guy playing the moorish prince is in fact playing the moorish prince.
You're confining this to plays which no one else is.
And yet again you dodge a point you can't refute
That someone who is going to a play of Othello already knows the story in all likelihood? I'm not saying you can't, or that it can't be done, just that its not the best idea.
I think there are ways to dislike this casting decision without coming off all "rah rah racewar" like the CCC.
par exemple?
If one felt that Heimdall's characterization was deeply tied to his ethnic heritage, for example. If one viewed Heimdall as uniquely Nordic in some manner (such as taking his "whitest of the Aesir" title literally). I don't necessarily feel that way, but it's a potential avenue for dissent that doesn't imply racial inferiority in some form.
I think that we can agree that while there may be situations where these objections are reasonable, this isn't one of those situations. I hate to be on the site of stifling debate, but this does seem like an outcry that is more worth of derision than debate.
I think that the specific case of Heimdall is silly, yes. But as a concept I think it's worth debating.
For example, would Ryan Reynolds playing the Black Panther be more or less "weird" than a black Heimdall?
How important is the Black Panther's heritage/skin color? He's an African prince right?
I remember Black people being upset Rachel Weisz played Nefertiti in The Mummy Returns because Nefertiti was supposed to be Black. But none of that other stuff in the movies exists in real life, so it could be an alternate reality.
I think maybe that's what's going to get me. Alternate universes. I think in that case you can play with everything. Like a "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" got switched around in "Guess Who". You could have a White Othello, but he better be Christian, and in a Black society that's as powerful as the society in the original play.
He was the prince of Wakanda, the fictional uberAfrica of the Marvel Universe.
The character himself was also rather tied up in racial politics and their allegory in the Marvel Universe. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that as a character he's more tied to his race than anyone in the Marvel Norse Pantheon.
I mean, Thor and Loki have both been women at some point. There's a Cherokee Valkyrie. It's not like they haven't been through some changes as a fictional culture.
That someone who is going to a play of Othello already knows the story in all likelihood? I'm not saying you can't, or that it can't be done, just that its not the best idea.
This seems to represent a shift in tone.
Earlier, you are putting forth some sort of moral imperative.
That someone who is going to a play of Othello already knows the story in all likelihood? I'm not saying you can't, or that it can't be done, just that its not the best idea.
This seems to represent a shift in tone.
Earlier, you are putting forth some sort of moral imperative.
You said it should not be done.
Now it's just not the best idea?
Should not in the same way you probably shouldn't be trying to make a hip hop interpretation of Romeo and Juliet, not should not in the same way you probably shouldn't be putting your actors in black face.
I have been operating under the idea this is a discussion of artistic merit and planning, not some sort of moral conundrum.
Styrofoam Sammich on
0
Options
Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
If it was important to the character's background, it'd matter. Like someone brought up Storm, her African heritage IS important. Othello's heritage IS important. Nightcrawler's heritage IS important.
But a lot of comic book characters are just templates that can be adjusted from time to time and as long as it doesn't interfere with their cultural upbringing, it's fine.
With religious texts I think its also fine to play around with skin tones and not just have a homogeneous look for everyone involved in the story, they're still templates. I'd also like to assume that there are Black Norwegians, not a lot but some.
So in that case if the Norse background WAS important (but a lot of people are saying that storyline wise, they're not even the same gods they just happen to share names), isn't it still possible to have a Black Norwegian God? There must be Black Norwegians, right?
I... don't think there were black Norwegians when the myths first came into being.
However, yes, I'd assume a god could just choose to look like whatever human. Hell, Heimdal might have chosen to look like Idris Elba. Hilarity.
True, true. I don't know, I'm just wondering out loud so I'm open to people correcting me on all of this.
That someone who is going to a play of Othello already knows the story in all likelihood? I'm not saying you can't, or that it can't be done, just that its not the best idea.
This seems to represent a shift in tone.
Earlier, you are putting forth some sort of moral imperative.
You said it should not be done.
Now it's just not the best idea?
Should not in the same way you probably shouldn't be trying to make a hip hop interpretation of Romeo and Juliet, not should not in the same way you probably shouldn't be putting your actors in black face.
I have been operating under the idea this is a discussion of artistic merit and planning, not some sort of moral conundrum.
Well, I suppose I had hoped this wasn't the case.
Because when it comes to discussions of artistic merit and planning, it's tough to beat out Shakespeare, as many others have already pointed out.
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited December 2010
Two posses, both alike in dignity,
In fair Compton, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where gangsta blood makes gangsta hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd g's take their life;
Shakespeare was in different times. It may have been acceptable to put your actors in black face to cast black roles back then but that's hardly an acceptable idea now.
Shakespeare was in different times. It may have been acceptable to put your actors in black face to cast black roles back then but that's hardly an acceptable idea now.
Can be if done right!
See: Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder.
And is it weird that now I actually kind of want to see a hip-hop Romeo and Juliet?
Anyways, my stance is: If its an alternate universe play with it and make the changes make sense. Don't put a White Othello in a White Society, it has to be Black.
If you're dealing with the original universe, keep it the way it is.
Shakespeare was in different times. It may have been acceptable to put your actors in black face to cast black roles back then but that's hardly an acceptable idea now.
Can be if done right!
See: Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder.
And is it weird that now I actually kind of want to see a hip-hop Romeo and Juliet?
Anyways, my stance is: If its an alternate universe play with it and make the changes make sense. Don't put a White Othello in a White Society, it has to be Black.
If you're dealing with the original universe, keep it the way it is.
There is no "original universe" in acting. It's all an alternate universe.
Shakespeare was in different times. It may have been acceptable to put your actors in black face to cast black roles back then but that's hardly an acceptable idea now.
Can be if done right!
See: Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder.
And is it weird that now I actually kind of want to see a hip-hop Romeo and Juliet?
Anyways, my stance is: If its an alternate universe play with it and make the changes make sense. Don't put a White Othello in a White Society, it has to be Black.
If you're dealing with the original universe, keep it the way it is.
There is no "original universe" in acting. It's all an alternate universe.
You wouldn't say that the original universe of Othello is a Moor with Black skin dealing with life in a White Society?
Shakespeare was in different times. It may have been acceptable to put your actors in black face to cast black roles back then but that's hardly an acceptable idea now.
You are really caught up on black face.
Black face is not the issue.
I'll quote Senj from earlier that I didn't see you respond to in a coherent manner.
I'm wondering how many of these genetic paragons are descended from English, Scottish, or any other Europeans who were brutally slaughtered by the Vikings? Or perhaps the Christians who forcefully stripped the Norse of their pagan religion?
Two posses, both alike in dignity,
In fair Compton, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where gangsta blood makes gangsta hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd g's take their life;
Shakespeare was in different times. It may have been acceptable to put your actors in black face to cast black roles back then but that's hardly an acceptable idea now.
You are really caught up on black face.
Black face is not the issue.
I'll quote Senj from earlier that I didn't see you respond to in a coherent manner.
This is simply an assertion. I don't buy it; it's not as though the audience was duped by the blackface. Justify your argument.
You just said it was an artistic assertion, and provided no evidence beyond restating the points in contention.
I'll justify it by saying you should go for at least a minimum level of parity with reality if you're doing some stories, and Othello's skin color is part of that. Its a good idea to make sure the story makes sense and is easy to follow, in some cases that means making sure the actor looks like the character they're playing.
I keep bringing up black face because Sen keeps asking how the play could have worked to begin with if the actors were all white males.
Styrofoam Sammich on
0
Options
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
I'm wondering how many of these genetic paragons are descended from English, Scottish, or any other Europeans who were brutally slaughtered by the Vikings? Or perhaps the Christians who forcefully stripped the Norse of their pagan religion?
as an aside, i have heard that some white supremacist groups are trying to revive the norse gods as a pseudo-religion because they've pretty much had it with hearing how peaceful and semetic that hippy jesus was all the time.
I'm wondering how many of these genetic paragons are descended from English, Scottish, or any other Europeans who were brutally slaughtered by the Vikings? Or perhaps the Christians who forcefully stripped the Norse of their pagan religion?
as an aside, i have heard that some white supremacist groups are trying to revive the norse gods as a pseudo-religion because they've pretty much had it with hearing how peaceful and semetic that hippy jesus was all the time.
Posts
For example, would Ryan Reynolds playing the Black Panther be more or less "weird" than a black Heimdall?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
That does not strike me as ridiculous because people do not go to plays looking for cinema verité
It is hardly difficult to get an audience watching a play about a Moor to understand that the white guy playing the moorish prince is in fact playing the moorish prince.
How important is the Black Panther's heritage/skin color? He's an African prince right?
I remember Black people being upset Rachel Weisz played Nefertiti in The Mummy Returns because Nefertiti was supposed to be Black. But none of that other stuff in the movies exists in real life, so it could be an alternate reality.
I think maybe that's what's going to get me. Alternate universes. I think in that case you can play with everything. Like a "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" got switched around in "Guess Who". You could have a White Othello, but he better be Christian, and in a Black society that's as powerful as the society in the original play.
theater is ridiculous dude. you can't just arbitrarily pick out what can be played and what cannot.
Would you go see the Merchant of Venice and think "but ian mackellan isn't racist!"
or "but ian mackellan can't have kids he like dudes!"
You're confining this to plays which no one else is.
Either that or really confused.
Because seriously...
Is this some Orlandu shit or something?
You should be talking about Thor: A Documentary.
And yet again you dodge a point you can't refute
sometimes race or ethnicity is essential to the story and sometimes not. if the race/ ethnicity of an actor for whose character the race/ ethnicity is important does not convincingly match up with the story, then the story should probably be adapted such that it makes sense.
and sometimes a signifier is sufficient. the merchant of venice might not make a lot of sense if shylock isn't a jew, but then again the actor playing shylock doesn't necessarily need to be jewish (though odds are he will be :P ). olivier played a fine othello in blackface.
anyways, what i am getting at is that the thor movie is probably gonna suck for 100 reasons that do not involve heimdall being black.
That someone who is going to a play of Othello already knows the story in all likelihood? I'm not saying you can't, or that it can't be done, just that its not the best idea.
The character himself was also rather tied up in racial politics and their allegory in the Marvel Universe. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that as a character he's more tied to his race than anyone in the Marvel Norse Pantheon.
I mean, Thor and Loki have both been women at some point. There's a Cherokee Valkyrie. It's not like they haven't been through some changes as a fictional culture.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
This seems to represent a shift in tone.
Earlier, you are putting forth some sort of moral imperative.
You said it should not be done.
Now it's just not the best idea?
Should not in the same way you probably shouldn't be trying to make a hip hop interpretation of Romeo and Juliet, not should not in the same way you probably shouldn't be putting your actors in black face.
I have been operating under the idea this is a discussion of artistic merit and planning, not some sort of moral conundrum.
right because west side story was such a critical failure
why can't there be a hip-hop interpretation again?
like cripulets and montebloods
IIRC, there may actually have been black Vikings.
Jesus Christ you clearly understand what I was getting at is it necessary to nit pick the fucking example?
Well, I suppose I had hoped this wasn't the case.
Because when it comes to discussions of artistic merit and planning, it's tough to beat out Shakespeare, as many others have already pointed out.
The Master Race never looks quite as masterful as I would expect.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
In fair Compton, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where gangsta blood makes gangsta hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd g's take their life;
Shakespeare was in different times. It may have been acceptable to put your actors in black face to cast black roles back then but that's hardly an acceptable idea now.
actually, I don't understand what you are getting at, SS, because, you keep jumping around when people provide arguments against you.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Can be if done right!
See: Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder.
And is it weird that now I actually kind of want to see a hip-hop Romeo and Juliet?
Anyways, my stance is: If its an alternate universe play with it and make the changes make sense. Don't put a White Othello in a White Society, it has to be Black.
If you're dealing with the original universe, keep it the way it is.
Frank Drebin will always be the hero.
There is no "original universe" in acting. It's all an alternate universe.
Thats the downside to dealing with 3+ people at a time.
There are "should not because its a bad idea" and "should not because its immoral". I was arguing the first, everyone assumed it was the second.
where you at?
Will we gotta get working on this script.
You wouldn't say that the original universe of Othello is a Moor with Black skin dealing with life in a White Society?
You are really caught up on black face.
Black face is not the issue.
I'll quote Senj from earlier that I didn't see you respond to in a coherent manner.
You just said it was an artistic assertion, and provided no evidence beyond restating the points in contention.
It's only a bad idea of the actor sucks. Otherwise, the narrative rests on its own merits.
I would watch this play.
Reminds me of Two Gentlemen of Lebowski, but in reverse.
No, because it's already an alternate universe because Othello is a work of fiction. Its very nature is to be an alternative universe.
I'll justify it by saying you should go for at least a minimum level of parity with reality if you're doing some stories, and Othello's skin color is part of that. Its a good idea to make sure the story makes sense and is easy to follow, in some cases that means making sure the actor looks like the character they're playing.
I keep bringing up black face because Sen keeps asking how the play could have worked to begin with if the actors were all white males.
as an aside, i have heard that some white supremacist groups are trying to revive the norse gods as a pseudo-religion because they've pretty much had it with hearing how peaceful and semetic that hippy jesus was all the time.