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Coping with baldness

baldaltbaldalt Registered User new member
edited June 2011 in Help / Advice Forum
I've attempted to delay this for years, but I finally must admit it. For a while I told myself my hair was thinning from stress, not enough sleep. Yesterday I noticed that, for the first time, my scalp was sunburned. I am going bald. I am also having a really hard time coping with this.

I am 26 years old. The hair at the crown of my head is pretty much gone. I don't even really notice it unless I do some serious mirror work, but I always know it's there (or rather, not there). At first my mother noticed and suggested I use rogaine. Then other people started pointing it out when I worked as a server. What I've got left isn't in horrible shape.

I need to do something about this... either mentally or physically. At this point I think it's gotta be mental. I'm having a really hard time coping with this. I know, I know... it's an extremely vain thing to be concerned with.

I'm in a pretty good spot in my life right now, in many ways. I just moved into my own place (no roommates), I have a fantastic job that I started earlier this year, I have many great friends and I've gotten much MUCH more healthy than I had been in the past few years (a lot less drinking, quit smoking cigarettes, been exercising regularly). I've never really been out of shape or overweight. I've been told by many girls, with some of them a few years younger than me (20-22) that I'm a very good looking guy. I make friends very easily, most everyone enjoys my company after they get to know me. My family is extremely supportive and we're all very close. I've had an extremely fortunate life and I feel like it's stupid of me to get so down about it... but I really can't help it.

However, my hair is constantly on my mind (:lol:). It always bothers me when someone is behind me, that they might notice. Instead of bending over to pick something up, sometimes I'll squat so I won't reveal the spot. When I see someone else with a nice full head of hair I get jealous and depressed about myself.

I haven't been in a real relationship in over 3 years and I haven't been on a date in over a year. This is a whole other issue, but I feel like my confidence is taking a real hit from the hair loss and it's contributing negatively to other areas in my life.

I mean, realistically it's a circle on my scalp of maybe an inch and a half in radius that has little hair... but in my head it's much more than that.

I tried the rogaine thing... that didn't seem to work for me. I don't feel like I look very good in hats. I feel like it's pathetic to hang on desperately to what I have left, but I don't think I would look good with a shaved head (I wish there was a way I could preview how I look completely, and voluntarily, bald). I use head and shoulders shampoo for thinning hair and it's made what I have left look thicker.

I was diagnosed with clinical depression when I was younger and I've always been dealing with it, so I think this might be a contributing factor to why I'm having a hard time accepting myself. I feel like this post makes me out to be a horrible person. I'm really fortunate and I should be thankful for what I have (which I really am) but, dammit, my lack of hair has been getting me down for the last few years and I really need to make a change. I want to be happy with myself and what I see when I look in the mirror. But I really also believe that being bald is a huge negative. I might have some qualities that make me attractive, but they're all trumped by baldness.

So, I guess what I'm looking for is some advice for accepting my fate as a mid/late 20s bald guy. If you're a dude who has gone through what I'm going through... how did you feel about it? If your situation was similar to mine, have you felt better about yourself? How did you achieve that? Is there a solution that I'm not seeing? If you're a lady, is this a deal breaker for you?

tl;dr - I am a 26 year old dude that's going bald and having a hard time accepting this fact and being happy. Advice?

baldalt on
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    noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Shave your head.

    noir_blood on
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    HurtdogHurtdog Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    noir_blood wrote: »
    Shave your head.


    Use propecia, it will stop your hair loss and your hair will stay however it is now (which may not be too bad), but once you get off of it your hair loss will continue.

    Perhaps you can use propecia until you reach a time when you are comfortable with losing the rest of your hair, or until hair cloning becomes viable.

    Alternatively, there is Revivogen, which is applied topically and has no side effects.

    Hurtdog on
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    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited May 2011
    Everyone I know who's begun balding at a young age basically shaved their head. It's a bit of maintenance, but then you never have to worry about what your hair looks like, and you get used to it.

    One of my best friends started balding at about the same age you are. He tried growing his hair out, but never liked the way it looked (and it didn't look good), so he ended up just shaving it and I don't know that he really even thinks about it anymore.

    ceres on
    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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    HurtdogHurtdog Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Some people look like shit with a shaved head though

    Hurtdog on
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    LearnedHandLearnedHand Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2011
    I used to freak out as well. I started losing my hair when I was 21 and it was probably getting noticeable when I was about your age. When I was about 29, I started cutting it short. Maybe a five with the clippers. That helped, I guess.

    I'm in my early 30s now. So maybe a year ago, I took a look and holy shit...it was bad. It was really thin at the crown and the receding front was starting to join up with the crown. I can't believe nobody said anything.

    So I cut it down to a one guard. It was better but I still wasn't happy.

    So one day, I just decided to shave it. I should have done this ages ago.

    You read this all the time and I used to think that people were just talking shit. And these shaved head forums always have a creepy cult vibe like shaving your head is the answer to all of life's problems. And these people don't know my head. My body type isn't right for a shaved head and my skin isn't good and whatever.

    I was wrong. Except for the creepy vibe of these shaved head forums. Don't go to them.

    But speaking only for me, shaving was the answer. And this is something I've read many times. I feel much better, more confident, whatever. And I was afraid that black chicks and whatever wouldn't be keen on it what with the skinhead connection. But no, no problem. Indeed, I get more interest from women of all races.

    You can try Rogaine or whatever but from what I've read, that stuff is only good for maintaining what hair you have. And it's expensive. And you have to use it for the rest of your life. And it very well may not even maintain the hair. And you get erectile problems. I'd rather have no hair than a penis which doesn't work.

    So yeah, maybe shave your head.

    LearnedHand on
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    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited May 2011
    Hurtdog wrote: »
    Some people look like shit with a shaved head though

    That's... not really the point. It's a really easy (and really cheap) way to make the whole thing a non-issue, if it works out.

    OP, I don't know how you look with a shaved head, but if you aren't opposed to the idea of giving it a shot, it's a thing to try.

    I'm not male and I'm not you and I don't know what having some hair on your head if you can't have all of it means to you. I just know that the balding friends that I have who went this way are all happier with it than they were with a partial head of hair, and it just started out for them as "a thing to try". If you have flowing locks that you can't part with, then if you can afford it and it doesn't look bad as it is right now, a drug to stop the loss may be worth a shot.

    ceres on
    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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    LachrymiteLachrymite Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    There are shaved head forums? That's kind of weird.

    I started shaving my head around a year and a half ago and I think it was a very good decision. I wasn't even really balding too much, just a tiny bit of thinning, but my wife always really liked the shaved head look and encouraged me to just try it out. I had already been buzzing my hair closer and closer, so one day I was shaving my face and decided to just keep shaving. I haven't looked back since. I now kind of wish I was balding faster so there would be less to shave. :P

    You might not look good with a shaved head, but if you don't, just let it grow back out. It won't take more than a month before you are solidly out of shaved head territory. Not really a lot to lose by trying it.

    I would not try using propecia, I knew one guy that did that and ended up being impotent the entire time he was on it.

    Lachrymite on
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    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    generally when I see guys that are obviously balding, it looks best when it's short or buzzed. Makes it look masculine instead of 'I'm in denial about my thinning hair'

    Casual Eddy on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Shaving it or cutting it short are going to be your best options in my opinion. I would definitely give that a try first over risking the various possible side effects I'm seeing associated with Propecia.

    And honestly, don't worry about it too much. It's not nearly as big of a deal as you think. My family's full of guys that started balding in their late teens and fiveheads. No one lets it affect their confidence so it's never been an issue.

    Quid on
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    baldaltbaldalt Registered User new member
    edited May 2011
    Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

    Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm feeling right now. It'll be better to accept what it is and deal with it rather than remain in denial. I feel like I'm coming to terms with that. Maybe I'll get someone to photoshop me being completely shaven.

    I've never even buzzed my hair, let alone totally gotten rid of it. I do keep it short for the most part. Thing is, I think that if you look at me dead on you wouldn't even notice I was bald. It's really just the crown that's obvious. I'm 6'1" also, so usually I'm tall enough that people aren't looking down at me. However, it's mentally ingrained in my head that I am balding so I think the fact that it's there is enough to mess with whatever confidence I have.

    The real reason I haven't tried this yet is that I'm afraid that it will actually grow back with less hair if I decide I don't like it so I would be worse off.

    Has anyone shaved their head and then decided it wasn't the way they wanted to go? Also, if I do decide to do this can anyone recommend a good grooming kit for keeping your head shaved?

    baldalt on
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    baldaltbaldalt Registered User new member
    edited May 2011
    Quid wrote: »
    And honestly, don't worry about it too much. It's not nearly as big of a deal as you think. My family's full of guys that started balding in their late teens and fiveheads. No one lets it affect their confidence so it's never been an issue.

    This is one of my biggest issues. It is a big deal to me, even though I know this statement is true Quid. It is affecting my confidence and I'd like to learn how to overcome that.

    baldalt on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Shaving your head isn't going to accelerate your hair loss, so you don't need to worry about that.

    It's become trendy/fashionable for men to wear their hair short, and baldness isn't the issue it used to be in this regard. Your barber/stylist/whatever can help you out with some kind of short fade that'll look good with your hairline.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    LewieP's MummyLewieP's Mummy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Lewie's daddy started going bald quite young. So did his brother. LPD just cut his hair short, his brother grew a comb-over, known as a Bobby Charlton here.
    It looks so silly! IMHO, I'd rather be with a man who accepts who he is, rather than tries to pretend he's something he's not, short hair on blokes can look great, and feels good, too. I cut LPD's hair 6mm long with clippers, he looks really good with it that short.

    LewieP's Mummy on
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    Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2011
    noir_blood wrote: »
    Shave your head.

    This right here. Just embrace it. Any medications you can take will only halt the hair loss. Nothing will actually grow it back, so it's time to just embrace what you've got. Shave it, and see how it goes. If you really don't like it, you'll be back to where you are now in about a month or two anyway.

    I started getting my first grey hairs when I was 13, so I got to get all my freaking out done over that. As such, I told myself that if I ever went bald, I'd just shave it all and be done with it. Sadly, a year into my 30s, after some pretty stressful medical issues, what had originally just been thinning had developed into actual baldness, so I've gotten rid of it all. It felt a little weird at first, but honestly, it feels perfectly normal now, and I'm actually a lot more self conscious when it's grown out a little bit, not least because it's a lot more obvious that I'm bald.

    Fight it or embrace it, but the fact is, nothing is going to change it. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll feel better about yourself.

    Bionic Monkey on
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    Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2011
    baldalt wrote: »
    The real reason I haven't tried this yet is that I'm afraid that it will actually grow back with less hair if I decide I don't like it so I would be worse off.

    This is physiologically impossible unless you're shaving down into your dermis. Don't let this thought affect your ultimate decision.

    Bionic Monkey on
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    taliosfalcontaliosfalcon Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    noir_blood wrote: »
    Shave your head.

    This right here. Just embrace it. Any medications you can take will only halt the hair loss. Nothing will actually grow it back, so it's time to just embrace what you've got.

    That's not strictly true, both rogaine and propecia will regrow hair that's been lost, they don't work for everyone but for a sizeable proportion of the population they will. That being said rogaine is a pretty big hassle and propecia can come with some very nasty (and permanent) side effects so yeah, shavings its the best option

    taliosfalcon on
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    Battle JesusBattle Jesus Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I started balding at 17. Consider yourself lucky that you almost made it to 30 without balding.

    Anyway, I maintain a super short buzz cut, and I'd recommend it if you are nervous about shaving your head. It's pretty much non-committal head shaving. I find most people are pleasantly surprised with how good a buzz cut can look on them. That, and if you really feel adventurous it's just a quick trip to shaved-heads-ville.

    I know I felt about a billion times more confident once I started buzzing my head. That, and when I apply shampoo every morning, I get to vigorously rub my hands over the buzzed hair. It feels awesome, and hasn't gotten old in 7 years so, bonus?

    But yeah, like everyone is saying above me - just embrace the balding. Baldness is common enough that people really don't notice it unless you make a big deal out of it (skullets, combovers, etc). Solution: don't make it a big deal. Keep the hair short, and no one will care.

    And as for overcoming the psychological effects of balding - well, you just have to realize that it's not actually that big a deal, and it happens to EVERYONE. It's getting pretty funny now that a lot of my friends are starting to see their hairlines recede or thin. They all have the same sort of "end of the world" freakout, and eventually they realize that no one actually cares and they stop freaking out.

    Battle Jesus on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Another vote for a short buzz.

    I suffer from psoriasis which means that my hair started thinning really early in the front. Couple of months ago I shaved it and I got an immediate positive response. Couldn't imagine going back.

    Kyougu on
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    ReverbReverb Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    As soon as I started balding at the ripe old age of 22 I shaved my head and never looked back, and I can honestly say that given the choice I would take a clean shaven head over a head full of hair any day. In my opinion I think it's better to embrace your balding and either shave your head or buzz it really short rather than sport the perpetually thinning hair look.

    Reverb on
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    KelorKelor Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I can appreciate what it feels like mate. I started losing hair when I was about twenty years old but didn't really notice it all that much at first. Then a few years later I'd go to wash my hair and just have a dozen or more hairs on my hands when I finished. All my cousins who are guys on my mother's side of the family have practically no hair and intially I felt really uncomfortable about it. Losing your hair that early feels unfair and is pretty rough.

    I had the tips bleached, which made it less noticeable but eventually I just decided "you know what? It's not my fault and I'm not going to end up as that dude with a comb over." I went down to the local hairdresser and got it cut down to a four. That felt a bit long so I went to a three, then a two, then a one. That doesn't quite cut it (pun intended) after a week so I shave it down to a .5 once a week now. Once your head tans up and you get used to being rained on directly on your skin it feels great. Just a word of warning, (and experience) make sure you put sunscreen on your head when you go to the beach. It didn't occur to me the first time and I spent a week with a blazing neon red skull as a lesson.

    As Battle Jesus says it can go a long way in boosting your self confidence. After I shaved it the first time and went in to work and to see friends I'd get an "oh, you shaved head? Why'd you do that?" Now I just joke about it and say that I was beating it to the punch.

    And on the upside, a lot of women love running their hands over a shaved head.

    Kelor on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    rain on your head is one of the best things about keeping your hair really short (that and not having to deal with a bunch of wet hair)

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2011
    It is really nice not having to mess with your hair in the morning anymore. If I don't have time for a shower one morning, I don't feel like I have greasy hair for the rest of the day.

    Bionic Monkey on
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    Battle JesusBattle Jesus Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Seriously. I can not stress this enough.

    You know how it feels rubbing your hands on a freshly shaved head?

    Every. Morning.

    Battle Jesus on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    NotYouNotYou Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I'm in your boat at 25. So are a few of my friends. Eventually, you will come to terms with it. I know what it's like to think about that crap constantly whenever you look in a reflection, but it's just a part of getting older. We all fall apart. Just be happy you have your health. There are about a billion worse things that could go wrong with your body. Hair loss should be the least of your concerns. These days, no one gives a shit. Hell, look at bruce willis or jason statham; good looking bald guys right?

    As far as shaving your head, it doesn't work for everyone, but if it works for you, more power to you.

    Rogaine and propecia. I guess I'm against them for a couple reasons. One, it's a daily reminder of your inability to accept what you look like. Psychologically I don't think that's healthy. Two, they're not exactly effective. And lastly, they cost a lot of money. Smoking 3 packs a day would probably be cheaper.

    Just come to terms with it. Hell, my baldest friend has a hotter girlfriend than I've ever gotten :)

    NotYou on
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    AddaAdda LondonRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    There is nothing wrong with just trying out a short haircut. I shave mine around once a week with clippers so I guess that balances out against the free time i get from not tending my hair every day.

    Embrace it and it will be much easier for you. As someone said above, no one else is really going to give a shit and plenty of good looking guys have short hair.

    Adda on
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    EntriechEntriech ? ? ? ? ? Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Another vote from someone who started going bald around age 24. I'm almost 31 now and my receding hairline's met up nicely with the top of my head. I've been short buzzing my hair (with a #1) for about the same amount of time, and it is literally one of the only things you can do that's going to make you look good.

    This is also one of the best things you can do for your confidence, because it shows everyone that you're acknowledging your hair loss. And a short buzz requires a lot less maintenance than a full shave. I'd say I get my hair cut around once every 3 to 4 weeks depending on if I'm looking a little shaggy everywhere.

    Also as you've discovered, lack of hair exposes you to sunburn risk. Make sure when you're outside for moderate to long periods of time you're sporting a hat and or using sunscreen.

    Entriech on
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    Blake TBlake T Do you have enemies then? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Look, even if you don't like how you look with a shaved head.

    Hair grows back.

    If you don't like it after a month or two you wouldn't be able to even tell.

    Blake T on
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    RynaRyna Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    DON'T try to hide it

    I have a friend who does and it DOES NOT hide a damn thing

    Ryna on
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    CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Ryna wrote: »
    DON'T try to hide it

    I have a friend who does and it DOES NOT hide a damn thing

    Yeah, I think men look in the mirror and think that since they can't see the top of their head, no-one else can. So they "comb-over" a few strands and because of the angle they look at their own head in the mirror, they think that hides it.

    I'm a pretty short woman but I can still see comb-overs even on tall men.

    Short hair or shaved heads look best on balding men. It doesn't have to be shaved, as long as it is short.

    CelestialBadger on
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    DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Although a buzzcut all the way to shaved to the skin all constitute "shaved heads" the look can be dramatically different within that last inch of hair. For example I don't like my hair to be more than about 1/8th of an inch, and I really don't like it when it gets past 1/4 of an inch. Not sure if it's the look, or if it makes a receding hairline more apparent, but I like it best right after I use the clippers sans guards: so like 1/16th inch or possibly less. Shaved to skin looks good too, but I prefer a little fuzz.

    The only people I know who've shaved their heads and let their hair grow back are people with full heads of hair. Though some of those guys with full heads of hair have chosen to remain shaved.

    Djeet on
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    SliderSlider Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I'm 34 and have been shaving my head since I was 21. You can't fight it, man. For many of us, there came a time when we realized having a full head of hair will soon be a memory. At first, I tried Rogaine, but like others have mentioned, it's too expensive and doesn't really work, anyway.

    You can either cut it really short or shave it off. Fuck. That reminds me. I need to shave today. Meh.

    Slider on
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    MrVyngaardMrVyngaard Live From New Etoile Straight Outta SosariaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Yeah, it feels really awkward when you first realize you're thinning/balding/receding. Shaving to a tight short cut or bald is the best bet, like the others have said. I also speak from experience with this...

    MrVyngaard on
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    NamrokNamrok Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    +1 for shaving or keeping it short. I'm 27 and my hair has been thinning every since my dad died in 2007. Stress I guess. I try to keep my hair short. If it keeps getting much worse I'll be shaving it. I also try to keep in shape since the last thing I want to be is a bald fat guy.

    Look at it this way. Think of all the badass actors that are bald or balding. Jason Statham, Bruce Willis, Vin Diesel (even if I hate the guy), Samuel L Jackson. You're in good company.

    Namrok on
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    schussschuss Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Yep, even Jude Law is balding, and he's a pretty boy. If you're genetically prone to it, just be happy for the time you had together. Mine is in the midst of the long, slow retreat as well, so don't worry.

    schuss on
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    UltimanecatUltimanecat Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The reason baldness forums probably have a creepy, cult-like vibe to you is because there's just an awful lot of back patting going on. They're a bit like other support groups in that some people feel better about dealing with something they see as an issue with other like-minded individuals. I dare say you think this becomes creepy because you are still in the mindset that being bald is something to be ashamed of.

    Anyways, as others have said, the most reasonable course is to embrace it and cut it short or shave it. I personally feel the same about taking drugs for baldness as I do for most any other cosmetic procedure - a very expensive way to avoid your hangups instead of dealing with them. Of course, I also don't begrudge anyone the right to feel better about themselves, so do what you feel is right.

    I will take the time out here to be just a little bit of a male chauvinist and appeal to your manhood:

    You're bald because you're a man, and some men go bald. Time to cowboy up and put it behind you.

    Ultimanecat on
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2011
    I'm in the same boat, maybe not quite as much. Just deal with it mentally.

    If you're that concerned about your appearance, channel that concern into areas that you can more dramatically do something about - go for runs, do some weight lifting, and dress well.

    Doc on
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    susansusan Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    +1 for short buzz/shaved head.

    As an aside, I know you mentioned you don't feel like you look good in hats, but the 'shaved head plus a fedora' look is pretty classy. Hair gets in the way of a lot of good hat looks. Play around with some new hats and styles once you've taken the plunge, and you may be pleasantly surprised.

    susan on
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    IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited May 2011
    When my hair was falling out I bit the bullet and cut it all off. Im a girl and it was a pretty rough choice for me, and its far less well-received on the female side. In the end, I was way more confident because I had the problem under my control, It was really worth it.

    Go hat shopping though, Your head will get cold. Its also a nice time to lightly update your wardrobe, to increase your confidence factor. New hair cut, new outfit, strut around like a boss. It'll feel good.

    Iruka on
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2011
    susan wrote: »
    +1 for short buzz/shaved head.

    As an aside, I know you mentioned you don't feel like you look good in hats, but the 'shaved head plus a fedora' look is pretty classy. Hair gets in the way of a lot of good hat looks. Play around with some new hats and styles once you've taken the plunge, and you may be pleasantly surprised.
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    Doc on
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    LearnedHandLearnedHand Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2011
    The reason baldness forums probably have a creepy, cult-like vibe to you is because there's just an awful lot of back patting going on. They're a bit like other support groups in that some people feel better about dealing with something they see as an issue with other like-minded individuals. I dare say you think this becomes creepy because you are still in the mindset that being bald is something to be ashamed of.

    Well, that or they have a cult-like vibe because they're creepy places full of creepy dudes talking about baldness all day. What's the best lube, is Headblade worth the money, shiny or matte finish, et cetera. There's really only so much you can talk about re: baldness.

    And they all have real life pictures of themselves as their avatars. And I don't mean 80x80 size. These forums tend to be quite generous with avatar sizes. So huge pictures of these dudes.

    They clearly have hangups about it. I mean, the original poster here is worried about his hair and I'm sympathetic. But why are 50 year old dudes who have been bald for 20 years going on about the virtues of head shaving day in and day out? Don't they have interests outside of hair removal?

    There's also a lot of promotion of baldness as some really great look and even if these dudes weren't balding, they'd still shave their heads because all the chicks dig it. It's not reality. Shaving your head is a solution to balding. But better still is having a full head of hair.

    It's something you can't control though and it's not a big deal so there it is.

    LearnedHand on
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