There's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic, but you don't want to raise a stink about it and then look foolish a month or two later. Hell, I didn't say a goddamn word about my weight attempts until people noticed that I was actually smaller.
And even now, nearly a year later, I'm still struggling to do it. So yeah, it's hard.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
There's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic, but you don't want to raise a stink about it and then look foolish a month or two later.
Hell, I didn't say a goddamn word about my weight attempts until people noticed that I was actually smaller.
Well for this thread, I was basically just all, "yeah, this website WILL get you started", and was just surprised at the, "No it won't, shut up" response.
As for how I handle the 'getting healthy' question in my personal life: I've gone the route of saying nothing, and I've gone the route of telling everyone about it.
I think I'm slightly more on the side of telling people, especially people in your family who like to show their love with food. Though come to think of it, with certain sabotaging personalities, it's better not to say "I'm trying to lose weight", because then they will immediately start bringing things to tempt you to eat them. It's a tricky thing. Depending on who I'm dealing with, I might just end up saying, "I'm sorry, I can't have that donut because I'm having a blood sugar problems right now. Thanks, though" and that will be the end of it, they won't try to push it on me anymore because suddenly it's become medical.
I don't buy into the 'don't tell anyone' strictly for pride reasons, though. Like that I'll be embarassed if I fail. If I'm embarassed to tell people because I'm afraid of failing, then I'm in the wrong head space for losing weight. There are some people who can support me in this goal, people at work, friends and family, and if I don't let them in that this is the way things are for me now, then they can't help me. Work support is particularly good for me right now, because there are several in my office who are working on healthier lifestyles, and we can share advice about the topic.
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
"Hey, I just lost 10 lbs!"
"Good for you, let me know if you haven't gained it back +5 in two years."
Hah, sadly if this was your response you're probably a logical thinker. Losing weight is hard, keeping it off is harder still. Got to find a physical activity you enjoy, so you don't get bored. And plan for when you get bored with that, so you can move to something else.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
"Hey, I just lost 10 lbs!"
"Good for you, let me know if you haven't gained it back +5 in two years."
Hah, sadly if this was your response you're probably a logical thinker. Losing weight is hard, keeping it off is harder still.
Statistically true, yes. True even in my own experience.
A nice thing say to someone? Not even a little bit. Just because you know the statistical realities doesn't give you the right to be a colossal silly goose to someone. No reason to poke a hole in someone else's boat, you know? Actually, knowing that the statement in that case was likely a completely factual deduction is one of the reasons I included it as an example of what not to say to someone; just because you're being truthful doesn't mean you're not being insulting and counter-productive.
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I think the issue stems from how gamification sites like these don't lend themselves to long term dedication. If the only way you can convince yourself to do these things is by tricking yourself into thinking it's a game, what happens when you get bored of the game?
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
edited October 2011
Well leaving aside the assumption that just because you use a tool like this that must mean that you don't have any personal motivation at all: Isn't the whole point of Skinner boxes (in gaming, anyway) that they make you want to keep pressing the lever long after you've grown bored of it?
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I've often thought that if they would work out something like this, but with much more elaborate trappings, that you could really turn a lot of obesity around.
Like WoW. Just imagine if, instead of doing dailies, you could earn rep and gold by running laps or something. If you could get top-tier epics by running a marathon. I think about the amount of time people put into earning crud in that game, how much they WANT IT, and it seems like it could work.
You have to understand that Tube and myself have seen more people that I can count drift in and out of the weightlifting thread talking about all the things they were going to do only to never be heard from again, plus all the people that drift in and out and have never really made any progress. I've been weightlifting for four years now, and from my personal experience being pleased for yourself that you started is nice, but I'll be happy for you when it goes from being this thing you're stoked about doing to a thing that you just do. You've gotta figure out how to make that transition, because a lot of people don't.
A duck! on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
You have to understand that Tube and myself have seen more people that I can count drift in and out of the weightlifting thread talking about all the things they were going to do only to never be heard from again, plus all the people that drift in and out and have never really made any progress. I've been weightlifting for four years now, and from my personal experience being pleased for yourself that you started is nice, but I'll be happy for you when it goes from being this thing you're stoked about doing to a thing that you just do. You've gotta figure out how to make that transition, because a lot of people don't.
I actually looked back over my posts to see where I bragged/acted proud about exercising. I couldn't find it. My first post in this thread was about how cool that website is, how it uses operant conditioning to "motivate" people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do, and the proof that it could 'motivate' someone was that it motivated me to start up again after a long break. Following that post was a rather nasty personal comment directed towards me, out of no where and (from my perspective) in no way related to my initial post, which I at first tried to lightly deflect, assuming the person didn't realize how much of an implied insult was in their post. Most of my posts after that were trying to make it clear to that person that what they said was not cool.
(Also I am not a guy)
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Again, sites like these and the one centered around doing chores and whatnot are just tricking you into doing something you don't want to do. And as long as it's something you don't want to do, you'll never really get ahead. The second the game stops being engaging you'll stop doing it. It's just empty motivation, if you truly really want to lose weight or do your chores or whatever you have to be able to motivate yourself and get it done. As long as you rely on something external the second that external thing is gone you'll collapse and revert to your original behavior.
I gave up with the gym, it was something tedious that I didn't enjoy doing, it felt like work and I didn't want to pay money each month to work.
Now I climb and cycle. Cycling is how I get to work, I enjoy it and it doesn't seem like a chore. Climbing (largely bouldering) I find super relaxing, its challenging and sociable. Most of all, I love it and don't even think of it as exercise.
This isn't to say I think gyms are shit and people idiots for going to them. They're just not my cup of tea.
Again, sites like these and the one centered around doing chores and whatnot are just tricking you into doing something you don't want to do. And as long as it's something you don't want to do, you'll never really get ahead. The second the game stops being engaging you'll stop doing it. It's just empty motivation, if you truly really want to lose weight or do your chores or whatever you have to be able to motivate yourself and get it done. As long as you rely on something external the second that external thing is gone you'll collapse and revert to your original behavior.
There's this game on my phone. Maybe I should say "game." I downloaded it about 9 months ago, I think, when I was bored. There's different 'missions' you can do, by going to the mission and clicking on the button that says 'do it'; and there's a screen to 'attack' other people, by clicking on their name to 'attack'. But it's not like you see any graphics for those actions - you click on a button and get xp & loot, and that's what happens for every single button you press, unless you're out of 'energy' or unless the person you attacks 'defeats' you. When I signed up for Fitocracy, I thought about that game - because I've been playing it for 9months, and WHY have I been playing it for so long? (aside from simple insanity) The answer is that I want to do all the missions. Once I've completed the missions, then I'll stop playing. And there are a lot of missions. I've almost completed them, although I thought that once before and they added another layer that got me started all over again. There is nothing "engaging" about that game, and there never was. Why am I still playing it?
The short answer is that I'm a completionist. As long as there are missions/cheevos to complete, I'll want to continue completing them. No matter how boring they are. This is how Facebook games got me hooked for a while, and I had to force myself to delete them - force myself, even though I wasn't enjoying the games and wanted to stop.
Now don't get me wrong, I do plan to start taking Tap lessons again, and Tap was something I got great enjoyment out of. Heck, any dance-type aerobics class would be enjoyable enough that I would want to keep doing it: The problem is that I can't really do anything that high-impact yet, mostly because of how much extra weight I have on me. I'll damage myself doing those things, until I've slimmed down a bit. But right now the only exercises I can do safely are also going to tend towards the boring. Using my obsession with completionism to get me to exercise is pretty much a perfect fit. Maybe after a year, I'll run out of missions and cheevos, and then I won't play anymore - hopefully by then, I'll either have come to my own appreciation for exercise, or I'll be skinny enough to start taking tap without ruining my feet.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
You have to understand that Tube and myself have seen more people that I can count drift in and out of the weightlifting thread talking about all the things they were going to do only to never be heard from again, plus all the people that drift in and out and have never really made any progress. I've been weightlifting for four years now, and from my personal experience being pleased for yourself that you started is nice, but I'll be happy for you when it goes from being this thing you're stoked about doing to a thing that you just do. You've gotta figure out how to make that transition, because a lot of people don't.
I actually looked back over my posts to see where I bragged/acted proud about exercising. I couldn't find it. My first post in this thread was about how cool that website is, how it uses operant conditioning to "motivate" people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do, and the proof that it could 'motivate' someone was that it motivated me to start up again after a long break. Following that post was a rather nasty personal comment directed towards me, out of no where and (from my perspective) in no way related to my initial post, which I at first tried to lightly deflect, assuming the person didn't realize how much of an implied insult was in their post. Most of my posts after that were trying to make it clear to that person that what they said was not cool.
(Also I am not a guy)
Your first post was refuting Tube's point about Fitocracy not being able to motivate people into a lifestyle change. You claimed it had. He pointed out it hadn't yet.
What is this I don't even.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Your first post was refuting Tube's point about Fitocracy not being able to motivate people into a lifestyle change. You claimed it had. He pointed out it hadn't yet.
I guess maybe we have different definitions of what "motivation" means?
I didn't have plans to do a thing. Because of X, I made plans and did that thing. Did X not give me motivation in that case?
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Your first post was refuting Tube's point about Fitocracy not being able to motivate people into a lifestyle change. You claimed it had. He pointed out it hadn't yet.
This was a bold attempt to get across a very simple point to someone absolutely incapable of understanding it but I think we can all stop trying now.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
A journey of a thousand miles begins at the thousand mile point. :^:
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
A journey of a thousand miles is only successful at the thousand-mile point. And even that could be argued.
This is a good place to start looking for structure and motivation. I started looking for structure and motivation in WiiFit, and it put me on a good path.
They are right in saying that if you are eating right, staying active and living healthy two years from now, it won't be because of Fitocracy. It will be because of your guts. WiiFit and Fitocracy and motivational books aren't full of motivation. They're full of ideas and good starts. Only your guts will take you past the novelty phase.
That's all anyone is saying: motivation is guts, not novelty. But in the novelty, you may find guts you didn't know you had. Be prepared for the hump.
My issue with Fitocracy is that it's a tracking sheet with points, and the points are actually a detriment. You can keep doing the same thing day in and day out, and while you're really accomplishing less and less as time goes on, you keep accruing points and leveling up. If it tracked your points over time to ensure a gain (and theoretically, progress) it would be more useful. Right now it's an inefficient spreadsheet with a social network.
Even if your goal is tangential to what Fitocracy tracks (e.g. weight loss/gain) you usually have to keep improving at what you're doing to progress. You do the same intensity every day and you'll find that plateau pretty quickly. I think the points cover that up.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
A journey of a thousand miles is only successful at the thousand-mile point. And even that could be argued.
This is a good place to start looking for structure and motivation. I started looking for structure and motivation in WiiFit, and it put me on a good path.
They are right in saying that if you are eating right, staying active and living healthy two years from now, it won't be because of Fitocracy. It will be because of your guts. WiiFit and Fitocracy and motivational books aren't full of motivation. They're full of ideas and good starts. Only your guts will take you past the novelty phase.
That's all anyone is saying: motivation is guts, not novelty. But in the novelty, you may find guts you didn't know you had. Be prepared for the hump.
This is a very reasonable reply, and makes more sense than any of the other replies I've gotten in this thread. Kudos and thank you.
I would still argue that motivation is hardly ever just internal. I go to work because I am paid (external) and because I like it (internal). If I were not paid, I would not continue to go; if I hated it, I would find a different job. Insisting that if one doesn't take motivation exclusively from internal sources, then that means that they aren't motivated, is silly.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
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jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
My issue with Fitocracy is that it's a tracking sheet with points, and the points are actually a detriment. You can keep doing the same thing day in and day out, and while you're really accomplishing less and less as time goes on, you keep accruing points and leveling up. If it tracked your points over time to ensure a gain (and theoretically, progress) it would be more useful. Right now it's an inefficient spreadsheet with a social network.
Even if your goal is tangential to what Fitocracy tracks (e.g. weight loss/gain) you usually have to keep improving at what you're doing to progress. You do the same intensity every day and you'll find that plateau pretty quickly. I think the points cover that up.
Do they not increase the number of points needed between each level? If they did it would solve the problem because although you get a steady supply of points your leveling would continually slow down if you didn't push yourself.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Do they not increase the number of points needed between each level? If they did it would solve the problem because although you get a steady supply of points your leveling would continually slow down if you didn't push yourself.
Yes, you need more points per level as you level up.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I think the question is, does 20 pushups give you the same amount of points on Day 1 as it does on Day 50? It seem like it would, even though it probably shouldn't.
Though I guess the required XP to level going up would give you the impression of stalling out if you just never do more than 20 pushups in a set.
Will you folks dogpiling on Cambiata be pretty satisfied if she comes back and says, "Hey, your hard-hitting, down-to-earth facts finally penetrated my foolishly-optimistic brain. After a good think and a gorging, I've realized you're right. The probability that I can be all that I want myself to be is so low that I would be better off not trying. I'm coming to terms with the fact that life's obstacles are just too insurmountable. Pizza party at my house, guys. Hope you like self-loathing and endless tears of despair!"
Jesus. There are worse things than wishing and expecting the best of yourself. Her posts haven't shown breathless, unrealistic optimism. They've shown someone struggling who has the laudable personality of bearing up under it and grinning, regardless, trudging on towards success at whatever pace she can manage. And she hasn't even snapped at you for trolling her, apparently small in your eyes, efforts.
Cambiata, congrats on getting some exercise and finding a fun way to make it more motivational.
There's no dogpiling going on here, nor were any insults thrown. This discussion merely arose from someone massively overreacting to the unfortunately reality that three days of exercise does not constitute a particularly ringing endorsement of Fitocracy. It's generally hard to have a discussion with someone who prefers to wildly imagine what it is you actually said.
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Wait a sec, is Lewie P secretly Batman?
And even now, nearly a year later, I'm still struggling to do it. So yeah, it's hard.
Well for this thread, I was basically just all, "yeah, this website WILL get you started", and was just surprised at the, "No it won't, shut up" response.
As for how I handle the 'getting healthy' question in my personal life: I've gone the route of saying nothing, and I've gone the route of telling everyone about it.
I think I'm slightly more on the side of telling people, especially people in your family who like to show their love with food. Though come to think of it, with certain sabotaging personalities, it's better not to say "I'm trying to lose weight", because then they will immediately start bringing things to tempt you to eat them. It's a tricky thing. Depending on who I'm dealing with, I might just end up saying, "I'm sorry, I can't have that donut because I'm having a blood sugar problems right now. Thanks, though" and that will be the end of it, they won't try to push it on me anymore because suddenly it's become medical.
I don't buy into the 'don't tell anyone' strictly for pride reasons, though. Like that I'll be embarassed if I fail. If I'm embarassed to tell people because I'm afraid of failing, then I'm in the wrong head space for losing weight. There are some people who can support me in this goal, people at work, friends and family, and if I don't let them in that this is the way things are for me now, then they can't help me. Work support is particularly good for me right now, because there are several in my office who are working on healthier lifestyles, and we can share advice about the topic.
Hah, sadly if this was your response you're probably a logical thinker. Losing weight is hard, keeping it off is harder still. Got to find a physical activity you enjoy, so you don't get bored. And plan for when you get bored with that, so you can move to something else.
Statistically true, yes. True even in my own experience.
A nice thing say to someone? Not even a little bit. Just because you know the statistical realities doesn't give you the right to be a colossal silly goose to someone. No reason to poke a hole in someone else's boat, you know? Actually, knowing that the statement in that case was likely a completely factual deduction is one of the reasons I included it as an example of what not to say to someone; just because you're being truthful doesn't mean you're not being insulting and counter-productive.
Like WoW. Just imagine if, instead of doing dailies, you could earn rep and gold by running laps or something. If you could get top-tier epics by running a marathon. I think about the amount of time people put into earning crud in that game, how much they WANT IT, and it seems like it could work.
You mean Gabe?
I actually looked back over my posts to see where I bragged/acted proud about exercising. I couldn't find it. My first post in this thread was about how cool that website is, how it uses operant conditioning to "motivate" people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do, and the proof that it could 'motivate' someone was that it motivated me to start up again after a long break. Following that post was a rather nasty personal comment directed towards me, out of no where and (from my perspective) in no way related to my initial post, which I at first tried to lightly deflect, assuming the person didn't realize how much of an implied insult was in their post. Most of my posts after that were trying to make it clear to that person that what they said was not cool.
(Also I am not a guy)
Now I climb and cycle. Cycling is how I get to work, I enjoy it and it doesn't seem like a chore. Climbing (largely bouldering) I find super relaxing, its challenging and sociable. Most of all, I love it and don't even think of it as exercise.
This isn't to say I think gyms are shit and people idiots for going to them. They're just not my cup of tea.
Is there a fitocracy thread?
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
There's this game on my phone. Maybe I should say "game." I downloaded it about 9 months ago, I think, when I was bored. There's different 'missions' you can do, by going to the mission and clicking on the button that says 'do it'; and there's a screen to 'attack' other people, by clicking on their name to 'attack'. But it's not like you see any graphics for those actions - you click on a button and get xp & loot, and that's what happens for every single button you press, unless you're out of 'energy' or unless the person you attacks 'defeats' you. When I signed up for Fitocracy, I thought about that game - because I've been playing it for 9months, and WHY have I been playing it for so long? (aside from simple insanity) The answer is that I want to do all the missions. Once I've completed the missions, then I'll stop playing. And there are a lot of missions. I've almost completed them, although I thought that once before and they added another layer that got me started all over again. There is nothing "engaging" about that game, and there never was. Why am I still playing it?
The short answer is that I'm a completionist. As long as there are missions/cheevos to complete, I'll want to continue completing them. No matter how boring they are. This is how Facebook games got me hooked for a while, and I had to force myself to delete them - force myself, even though I wasn't enjoying the games and wanted to stop.
Now don't get me wrong, I do plan to start taking Tap lessons again, and Tap was something I got great enjoyment out of. Heck, any dance-type aerobics class would be enjoyable enough that I would want to keep doing it: The problem is that I can't really do anything that high-impact yet, mostly because of how much extra weight I have on me. I'll damage myself doing those things, until I've slimmed down a bit. But right now the only exercises I can do safely are also going to tend towards the boring. Using my obsession with completionism to get me to exercise is pretty much a perfect fit. Maybe after a year, I'll run out of missions and cheevos, and then I won't play anymore - hopefully by then, I'll either have come to my own appreciation for exercise, or I'll be skinny enough to start taking tap without ruining my feet.
Your first post was refuting Tube's point about Fitocracy not being able to motivate people into a lifestyle change. You claimed it had. He pointed out it hadn't yet.
I guess maybe we have different definitions of what "motivation" means?
I didn't have plans to do a thing. Because of X, I made plans and did that thing. Did X not give me motivation in that case?
This was a bold attempt to get across a very simple point to someone absolutely incapable of understanding it but I think we can all stop trying now.
This is a good place to start looking for structure and motivation. I started looking for structure and motivation in WiiFit, and it put me on a good path.
They are right in saying that if you are eating right, staying active and living healthy two years from now, it won't be because of Fitocracy. It will be because of your guts. WiiFit and Fitocracy and motivational books aren't full of motivation. They're full of ideas and good starts. Only your guts will take you past the novelty phase.
That's all anyone is saying: motivation is guts, not novelty. But in the novelty, you may find guts you didn't know you had. Be prepared for the hump.
Even if your goal is tangential to what Fitocracy tracks (e.g. weight loss/gain) you usually have to keep improving at what you're doing to progress. You do the same intensity every day and you'll find that plateau pretty quickly. I think the points cover that up.
This is a very reasonable reply, and makes more sense than any of the other replies I've gotten in this thread. Kudos and thank you.
I would still argue that motivation is hardly ever just internal. I go to work because I am paid (external) and because I like it (internal). If I were not paid, I would not continue to go; if I hated it, I would find a different job. Insisting that if one doesn't take motivation exclusively from internal sources, then that means that they aren't motivated, is silly.
Do they not increase the number of points needed between each level? If they did it would solve the problem because although you get a steady supply of points your leveling would continually slow down if you didn't push yourself.
Yes, you need more points per level as you level up.
Though I guess the required XP to level going up would give you the impression of stalling out if you just never do more than 20 pushups in a set.
Jesus. There are worse things than wishing and expecting the best of yourself. Her posts haven't shown breathless, unrealistic optimism. They've shown someone struggling who has the laudable personality of bearing up under it and grinning, regardless, trudging on towards success at whatever pace she can manage. And she hasn't even snapped at you for trolling her, apparently small in your eyes, efforts.
Cambiata, congrats on getting some exercise and finding a fun way to make it more motivational.
Jesus.
Steam BoardGameGeek Twitter
There's no dogpiling going on here, nor were any insults thrown. This discussion merely arose from someone massively overreacting to the unfortunately reality that three days of exercise does not constitute a particularly ringing endorsement of Fitocracy. It's generally hard to have a discussion with someone who prefers to wildly imagine what it is you actually said.
I honestly don't want to argue much with an admin I generally like and respect. I've said my peace, and I'm happy with that. Opinions and whatnot.
Steam BoardGameGeek Twitter
The tone of this post seems more hostile than you probably intended.
Some other posts, maybe, but this specific post is quite neutral.