I am not saying it shouldn't be. But what makes "sex" somehow special where we treat it so different? Why is someones decision to drink too much held accountable when they make mistakes in life, but when it comes to sex we consider them a victim?
I understand your logic, and I would concede to some extent that sex often is considered "special" in some moral scenarios. I guess the only thing I would contribute is that rape is the sort of topic that often enough needs particular consideration, because I doubt if grand theft auto has anywhere near the same historical baggage associated with forgiving the perpetrator and assuming the debauchery of the victim. Rape is bound up in a long history of unfair gendered power relationships that other non-sexual crimes aren't.
So yes, rape is often treated in "special" terms, but exceptions aren't always unfair.
Self-defence does not stop murder being a crime, rather it is a mitigating factor that allows the crime.
Having sex isn't a crime.
The two are categorically different, and can't meaningfully be compared.
Well, not when you put it that way. I may not have been clear. I don't think that simply proving that sex occurred should immediately shift the burden of proof to the defendant. The survivor would have to assert that there was no consent as well, which would take the claim into the realm of rape.
This, I think, does make it comparable to murder.
Are we talking public perception, or the way one is treated in the criminal justice system?
I have an honest question, it may come off as trolling, but I promise, this is something I honestly want an opinion on.
To get extreme, if I go up to a half passed out drunk friend and ask to borrow their keys, and they manage to muster out a "Sure." I am not committing grand theft auto for borrowing their car. But if the same thing happened with sex, I would definitely be commiting date rape. Why is that?
I am not saying it shouldn't be. But what makes "sex" somehow special where we treat it so different? Why is someones decision to drink too much held accountable when they make mistakes in life, but when it comes to sex we consider them a victim?
Because choosing to drive drunk, is whilst impaired, the individuals decision. When you add other people into the equation, the opportunity for them to manipulate others is considered too problematic to leave them wholly accountable. This as a rule applies across the board, so a contract signed whilst very drunk for example would generally be considered void, whereas signing up for a service through an online system whilst drunk would not.
Edit: In your example, I think you could be held accountable if it was established that you didn't honestly believe they would have consented to having you take their car whilst sober.
Already I cannot take anyone who uses the term "rape culture" seriously because every argument I've seen it applied to has been fucking ridiculous.
This is a very extreme reaction, coming from somebody who laments extreme reactions.
You can't take me seriously? Or Evil Multifarious? Or Fuzzy? None of us have been wailing or rending our garments.
Just to be clear I'm not comparing any of you guys to the kind of crazy you see in ultra feminist blogs, or Professors who feel the need to start a public bruhaha and lament their failure as an educator because one of their students sung a crass song while drunk.
But as much as I generally agree with the large majority of your posts that I have read, I cannot accept the position, even from you, that singing a clearly hyperbolic song about women who have no arms being easier to rape, while drunk, makes you a rapist. Raping someone makes you a rapist.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
I think the biggest issue I have with what you've written is your apparent assumption that rape is uniquely he-said, she-said. In my experience, criminal law always has at least two competing "theories of the case", and very often the winning theory is the one with the more compelling testimony (i.e. not just any kind of evidence) behind it.
I believe it regularly is "he-said, she-said" and that is part of why so few rapes even reach the court. It is not as if it's hard to identify the accused in question, given that in most reports the accused is known to the victim. But for them to even get into court, there has to be something beyond that.
Many rapists are aware of the fact that if their victims' stories are believed, they could be convicted of rape. They may not agree with the narrative that the survivor might present, and therefore not think they they did anything wrong, while still recognizing that the chilling effects rape survivors feel benefit them.
Not saying this is false, but this psychological profile would benefit from a citation.
Ugh, whenever I hear the words "rape culture" it's inevitably followed by outrageous sensationalism. This case is no different. Was the little jingle crass and in bad taste? Hell yes it was, but all this situation warranted was someone rolling their eyes at this guy and informing him he was making an ass out of himself. Whenever the feminist blogosphere gets their teeth into something like this and refuses point blank to deal with anything other than extremes they harm the hell out of their own cause. Already I cannot take anyone who uses the term "rape culture" seriously because every argument I've seen it applied to has been fucking ridiculous.
My questions to you, then, is this: why is rape such an enormous problem? Where does it come from, and how does it remain so horrifyingly ubiquitous? If a culture that still has an undercurrent of misogyny and twisted sexual values is not contributing to the persistence of sexual assault, what is contributing?
I don't personally think this guy's comments are a spectacular example of rape culture so much as they are an example of insensitivity, poor taste and a weak grasp of rhyme and meter, though a cavalier attitude about cracking jokes concerning women being unable to refuse consent is probably not a great sign for someone having enlightened attitudes about women.
Saying "man, I just got raped in that SC2 1V1" does not make me a rapist, or supportive of rape any more than saying "man, I want to kill my little sister sometimes, she's so annoying!" makes me a murderer or supportive of murdering children.
It's the same fantastic leap of logic that brought us "letting grown adults play games with guns trains them to be murderers!".
If we still lived in a 1950's culture where it was tacitly accepted to give your wife a backhand if she got lippy with you then yes, I would say talking about rape would foster a rape friendly environment. But we don't, people know rape is wrong, that's exactly why they make jokes about it. You tell people they're not allowed to make jokes about something that's a pretty surefire way of getting them to make jokes about it.
I understand that rape jokes are an issue you want to express your opinions on, but you're quoting me and the question I directed to you without answering it. I wasn't asking about rape jokes, nor was I even condemning them in my post; in fact I even went in the opposite direction.
I'm perfectly willing to discuss the issue of rape jokes, but I'm more interested in hearing an answer to my initial question.
I have an honest question, it may come off as trolling, but I promise, this is something I honestly want an opinion on.
To get extreme, if I go up to a half passed out drunk friend and ask to borrow their keys, and they manage to muster out a "Sure." I am not committing grand theft auto for borrowing their car. But if the same thing happened with sex, I would definitely be commiting date rape. Why is that?
You can give the car back. You can't un-sex someone.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
I have an honest question, it may come off as trolling, but I promise, this is something I honestly want an opinion on.
To get extreme, if I go up to a half passed out drunk friend and ask to borrow their keys, and they manage to muster out a "Sure." I am not committing grand theft auto for borrowing their car. But if the same thing happened with sex, I would definitely be commiting date rape. Why is that?
I am not saying it shouldn't be. But what makes "sex" somehow special where we treat it so different? Why is someones decision to drink too much held accountable when they make mistakes in life, but when it comes to sex we consider them a victim?
Because choosing to drive drunk, is whilst impaired, the individuals decision. When you add other people into the equation, the opportunity for them to manipulate others is considered too problematic to leave them wholly accountable. This as a rule applies across the board, so a contract signed whilst very drunk for example would generally be considered void, whereas signing up for a service through an online system whilst drunk would not.
Edit: In your example, I think you could be held accountable if it was established that you didn't honestly believe they would have consented to having you take their car whilst sober.
Now imagine the rapist is drunk and the victim is sober.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
I cannot accept the position, even from you, that singing a clearly hyperbolic song about women who have no arms being easier to rape, while drunk, makes you a rapist.
Nobody has said it does. The 'rape culture' argument is that doing so makes you some form of "rape apologist", "rapist producer", "rape enabler" or something along those lines.
I still disagree with a lot of that, but I'm pretty sure rape culture is never "joking about rape makes you a rapist" or even "as bad as a rapist".
Edit: In your example, I think you could be held accountable if it was established that you didn't honestly believe they would have consented to having you take their car whilst sober.
Fair enough. But of the apparently 3/4 of women who self identify themselves as having been raped. How many of their perpetrator's honestly thought that the woman wouldn't sleep with them if sober?
And even then, thats not 100% fair. Back in college I once purposefully got drunk so I would make out with an unattractive girl that was hitting on me because I was lonely. It was a huge mistake. I feel absolutely shitty about it, its one of my biggest regrets. But its not her fault, at all.
Its hard because being drunk makes us do stuff we normally wouldn't. It makes us come out of our shell and get a little wild and crazy. Hell that's pretty much the entire point of drinking it. But where is the line where you say "well they are acting TOO out of their shell, I shouldn't get involved."
Already I cannot take anyone who uses the term "rape culture" seriously because every argument I've seen it applied to has been fucking ridiculous.
This is a very extreme reaction, coming from somebody who laments extreme reactions.
You can't take me seriously? Or Evil Multifarious? Or Fuzzy? None of us have been wailing or rending our garments.
Just to be clear I'm not comparing any of you guys to the kind of crazy you see in ultra feminist blogs, or Professors who feel the need to start a public bruhaha and lament their failure as an educator because one of their students sung a crass song while drunk.
I'm going to be nitpicky here. The professor wasn't fond of the song. However, the lamentation was not related to the song itself, but to a follow-up comment in the thread where one of his former students appeared to support the general sentiment.
But as much as I generally agree with the large majority of your posts that I have read, I cannot accept the position, even from you, that singing a clearly hyperbolic song about women who have no arms being easier to rape, while drunk, makes you a rapist. Raping someone makes you a rapist.
And here you've just gone completely off the rails. I don't think even "crazy ultra feminist" types say that anything other than raping makes someone a rapist. To suggest otherwise is the kind of "fucking ridiculous" argument you apparently cannot take.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
So for just under 60% we don't know whether the report is true or false, as it was never cleared. It is unverifiable. However, rape advocacy groups will tend to take these figures as examples of minimum number of rapes that occured in a year, despite the unverifiability of the statistic (there is the equally unverifiable 'unreported rapes' statistics provided by many rape advocacy groups).
This isn't an assertion that false reporting is or isn't there, or a judgment of how prevalent it might be; only that, in general, there is an assumption made by some parties that all of these reports are true.
That's a fair point. However, the problem with rape is that it is the one crime where the victim is often hounded as being at fault. It is ignorance to deny that there is a rape culture in the United States.
Look at the Fluke incidents. Even outside of Limbaugh, the whole "slut shaming" thing is directly tied to what is behind rape culture: the idea that women should be ashamed of their sexuality. Do I think the incident that the OP describes is the worst thing that's ever happened to women's rights? Of course not. Do I think the student should be expelled or even really official punished? No, not really. What should happen is the university, and American culture in general, should take a good hard look and find out why this "joke" is even acceptable. From what I gather, the facebook post was "wtf, some morons said this on the bus" kind of thing so maybe that's already happening.
But people who look at that kind of thing and think "it's just some harmless drunk idiots" should ask themselves what if the song was about "how I wish I was in the land of cotton, good times there are not forgotten, like back when all them darkies stayed out in the field where they belong."
Somehow I feel like there'd be a different reaction than "lol, race culture is exaggerated."
Maybe if she was a lone screwball ranting and raving and nobody paid attention or took her seriously, you would have a point, but she is a paid, Emmy-award winning commentator on a much-watched news channel, talking to an audience of dittoheads who happily defended her heinous statements.
Who's also a Republican, who themselves tend to be pretty heinous in most of their rhetoric and ideals.
Rape culture refers to the idea that there are a lot of idiots running around saying stupid shit about women, sex, and rape, and the stupid shit they are saying is having an actual, negative impact on the livelihoods of women.
I understand, but no crime is an isolated event. Again, you can replace rape with any other crime and say the same thing.
Though I disagree that merely saying something insensitive has a negative impact on the livelihoods of women.
Being a Republican, and expected to say horrible things, is not really an excuse. That's why the "Rush Limbaugh says awful things all the time! Who cares?" argument didn't work. These are people with wide influence, saying things that a lot of people agree with, and the more people agree with this sort of rhetoric, the worse life is for women.
You don't think the pervasive opinions that some women are "asking for it" or "probably lying" or "known to be a slut" or whatever else, have a negative impact on women's livelihoods? Really? And how do you think these opinions get spread around?
What does "pro-rape" mean? If you asked Liz Trotta "Do you think rape is great?", she would probably say "No", sure, but the insistence that rape is ordinary and expected for women in the military, and arguing that we should spend less and not more on support services for sexual assault survivors in the military certainly contributes to an environment wherein rape is more likely to happen again and again.
And yet there were a ton of people outraged at her stupidity, including a lot of people from the military.
That's my problem with "rape-culture" as a phrase. If one stupid loudmouth starts blabbing about how women deserve what they get we're a rape culture.
If thousands of people, both men and women, are completely offended by that stupidity and decry that misogyny ... We're still in a rape culture.
Basically as far as I'm understanding even the reasonable sounding definitions of "rape culture" - every culture on Earth can be pretty easily defined as a rape culture, which makes the term both loaded and more importantly not useful. It's shocking but not illuminating.
It also encourages a tendency to ascribe everything to some type of larger moral failing on the part of society, and discourages from looking at larger, not specifically sexual psychological trends like the just-world phenomenon and fundamental attribution error. Society tends to be awful about a lot of terrible things in very similar ways, it's not unique to rape.
I'm not saying there's not some very good arguments about misogyny and apathy towards reported rapes, especially on college campuses. I just feel that the language used by many advocates of this issue tend towards moral superiority over the general knuckle-dragging public rather than education.
(also if this guy thinks that anyone learned something about rape from Titus Andronicus then he's clearly a loon.)
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Edit: In your example, I think you could be held accountable if it was established that you didn't honestly believe they would have consented to having you take their car whilst sober.
Fair enough. But of the apparently 3/4 of women who self identify themselves as having been raped. How many of their perpetrator's honestly thought that the woman wouldn't sleep with them if sober?
And even then, thats not 100% fair. Back in college I once purposefully got drunk so I would make out with an unattractive girl that was hitting on me because I was lonely. It was a huge mistake. I feel absolutely shitty about it, its one of my biggest regrets. But its not her fault, at all.
Its hard because being drunk makes us do stuff we normally wouldn't. It makes us come out of our shell and get a little wild and crazy. Hell that's pretty much the entire point of drinking it. But where is the line where you say "well they are acting TOO out of their shell, I shouldn't get involved."
If the person is capable of communicating a coherent thought and maintaining their physical equilibrium with minimal support or assistance, you're probably okay. Once they get beyond that point, then you should back off.
What does "pro-rape" mean? If you asked Liz Trotta "Do you think rape is great?", she would probably say "No", sure, but the insistence that rape is ordinary and expected for women in the military, and arguing that we should spend less and not more on support services for sexual assault survivors in the military certainly contributes to an environment wherein rape is more likely to happen again and again.
And yet there were a ton of people outraged at her stupidity, including a lot of people from the military.
That's my problem with "rape-culture" as a phrase. If one stupid loudmouth starts blabbing about how women deserve what they get we're a rape culture.
If thousands of people, both men and women, are completely offended by that stupidity and decry that misogyny ... We're still in a rape culture.
Basically every culture on Earth can be pretty easily defined as a rape culture, which makes the term both loaded and more importantly not useful.
It also encourages a tendency to ascribe everything to some type of larger moral failing on the part of society, and discourages from looking at larger, not specifically sexual psychological trends like the just-world phenomenon and fundamental attribution error. Society tends to be awful about a lot of terrible things in very similar ways, it's not unique to rape.
I'm not saying there's not some very good arguments about misogyny and apathy towards reported rapes, especially on college campuses. I just feel that the language used by many advocates of this issue tend towards moral superiority rather than education.
(also if this guy thinks that anyone learned something about rape from Titus Andronicus then he's clearly a loon.)
What does "pro-rape" mean? If you asked Liz Trotta "Do you think rape is great?", she would probably say "No", sure, but the insistence that rape is ordinary and expected for women in the military, and arguing that we should spend less and not more on support services for sexual assault survivors in the military certainly contributes to an environment wherein rape is more likely to happen again and again.
And yet there were a ton of people outraged at her stupidity, including a lot of people from the military.
That's my problem with "rape-culture" as a phrase. If one stupid loudmouth starts blabbing about how women deserve what they get we're a rape culture.
If thousands of people, both men and women, are completely offended by that stupidity and decry that misogyny ... We're still in a rape culture.
Basically every culture on Earth can be pretty easily defined as a rape culture, which makes the term both loaded and more importantly not useful.
It also encourages a tendency to ascribe everything to some type of larger moral failing on the part of society, and discourages from looking at larger, not specifically sexual psychological trends like the just-world phenomenon and fundamental attribution error. Society tends to be awful about a lot of terrible things in very similar ways, it's not unique to rape.
I'm not saying there's not some very good arguments about misogyny and apathy towards reported rapes, especially on college campuses. I just feel that the language used by many advocates of this issue tend towards moral superiority rather than education.
(also if this guy thinks that anyone learned something about rape from Titus Andronicus then he's clearly a loon.)
Nope.
citation needed
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
But is that the standard? Because I feel like it isnt. It seems like lots of folks would consider something date-rape long before "unable to stand, unable to communicate properly"
Plus booze takes a while to hit someone. A person may be way more "drunk" by the time sex is over then when it started. They may have been more the able to communicate and stand and dance or whatever when you started, but after a the shots they took start settling in, they could be near unconcious by the time it was over.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Edit: In your example, I think you could be held accountable if it was established that you didn't honestly believe they would have consented to having you take their car whilst sober.
Fair enough. But of the apparently 3/4 of women who self identify themselves as having been raped. How many of their perpetrator's honestly thought that the woman wouldn't sleep with them if sober?
And even then, thats not 100% fair. Back in college I once purposefully got drunk so I would make out with an unattractive girl that was hitting on me because I was lonely. It was a huge mistake. I feel absolutely shitty about it, its one of my biggest regrets. But its not her fault, at all.
Its hard because being drunk makes us do stuff we normally wouldn't. It makes us come out of our shell and get a little wild and crazy. Hell that's pretty much the entire point of drinking it. But where is the line where you say "well they are acting TOO out of their shell, I shouldn't get involved."
This right here? The bolded? That's a symptom of rape culture. This attitude, however harmless it seems, contributes to making women feel at fault. It doesn't make it less of a rape if the perpetrator thought that the woman would sleep with him if she was sober. That's just, no, not okay. Your example isn't the same thing at all. You chose to get drunk to sleep with a girl, a girl getting drunk at a party and then having some guy take advantage of her as she's splayed out and about to pass out because "It's cool, she probably would have said yes anyway" isn't less of a rape.
There's a line, I think it's from Friends, where a male character says "How drunk are you?" and the female responds "drunk enough to know I want to do this, but not so drunk that you should feel guilty." If some variation of this conversation isn't happening, put your dick away, America.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
Ugh, whenever I hear the words "rape culture" it's inevitably followed by outrageous sensationalism. This case is no different. Was the little jingle crass and in bad taste? Hell yes it was, but all this situation warranted was someone rolling their eyes at this guy and informing him he was making an ass out of himself. Whenever the feminist blogosphere gets their teeth into something like this and refuses point blank to deal with anything other than extremes they harm the hell out of their own cause. Already I cannot take anyone who uses the term "rape culture" seriously because every argument I've seen it applied to has been fucking ridiculous.
My questions to you, then, is this: why is rape such an enormous problem? Where does it come from, and how does it remain so horrifyingly ubiquitous? If a culture that still has an undercurrent of misogyny and twisted sexual values is not contributing to the persistence of sexual assault, what is contributing?
Humanity?
man, I don't know. I don't disagree that a culture with misogyny and twisted sexual values contributes, and I certainly don't think we shouldn't actively try to get rid of misogyny and other bullshit, but it often seems like people believe that getting rid of those things would almost entirely get rid of the rape problem. I don't think we're that malleable. (unless we make some far bigger changes in society than just getting rid of misogyny.)
We should fight it, but it is going to remain a problem.
Ugh, whenever I hear the words "rape culture" it's inevitably followed by outrageous sensationalism. This case is no different. Was the little jingle crass and in bad taste? Hell yes it was, but all this situation warranted was someone rolling their eyes at this guy and informing him he was making an ass out of himself. Whenever the feminist blogosphere gets their teeth into something like this and refuses point blank to deal with anything other than extremes they harm the hell out of their own cause. Already I cannot take anyone who uses the term "rape culture" seriously because every argument I've seen it applied to has been fucking ridiculous.
My questions to you, then, is this: why is rape such an enormous problem? Where does it come from, and how does it remain so horrifyingly ubiquitous? If a culture that still has an undercurrent of misogyny and twisted sexual values is not contributing to the persistence of sexual assault, what is contributing?
I don't personally think this guy's comments are a spectacular example of rape culture so much as they are an example of insensitivity, poor taste and a weak grasp of rhyme and meter, though a cavalier attitude about cracking jokes concerning women being unable to refuse consent is probably not a great sign for someone having enlightened attitudes about women.
Saying "man, I just got raped in that SC2 1V1" does not make me a rapist, or supportive of rape any more than saying "man, I want to kill my little sister sometimes, she's so annoying!" makes me a murderer or supportive of murdering children.
It's the same fantastic leap of logic that brought us "letting grown adults play games with guns trains them to be murderers!".
If we still lived in a 1950's culture where it was tacitly accepted to give your wife a backhand if she got lippy with you then yes, I would say talking about rape would foster a rape friendly environment. But we don't, people know rape is wrong, that's exactly why they make jokes about it. You tell people they're not allowed to make jokes about something that's a pretty surefire way of getting them to make jokes about it.
I understand that rape jokes are an issue you want to express your opinions on, but you're quoting me and the question I directed to you without answering it. I wasn't asking about rape jokes, nor was I even condemning them in my post; in fact I even went in the opposite direction.
I'm perfectly willing to discuss the issue of rape jokes, but I'm more interested in hearing an answer to my initial question.
Very well, I was outlining my general problem with rape culture, which is the idea that talking about rape in any other context than condemning real life rapes makes you as bad as a rapist. This is generally what I see pushed by proponents of rape culture, along with the idea of the "rape enabler" and "rape apologist" all these terms are sensationalist bullshit imo, I'm just establishing that.
As to your questions I'll answer them with my honest views on the issue.
Why is rape such an enormous problem, why is it ubiquitous ect? I personally think it's just a result of humans forgetting that we're animals too. A few thousand years of civilization do not undo a few million years of evolution, and rape is a case of our biological urges and our social conditioning coming into conflict. Pretty recently in our history we decided that being bigger and stronger doesn't mean you get to disregard a potential sexual partners feelings to you having sex with them. Some people are better at dealing with that than others for a variety of reasons. Speaking for myself it's because I consider myself to be a moral person, empathy for the feelings of others is something that's a big part of my personality, so I wouldn't rape someone even if I was 100% sure I could get away with it. But each and everyone of us is a beautiful and unique snowflake, not everyone has that aspect of their personality to hold them in check when they get in a situation where they could take something that isn't willingly given.
The other problem is the horrible legal catch 22 that's been mentioned. Our usual policing techniques let us down here, we can only prove intercourse happened, we can't prove the victim didn't consent. Thus the burden of proof will always be on the victim. This isn't because we're discriminating against the victim, this is because a free society cannot afford to assume guilt. It sucks, and I deplore the low rape conviction rate but there it is. I don't think a police state would do much to prevent rape.
In short, rape exists because people with lose morals and low self control come into situations where rape is possible. I do not go from that and the aforementioned low conviction rate to believing we have a culture tolerant of raping women, or that humor or hyperbole loosely referencing rape is indicative of that either.
But is that the standard? Because I feel like it isnt. It seems like lots of folks would consider something date-rape long before "unable to stand, unable to communicate properly"
Plus booze takes a while to hit someone. A person may be way more "drunk" by the time sex is over then when it started. They may have been more the able to communicate and stand and dance or whatever when you started, but after a the shots they took start settling in, they could be near unconcious by the time it was over.
No, that pretty much is the standard. Contrary to popular belief, the issue isn't sex you feel bad about the next day. It's sex you didn't have the capacity to consent to. The markers I mentioned are those that courts will look to when evaluating someone's capacity to consent. They might also consider the amount of alcohol consumed, if that information is available.
As for when someone gets drunker as the sex progresses, well, consent is not a one-time thing. It must be ongoing. So if your partner goes from enthusiastically bouncing away to vaguely comatose, it's probably a good idea to stop, if you don't want to be a rapist.
Is this really so hard to figure out?
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
I'm not saying there's not some very good arguments about misogyny and apathy towards reported rapes, especially on college campuses. I just feel that the language used by many advocates of this issue tend towards moral superiority over the general knuckle-dragging public rather than education.
word. I think this forum is pretty good about it, but man it's frustrating that sometimes what is an important topic gets mired into a battle of who can be the most moral.
He might have been referring to it being a "useless term" rather than there being non-rape cultures.
In the same way that, for example, 'patriarchal society' doesn't stop being meaningful just because it describes practically every culture up until very recent history.
I cannot accept the position, even from you, that singing a clearly hyperbolic song about women who have no arms being easier to rape, while drunk, makes you a rapist.
Nobody has said it does. The 'rape culture' argument is that doing so makes you some form of "rape apologist", "rapist producer", "rape enabler" or something along those lines.
I still disagree with a lot of that, but I'm pretty sure rape culture is never "joking about rape makes you a rapist" or even "as bad as a rapist".
Casual, your description is way off-base. I've described so plainly what I think rape culture is in this thread and others that I am surprised to see my position so grossly misrepresented.
Bethryn, your description is much closer to what I mean. I want to add that 'rape culture' does not merely take into account the intent of the speaker, but the possible interpretations by the audience. Establishing a lack of ill intent on the part of the speaker may excuse the speaker from moral censure, but does not mean we can't analyze the comment itself.
man, I don't know. I don't disagree that a culture with misogyny and twisted sexual values contributes, and I certainly don't think we shouldn't actively try to get rid of misogyny and other bullshit, but it often seems like people believe that getting rid of those things would almost entirely get rid of the rape problem.
I don't believe that it would eliminate rape. Reduce, but not eliminate.
More comprehensively, I do believe that reducing sexism, reducing misogyny, and reducing rape apologetics would have positive effects: it reduce the amount of sexual predation; reduce the amount of shame that rape victims feel; improve the help available to rape victims; and increase the likelihood that bona fide rapists would be dealt with by law enforcement.
Furthermore, I believe that this actually ties closely in to a more progressive view of consent (specifically: consent is the presence of enthusiastic agreement, not the lack of resistance) that is beneficial to peoples' sexual and romantic relationships overall.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
This right here? The bolded? That's a symptom of rape culture. This attitude, however harmless it seems, contributes to making women feel at fault. It doesn't make it less of a rape if the perpetrator thought that the woman would sleep with him if she was sober. That's just, no, not okay.
You cant take my quote out of context. It was in direct response to someone stating that I would be responsible if I thought the person wouldnt make the same decision sober. It was part of a conversation exploring the issue and not just a statement representing sentiment.
Your example isn't the same thing at all. You chose to get drunk to sleep with a girl
Well first off, I didnt sleep with her. Secondly, the point was simply to discuss that even IF the person wouldnt sleep with you while sober doesnt automatically make it rape because they would do so while drunk.
a girl getting drunk at a party and then having some guy take advantage of her as she's splayed out and about to pass out because "It's cool, she probably would have said yes anyway" isn't less of a rape.
Yeah, I am not remotely saying that a girl about to pass out isnt rape. But I do not think thats where most people hold the standard. I think its well before "about to pass out." I also think most of the 3/4 women who self idenfity as being raped would have fallen well before that "about to pass out" line. I have no proof to back that up, but it is what I would suspect.
I have a hard time believing 75% of the women I see every day were put through the traumatic experience of either being forcefully raped, or passing out and being raped.
And thats the problem with why people seem to have a "i dont believe she was raped" attitude when people accuse. Because apparently 75% of women believe they were raped, and I highly doubt 75% were actually raped. The line of what is and is not rape is blurry and shifts from person to person.
Disrupter on
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
But is that the standard? Because I feel like it isnt. It seems like lots of folks would consider something date-rape long before "unable to stand, unable to communicate properly"
Plus booze takes a while to hit someone. A person may be way more "drunk" by the time sex is over then when it started. They may have been more the able to communicate and stand and dance or whatever when you started, but after a the shots they took start settling in, they could be near unconcious by the time it was over.
The amount of alcohol one would have to ingest to reach the point of being pass out drunk isn't going to take the entire length of sex to start kicking in. it's not like getting drunk is sober sober sober MAGIC drunk, it builds up over time. Also, consent to dance/part/make out/whatever does not mean consent to have sex. If you're with a girl and she's about to pass out after being progressively more drunk, probably a good idea to call it a night.
While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.
I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.
I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
This right here? The bolded? That's a symptom of rape culture. This attitude, however harmless it seems, contributes to making women feel at fault. It doesn't make it less of a rape if the perpetrator thought that the woman would sleep with him if she was sober. That's just, no, not okay.
You cant take my quote out of context. It was in direct response to someone stating that I would be responsible if I thought the person wouldnt make the same decision sober. It was part of a conversation exploring the issue and not just a statement representing sentiment.
Your example isn't the same thing at all. You chose to get drunk to sleep with a girl
Well first off, I didnt sleep with her. Secondly, the point was simply to discuss that even IF the person wouldnt sleep with you while sober doesnt automatically make it rape because they would do so while drunk.
a girl getting drunk at a party and then having some guy take advantage of her as she's splayed out and about to pass out because "It's cool, she probably would have said yes anyway" isn't less of a rape.
Yeah, I am not remotely saying that a girl about to pass out isnt rape. But I do not think thats where most people hold the standard. I think its well before "about to pass out." I also think most of the 3/4 women who self idenfity as being raped would have fallen well before that "about to pass out" line. I have no proof to back that up, but it is what I would suspect.
I have a hard time believing 75% of the women I see every day were put through the traumatic experience of either being forcefully raped, or passing out and being raped.
And thats the problem with why people seem to have a "i dont believe she was raped" attitude when people accuse. Because apparently 75% of women believe they were raped, and I highly doubt 75% were actually raped. The line of what is and is not rape is blurry and shifts from person to person.
Didn't mean to take anything out of context, I just zeroed in on that statement because I've often heard it used to justify things that shouldn't be justified. (though it's funny that you edited out large chunks of my response...)
I'd agree that the No Go point is well before passed out. The problem with statistics is that of course it's not seventy five percent of the women you see, but it's representational of the larger population. I was once in a room with twenty people and we were all left handed, you can make a statistic say anything you want it to say.
The problem comes when people take things like that and use it to justify their actions, and that's all I was trying to point out.
But is that the standard? Because I feel like it isnt. It seems like lots of folks would consider something date-rape long before "unable to stand, unable to communicate properly"
Plus booze takes a while to hit someone. A person may be way more "drunk" by the time sex is over then when it started. They may have been more the able to communicate and stand and dance or whatever when you started, but after a the shots they took start settling in, they could be near unconcious by the time it was over.
The amount of alcohol one would have to ingest to reach the point of being pass out drunk isn't going to take the entire length of sex to start kicking in. it's not like getting drunk is sober sober sober MAGIC drunk, it builds up over time. Also, consent to dance/part/make out/whatever does not mean consent to have sex. If you're with a girl and she's about to pass out after being progressively more drunk, probably a good idea to call it a night.
It does build up over time, but it also takes a while to really hit you. I guarentee you if I spent the night drinking to the point of blacking out, it is not an instant "oh after those drinks I blacked out." It would very much be a while after those drinks. And if I started having sex relatively soon after finishing those drinks, it could easily be within that time period. So initially I was totally ok to consent, but sometime during, I might not be. Is this rape? I wouldn't consider it so, but I wouldnt be surprised if others did.
IF the person wouldnt sleep with you while sober doesnt automatically make it rape because they would do so while drunk.
I'm not clear on what your position is here so I'm not calling you out personally.
However, I have a very simple calculus that anybody can use.
Feral's Easy One-Step Guide to Not Being a Douchebag: Do I have any reason to suspect that the person I'm with will regret this tomorrow? If yes, then don't do it.
This doesn't mean that you won't make mistakes. People can be unpredictable. This does mean that sleeping with a girl who is drunk under the suspicion that she might not consent if she were sober makes you a douchebag. If you want to get into a semantic argument that this is or is not rape, I'm going to bow out of that, because I hate those conversations.
I hope we can agree that if you do that knowingly, it makes you a douchebag.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I cannot accept the position, even from you, that singing a clearly hyperbolic song about women who have no arms being easier to rape, while drunk, makes you a rapist.
Nobody has said it does. The 'rape culture' argument is that doing so makes you some form of "rape apologist", "rapist producer", "rape enabler" or something along those lines.
I still disagree with a lot of that, but I'm pretty sure rape culture is never "joking about rape makes you a rapist" or even "as bad as a rapist".
This is exactly how I've always seen it put, because frankly enabling someone to rape or allowing rape is as bad as being a rapist. Who knows, maybe it's just because I've only ever seen the term used by ultra feminists, if more moderate people have a different definition then I'll adjust my stance for this debate but I'm still highly skeptical of the "being flippant about rape = making a real rape happen" line of thought.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.
I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.
I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.
See, and a definition like that I'm waaay more favorable towards. For one thing it's actually useful as a way of describing and educating.
Unfortunately I don't get the sense that that's how most people who use the phrase intend it.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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Sir Landsharkresting shark faceRegistered Userregular
I've seen it referenced a few times now, so I just want to point out that the relevant stat is 1 in 4 women being sexually assaulted:
Please consider the environment before printing this post.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Kana/Feral: But "rape culture" is meant to convey that the culture has a lot of those elements. It's the suggestion that just as the predominant culture is, say, heteronormative, it is also "rapenormative". Culture is by nature not homogenous; but "rape culture" is specifically discussing the overt and subvert pro-rape biases that can be found in the mainstream.
While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.
I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.
I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.
See, and a definition like that I'm waaay more favorable towards. For one thing it's actually useful as a way of describing and educating.
Unfortunately I don't get the sense that that's how most people who use the phrase intend it.
Honestly, as far as mainstream American/European first-world culture goes, I think the total sum of forces discouraging rape are greater than the total sum of forces encouraging it. That's a really grandiose claim, and I feel weird making it, but there it is.
I think that the very fact that we're having this conversation on the premise that rape is bad demonstrates that. We're talking about how to reduce the frequency of something we agree is an atrocity.
There are places where this is not the case! I think it's fair to say that in some prison cultures, male-on-male rape is accepted as a way of victimizing people who have transgressed some boundary.
I personally feel that we live in an anti-rape culture, we just have the power to make it more clearly and consistently anti-rape.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Posts
I understand your logic, and I would concede to some extent that sex often is considered "special" in some moral scenarios. I guess the only thing I would contribute is that rape is the sort of topic that often enough needs particular consideration, because I doubt if grand theft auto has anywhere near the same historical baggage associated with forgiving the perpetrator and assuming the debauchery of the victim. Rape is bound up in a long history of unfair gendered power relationships that other non-sexual crimes aren't.
So yes, rape is often treated in "special" terms, but exceptions aren't always unfair.
Well, not when you put it that way. I may not have been clear. I don't think that simply proving that sex occurred should immediately shift the burden of proof to the defendant. The survivor would have to assert that there was no consent as well, which would take the claim into the realm of rape.
This, I think, does make it comparable to murder.
Public perception.
Because choosing to drive drunk, is whilst impaired, the individuals decision. When you add other people into the equation, the opportunity for them to manipulate others is considered too problematic to leave them wholly accountable. This as a rule applies across the board, so a contract signed whilst very drunk for example would generally be considered void, whereas signing up for a service through an online system whilst drunk would not.
Edit: In your example, I think you could be held accountable if it was established that you didn't honestly believe they would have consented to having you take their car whilst sober.
Just to be clear I'm not comparing any of you guys to the kind of crazy you see in ultra feminist blogs, or Professors who feel the need to start a public bruhaha and lament their failure as an educator because one of their students sung a crass song while drunk.
But as much as I generally agree with the large majority of your posts that I have read, I cannot accept the position, even from you, that singing a clearly hyperbolic song about women who have no arms being easier to rape, while drunk, makes you a rapist. Raping someone makes you a rapist.
Not saying this is false, but this psychological profile would benefit from a citation.
I understand that rape jokes are an issue you want to express your opinions on, but you're quoting me and the question I directed to you without answering it. I wasn't asking about rape jokes, nor was I even condemning them in my post; in fact I even went in the opposite direction.
I'm perfectly willing to discuss the issue of rape jokes, but I'm more interested in hearing an answer to my initial question.
Now imagine the rapist is drunk and the victim is sober.
I still disagree with a lot of that, but I'm pretty sure rape culture is never "joking about rape makes you a rapist" or even "as bad as a rapist".
The victim is the actee not the actor so it's still a crime, just like drunk driving?
Fair enough. But of the apparently 3/4 of women who self identify themselves as having been raped. How many of their perpetrator's honestly thought that the woman wouldn't sleep with them if sober?
And even then, thats not 100% fair. Back in college I once purposefully got drunk so I would make out with an unattractive girl that was hitting on me because I was lonely. It was a huge mistake. I feel absolutely shitty about it, its one of my biggest regrets. But its not her fault, at all.
Its hard because being drunk makes us do stuff we normally wouldn't. It makes us come out of our shell and get a little wild and crazy. Hell that's pretty much the entire point of drinking it. But where is the line where you say "well they are acting TOO out of their shell, I shouldn't get involved."
And here you've just gone completely off the rails. I don't think even "crazy ultra feminist" types say that anything other than raping makes someone a rapist. To suggest otherwise is the kind of "fucking ridiculous" argument you apparently cannot take.
That's a fair point. However, the problem with rape is that it is the one crime where the victim is often hounded as being at fault. It is ignorance to deny that there is a rape culture in the United States.
Look at the Fluke incidents. Even outside of Limbaugh, the whole "slut shaming" thing is directly tied to what is behind rape culture: the idea that women should be ashamed of their sexuality. Do I think the incident that the OP describes is the worst thing that's ever happened to women's rights? Of course not. Do I think the student should be expelled or even really official punished? No, not really. What should happen is the university, and American culture in general, should take a good hard look and find out why this "joke" is even acceptable. From what I gather, the facebook post was "wtf, some morons said this on the bus" kind of thing so maybe that's already happening.
But people who look at that kind of thing and think "it's just some harmless drunk idiots" should ask themselves what if the song was about "how I wish I was in the land of cotton, good times there are not forgotten, like back when all them darkies stayed out in the field where they belong."
Somehow I feel like there'd be a different reaction than "lol, race culture is exaggerated."
Being a Republican, and expected to say horrible things, is not really an excuse. That's why the "Rush Limbaugh says awful things all the time! Who cares?" argument didn't work. These are people with wide influence, saying things that a lot of people agree with, and the more people agree with this sort of rhetoric, the worse life is for women.
You don't think the pervasive opinions that some women are "asking for it" or "probably lying" or "known to be a slut" or whatever else, have a negative impact on women's livelihoods? Really? And how do you think these opinions get spread around?
And yet there were a ton of people outraged at her stupidity, including a lot of people from the military.
That's my problem with "rape-culture" as a phrase. If one stupid loudmouth starts blabbing about how women deserve what they get we're a rape culture.
If thousands of people, both men and women, are completely offended by that stupidity and decry that misogyny ... We're still in a rape culture.
Basically as far as I'm understanding even the reasonable sounding definitions of "rape culture" - every culture on Earth can be pretty easily defined as a rape culture, which makes the term both loaded and more importantly not useful. It's shocking but not illuminating.
It also encourages a tendency to ascribe everything to some type of larger moral failing on the part of society, and discourages from looking at larger, not specifically sexual psychological trends like the just-world phenomenon and fundamental attribution error. Society tends to be awful about a lot of terrible things in very similar ways, it's not unique to rape.
I'm not saying there's not some very good arguments about misogyny and apathy towards reported rapes, especially on college campuses. I just feel that the language used by many advocates of this issue tend towards moral superiority over the general knuckle-dragging public rather than education.
(also if this guy thinks that anyone learned something about rape from Titus Andronicus then he's clearly a loon.)
If the person is capable of communicating a coherent thought and maintaining their physical equilibrium with minimal support or assistance, you're probably okay. Once they get beyond that point, then you should back off.
Nope.
citation needed
Plus booze takes a while to hit someone. A person may be way more "drunk" by the time sex is over then when it started. They may have been more the able to communicate and stand and dance or whatever when you started, but after a the shots they took start settling in, they could be near unconcious by the time it was over.
This right here? The bolded? That's a symptom of rape culture. This attitude, however harmless it seems, contributes to making women feel at fault. It doesn't make it less of a rape if the perpetrator thought that the woman would sleep with him if she was sober. That's just, no, not okay. Your example isn't the same thing at all. You chose to get drunk to sleep with a girl, a girl getting drunk at a party and then having some guy take advantage of her as she's splayed out and about to pass out because "It's cool, she probably would have said yes anyway" isn't less of a rape.
There's a line, I think it's from Friends, where a male character says "How drunk are you?" and the female responds "drunk enough to know I want to do this, but not so drunk that you should feel guilty." If some variation of this conversation isn't happening, put your dick away, America.
Humanity?
man, I don't know. I don't disagree that a culture with misogyny and twisted sexual values contributes, and I certainly don't think we shouldn't actively try to get rid of misogyny and other bullshit, but it often seems like people believe that getting rid of those things would almost entirely get rid of the rape problem. I don't think we're that malleable. (unless we make some far bigger changes in society than just getting rid of misogyny.)
We should fight it, but it is going to remain a problem.
Very well, I was outlining my general problem with rape culture, which is the idea that talking about rape in any other context than condemning real life rapes makes you as bad as a rapist. This is generally what I see pushed by proponents of rape culture, along with the idea of the "rape enabler" and "rape apologist" all these terms are sensationalist bullshit imo, I'm just establishing that.
As to your questions I'll answer them with my honest views on the issue.
Why is rape such an enormous problem, why is it ubiquitous ect? I personally think it's just a result of humans forgetting that we're animals too. A few thousand years of civilization do not undo a few million years of evolution, and rape is a case of our biological urges and our social conditioning coming into conflict. Pretty recently in our history we decided that being bigger and stronger doesn't mean you get to disregard a potential sexual partners feelings to you having sex with them. Some people are better at dealing with that than others for a variety of reasons. Speaking for myself it's because I consider myself to be a moral person, empathy for the feelings of others is something that's a big part of my personality, so I wouldn't rape someone even if I was 100% sure I could get away with it. But each and everyone of us is a beautiful and unique snowflake, not everyone has that aspect of their personality to hold them in check when they get in a situation where they could take something that isn't willingly given.
The other problem is the horrible legal catch 22 that's been mentioned. Our usual policing techniques let us down here, we can only prove intercourse happened, we can't prove the victim didn't consent. Thus the burden of proof will always be on the victim. This isn't because we're discriminating against the victim, this is because a free society cannot afford to assume guilt. It sucks, and I deplore the low rape conviction rate but there it is. I don't think a police state would do much to prevent rape.
In short, rape exists because people with lose morals and low self control come into situations where rape is possible. I do not go from that and the aforementioned low conviction rate to believing we have a culture tolerant of raping women, or that humor or hyperbole loosely referencing rape is indicative of that either.
No, that pretty much is the standard. Contrary to popular belief, the issue isn't sex you feel bad about the next day. It's sex you didn't have the capacity to consent to. The markers I mentioned are those that courts will look to when evaluating someone's capacity to consent. They might also consider the amount of alcohol consumed, if that information is available.
As for when someone gets drunker as the sex progresses, well, consent is not a one-time thing. It must be ongoing. So if your partner goes from enthusiastically bouncing away to vaguely comatose, it's probably a good idea to stop, if you don't want to be a rapist.
Is this really so hard to figure out?
word. I think this forum is pretty good about it, but man it's frustrating that sometimes what is an important topic gets mired into a battle of who can be the most moral.
Which culture isn't a rape culture?
In the same way that, for example, 'patriarchal society' doesn't stop being meaningful just because it describes practically every culture up until very recent history.
Casual, your description is way off-base. I've described so plainly what I think rape culture is in this thread and others that I am surprised to see my position so grossly misrepresented.
Bethryn, your description is much closer to what I mean. I want to add that 'rape culture' does not merely take into account the intent of the speaker, but the possible interpretations by the audience. Establishing a lack of ill intent on the part of the speaker may excuse the speaker from moral censure, but does not mean we can't analyze the comment itself.
I don't believe that it would eliminate rape. Reduce, but not eliminate.
More comprehensively, I do believe that reducing sexism, reducing misogyny, and reducing rape apologetics would have positive effects: it reduce the amount of sexual predation; reduce the amount of shame that rape victims feel; improve the help available to rape victims; and increase the likelihood that bona fide rapists would be dealt with by law enforcement.
Furthermore, I believe that this actually ties closely in to a more progressive view of consent (specifically: consent is the presence of enthusiastic agreement, not the lack of resistance) that is beneficial to peoples' sexual and romantic relationships overall.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
You cant take my quote out of context. It was in direct response to someone stating that I would be responsible if I thought the person wouldnt make the same decision sober. It was part of a conversation exploring the issue and not just a statement representing sentiment.
Well first off, I didnt sleep with her. Secondly, the point was simply to discuss that even IF the person wouldnt sleep with you while sober doesnt automatically make it rape because they would do so while drunk.
Yeah, I am not remotely saying that a girl about to pass out isnt rape. But I do not think thats where most people hold the standard. I think its well before "about to pass out." I also think most of the 3/4 women who self idenfity as being raped would have fallen well before that "about to pass out" line. I have no proof to back that up, but it is what I would suspect.
I have a hard time believing 75% of the women I see every day were put through the traumatic experience of either being forcefully raped, or passing out and being raped.
And thats the problem with why people seem to have a "i dont believe she was raped" attitude when people accuse. Because apparently 75% of women believe they were raped, and I highly doubt 75% were actually raped. The line of what is and is not rape is blurry and shifts from person to person.
The amount of alcohol one would have to ingest to reach the point of being pass out drunk isn't going to take the entire length of sex to start kicking in. it's not like getting drunk is sober sober sober MAGIC drunk, it builds up over time. Also, consent to dance/part/make out/whatever does not mean consent to have sex. If you're with a girl and she's about to pass out after being progressively more drunk, probably a good idea to call it a night.
While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.
I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.
I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Didn't mean to take anything out of context, I just zeroed in on that statement because I've often heard it used to justify things that shouldn't be justified. (though it's funny that you edited out large chunks of my response...)
I'd agree that the No Go point is well before passed out. The problem with statistics is that of course it's not seventy five percent of the women you see, but it's representational of the larger population. I was once in a room with twenty people and we were all left handed, you can make a statistic say anything you want it to say.
The problem comes when people take things like that and use it to justify their actions, and that's all I was trying to point out.
It does build up over time, but it also takes a while to really hit you. I guarentee you if I spent the night drinking to the point of blacking out, it is not an instant "oh after those drinks I blacked out." It would very much be a while after those drinks. And if I started having sex relatively soon after finishing those drinks, it could easily be within that time period. So initially I was totally ok to consent, but sometime during, I might not be. Is this rape? I wouldn't consider it so, but I wouldnt be surprised if others did.
I'm not clear on what your position is here so I'm not calling you out personally.
However, I have a very simple calculus that anybody can use.
Feral's Easy One-Step Guide to Not Being a Douchebag: Do I have any reason to suspect that the person I'm with will regret this tomorrow? If yes, then don't do it.
This doesn't mean that you won't make mistakes. People can be unpredictable. This does mean that sleeping with a girl who is drunk under the suspicion that she might not consent if she were sober makes you a douchebag. If you want to get into a semantic argument that this is or is not rape, I'm going to bow out of that, because I hate those conversations.
I hope we can agree that if you do that knowingly, it makes you a douchebag.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This is exactly how I've always seen it put, because frankly enabling someone to rape or allowing rape is as bad as being a rapist. Who knows, maybe it's just because I've only ever seen the term used by ultra feminists, if more moderate people have a different definition then I'll adjust my stance for this debate but I'm still highly skeptical of the "being flippant about rape = making a real rape happen" line of thought.
Exactly.
See, and a definition like that I'm waaay more favorable towards. For one thing it's actually useful as a way of describing and educating.
Unfortunately I don't get the sense that that's how most people who use the phrase intend it.
http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php
Honestly, as far as mainstream American/European first-world culture goes, I think the total sum of forces discouraging rape are greater than the total sum of forces encouraging it. That's a really grandiose claim, and I feel weird making it, but there it is.
I think that the very fact that we're having this conversation on the premise that rape is bad demonstrates that. We're talking about how to reduce the frequency of something we agree is an atrocity.
There are places where this is not the case! I think it's fair to say that in some prison cultures, male-on-male rape is accepted as a way of victimizing people who have transgressed some boundary.
I personally feel that we live in an anti-rape culture, we just have the power to make it more clearly and consistently anti-rape.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I recognize that it is widely used in that way.
I disagree with that usage.
I'm not sure what more I can say beyond what I've already said.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.