Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
Seriously though networking is the tits. Information Security is kind of a unique beast in that it's small enough that everybody likes to know everybody, and likes to meet everybody, and are alcoholics so I have it easier than some. There's two different security-folk meet up groups in the Bay Area every month in bars, most of these people are employed. Between that and getting drunk at the after parties during RSA Con/B-Sides SF I have been in steady interviews since I got fired. If I had known what I know now about local groups back in 2008 I might not have been unemployed for two years. I even managed to meet a dude who is good friends with some guys who founded a Machine Learning startup, so maybe I won't end up going back to school? Basically the only reason I was interested in more school was so I could get paper to work in Machine Learning/Robotics, if I can backdoor my way in there fuck that. Go to bars, get drunk, introduce yourself to dudes, attend some cons and meetup groups; online job portals are bullshit.
Information Security also has 0% long term unemployment in all studies that have actually considered it as unique from IT, is overlooked by most job seekers, and is currently undergoing exponential growth, so it is a good place to be dudes.
Or maybe you guys just aren't very good at it and think that's it's some sort of unfair advantage and/or magic.
Vegging out in front of the TV after work is a helluva lot easier than going to an professional/alumni thing, but you aren't going to make any acquaintainces watching big bang theory reruns.
"making friends" <> "being born on third base"
Deebaser, you seem very confused.
You've decided people who point out networking is nepotism must obviously just be jealous they can't network. For ... no reason whatsoever.
The "your just jealous" argument is stupid in any context. That includes this one. It's avoiding the argument because you don't have a rebuttal.
When I used to talk to my clients while working as an employment counsellor, networking is inevitably one of the first subjects. Call it nepotism, call it just being smart, call it what you want ... the bottom line is that it's the way the world works. That just doesn't go for now, it's always worked that way. There's a reason the saying "sometimes it's not what you know but who you know" is a saying that everybody knows. It's because human beings are social animals, and it's the personal connections we make that often end up being the path to a better career. I often talk to my clients about the benefits of "getting out there" and meeting people. Particularly new immigrants in Toronto that tend to stick to their own communities. It's incredibly important when unemployed to stay connected and reach out to those who "know" you ... if you don't have networks to start building them. Some of the best job leads come that way ... whether it's "fair" or not is another subject, in the end life is not always fair. But if you are smart you can work your connections to your advantage instead of moaning about how unfair the world is (not speaking to anyone in particular but just in general).
Speaking for myself I landed several interviews directly in the last couple of months, directly because I reached out to my network of contacts, via personal connections and linkedin. Contacts that I built over many years. Networking works.
If you aren't on LinkedIn, get on LinkedIn. Reach out to people you've worked with in previous jobs, or fellow classmates, get people recommending your profile in jobs you've worked at in the past. A network is not something built in a day, it's something that you need to work on over a lifetime. And it's something that can literally make or break you in life.
You guys are making a fair point about the importance and power of networking, but down here in the world of entry level position it is definitely nepotism not networking.
I think a lot of it comes down to the discomfort people have with what conscious (rather than accidental) networking really is. There's no question that networking is extremely powerful and valuable, but it's a dubious thing just the same.
You guys are making a fair point about the importance and power of networking, but down here in the world of entry level position it is definitely nepotism not networking.
Nepotism got me a job that started at $15 an hour.
Three years later, hard work got me a job that started at $10 an hour.
Even at entry level, it's important. I can recall several times in my last few jobs where I've been asked if I knew anyone who needed a job. Managers are more willing to hire the friend of a decent employee because they just assume you will either kick their ass into shape or you already know they are decent people. Because it reflects bad on you otherwise.
I think a lot of it comes down to the discomfort people have with what conscious (rather than accidental) networking really is. There's no question that networking is extremely powerful and valuable, but it's a dubious thing just the same.
yeah exactly. Friends helping friends is natural. Pretending you like someone just because you think they might be useful to you later, is downright psychopathic.
You guys are making a fair point about the importance and power of networking, but down here in the world of entry level position it is definitely nepotism not networking.
I totally get you Doodmann. Many years ago I was in the same position as some of you ... in my early 20's, 0 contacts, 0 hope.
Here is an example of how I "linkedin". 6 years ago there was a community here on Penny Arcade that was into Xbox360 (we had a Megathread that got banned when PA moved to destroy all Megathreads in G&T). That Megathread eventually became 360Arcadians and is now The Arcadians. I took a lead role intially helping to start a podcast on the site. This involved connecting with publishers and developers for the podcast. Utilizing that experience I moved to MSXBOX-WORLD were I ended up handling all publisher PR with the site (all of this unpaid done in my free time). I met a shitload of people (all now on my LinkedIn contacts). After 5 years of doing that in my free time, I'm no longer with the site but the contacts remain. I used my contacts from MSXBOX-WORLD to land a job as a social media coordinator in 2010 at the Canadian arm of an international company, PartyLite Canada. I've also used those contacts to land interviews at SCEC (Playstation Canada), and Ubisoft Toronto. While those interviews didn't end in employment, it's a direct result of networking that I had the interviews to begin with.
I literally have 2 resumes. 1 is my "real" jobs as an employment counsellor, the other resume is made up of a combination of unpaid experience and paid in PR and marketing.
Networking works but it's something you grow over years. For those of you in your early 20's, NOW is the time to be growing that network. If your not on LinkedIn, get on LinkedIn. Recommend people you've worked with or even those you went to school with and ask that they do the same for you. I have a job lead now with a company where the manager is one of my classmates. Good thing I LinkedIn with him years ago. Employers check LinkedIn. I have my public profile on my resume and EVERY interview I've been to they have checked my profile (LinkedIn shows you who has looked at your profile daily).
Networking isn't something that may necessarily benefit you today, but it sure as shit will benefit you tomorrow. But ONLY if you have taken the time to develop your network over the years.
Bamelin on
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
I think a lot of it comes down to the discomfort people have with what conscious (rather than accidental) networking really is. There's no question that networking is extremely powerful and valuable, but it's a dubious thing just the same.
I don't see why.
It's not any different than going out and talking to people normally. Only instead of telling generic people I'm out of work, I hack web applications, I'm generally clever, and I'm really interested in security, renewable energy, and machine learning, I'm telling a targeted group of people those things and they know about job openings or have job openings for me to apply to.
It works both ways too. One of the guys I met at Silisec a couple days after I lost my job got laid off shortly thereafter. He's been helping me regularly, passing on postings more fit for me than him, doing introductions etc. and recently I met someone he hadn't with an opportunity that didn't fit my skillset but was great for him; I connected them. Ideally you help other people via your connections just as much as you help yourself with theirs.
I think a lot of it comes down to the discomfort people have with what conscious (rather than accidental) networking really is. There's no question that networking is extremely powerful and valuable, but it's a dubious thing just the same.
I don't see why.
It's not any different than going out and talking to people normally. Only instead of telling generic people I'm out of work, I hack web applications, I'm generally clever, and I'm really interested in security, renewable energy, and machine learning, I'm telling a targeted group of people those things and they know about job openings or have job openings for me to apply to.
It works both ways too. One of the guys I met at Silisec a couple days after I lost my job got laid off shortly thereafter. He's been helping me regularly, passing on postings more fit for me than him, doing introductions etc. and recently I met someone he hadn't with an opportunity that didn't fit my skillset but was great for him; I connected them. Ideally you help other people via your connections just as much as you help yourself with theirs.
Totally true. I've gotten some of my buddies jobs through my connections over the years. Your network is something you work for as much as it works for you.
@Bamelin I know what you're saying I'm developing my network fairly well, its just mostly full of those that are unemployed like me, engineers, or people that are in temp jobs. I get that it's always helpful its just frustrating that everyone I know that has a job got it through family connections.
Indeed, I'm not an X, and I'm definately not a millenial. The whole, 'you remember when you first got the internet as a kid, but there was nothing to do on it' thing is the key.
Totally remember those days. My first experience with the internet was when pages were text only ... I spent hours exploring, it was so fascinating to me. I also remember web rings.
I always felt my mini generation was one that basically rejected Gen X (but for the same "fuck this" reasons that gen X existed to begin with) and embraced what the Millennials would eventually become ... tech would one day be king, and those that knew tech would eventually benefit from that. It's the reason I took "typing" in high school (a non compulsorily course at the time), the reason that I hungrily embraced the web. Ironically the thing that really got me onto the internet was Tribes 1.0 (tribesplayers) in 1999. I still remember going through the forums and realizing that this was the future. So thank you PC gaming!
@Bamelin I know what you're saying I'm developing my network fairly well, its just mostly full of those that are unemployed like me, engineers, or people that are in temp jobs. I get that it's always helpful its just frustrating that everyone I know that has a job got it through family connections.
Again I totally hear you Doodman. I implore you though to keep up with the network. Eventually those unemployed contacts will be employed ... you never know what links you made 5 years ago will one day be a manager at a company you'd like to work at. It's one of the first things I grill into my clients ... networking (especially if you are in your early 20's or if you are new to the country) is something you start, work on and maintain over the years. The benefits come down the road.
I think people are frustrated by the idea that networking is the best way to get employed, rather than merit. That certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't build and use connections where you find them, but at the same time it's reasonable to point out that the system probably shouldn't work that way.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I think people are frustrated by the idea that networking is the best way to get employed, rather than merit. That certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't build and use connections where you find them, but at the same time it's reasonable to point out that the system probably shouldn't work that way.
It's also a system that grossly favors the extroverted and socially adept--two things that don't necessarily determine how well you'll do at most jobs.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
I think people are frustrated by the idea that networking is the best way to get employed, rather than merit. That certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't build and use connections where you find them, but at the same time it's reasonable to point out that the system probably shouldn't work that way.
It's also a system that grossly favors the extroverted and socially adept--two things that don't necessarily determine how well you'll do at most jobs.
Man that is hella not true. At my last job, I spent probably 99% of my time breaking web code, administering scanner functions, filling out workflows, etc. That other 1%? That was client calls, and I had to be able to explain extremely technical information to sometimes not so technical people and how it could impact their business. I have been working in one aspect of IT or another on and off since I was 20 (almost 25 now), a field not thought of as being filled with socially adept people with well developed communication skills (and it's not), and every job I've had has involved a significant amount of interpersonal interaction, usually with clients of one sort or another, or at the very least supervisors and coworkers. My ability to talk to people is something that has really defined me and given me an edge on the job. Unless you are applying for a job where you are going to be working by yourself all the time and never talking to anyone you are not going to be an ideal candidate if you are so introverted you can't go to a pub and tell people about how awesome you are and why they should want to work with you.
It's not any different than going out and talking to people normally. Only instead of telling generic people I'm out of work, I hack web applications, I'm generally clever, and I'm really interested in security, renewable energy, and machine learning, I'm telling a targeted group of people those things and they know about job openings or have job openings for me to apply to.
It works both ways too. One of the guys I met at Silisec a couple days after I lost my job got laid off shortly thereafter. He's been helping me regularly, passing on postings more fit for me than him, doing introductions etc. and recently I met someone he hadn't with an opportunity that didn't fit my skillset but was great for him; I connected them. Ideally you help other people via your connections just as much as you help yourself with theirs.
If you happen to genuinely, naturally get along with and care about the people in your network, that is fantastic. That isn't always how it goes. Not everyone gets along with a large portion of the people in their industry. In a lot of networks, your connection options are with people you do not like or care for, and you may even consider them to be loathsome people. Different people are comfortable with different levels of forced politeness.
Ever had one of the most important people in your network be someone who likes to make racist comments and jokes about putting Jews in ovens? It does not make you feel good.
Not to mention, it's silly to say that the only reason someone wouldn't be good at networking is because they can't deal with people effectively. For example, people who prefer small circles of close friends are disadvantaged relative to people who prefer large groups of casual friends.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
"On the one hand it sounds like you're taking advantage of the students... I would have been thrilled if somebody took advantage of me that way."
Fucker.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
So learn or suffer. I didn't start out good at it, I'm not a natural extrovert, but I realized it was an advantage I needed to have in the current market and so I worked hard at going to meets and getting better at talking to people. If you make a conscious decision not to learn how to network I am not going to feel sorry for you when your career suffers for it.
I'll admit to the people who show up to my industry meets are mostly pretty cool. I am sorry that you work in and industry where that is okay Incenjucar. Why is that considered acceptable behavior and that person is not ostracized?
"On the one hand it sounds like you're taking advantage of the students... I would have been thrilled if somebody took advantage of me that way."
Fucker.
I'm sharing the shit out of that video across all my social media channels and I suggest you all do the same.
As an Employment Counsellor, about 2 months before my lay off in December 2011, this had started to become the next "big" thing with corporations. They called it "Experiential Opportunties" ... essentially encouraging clients to work for free at companies in order to obtain marketable skills. The problem is that corporations have caught onto this trend and are now institutionalizing it. Boomers at work, ensuring their profits off your sweat.
In my parents (boomers) day part of the social contract was that you finished high school graduated and were guaranteed a good job,. My generation (Gen X) the social contract changed to graduating high school, going to college or university and then you would get a good job, The new social contract being marketed is, graduate from high school, get multiple degrees, work for free at a corporation to get marketable skills and then MAYBE you might get an entry level job to pay off your crushing student debt. This mentality is going to destroy what's made our nations great.
I've had the interesting experience of living with a pair of networking all-stars for six months (and they have the moola to show it). They really aren't something everyone
Yeah. This is kind of a major issue. Also the abuse of temporary agency contract work. Freaking 100 day spans of unemployment every year with no guarantee of return, and a good chance of being given a lower position if you do go back.
Being an extrovert is not a strong indicator of strong communication skills. It just means that you can remain comfortable in larger social situations for longer periods of time. Introverts also tend to think before they speak more often, which can be a freaking big deal.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
Being an extrovert is not a strong indicator of strong communication skills. It just means that you can remain comfortable in larger social situations for longer periods of time. Introverts also tend to think before they speak more often, which can be a freaking big deal.
Yeah and I am way more introverted than I am extroverted, but I learned how to play the game to open up more opportunities. If I am technically savvy in my field, clever enough to pick up new technologies on the fly, AND able to go to industry meets and talk intelligently over drinks, then I am more qualified to be in a role that requires communication than someone who can't do that last part. I'm not a networking all star (speaking of which I think your comment got cut off @Incenjucar ) and I probably never will be because I spend entirely too much time just listening to the flow of conversation and people watching; but I get out there, and I talk to people I don't know, and I'm more able to relate to people than most people in my field as a result. That's an advantage.
Sure. Nobody has suggested that networking isn't an advantage. We've just been noting that some people avoid it because not all instances of networking are emotionally healthy for all individuals, and sometimes it may not be strictly ethical.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
Right, but what I am saying is that aside from your racist terrible person example, the ability to network well + merit indicates you have qualifications above and beyond someone who can't network because it is emotionally unhealthy for them; well fleshed out people skills.
I am probably a little biased about this though because of how bad people in Technology generally are at relating to people; on the other hand I have watched people who were brilliant flub things up fantastically or just not do a lot with their careers because they aren't able to talk well. That is a problem.
In the job market, ethics are a handicap. Trust me, the guy you're having a nice chat with at the interview would sell you out as a child slaver if it got them a job.
Life is so happy sunshine! Let's positive thinking!
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
@chocobolicious How do I effectively choose which strip clubs to network in?
It's going to vary highly based on the local population, but yeah, it's an issue in the tech industry. I actually had a discussion with my agency rep about it, when he asked me for some feedback. But in so many cases, "having good social skills" equates to a form of dishonesty, or pushing down your ethics for monetary gain. Personally, I've given up a damned lot of money to not have to make that decision, and am now in a place where I can do a bit of networking without wanting to crawl out of my skin, but a lot of other people don't have the luxury of mobility, and their local networks are shitpits.
Networking is absolutely an advantage to an individual, but it can be bad for you, and its value to the economy is questionable as hell, given where it can lead to in some industries.
@chocobolicious How do I effectively choose which strip clubs to network in?
Find which ones have a good weekday rotation. Older people, the kind most likely to be worth knowing at least, tend to go on weekday nights because its more quiet, and they can claim overtime at work.
Its pretty easy to spot them on a driveby because the ones with dogs on duty tend to have only a few regulars on weekdays.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
Or maybe you guys just aren't very good at it and think that's it's some sort of unfair advantage and/or magic.
Vegging out in front of the TV after work is a helluva lot easier than going to an professional/alumni thing, but you aren't going to make any acquaintainces watching big bang theory reruns.
"making friends" <> "being born on third base"
Deebaser, you seem very confused.
You've decided people who point out networking is nepotism must obviously just be jealous they can't network. For ... no reason whatsoever.
The "your just jealous" argument is stupid in any context. That includes this one. It's avoiding the argument because you don't have a rebuttal.
I'm basing it on your arrogant ignorance. You don't know the difference between 'networking' and 'nepotism' and continue to insist that there must not be one. Afterall, the actual definitions of words are just like, opinions, man.
My company has an anti-nepotism policy, wherein HR will not allow a family member of a current employee to be hired. They shouldn't have to rename the policy because you and a few other people misuse a word you don't know. At the same time they have an employee referral plan wherein they give you cash money if you recommend a friend or professional acquaintance for a job.
You and Inj are basically insisting that having social skills is such bullshit and that it's no different than your dad just GIVING you a job. This suggests that you value technical skills and credentialing over social skills. I'm not suggestting you're 'jelly', just that you are favoring your strengths and dismissing the skills that you are lacking in.
Nepotism <> Networking
One is a skill, the other is a birthright. Full stop.
Maybe you're confusing "networking" for "cronyism", but those are also completely different things. The fact that you use the word incorrectly does not mean that it means something else. It just means you're using the word wrong.
For employers, reaching out to the networks of their employees makes so much sense its ridiculous. Good employees generally will not recommend people that will make them look bad, which automatically increases the average quality of applicants. Presumably, they will also not recommend someone that they flat out don't get along with, which reduces the potential for workplace conflicts. They also have contacts with people that may not be currently looking for a job but would make for a really good fit in the company, allowing employers to "poach" talent from other companies as it were.
From the point of view of looking for a job, you have to consider that most companies don't need the very best _______, they need someone that can do the job adequately. For entry level jobs, that is pretty much anyone who has a degree/certification in the field. With so many potential applicants that have essentially the same credentials, how do employers even begin to distinguish between them? They do so either based on how well you sell yourself in the interviews or on recommendations. Recommendations from people the employer knows are almost always going to carry substantial weight.
Not to mention, it's silly to say that the only reason someone wouldn't be good at networking is because they can't deal with people effectively. For example, people who prefer small circles of close friends are disadvantaged relative to people who prefer large groups of casual friends.
It isn't mutually exclusive. I have about 10-12 close friends (tier 1) and a few dozen casual friends (tier 2). These are the facebook/linkedin friends, the work friends, the college friends, the people that you know are actual human beings. People that you don't see every other weekend or hell, every other month, but if something comes up you know you can call them.
There's nothing inherently psychopathic or dishonest about maintaining casual professional relationships.
For example:
My headhunter called me a few months back with a job I absolutely was not interested. However, I thought it might be a good fit for this dude I used to work with. So I gave the recruiter his info, he was interested, and got the job. Networking.
When I was freelancing, I often got work referrals from the friends of people I've done work for. Networking.
When my old boss had a kid and we threw him an in office baby shower (so damn weird), I hired a tier 2 friend of mine to bake a Philadelphia Eagles themed cake with another teddy bear fondant cake on top. The extent of this friendship was meeting her at one or two parties wherein we got to talking and she showed me some pictures of her AceOfCakeBoss type creations. Networking.
Networking isn't a replacement for merit, it's a supplement. I have close friends I would never, ever, ever vouch for professionally. At the same time, there are dudes I am friendly with that know what they're doing. If something comes up I keep them in mind and vice versa.
Networking isn't a replacement for merit, it's a supplement. I have close friends I would never, ever, ever vouch for professionally. At the same time, there are dudes I am friendly with that know what they're doing. If something comes up I keep them in mind and vice versa.
That'd be fine if it were true, but networking sometimes is a replacement for merit. I won't say 'often' or anything because I don't have any statistics to back it up, but it's certainly not even rare. I've worked with plenty of folks over the course of my career who were in the jobs they were in because they knew somebody, not because they were particularly well-qualified (or, in some instances, qualified at all). This is particularly true when you have people networking with executives who are not, themselves, executives. At my previous job I worked with 3 different people who were completely incapable of performing their job duties but were hired anyway because one of the senior executives was a big fan of finding new-hires through schmoozing. None of them lasted very long in their positions, but those are months of lost work while the networked-in individual's inadequacies are discovered and a new, actually qualified person is found to hire in their place.
I got my current job through networking, but my employer doesn't hire based just on say-so like my old employer did. I also had to be the best applicant in the pool, in terms of technical merit. There's nothing wrong with employee recommendations or reaching out to people you know to let them know about opportunities. Networking is bullshit when people get jobs they were not the best qualified applicant for just because they had drinks with so-and-so. And it's not bullshit because I'm jealous that they got the job and I didn't; it's bullshit because their future co-workers could be working with someone better qualified and, instead, are working with that guy because why bother with the expensive and time-consuming process of finding legitimately worthwhile candidates when so-and-so's acquaintance has most of the right buzz-words on his application?
I mean, seriously. I worked with a lady who had never done any computer programming since COBOL classes she took in highschool 20-some years ago. She was a manager of a team of C# programmers and talked my old boss into thinking she was hot shit, so she got the job. She was hired as a software engineer and could not do her job. She just interviewed well, knew all the right buzzwords from having managed actual programmers, and could network like the dickens. So we lost 5 months spending 2 months discovering that she could not do the job, could not quickly ramp up to do the job, firing her, and then 3 months finding someone qualified. Yay, networking!
I'm confused what is being argued here. Networking is beneficial but can be abused when employers are idiots and don't properly check for credentials?
It really isn't super important to get the "best" candidate from the pool (as if such a thing is even possible to verify pre-hire). The only thing that is important is getting someone who is competent enough to do the job, and that could be every single person applying or none of them. Obviously, you would like to get the "best" candidate, but your company isn't going to sink or swim on getting the 2nd, 3rd, or Nth best person for the job (provided of course that the Nth is still competent to do said job).
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Information Security also has 0% long term unemployment in all studies that have actually considered it as unique from IT, is overlooked by most job seekers, and is currently undergoing exponential growth, so it is a good place to be dudes.
When I used to talk to my clients while working as an employment counsellor, networking is inevitably one of the first subjects. Call it nepotism, call it just being smart, call it what you want ... the bottom line is that it's the way the world works. That just doesn't go for now, it's always worked that way. There's a reason the saying "sometimes it's not what you know but who you know" is a saying that everybody knows. It's because human beings are social animals, and it's the personal connections we make that often end up being the path to a better career. I often talk to my clients about the benefits of "getting out there" and meeting people. Particularly new immigrants in Toronto that tend to stick to their own communities. It's incredibly important when unemployed to stay connected and reach out to those who "know" you ... if you don't have networks to start building them. Some of the best job leads come that way ... whether it's "fair" or not is another subject, in the end life is not always fair. But if you are smart you can work your connections to your advantage instead of moaning about how unfair the world is (not speaking to anyone in particular but just in general).
Speaking for myself I landed several interviews directly in the last couple of months, directly because I reached out to my network of contacts, via personal connections and linkedin. Contacts that I built over many years. Networking works.
If you aren't on LinkedIn, get on LinkedIn. Reach out to people you've worked with in previous jobs, or fellow classmates, get people recommending your profile in jobs you've worked at in the past. A network is not something built in a day, it's something that you need to work on over a lifetime. And it's something that can literally make or break you in life.
Nepotism got me a job that started at $15 an hour.
Three years later, hard work got me a job that started at $10 an hour.
So yeah, even at the bottom, it's cool.
yeah exactly. Friends helping friends is natural. Pretending you like someone just because you think they might be useful to you later, is downright psychopathic.
I totally get you Doodmann. Many years ago I was in the same position as some of you ... in my early 20's, 0 contacts, 0 hope.
Here is an example of how I "linkedin". 6 years ago there was a community here on Penny Arcade that was into Xbox360 (we had a Megathread that got banned when PA moved to destroy all Megathreads in G&T). That Megathread eventually became 360Arcadians and is now The Arcadians. I took a lead role intially helping to start a podcast on the site. This involved connecting with publishers and developers for the podcast. Utilizing that experience I moved to MSXBOX-WORLD were I ended up handling all publisher PR with the site (all of this unpaid done in my free time). I met a shitload of people (all now on my LinkedIn contacts). After 5 years of doing that in my free time, I'm no longer with the site but the contacts remain. I used my contacts from MSXBOX-WORLD to land a job as a social media coordinator in 2010 at the Canadian arm of an international company, PartyLite Canada. I've also used those contacts to land interviews at SCEC (Playstation Canada), and Ubisoft Toronto. While those interviews didn't end in employment, it's a direct result of networking that I had the interviews to begin with.
I literally have 2 resumes. 1 is my "real" jobs as an employment counsellor, the other resume is made up of a combination of unpaid experience and paid in PR and marketing.
Networking works but it's something you grow over years. For those of you in your early 20's, NOW is the time to be growing that network. If your not on LinkedIn, get on LinkedIn. Recommend people you've worked with or even those you went to school with and ask that they do the same for you. I have a job lead now with a company where the manager is one of my classmates. Good thing I LinkedIn with him years ago. Employers check LinkedIn. I have my public profile on my resume and EVERY interview I've been to they have checked my profile (LinkedIn shows you who has looked at your profile daily).
Networking isn't something that may necessarily benefit you today, but it sure as shit will benefit you tomorrow. But ONLY if you have taken the time to develop your network over the years.
I don't see why.
It's not any different than going out and talking to people normally. Only instead of telling generic people I'm out of work, I hack web applications, I'm generally clever, and I'm really interested in security, renewable energy, and machine learning, I'm telling a targeted group of people those things and they know about job openings or have job openings for me to apply to.
It works both ways too. One of the guys I met at Silisec a couple days after I lost my job got laid off shortly thereafter. He's been helping me regularly, passing on postings more fit for me than him, doing introductions etc. and recently I met someone he hadn't with an opportunity that didn't fit my skillset but was great for him; I connected them. Ideally you help other people via your connections just as much as you help yourself with theirs.
Totally true. I've gotten some of my buddies jobs through my connections over the years. Your network is something you work for as much as it works for you.
Totally remember those days. My first experience with the internet was when pages were text only ... I spent hours exploring, it was so fascinating to me. I also remember web rings.
I always felt my mini generation was one that basically rejected Gen X (but for the same "fuck this" reasons that gen X existed to begin with) and embraced what the Millennials would eventually become ... tech would one day be king, and those that knew tech would eventually benefit from that. It's the reason I took "typing" in high school (a non compulsorily course at the time), the reason that I hungrily embraced the web. Ironically the thing that really got me onto the internet was Tribes 1.0 (tribesplayers) in 1999. I still remember going through the forums and realizing that this was the future. So thank you PC gaming!
Again I totally hear you Doodman. I implore you though to keep up with the network. Eventually those unemployed contacts will be employed ... you never know what links you made 5 years ago will one day be a manager at a company you'd like to work at. It's one of the first things I grill into my clients ... networking (especially if you are in your early 20's or if you are new to the country) is something you start, work on and maintain over the years. The benefits come down the road.
It's also a system that grossly favors the extroverted and socially adept--two things that don't necessarily determine how well you'll do at most jobs.
Man that is hella not true. At my last job, I spent probably 99% of my time breaking web code, administering scanner functions, filling out workflows, etc. That other 1%? That was client calls, and I had to be able to explain extremely technical information to sometimes not so technical people and how it could impact their business. I have been working in one aspect of IT or another on and off since I was 20 (almost 25 now), a field not thought of as being filled with socially adept people with well developed communication skills (and it's not), and every job I've had has involved a significant amount of interpersonal interaction, usually with clients of one sort or another, or at the very least supervisors and coworkers. My ability to talk to people is something that has really defined me and given me an edge on the job. Unless you are applying for a job where you are going to be working by yourself all the time and never talking to anyone you are not going to be an ideal candidate if you are so introverted you can't go to a pub and tell people about how awesome you are and why they should want to work with you.
Omg the guy in that video ... what an asshole
"I would have been thrilled if someone would have TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF ME"
If you happen to genuinely, naturally get along with and care about the people in your network, that is fantastic. That isn't always how it goes. Not everyone gets along with a large portion of the people in their industry. In a lot of networks, your connection options are with people you do not like or care for, and you may even consider them to be loathsome people. Different people are comfortable with different levels of forced politeness.
Ever had one of the most important people in your network be someone who likes to make racist comments and jokes about putting Jews in ovens? It does not make you feel good.
"On the one hand it sounds like you're taking advantage of the students... I would have been thrilled if somebody took advantage of me that way."
Fucker.
I'll admit to the people who show up to my industry meets are mostly pretty cool. I am sorry that you work in and industry where that is okay Incenjucar. Why is that considered acceptable behavior and that person is not ostracized?
I'm sharing the shit out of that video across all my social media channels and I suggest you all do the same.
As an Employment Counsellor, about 2 months before my lay off in December 2011, this had started to become the next "big" thing with corporations. They called it "Experiential Opportunties" ... essentially encouraging clients to work for free at companies in order to obtain marketable skills. The problem is that corporations have caught onto this trend and are now institutionalizing it. Boomers at work, ensuring their profits off your sweat.
In my parents (boomers) day part of the social contract was that you finished high school graduated and were guaranteed a good job,. My generation (Gen X) the social contract changed to graduating high school, going to college or university and then you would get a good job, The new social contract being marketed is, graduate from high school, get multiple degrees, work for free at a corporation to get marketable skills and then MAYBE you might get an entry level job to pay off your crushing student debt. This mentality is going to destroy what's made our nations great.
Yeah. This is kind of a major issue. Also the abuse of temporary agency contract work. Freaking 100 day spans of unemployment every year with no guarantee of return, and a good chance of being given a lower position if you do go back.
Being an extrovert is not a strong indicator of strong communication skills. It just means that you can remain comfortable in larger social situations for longer periods of time. Introverts also tend to think before they speak more often, which can be a freaking big deal.
Yeah and I am way more introverted than I am extroverted, but I learned how to play the game to open up more opportunities. If I am technically savvy in my field, clever enough to pick up new technologies on the fly, AND able to go to industry meets and talk intelligently over drinks, then I am more qualified to be in a role that requires communication than someone who can't do that last part. I'm not a networking all star (speaking of which I think your comment got cut off @Incenjucar ) and I probably never will be because I spend entirely too much time just listening to the flow of conversation and people watching; but I get out there, and I talk to people I don't know, and I'm more able to relate to people than most people in my field as a result. That's an advantage.
I am probably a little biased about this though because of how bad people in Technology generally are at relating to people; on the other hand I have watched people who were brilliant flub things up fantastically or just not do a lot with their careers because they aren't able to talk well. That is a problem.
Life is so happy sunshine! Let's positive thinking!
Networking is absolutely an advantage to an individual, but it can be bad for you, and its value to the economy is questionable as hell, given where it can lead to in some industries.
Find which ones have a good weekday rotation. Older people, the kind most likely to be worth knowing at least, tend to go on weekday nights because its more quiet, and they can claim overtime at work.
Its pretty easy to spot them on a driveby because the ones with dogs on duty tend to have only a few regulars on weekdays.
I've already reposted at GAF, cag and RFD. It's such a rage inducing video
I'm basing it on your arrogant ignorance. You don't know the difference between 'networking' and 'nepotism' and continue to insist that there must not be one. Afterall, the actual definitions of words are just like, opinions, man.
My company has an anti-nepotism policy, wherein HR will not allow a family member of a current employee to be hired. They shouldn't have to rename the policy because you and a few other people misuse a word you don't know. At the same time they have an employee referral plan wherein they give you cash money if you recommend a friend or professional acquaintance for a job.
You and Inj are basically insisting that having social skills is such bullshit and that it's no different than your dad just GIVING you a job. This suggests that you value technical skills and credentialing over social skills. I'm not suggestting you're 'jelly', just that you are favoring your strengths and dismissing the skills that you are lacking in.
Nepotism <> Networking
One is a skill, the other is a birthright. Full stop.
Maybe you're confusing "networking" for "cronyism", but those are also completely different things. The fact that you use the word incorrectly does not mean that it means something else. It just means you're using the word wrong.
From the point of view of looking for a job, you have to consider that most companies don't need the very best _______, they need someone that can do the job adequately. For entry level jobs, that is pretty much anyone who has a degree/certification in the field. With so many potential applicants that have essentially the same credentials, how do employers even begin to distinguish between them? They do so either based on how well you sell yourself in the interviews or on recommendations. Recommendations from people the employer knows are almost always going to carry substantial weight.
It isn't mutually exclusive. I have about 10-12 close friends (tier 1) and a few dozen casual friends (tier 2). These are the facebook/linkedin friends, the work friends, the college friends, the people that you know are actual human beings. People that you don't see every other weekend or hell, every other month, but if something comes up you know you can call them.
There's nothing inherently psychopathic or dishonest about maintaining casual professional relationships.
For example:
My headhunter called me a few months back with a job I absolutely was not interested. However, I thought it might be a good fit for this dude I used to work with. So I gave the recruiter his info, he was interested, and got the job. Networking.
When I was freelancing, I often got work referrals from the friends of people I've done work for. Networking.
When my old boss had a kid and we threw him an in office baby shower (so damn weird), I hired a tier 2 friend of mine to bake a Philadelphia Eagles themed cake with another teddy bear fondant cake on top. The extent of this friendship was meeting her at one or two parties wherein we got to talking and she showed me some pictures of her AceOfCakeBoss type creations. Networking.
Networking isn't a replacement for merit, it's a supplement. I have close friends I would never, ever, ever vouch for professionally. At the same time, there are dudes I am friendly with that know what they're doing. If something comes up I keep them in mind and vice versa.
That'd be fine if it were true, but networking sometimes is a replacement for merit. I won't say 'often' or anything because I don't have any statistics to back it up, but it's certainly not even rare. I've worked with plenty of folks over the course of my career who were in the jobs they were in because they knew somebody, not because they were particularly well-qualified (or, in some instances, qualified at all). This is particularly true when you have people networking with executives who are not, themselves, executives. At my previous job I worked with 3 different people who were completely incapable of performing their job duties but were hired anyway because one of the senior executives was a big fan of finding new-hires through schmoozing. None of them lasted very long in their positions, but those are months of lost work while the networked-in individual's inadequacies are discovered and a new, actually qualified person is found to hire in their place.
I got my current job through networking, but my employer doesn't hire based just on say-so like my old employer did. I also had to be the best applicant in the pool, in terms of technical merit. There's nothing wrong with employee recommendations or reaching out to people you know to let them know about opportunities. Networking is bullshit when people get jobs they were not the best qualified applicant for just because they had drinks with so-and-so. And it's not bullshit because I'm jealous that they got the job and I didn't; it's bullshit because their future co-workers could be working with someone better qualified and, instead, are working with that guy because why bother with the expensive and time-consuming process of finding legitimately worthwhile candidates when so-and-so's acquaintance has most of the right buzz-words on his application?
I mean, seriously. I worked with a lady who had never done any computer programming since COBOL classes she took in highschool 20-some years ago. She was a manager of a team of C# programmers and talked my old boss into thinking she was hot shit, so she got the job. She was hired as a software engineer and could not do her job. She just interviewed well, knew all the right buzzwords from having managed actual programmers, and could network like the dickens. So we lost 5 months spending 2 months discovering that she could not do the job, could not quickly ramp up to do the job, firing her, and then 3 months finding someone qualified. Yay, networking!
It really isn't super important to get the "best" candidate from the pool (as if such a thing is even possible to verify pre-hire). The only thing that is important is getting someone who is competent enough to do the job, and that could be every single person applying or none of them. Obviously, you would like to get the "best" candidate, but your company isn't going to sink or swim on getting the 2nd, 3rd, or Nth best person for the job (provided of course that the Nth is still competent to do said job).