Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Ninjai doesn't react well to bulletsch (nsfw)

2»

Posts

  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Fantastic tutorial. I wish my teachers of the past had walked so finely through the steps as this! Do these same techniques apply to pencil drawing as well? I haven't worked very much with charcoal and the photo in my sig is probably one of the few things I've ever done with it.

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • GodfatherGodfather regular Registered User regular
    Nah, i've tried it before and it doesn't work too well with pencils. It's just how the medium was made.

    Also, if you're doing a value study, you should make sure the reference is in black and white silly! :)

    cs5jK.jpg

    0WBv0.png
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    Is the tortillion the wrong tool for what I'm trying to accomplish with pencil then?

    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ScosglenScosglen regular Registered User regular
    There is no gospel technique for how to deposit media on a page. If it gets good results for you then it's a valid approach.

    Tortillons are for pushing media around after it's been deposited on the page, or for "loading" it as described in Andrew's tutorial and depositing very controlled amounts. Because of the fundamental differences between charcoal and graphite, it's a bit easier to use it with charcoal, but there's nothing "wrong" with using on pencil. You'll just find that graphite is a bit more "stubborn".

    Personally, I am a filthy finger-smudger when I work with pencil. If I surmise that an area of the page needs some smooth and even toning, I will push some graphite in and then work additively and subtractively to sculpt more specific form from there. I will also variably add tone via hatching and simply laying down shapes of tone one stroke at a time, which is really just hatching in a tightly controlled way.


  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Thanks scos, I've been thinking about what you and grif both said during my latest drawing session.


    both of these are 30 minutes.
    wp000432.jpg
    wp000430.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    This was supposed to be an hour one, but the form I started with was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off so I started over... 40 ish minutes so far, I like where this one is going, so I'll say WIP

    edit: I made a few quick changes before bed. knee and right arm are getting fixed next
    wp000436t.jpg
    figure51303868763.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ScosglenScosglen regular Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Two things.

    One, I think you should spend more time per piece on some of these. Like a couple hours more. It's good to fire off some short and medium studies when cramming on a new and challenging subject just to get some mileage under your belt and help pick up structural cues, but at some point it's also necessary to pull back and take some quality time with it too. In this case, if you're struggling with rendering and light, then it's doubly important to slow down and make some more careful observations.

    As for more specific critique, you need to pay more attention to the overall value relationships rather than just local comparisons. The reason your vintage reference photo has that black background is to set off that rimlight coming in from the left and give us a nice slice of light on her arm and hips. The relationship between this slice of light and the rest of the body is lost in your study-- we're just left with a light on the left and an equal light on the right. They need to be differentiated, because they're different light sources and they have different strengths.

    ninjai.jpg

    Here's just two really quick and dirty examples. In the first example, I toned the entire image down to simulate if you were working on a medium-toned paper, or if you had prepared your surface with a rubbed-in gray value before you started. With a general medium tone, it's a simple as picking out a white media such as chalk and drawing in those highlights.

    When you aren't working on a toned surface, you can only bring the values down obviously. In the second piece I just crudely put in a light wash of gray to tone down the side receiving indirect light, and strictly speaking that could have been enough. I went and added in the dark of the background though because the sense of illumination is far more powerful when you set it off against a dark contrast rather than just letting it merge with the natural tone of the paper. It's the same basic reason that the original photographer put that background up, really.

    Scosglen on
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Yay my first paintover! I will take you up on the longer time thing. Really having fun on this one so ill work more on it tomorrow.

    Thanks a bunch!

    edit: actually I lied I'm not going to be up for long since I work so early tomorrow...

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • lyriumlyrium regular Registered User regular
    If you squint at the photo/blur your vision, it is easier to see those relationships that Scos is talking about because it simplifies what you're seeing into more basic blocks of values. And always remember when you are putting down a dark value, compare it to the other darks in the reference. Is it the darkest? Or is there a darker area? Checking these things will keep the picture lit properly as a whole.

  • GodfatherGodfather regular Registered User regular
    If Scos didn't cover it already, I would emphasize that you work from big to small when it comes to your values! What I mean by this is that you should establish one general mid-grade mass value for the figure (think of a silhouette), then start adding and subtracting from that tone in the appropriate areas.

    It really helped me out!

    0WBv0.png
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    I need a break from all this learning!

    wp000437.jpg

    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Still taking a break from all that knowlege and dicking around with some comicky stuff. I spent some time on the first one, not so much time on that other one. I liked the first one... until somebawdy decided to smudge all the pencil...


    The moth-pocalypse is back and badder than ever in Colorado. It's this bad:
    wp000444.jpg

    Really, they're just a grouchy bunch.
    wp000447.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Trying some practical stuff. I bought non-photo blue pencil, some hard lead, and a micron brush pen and am going to try to ink this tomorrow. WISH ME LUCK!

    wp000453m.jpg

    Thought I'd put this here too. Want to ink it once I get the rest of everyone included

    wp000451.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • NicNic regular Registered User regular
    Ninjai I like your style of drawing, so keep the fuck at it. My main criticism is that you need to tighten your designs up, but that comes with more practice, and is something I'm still working on myself. There's lots of room for improvement here, don't get me wrong, but you draw like it's something you like to do, and that goes a long way.

    Also you drew both my pictures in the sketch a forumer thread. That's two times the me!

  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Thanks a lot nic! I think the design bit just comes from drawing from life and using references more, which happens to be a weak point of mine. Yes I do like drawing, though every once in a while I get to the point where it feels like a chore and I take a break and draw goofy stupid shit.

    So I learned a few valuable things about inking (and other things) today.
    1. Micron brush pens are shit because the nib breaks very easily
    2. GET HARDER LEAD because the brittle lead fucks up your ink
    3. Don't try to erase your pencil for a while because the ink isn't dry
    4. WORK LARGER
    5. Work OVER what you're drawing not behind it.
    6. I have no idea how to ink...

    So here's what I'm going to do: Ask for help?
    Here's what I got.

    wp000455.jpg

    wp000457.jpg

    Also perspective is very hard.

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I'ma ink them tomorrow, but here are my favorite moments from THE AVENGERS (non-spoiler)

    Does Loki look like a bitch?
    Asgard aint no country I ever heard of, do they speak english in Asgard?
    That's it. I've had it with these mother-fuckin demi-gods on this mother-fuckin airship!
    wp000463.jpg
    wp000464.jpg
    wp000466.jpg

    Spoilered for excessively lame. IDK WHY but I was compelled to do this one. No spoilers.
    wp000467.jpg

    and this, I forgot to upload it earlier. Just practicing.

    wp000460.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    thats Brock Samson with the knife, right ?

  • NappuccinoNappuccino regular Registered User regular
    For a pretty decent inking tutorial: http://smokinghippo.com/TSOtutes/inking_tutorial.html

    Like to write? Want to get e-published? Give us a look-see at http://wednesdaynightwrites.com/
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    There's also the possibility you just can't really grow a bear like other guys.

    Not even BEAR vaginas can defeat me!
    cakemikz wrote: »
    And then I rub actual cake on myself.
    Loomdun wrote: »
    thats why you have chest helmets
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Nappuccino wrote: »
    For a pretty decent inking tutorial: http://smokinghippo.com/TSOtutes/inking_tutorial.html

    You'd be surprised how many times I've read through that... and nothing really sticks. I have a set of microns and I just can't seem to make them do what I want, that's why I'm trying brushes/brush pens.

    Also @fantomas, it started off as hank, then I drew hank like brock samson. lol


    edit: so I broke out the microns and I take it back. The stark and hulk ones turned out pretty well. I want to scan them so they'll have to wait til later.

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    Here is the fruits of my inking endeavors. I had fun with these, though I don't really know how good they are. Inking is hard, and I don't quite understand when to "black" things. (e.g. hulk drawing would be way more interesting with some blacks in it but IDK where or why)

    wp000473.jpg
    wp000478.jpg
    wp000477.jpg
    wp000474.jpg

    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • melting_dollmelting_doll regular Registered User regular
    I think you're definitely on your way to making progress with inks! If you're looking for someone that is great with "blacking" in that sense, check out Mike Mignola. There is a lot of love/hate for him, but I worship his skill with dramatic shadows. I'm sure you could find lots of dramatic light references in general on the interwebs as well.

    Personally, I haven't used non-brushlike inking materials in forever. They can be hard to learn how to control (something I'm definitely still working on) but the flow and line variation from them is top notch

  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    biomega2.png
    I love tsutomu nihei's really really harsh blacks. He'll load entire pages with black. It's awesome... but he really isn't a good learning example. Dude started as an engineer, lots of detail in everything. Hard to understand

    I get lost super easy :P

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Watching Empire Strikes Back. Here are some of the drawds from that. Working on quickly studying a subject and drawing from memory

    He he, yoda looks like George Lucas
    wp000479n.jpg
    wp000481.jpg
    wp000485.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    Practicing my inks.

    Got and read Invincible book 1 and Bamman Arkham Asylum. Now I have nothing to read :(

    wp000487.jpg
    wp000492.jpg
    wp000489a.jpg

    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    My movie fast sketches for today. I'm getting better at this :)

    Today's movie, Hunt for the Red October. Here are the highlights
    wp000497x.jpg

    a five minute sketch before bed, trying to apply a little of what was suggested earlier about values.

    wp000509b.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • Toji SuzuharaToji Suzuhara regular Southern CaliforniaRegistered User regular
    The thing I don't like about Hussie's inking tutorial is that it tries to tell you that you need to ink with pens like you're inking with a brush. I think at this stage of your inking career it would really benefit you to simplify the lines you're making a lot. I would worry less about trying to vary line width and more about trying to get a lot more comfortable with the medium.

    If you ultimately want to go into brush inking, work on your control with pens and then work up to brushes--maybe taking an intermediary step with a brush pen first and learning back up to proficiency.

    Most manga artists use nibs, though. It looks like Nihei uses a combination of nibs and brushes, but nibs are definitely going to get you closer to his look than microns ever will.

    That aside, I still say you should stick with the microns you have, working more simply, and thinking about the design of the black and white shapes more than the lineweights. A sense for lineweight comes semi-naturally as you get better at inking.

    AlphaFlag_200x40.jpg
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    My goal is definitely just familiarity right now. I never realized how difficult it was til I started this kick. He uses lots of brushes, IDK about nibs, the guy is so damn aloof lol :)

    Thanks for the suggestions, the line weight thing has been a source of confusion but I'll take your suggestion to simplify the lines for now. I <3 comments :D

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • NibCromNibCrom regular Registered User regular
    Can we get a NSFW tag on this, please?

  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Sorry Nib. Forgot :/

    Trying to find an excuse to draw yesterday...

    wp000518l.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Hey guys need a little help. I know this is a shitty picture (it's non-photo blue pencil and 4h lead) and the only reason the sketch isn't finished is because I couldn't find a reference photo for the next part, I'ma go work on that right now. In the meantime, this is part of a shitty comic (examples above) just practicing ink and stuff. I'm a little intimidated, and here's why.

    Luke is wearing all black, Darth Vader is in a black suit with shiny parts, and the emperor is wearing a black robe in a black chair in a black room.
    That's a lot of ink to fuck up on.
    I need some guidance, I feel a little out of my depth lol

    wp000521.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    wp000522.jpg

    So here's the final sketch, some of the extraneous detail will be cropped out when I stencil in the final borders. If at all possible, I am daunted by this to begin inking than before. There's a shit load of black in these. The guy in the right panel, most of the bottom left panel as well. I don't even know where to begin. :C I'm petrified of fucking this up even though I know it doesn't matter.

    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    moar contrast ! !

  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    ninjai wrote: »
    (it's non-photo blue pencil and 4h lead)
    FANTOMAS wrote: »
    moar contrast ! !

    Dude. It's getting inked... Do you have some, maybe, advice? On how to do that?


    Here's what I got so far working out some trial and error shit digitally before going to paper. I'm going to go get some food now since that took most of the morning. If you have any suggestions on how to do this in all black (for when I do this on paper) I'm all ears.

    I suppose I could just go buy some india ink.
    wip000522.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • NicNic regular Registered User regular
    I think what he means is more contrast on your pencil scans, just open it up in a photo editor and slide the contrast slider up a little so that we can see the lines better. It doesn't have to be a stark Black and white contrast, just make it so the grey lines stand out against the grey background more.

  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Nic wrote: »
    I think what he means is more contrast on your pencil scans, just open it up in a photo editor and slide the contrast slider up a little so that we can see the lines better. It doesn't have to be a stark Black and white contrast, just make it so the grey lines stand out against the grey background more.
    Yeah? No kidding. I hate to be sarcastic, but that's been covered a few times in this thread already.

    Also, fyi, this is the most visible that I could make the image look by adjusting the brightness and sliders, taken in good lighting.ITS NON PHOTO BLUE PENCIL, IT ISN'T EVEN SUPPOSED TO SHOW UP IN A PHOTO! But I needed some help... The only reason I uploaded it was for advice/tips/help on INKING not advice on how to color correct!

    This isn't any easier to look at than the other
    wp000522r.jpg

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Firstly, if you want advice, you have to make sure that we can SEE what you are drawing, secondly, the kind of drawing you are making, you could do them with a crayon, the non-photo blue mumblejumble is unnecesary, and as you can see NOW a detriment, as you are scanning these.

    About the inking, wich is also the part I love most about drawing, I will give you advise:

    Stop just tracing your pencil, put some heart into it, definitely get china ink, and definitely get a stylus, a very thin brush, a glass of water, and try throwing some mid-tones, try making the lines with a brush, you will see that they look a lot more dynamic and a lot less as if you were just tracing the pencil, that, for anyone that likes to ink, its an eyesore.
    Another advice, work on your drawing skills, in my opinion most of these are really not even worth inking, seriously the style is not cutting it, and the humour you use, is as unnapealing as your attitude, so overall, try to improve everything, even the way you communicate with people.

  • ninjaininjai regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    FANTOMAS wrote: »
    You're a bad artist, you're not funny, and also a dick.

    AWESOME critique man. No seriously. I'm going to get to work on that right away.
    Mustang wrote: »
    Hahaha, "Do it again, but right, y'know, more masterpiecey, make drawings that are brilliant, whew this art teachering is hard I think I might take a little nap."

    Like that^

    I'M HERE because I'm a bad artist. I posted the shitty photo because I don't know what else to do aside from just tracing my pencil. The point of the comic wasn't to make a joke, wasn't to make anyone laugh, it was to have something to fucking draw because without it I wouldn't have drawn anything that day, but I drew something, drew an environment in a comic for the first time, forced myself to use references, and I drew something for fun, just to keep me in it, so I don't burn out on shit that bores me, and focus instead on enjoying it! That's why I'm inking shitty drawings that "are not even worth inking" because I'm enjoying myself, all the while learning something, trying something to keep drawing.

    I could instead be self-deprecating, and announce to the world that my shit sucks, I could say in every post "Oh God, I this drawing sucks goat ass, thanks guys for dealing with my bull shit excuses for art", but nobody wants to help someone who doesn't even appreciate their own work and effort themselves. I got the "work on your attitude" critique from playing open mic, because I would always play terribly in my mind, when in actuality I'm flooring the place because I'm actually not bad at all at guitar, but I'd always end a set saying "man I'm terrible/that sucked/I could do better/I'm having an off night" or what the fuck ever. It was pissing people off, they thought I was being cocky because I played fantastic, but one little fuck up and I get self-conscious. So I'm working on the fucking attitude thing too. The truth is, I fucking hate everything I draw, I know it isn't good, I know that I'm not on par with anyone that posts on this motherfucking forum...

    THAT'S WHY I'M HERE. Y'know... to learn from others. To get help.

    But you know, it's cool. The "you suck at this game, uninstall life" style of critique is also constructive. And thanks for that.

    ninjai on
    Mice scratching at the walls inside of your head.
    This is a warning that my sig was too tall.
    You could have sent me a PM or something.
  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    The part about you being a dick, you read that just as I thought of it. About the other part, do get a brush, do improve your skill so you have drawings with more content to ink, more than just tracing or full black squares, grabbing a brush will do that a lot easier, and trying to work a little bit in gray tones with ink will also help you get rid of the tracing habit. But all this, Im just repeating my previous post with diferent words. Also, up the brightness and contrast a little bit in photoshop, duplicate the layer a couple of times and set them as multiply, its not rocket science, I dont even have photoshop but I recall someone saying something like that, it might work for making your stuff easier to read.

    And please leave other people alone if you want to flame me in any way, I say enough crap on my own for anyone to have more than sufficient quoting material.

    Edit: But really, leaving all smartassery aside, do grab a brush or a traditional stylus, with a flask of china ink, and you will find that inking has huge possibilities.
    Edit 2: Ive never used this tags so it MAY not work.
    Still, leaving the atrocity of the drawing, this was pretty much what I ment, its the only pic I have of a "process". And yes, I have gone to such lenghts as to dig many archives that were lost just to make a point in an internet argument! thats how busy I am at work today.

    lapizs.th.jpg tintay.th.jpg

    FANTOMAS on
Sign In or Register to comment.