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Diablo III: Thread over, much like windup wizard

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    SensationalSensational Registered User regular
    Matz wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Matz wrote: »
    Also - with SS and a bow I can usually fire off 3-5 ball lightnings before they hit anything. At the time of firing, if I have 100% crit, do they all crit? Or does the first crit reset the crit for the subsequent ones that are already on the way?

    As far as I can tell, the SS from crit resets when an attack hits.

    So if you're at 100% crit with SS, fire three shots, and the first one crits, the next 2 will retain the 100% crit from SS, and the next shot you fire will have the crit % from when it was fired.

    If so, then there is probably some advantage in kicking off with something like ball lightning in order to get a lot of guaranteed crits at the start.

    J described the way it worked on release, SS got stealth hotfixed 2+ months ago to properly reset one second after the first crit registers, so this tactic will not work. Before IAS and NT nerfs people would stack IAS, wait for SS to max out, then fire off 10-15 NTs that looked like a column with a really fast attack speed, then watch for the whole train crit on whatever they were shooting. It was sick and it doesn't work that way anymore. Only barbs get sick mechanics now.

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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    Has it even been worth crafting the "good" legendaries like Helm of Command (and ... is there even another worthwhile crafted legendary? ) in the past couple months since Brimstones have been 150k+?

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    MatzMatz Bronze Grandmaster FurieRegistered User regular
    Matz wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Matz wrote: »
    Also - with SS and a bow I can usually fire off 3-5 ball lightnings before they hit anything. At the time of firing, if I have 100% crit, do they all crit? Or does the first crit reset the crit for the subsequent ones that are already on the way?

    As far as I can tell, the SS from crit resets when an attack hits.

    So if you're at 100% crit with SS, fire three shots, and the first one crits, the next 2 will retain the 100% crit from SS, and the next shot you fire will have the crit % from when it was fired.

    If so, then there is probably some advantage in kicking off with something like ball lightning in order to get a lot of guaranteed crits at the start.

    J described the way it worked on release, SS got stealth hotfixed 2+ months ago to properly reset one second after the first crit registers, so this tactic will not work. Before IAS and NT nerfs people would stack IAS, wait for SS to max out, then fire off 10-15 NTs that looked like a column with a really fast attack speed, then watch for the whole train crit on whatever they were shooting. It was sick and it doesn't work that way anymore. Only barbs get sick mechanics now.

    Probably fair I guess. So you'll def want to get a reasonable amount of + crit chance to complement SS.

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    KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
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    MatzMatz Bronze Grandmaster FurieRegistered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »

    Can you spoiler a copy please?

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    _J_ wrote: »
    I imagine that I make more money from D3 than I would make sucking dick. But I wouldn't want to spend either my D3 or dick sucking money on gear.
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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Matz wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »

    Can you spoiler a copy please?
    Like the other classes, the wizard is also seeing a lot of tuning improvements to help promote build diversity. Rather than focus on those minor adjustments, though (which you'll be able to learn more about in the 1.0.4 patch notes), I’m going focus the majority of this preview on Hydra.
    Here are the major points I'll cover: •Skill design philosophy for Diablo as a whole •What makes Venom Hydra as strong as it is •Why, rather than nerfing Venom Hydra, we're simply going to buff all the other Hydra variants

    Nature of the Beast “...Hydra is an iconic skill in the wizard’s arsenal...”
    From a development standpoint, we love Hydra and put a lot of effort into its design. In fact, Hydra took many times more development time to create than an average skill. There are more art variants, more spell effects, and more lines of code associated with Hydra than almost any other wizard skill in the game (except potentially Archon). We did this because Hydra is an iconic skill in the wizard’s arsenal and we wanted it to stand out. When you’re in a multiplayer game and you see that Hydra spawn, it’s instantly recognizable. And for those who are familiar with the class, you can also immediately tell which rune variant a wizard is running with.
    Our goal for Hydra is to not just have each rune variant be visually distinct, but also for it to be better at something than the others. Specifically: •Arcane Hydra: Best at AoE •Lightning Hydra: Good against targets that move a lot •Venom Hydra: Good against targets that stand still •Frost Hydra: Good for snaring •Mammoth Hydra: Best in hallways

    New Tristram, We Have a Problem
    Despite these goals, it doesn’t take long to figure out that Venom Hydra is simply the best Hydra to use, regardless of the situation. This is mostly to do with its very high damage output. Although (technically) against fast-moving targets the Lightning Hydra does slightly more damage, Venom Hydra does three times more damage if you get the target to stand still, and that difference is simply too big to pass up.
    The other rune variants have similar issues. The range on the Frost Hydra is too short to be useful. The DPS loss Arcane Hydra takes for being good at AoE makes it too weak versus single targets (especially when you consider that most of the hard fights are against high health Elites). The niche for Mammoth Hydra is very narrow and, if you can get a target to stand still, Venom Hydra does more damage in hallways than Mammoth Hydra anyways.

    Five Heads Are Better Than One
    To address these issues, we’ve decided to boost the damage of Lightning, Frost, Arcane, and Mammoth Hydra. Venom Hydra will remain the best against stationary targets, but if the targets are moving in any way, Lightning should be a clear winner. The range of Frost Hydra has been more than doubled as well, which should allow it to fill the intended role of snaring. Arcane Hydra will do less damage than Venom Hydra versus a single target, but rather than doing approximately 60% less damage, choosing it should only cause about a 15-20% DPS hit against single targets -- and you should be much better against groups. Mammoth Hydra will be getting a modest bump, but ultimately "good in hallways" just doesn't seem like a very good specialty. We're going to keep an eye on this one for now, but down the road we’d like to find something much cooler for the Mammoth Hydra -- like giving it the ability to move around the battlefield without needing to be recast (just as an example).

    Skill Diversity “...from our point of view, it's okay for Venom Hydra to be extremely powerful...”
    One concern is how this change will affect skill diversity. If our goal is to promote a large variety of builds, why are we taking one of the most powerful wizard runes and then bumping all of the variants to match it rather than simply nerfing Venom Hydra?
    From our point of view, it's okay for Venom Hydra to be extremely powerful. One of the trickiest things throughout our design process has been creating lots of appealing skills. You only have six skill slots, so the more appealing skills we can make, the more significant your choice becomes of which skills earn a spot on your bar. If a Signature skill is on the strong side, it starts to trump the other Signature skills. If a Signature skill is way too strong then it starts to trump your Arcane Power spenders as well. This hurts build diversity. Similar situations exist for Arcane Power spenders, many defensive skills, and the trio of Armor skills (Ice Armor, Storm Armor, and Energy Armor).
    However, in the case of Hydra, the risk of trumping other skills is much lower. It’s totally okay for Hydra to be one of the most used skills because there’s still a lot of flexibility beyond making it your only source of DPS. If you can spare the skill slot, you’ll almost certainly want to combine it with a Signature skill to cast while the Hydra is out. If you can spare two skill slots, you can do even more damage by adding a secondary Arcane Power spender.

    Trigger-Happy
    While patch 1.0.4 has very few nerfs, one of them does affect the wizard. Rather than waiting for players to discover this change in the patch notes or while playing, I wanted to call it out here because it affects a build that I find to be quite cool and enjoy a lot. “...having well-balanced proc coefficients on all skills is not only better for Legendaries, but also for the long-term of the game...”
    Energy Twister is having its proc coefficient reduced from 0.25 to 0.125. For players who may not know what proc coefficients are: they affect how effectively a skill triggers procs (or effects that have a small chance to activate). Many skills (like Magic Missile) have a proc coefficient of 1. Skills that hit multiple targets or pulse multiple times have lower proc coefficients.
    In the case of Energy Twister, specifically Wicked Wind, the 0.25 proc coefficient causes the skill to generate more procs in a given time period than any other skill. Currently, this is used in combination with Critical Mass to lower the cooldown on skills like Frost Nova and Diamond Skin. By reducing the proc coefficient from 0.25 to 0.125, the build still works and remains fairly strong, but it won’t be quite as good as it is now. (For those with extremely high Crit rates, you may not even notice much difference, but I wanted to call it out anyway. )
    Originally, we weren’t going to make this change, but 1.0.4 also brings with it a number of new Legendary items, and many of them have phenomenal new proc effects. If we left high proc coefficients as they were, then a handful of skills with higher coefficients would become the de facto choice to use with these sexy new items. We were faced with a choice: we could either reduce the proc coefficient, or we could make it so these skills could not trigger the procs on Legendary items at all. We opted for the former because it seemed like getting a Legendary with a proc effect but never seeing it trigger would be very disappointing. Regardless, having well-balanced proc coefficients on all skills is not only better for Legendaries, but also for the game in the long term.

    Buffs, Buffs, and More Buffs
    The reduced proc coefficient is just a drop in the bucket, and overall wizards are seeing their fair share of buffing.
    In addition to the Hydra buffs, we're also increasing the damage of some lesser used Signature skill runes. A few skills are very popular right now such as Seeker (Magic Missile) and Piercing Orb (Shock Pulse), so we’ll be buffing the other runes to match. We'll be revisiting all of the other Signature skill runes with much the same philosophy as Hydra.
    Meteor and Arcane Torrent are both going to get buffs, as well, since neither of those feel strong enough to justify the Arcane Power expenditure. Meteor requires the player to correctly predict enemy movement in order to deal maximum damage, and Arcane Torrent requires you to stand still for extended periods of time to do damage. Since a player is putting in some extra effort to use these skills, some extra damage seems justified.

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    ChenChen Registered User regular
    Energy Twister nerfed. Boo this man.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    won't really matter unless you are gearing up in which case WW probably is too good compared to the other stuff

    they didn't really say much of anything though. 'hydra is getting better' with a footnote at the bottom

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    RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    Yeah I gotta agree that the proc rate on Wicked Wind needed a nerf. I'm still sad though.

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    ChenChen Registered User regular
    Why does it need a nerf? Sprint doesn't need a nerf according to Blizzard and that is a far better farming build.

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    MatzMatz Bronze Grandmaster FurieRegistered User regular
    Given the amount of time/gold I have invested in my DH to the detriment of other classes I will be gutted if the DH gets nerfed.

    My next highest is a Barb at 47 and a Wizard at 37 ish. Might need to get levelling.

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    _J_ wrote: »
    I imagine that I make more money from D3 than I would make sucking dick. But I wouldn't want to spend either my D3 or dick sucking money on gear.
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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Yeah I gotta agree that the proc rate on Wicked Wind needed a nerf. I'm still sad though.

    "We're going to leave things as they are and buff what people aren't using."

    Go team.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    because when you have some legendary weapon with 5% to proc ultimate destruction and 10 WWs going it's going to be mayhem and they decided that was too strog

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    RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    Good thing I didn't buy that 20m LOH wand I was looking at. Going to have to re-evaluate where I want my Wizard to go. I'm thinking Star Pact Meteor/Archon. Always loved Meteor and now it's getting a boost, woo!

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    ChenChen Registered User regular
    What? It will trivialize the content? I've got news for you then. Every class can trivialize the content. It's a matter of how fast you can do it and the Twister build is not one of the most efficient builds. But nope. No fun allowed.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    now it's not

    when there are some uber proc effects out there and WW is by far and away the most effective at procing them you might be saying otherwise

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    ChenChen Registered User regular
    Like Zeal?

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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    its pretty funny that blizz is doing the Witch Doctor update last, especially when the consensus on every other class is pretty good. It's like they're teasing us at this point.

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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    its pretty funny that blizz is doing the Witch Doctor update last, especially when the consensus on every other class is pretty good. It's like they're teasing us at this point.

    I think that they either don't know what to do to fix it, or are making pets so good that the flavor-of-the-week chasers roll WD.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    uh zeal what? zeal wasn't even the best paladin skill for procing things even if you discount the zeal lock and killed you again, smite was. lots of people built smiters just to kill the ubers

    Jars on
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    MatzMatz Bronze Grandmaster FurieRegistered User regular
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    its pretty funny that blizz is doing the Witch Doctor update last, especially when the consensus on every other class is pretty good. It's like they're teasing us at this point.

    And you know when they do get around to some serious work on the WD they will over-tune it into the most fiercesome, demon detroying, GOD ever to set forth in Sanctuary...

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    _J_ wrote: »
    I imagine that I make more money from D3 than I would make sucking dick. But I wouldn't want to spend either my D3 or dick sucking money on gear.
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    ChenChen Registered User regular
    There were procs that didn't factor in AR, but regardless, smiters weren't a good farming build.

    Anyway, I doubt they are going to allow broken procs. Looking at this page, they're more cute than omgwtfbbq.

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    BountyHunterBountyHunter Registered User regular
    OMG these changes are exciting... yay

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    BountyHunterBountyHunter Registered User regular
    @hexDex.. The wizard and barb changes are awesome hahah :D except the wicked wind nerf.. GG windups?

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    BountyHunterBountyHunter Registered User regular
    @HexDex ... With the wizard changes i think i can finally try out some builds i had in mind.. like using the frost hydra for snaring and load up on big dmg signature spells and arcane spenders... huhuh .. how exciting.

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    RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    I do feel a kind of validation in playing like maybe the only thing that's getting nerfed.

    Anyway it's not just about legendary procing, it's about procing in general. Archon builds would run WW to repop archon. You need to proc AP on crit or LOH or really anything WW was like the best skill by a large margin. It does make sense to bring it down a bit so it's a bit more comparable with other skills. Cutting it by half may be a bit harsh but we shall see. I think that having 3 pieces with AP on crit on them may be required for the build now.

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    BountyHunterBountyHunter Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    I do feel a kind of validation in playing like maybe the only thing that's getting nerfed.

    Anyway it's not just about legendary procing, it's about procing in general. Archon builds would run WW to repop archon. You need to proc AP on crit or LOH or really anything WW was like the best skill by a large margin. It does make sense to bring it down a bit so it's a bit more comparable with other skills. Cutting it by half may be a bit harsh but we shall see. I think that having 3 pieces with AP on crit on them may be required for the build now.

    i think CC/WW will still be viable but at higher gear tiers.. it will be harder to get entry level gear to do it..

    But i do find the build to be a bit boring.. . Energy Twister for me is boring..

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    shwaipshwaip Registered User regular
    source.png

    so I just bought this for 7k gold. The only disadvantage it has over my current source is it loses ~30 int. Did I end up with a steal, or is this just kind of a "meh" source.

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    RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    Damage is rather low, AP on crit is half what it could be, crit chance is a couple points lower than it could be. In absolute terms I think it's a bit meh, but for 7k that's a good starter.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    it's fine for 7k but the damage is fairly low

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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    The Wicked Wind build is the most blatantly broken thing currently in the game. Crit procs are just not supposed to work that way. Of all the skills that you can use with Critical Mass, that one rune with that one skill is the only thing that allows you to proc it so many times that you can literally keep up Diamond Skin indefinitely while also freezing all the monsters indefinitely. Come on.

    Zek on
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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    I do feel a kind of validation in playing like maybe the only thing that's getting nerfed.

    Anyway it's not just about legendary procing, it's about procing in general. Archon builds would run WW to repop archon. You need to proc AP on crit or LOH or really anything WW was like the best skill by a large margin. It does make sense to bring it down a bit so it's a bit more comparable with other skills. Cutting it by half may be a bit harsh but we shall see. I think that having 3 pieces with AP on crit on them may be required for the build now.

    i think CC/WW will still be viable but at higher gear tiers.. it will be harder to get entry level gear to do it..

    I'm sure it will still be "viable", given the nerfs to elite pack health.

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    themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    The Wicked Wind build is the most blatantly broken thing currently in the game. Crit procs are just not supposed to work that way. Of all the skills that you can use with Critical Mass, that one rune with that one skill is the only thing that allows you to proc it so many times that you can literally keep up Diamond Skin indefinitely while also freezing all the monsters indefinitely. Come on.

    That isn't an argument. It is a philosophy.

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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    The Wicked Wind build is the most blatantly broken thing currently in the game. Crit procs are just not supposed to work that way. Of all the skills that you can use with Critical Mass, that one rune with that one skill is the only thing that allows you to proc it so many times that you can literally keep up Diamond Skin indefinitely while also freezing all the monsters indefinitely. Come on.

    That isn't an argument. It is a philosophy.

    The proc coefficients are a system designed with a specific intent in mind, and that is to more or less regulate the frequency of these procs. As they pointed out, it's not just crits - that ratio is also used for Life on Hit and all other procs, including the newly amazing Legendary ones. If you leave in place one way to break the system and spam any proc with amazing consistency, now all of a sudden every proc in the game has to be designed with this sort of abuse in mind. It simply doesn't make sense. They should have hotfixed it the moment it surfaced. It's one thing for this to be possible with a godlike gear set that can break the game anyway, but that was not necessary for this build.

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    BountyHunterBountyHunter Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    I do feel a kind of validation in playing like maybe the only thing that's getting nerfed.

    Anyway it's not just about legendary procing, it's about procing in general. Archon builds would run WW to repop archon. You need to proc AP on crit or LOH or really anything WW was like the best skill by a large margin. It does make sense to bring it down a bit so it's a bit more comparable with other skills. Cutting it by half may be a bit harsh but we shall see. I think that having 3 pieces with AP on crit on them may be required for the build now.

    i think CC/WW will still be viable but at higher gear tiers.. it will be harder to get entry level gear to do it..

    I'm sure it will still be "viable", given the nerfs to elite pack health.

    Not if you cant proc enough AP to keep up Diamond skin/ Frostnova indefinately.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    now I'm wondering if I should take the 100m+ my wand is worth and wait for the new hotness of 1.04 or keep it because it will still be good

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    HexDexHexDex Registered User regular
    @hexDex.. The wizard and barb changes are awesome hahah :D except the wicked wind nerf.. GG windups?

    The one thing, the only thing I was afraid of about the wiz changes was announced haha. I hope Windup still viable even with the changes because I detest the class otherwise. Oh well. Not like it was my main or anything.

    Buffing cleave? YES PLEASE. I'm still not sure the dps boost on the fury spenders will be worth the slot on the bar, but we'll see how things shake down.

    I miss seismic slam. I'm pretty excited by the prospect of being able to move back to a 2h though.

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    BountyHunterBountyHunter Registered User regular
    HexDex wrote: »
    @hexDex.. The wizard and barb changes are awesome hahah :D except the wicked wind nerf.. GG windups?

    The one thing, the only thing I was afraid of about the wiz changes was announced haha. I hope Windup still viable even with the changes because I detest the class otherwise. Oh well. Not like it was my main or anything.

    Buffing cleave? YES PLEASE. I'm still not sure the dps boost on the fury spenders will be worth the slot on the bar, but we'll see how things shake down.

    I miss seismic slam. I'm pretty excited by the prospect of being able to move back to a 2h though.

    I dont think i'll ever move back to 2H. you swing so slow.. lol. UNLESS>> we can hold quivers.. because DH has 3 hands AMIRITE..??

    they didnt nerf CM though thank goodness.. They nerfed the more boring skill Wicked Wind YAY..

    Regardless, im more excited with the hydra improvements..

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    RofflorRofflor Adventurer Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    So in light of all these changes and how builds are now.

    Why in the fuck was Neather tentacles nerfed to oblivion? And will they revert the changes to it somehow?
    Whirlwind barbs, Wizards with super op builds and other shit is still in, but neather tentacles was somehow "to op".

    Rofflor on
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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    probably because every single demon hunter used it as their main damage skill

This discussion has been closed.