I'd avoid the Dune sequels, to be honest. Messiah is good, but the next two range from silly to immensely tedious. Five and six get things back on track somewhat but end on a never to be fulfilled cliffhanger. Best stick with Dune, really.
I strongly recommend Dune Messiah. The third I still liked. I forget how far I got after that, but it wasn't pretty.
I actually really enjoy the Dune sequels, as well as the new books by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. Since Duncan was my favorite character from original Dune, they satisfy my craving for all Duncan, all the time
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A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
i'm zeroing in on the end of this Peter the Great bio. i feel like i've been reading this forever.
I think I'll take a happy break and dive into some fantasy i've got lined up on the kindle.
Do I attempt Mistborn? Or do I retry the King Raven series?
JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Dune Messiah is short(ish), well-written, fills out the Dune world in interesting ways, brings Paul's story to a worthwhile close, and has a kind of melancholy tone that seems a lot more appropriate to the overall arc of Paul's story than the triumphal ending of the first novel. I think if you've already read Dune, you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by reading Messiah, but you're not missing a whole lot by not going further.
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Really have been digging the Wool series. Finished the omnibus and now am reading the shift trilogy. The first two are published and its fascinating. The next one is out in February I think.
Speaking of rereading Gene Wolfe books, I'm slowly rereading book of the long sun
Gene Wolfe is really good at making a story all about something without you even noticing suspecting until halfway into the story, and then when you reread it it's like, "Oh god, Silk's telling people what's going down in chapter 2, but nobody knows what he's talking about!"
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I need to reread Long Sun. I've done New Sun four times now but the Long Sun and Short Sun only the once, and with any book, movie, or videogame that I think is worthwhile, I never really feel like I have a handle on it until I've done it at least twice.
I'm specifically trying to reread it more analytically this time. Relax, read it slow and just get a grasp on Wolfe's trickses. Like when Silk's looking for a sacrificial animal in chapter 2 at the marketplace, he's looking for a "victim for the gods," which is sort of a strange choice of words for a priest, you'd think. And then he gives a little speech about the Outsider, and what exactly he's outside OF and vice versa that all the other gods are "inside", that you just don't really have the information to understand yet but is actually being pretty darn explicit and shows that he knows a heck of a lot more of what's going on than he acts like through most of the story.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Long Sun is especially tricky because it seems so plain and unornamented compared to New Sun (or anything else of his, really). He eschews a lot of his usual habits - there's no narrator, the vocabulary is a bit more accessible, and so forth - but it turns out that just serves the same purpose as a magician totally clearing the stage.
Yeah, to continue the analogy new sun is the big stage magic show with lots of flash and glitz and a main character in tight leather pants who totally has sexy sex with all his sexy lady assistants, fer reals guys.
Long sun (especially the first 1.5 books or so) by contrast is a dude, an empty table, a ball, and a couple of cups. It is on the surface just a story about a low-ranking priest trying to save his shitty temple from foreclosure. and it works really really well on that level. But there's also a whole other thing going on that you hardly even notice at first because dude, if Silk doesn't save the temple the slum kids won't have a place to learn to read!
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Dune Messiah is short(ish), well-written, fills out the Dune world in interesting ways, brings Paul's story to a worthwhile close, and has a kind of melancholy tone that seems a lot more appropriate to the overall arc of Paul's story than the triumphal ending of the first novel. I think if you've already read Dune, you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by reading Messiah, but you're not missing a whole lot by not going further.
I agree.
Although I do recommend Children of Dune as I felt it was a worthwhile contribution to the ideas at hand.
My problem starts after that since I don't think the sequels to CoD really present any reason to exist. CoD basically ends with a laying down of "this is what's gonna happen over the next long-ass-time" and the rest of the books seem to exist to go "Yup".
I need to reread Long Sun. I've done New Sun four times now but the Long Sun and Short Sun only the once, and with any book, movie, or videogame that I think is worthwhile, I never really feel like I have a handle on it until I've done it at least twice.
I believe you haven't really gotten a handle on a piece of narrative art until you've reread/rewatched/replayed it.
Once you know everything that's going to happen, you start noticing how it happens and start seeing deeper into the work itself.
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Grudgeblessed is the mind too small for doubtRegistered Userregular
Long Sun is especially tricky because it seems so plain and unornamented compared to New Sun (or anything else of his, really). He eschews a lot of his usual habits - there's no narrator, the vocabulary is a bit more accessible, and so forth - but it turns out that just serves the same purpose as a magician totally clearing the stage.
Well, actually
there is a narrator, it's just not revealed until the last chapter although it is hinted to at the beginning. It explains some of the silly cuts in the action during the second half of the story.
Something that I found interesting is that several of the sequences that I didn't enjoy very much during my first read, for example people faffing about too long in the tunnels beneath the city, feels more ok when considered metaphorically and in regard to mythology - the tunnels representing the Underworld, Orpheus and Eurydice etc.
Dune Messiah is short(ish), well-written, fills out the Dune world in interesting ways, brings Paul's story to a worthwhile close, and has a kind of melancholy tone that seems a lot more appropriate to the overall arc of Paul's story than the triumphal ending of the first novel. I think if you've already read Dune, you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by reading Messiah, but you're not missing a whole lot by not going further.
This man speaks the truth. I feel they almost should have been the same book.
Dune Messiah is short(ish), well-written, fills out the Dune world in interesting ways, brings Paul's story to a worthwhile close, and has a kind of melancholy tone that seems a lot more appropriate to the overall arc of Paul's story than the triumphal ending of the first novel. I think if you've already read Dune, you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by reading Messiah, but you're not missing a whole lot by not going further.
I agree.
Although I do recommend Children of Dune as I felt it was a worthwhile contribution to the ideas at hand.
My problem starts after that since I don't think the sequels to CoD really present any reason to exist. CoD basically ends with a laying down of "this is what's gonna happen over the next long-ass-time" and the rest of the books seem to exist to go "Yup".
Also, Duncan Idaho: Why won't they let you die.
Dune series major plot spoiler:
Because he's the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach and all his reincarnations are leading up to the moment when that is revealed and he is able to unite the humans and thinking machines.
But I'll admit, it takes a certain person to want to continue reading the Dune series after Dune: Messiah and Children of Dune. A certain kind of crazy Dune-phile who is so caught up in everything that they love the universe and want to devour everything about it, even past all reason and when things are just becoming repetitive. Kind of like those crazies who are still reading Wheel of Time
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BobCescaIs a girlBirmingham, UKRegistered Userregular
Dune Messiah is short(ish), well-written, fills out the Dune world in interesting ways, brings Paul's story to a worthwhile close, and has a kind of melancholy tone that seems a lot more appropriate to the overall arc of Paul's story than the triumphal ending of the first novel. I think if you've already read Dune, you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by reading Messiah, but you're not missing a whole lot by not going further.
I've always felt it's worth reading Dune, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune but that stopping there is the best idea.
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Tiger BurningDig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tuberegular
Dune Messiah is short(ish), well-written, fills out the Dune world in interesting ways, brings Paul's story to a worthwhile close, and has a kind of melancholy tone that seems a lot more appropriate to the overall arc of Paul's story than the triumphal ending of the first novel. I think if you've already read Dune, you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by reading Messiah, but you're not missing a whole lot by not going further.
I agree.
Although I do recommend Children of Dune as I felt it was a worthwhile contribution to the ideas at hand.
My problem starts after that since I don't think the sequels to CoD really present any reason to exist. CoD basically ends with a laying down of "this is what's gonna happen over the next long-ass-time" and the rest of the books seem to exist to go "Yup".
Also, Duncan Idaho: Why won't they let you die.
Dune series major plot spoiler:
Because he's the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach and all his reincarnations are leading up to the moment when that is revealed and he is able to unite the humans and thinking machines.
But I'll admit, it takes a certain person to want to continue reading the Dune series after Dune: Messiah and Children of Dune. A certain kind of crazy Dune-phile who is so caught up in everything that they love the universe and want to devour everything about it, even past all reason and when things are just becoming repetitive. Kind of like those crazies who are still reading Wheel of Time
huh? that's not right.
oh that's the Brian Herbert stuff. Yeah, the Frank Herbert books kind of disappear down the rabbit hole after Messiah, but the Brian Herbert books are absolutely terrible. Fan fiction bad.
Dune Messiah is short(ish), well-written, fills out the Dune world in interesting ways, brings Paul's story to a worthwhile close, and has a kind of melancholy tone that seems a lot more appropriate to the overall arc of Paul's story than the triumphal ending of the first novel. I think if you've already read Dune, you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by reading Messiah, but you're not missing a whole lot by not going further.
I agree.
Although I do recommend Children of Dune as I felt it was a worthwhile contribution to the ideas at hand.
My problem starts after that since I don't think the sequels to CoD really present any reason to exist. CoD basically ends with a laying down of "this is what's gonna happen over the next long-ass-time" and the rest of the books seem to exist to go "Yup".
Also, Duncan Idaho: Why won't they let you die.
Dune series major plot spoiler:
Because he's the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach and all his reincarnations are leading up to the moment when that is revealed and he is able to unite the humans and thinking machines.
But I'll admit, it takes a certain person to want to continue reading the Dune series after Dune: Messiah and Children of Dune. A certain kind of crazy Dune-phile who is so caught up in everything that they love the universe and want to devour everything about it, even past all reason and when things are just becoming repetitive. Kind of like those crazies who are still reading Wheel of Time
huh? that's not right.
oh that's the Brian Herbert stuff. Yeah, the Frank Herbert books kind of disappear down the rabbit hole after Messiah, but the Brian Herbert books are absolutely terrible. Fan fiction bad.
I appear to be the only person, in the world, who enjoyed Frank Herbert's Dune 4-6. Or at least, the only person in the thread. They are, it's true, all kinds of demented. But they're also interesting reading, showing up the whole long term impact of the decisions made through Dune (and Messiah, and Children), and talking about humanity rather than individuals. It all gets a bit quasi-msytical, but I still go back to them every so often. But you could, as others have said, easily read Dune , maybe Messiah, then let it go.
Brian Herbert's stuff on the other hand...not so much.
After I finish Sword & Citadel, what should I break into next:
-Dune
-the Wool omnibus
-The Snow Leopard by P. Mattheisen
-Hyperion by D Simmons
I take it The Book of the New Sun should be on my list of "important stuff to read"?
I would definitely recommend New Sun. The world and narrative Wolfe build up are totally incredible and original. A lot of sci/fi fantasy that comes highly recommended to me follows a really predictable setting and formula, but that couldn't be further from the truth with New Sun. I'm certainly going to have to reread it at some point to squeeze all the juice out of it, but it'll have to wait till my massive backlog gets trimmed down a bit.
Funny that the thread's talking about the Gene Wolfe Sun books, I just looked at them on amazon my last batch, and couldn't figure out where to begin/how to start.. I think I might try and score a copy of the omnibus, after I get done with the batch I just picked up (got Peace by him as well.)
Just finished Lost at Sea The Jon Ronson Mysteries.. Pretty good. Just a collection of his investigative articles (some unpublished) ranging from ICP to the financial collapse to the Who wants to be a Millionaire cheater, and first contact. Definitely a good read. Would strongly recommend. Probably picking up Under Heaven or the aforementioned Peace next, as soon as they get here (might pick something else up to read electrnically if I get time this weekend..)
I'm a horrible sucker for the Dune books. I have read (I think) every single book relating to that universe that exists. Brian Herbert's books that use the Dune name are not all horrible, but the way the ending plays out as written by him is very disappointing. His father could have done that ending justice, he did not. The ones that take place thousands of years earlier in the history, with a completely different set of characters, are much more interesting to me. While still not written to the standards of the original, they are of acceptable quality I feel. I do have an abnormally high tolerance for bad writing, though . . .
I've been contemplating picking up some of these Gene Wolfe books now that I have a lot more free time, any suggestions on a good place to start in on those?
Ive read a couple (a couple of the House books and then one maybe two of the robot war books) of the Brian Herbert Dune books but Ive never actually finished Dune. Granted, I think the last time I tried to read Dune I was a high school freshman at best. I should really try to read Dune again, I really like the Universe.
Actually, I feel like my reading list keeps getting longer. Most pressingly I have:
Finish His Dark Materials trilogy (since Im 12 now)
The Hobbit
Lord of the Rings trilogy
Game Change
Stranger in a Strange Land
Plus whatever else is on my really long reading list that I have stored as a document somewhere.
I'm reading World War Z, almost as a favor for my zombie-fanatic friend. I myself find zombies to be boring and played out, so it's little wonder that I'm not enjoying it. I'm halfway thru and this book sure is a slog.. Some things, like seeing how various world governments deal with the outbreaks, are interesting, but then there's an action scene of soldiers getting overwhelmed by the zombies and I just zone out.
I'm reading World War Z, almost as a favor for my zombie-fanatic friend. I myself find zombies to be boring and played out, so it's little wonder that I'm not enjoying it. I'm halfway thru and this book sure is a slog.. Some things, like seeing how various world governments deal with the outbreaks, are interesting, but then there's an action scene of soldiers getting overwhelmed by the zombies and I just zone out.
Ugh. Zombies.
As someone who also doesn't care about zombies anymore and did not like the book, I say you might want to just cut your losses now before you get to the part where you learn how they finally deal with the zombies.
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Grudgeblessed is the mind too small for doubtRegistered Userregular
edited December 2012
Speaking of Dune, I enjoyed the first three, plus God Emperor of Dune, if not only
as a perspective on the fate Pault couldn't handle, which gives some extra insight into his motivations in Dune Messiah.
The last ones, Chapterhouse etc. didn't do anything for me, only dull politics and flat characters that was impossible to care about. The only remotely interesting thing was the revelation of the nature of the Tleilaxu Axlotl tanks.
Grudge on
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Mojo_JojoWe are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourseRegistered Userregular
I'm reading World War Z, almost as a favor for my zombie-fanatic friend. I myself find zombies to be boring and played out, so it's little wonder that I'm not enjoying it. I'm halfway thru and this book sure is a slog.. Some things, like seeing how various world governments deal with the outbreaks, are interesting, but then there's an action scene of soldiers getting overwhelmed by the zombies and I just zone out.
Ugh. Zombies.
It's not a great read even if you aren't fundamentally bored with the core concept. Abandon ship.
Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
I listened to the audiobook of WWZ. It had different actors voicing each character's chapters, and a few sound effects I think. It was more like an audioplay than a novel. I really enjoyed it.
However, I don't watch/read/play anything else with zombies in it, so I'm not zombied-out like most people are.
if you think Dune get's weird a view books in you guys should try reading Destination: Void and it's sort-of-sequels. That is some wacked out mamajama.
RiemannLives on
Attacked by tweeeeeeees!
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I'm a horrible sucker for the Dune books. I have read (I think) every single book relating to that universe that exists. Brian Herbert's books that use the Dune name are not all horrible, but the way the ending plays out as written by him is very disappointing. His father could have done that ending justice, he did not. The ones that take place thousands of years earlier in the history, with a completely different set of characters, are much more interesting to me. While still not written to the standards of the original, they are of acceptable quality I feel. I do have an abnormally high tolerance for bad writing, though . . .
I've been contemplating picking up some of these Gene Wolfe books now that I have a lot more free time, any suggestions on a good place to start in on those?
The Book of the New Sun is his big one and a good place to start, but if you're looking for something a bit smaller you could start with The Fifth Head of Cerberus.
I believe you haven't really gotten a handle on a piece of narrative art until you've reread/rewatched/replayed it.
Once you know everything that's going to happen, you start noticing how it happens and start seeing deeper into the work itself.
Joe Abercrombie's The First Law trilogy was like that for me. I really loathed the ending of the third book (you know the one) the first time I read it, but when I re-read the trilogy I appreciated it more because I knew what was coming and could see the signs and clues I missed the first time.
Echo on
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pyromaniac221this just might bean interestin YTRegistered Userregular
Count of Monte Cristo (finally) complete. Dare I follow it up with Infinite Jest?
psn tooaware, friend code SW-4760-0062-3248 it me
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
edited December 2012
Picked up Reamde yesterday, I'm about a quarter of the way into it and I'm liking it. I love Snow Crash and Diamond Age but obviously it's nothing like either of those. I loved Cryptonomicon even more, and it kind of riffs off that as far as the different narrators / extended family of the main character but it's not the same - each of the Cryptonomicon POV characters are all pretty badass at their particular things; everyone in Reamde is kind of lame in comparison. Still, it's interesting, and I dig the Stephenson infodumps, so there's that.
EDIT: AAaaaaaand shit just got real in an apartment building, and the plot thickens.
SummaryJudgment on
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
Random thoughts: I think it was here that I heard someone opine about Stephenson's "almost fetishistic" detail of weapons in the book. And it's kind of there, the opening scene is the first POV character having his annual reunion/shootout at the family compound. Yet, I don't know why Stephenson keeps referring to "clips" when incorrect usage of that word has become so much of an internet meta in-joke that I feel like anybody versed at all in internet culture knows better, let alone him.
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
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lu tzeSweeping the monestary steps.Registered Userregular
If I were a popular author, I'd do that on purpose just to troll the fuck out of gun nerds tbh.
I'd even write an appendix stating that the magazines have clips inside them so technically I'm not wrong. And anyway language is fluid, it changes with use. Clip is now commonly accepted as meaning magazine so it doesn't matter. Besides they're future guns, they don't have detachable magazines, you load them with a clip.
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It's an interesting universe, but he just kept trying to out weird himself and fucked it right up (IMO).
I strongly recommend Dune Messiah. The third I still liked. I forget how far I got after that, but it wasn't pretty.
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I take it The Book of the New Sun should be on my list of "important stuff to read"?
Probably twice, actually
I think I'll take a happy break and dive into some fantasy i've got lined up on the kindle.
Do I attempt Mistborn? Or do I retry the King Raven series?
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I had a good time with The Briar King. First in a series of four books, apparently called The Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone, by Greg Keyes.
but they don't really add anything I found unmissable. I think I was better off reading just the first book.
Im mainly trying to get through my kindle backlog now.
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Gene Wolfe is really good at making a story all about something without you even noticing suspecting until halfway into the story, and then when you reread it it's like, "Oh god, Silk's telling people what's going down in chapter 2, but nobody knows what he's talking about!"
Long sun (especially the first 1.5 books or so) by contrast is a dude, an empty table, a ball, and a couple of cups. It is on the surface just a story about a low-ranking priest trying to save his shitty temple from foreclosure. and it works really really well on that level. But there's also a whole other thing going on that you hardly even notice at first because dude, if Silk doesn't save the temple the slum kids won't have a place to learn to read!
I agree.
Although I do recommend Children of Dune as I felt it was a worthwhile contribution to the ideas at hand.
My problem starts after that since I don't think the sequels to CoD really present any reason to exist. CoD basically ends with a laying down of "this is what's gonna happen over the next long-ass-time" and the rest of the books seem to exist to go "Yup".
Also, Duncan Idaho: Why won't they let you die.
I believe you haven't really gotten a handle on a piece of narrative art until you've reread/rewatched/replayed it.
Once you know everything that's going to happen, you start noticing how it happens and start seeing deeper into the work itself.
Well, actually
Something that I found interesting is that several of the sequences that I didn't enjoy very much during my first read, for example people faffing about too long in the tunnels beneath the city, feels more ok when considered metaphorically and in regard to mythology - the tunnels representing the Underworld, Orpheus and Eurydice etc.
This man speaks the truth. I feel they almost should have been the same book.
Dune series major plot spoiler:
But I'll admit, it takes a certain person to want to continue reading the Dune series after Dune: Messiah and Children of Dune. A certain kind of crazy Dune-phile who is so caught up in everything that they love the universe and want to devour everything about it, even past all reason and when things are just becoming repetitive. Kind of like those crazies who are still reading Wheel of Time
3DS Friend Code: 1821-8991-4141
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I've always felt it's worth reading Dune, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune but that stopping there is the best idea.
huh? that's not right.
oh that's the Brian Herbert stuff. Yeah, the Frank Herbert books kind of disappear down the rabbit hole after Messiah, but the Brian Herbert books are absolutely terrible. Fan fiction bad.
I appear to be the only person, in the world, who enjoyed Frank Herbert's Dune 4-6. Or at least, the only person in the thread. They are, it's true, all kinds of demented. But they're also interesting reading, showing up the whole long term impact of the decisions made through Dune (and Messiah, and Children), and talking about humanity rather than individuals. It all gets a bit quasi-msytical, but I still go back to them every so often. But you could, as others have said, easily read Dune , maybe Messiah, then let it go.
Brian Herbert's stuff on the other hand...not so much.
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I would definitely recommend New Sun. The world and narrative Wolfe build up are totally incredible and original. A lot of sci/fi fantasy that comes highly recommended to me follows a really predictable setting and formula, but that couldn't be further from the truth with New Sun. I'm certainly going to have to reread it at some point to squeeze all the juice out of it, but it'll have to wait till my massive backlog gets trimmed down a bit.
Just finished Lost at Sea The Jon Ronson Mysteries.. Pretty good. Just a collection of his investigative articles (some unpublished) ranging from ICP to the financial collapse to the Who wants to be a Millionaire cheater, and first contact. Definitely a good read. Would strongly recommend. Probably picking up Under Heaven or the aforementioned Peace next, as soon as they get here (might pick something else up to read electrnically if I get time this weekend..)
I've been contemplating picking up some of these Gene Wolfe books now that I have a lot more free time, any suggestions on a good place to start in on those?
Actually, I feel like my reading list keeps getting longer. Most pressingly I have:
Finish His Dark Materials trilogy (since Im 12 now)
The Hobbit
Lord of the Rings trilogy
Game Change
Stranger in a Strange Land
Plus whatever else is on my really long reading list that I have stored as a document somewhere.
Ugh. Zombies.
As someone who also doesn't care about zombies anymore and did not like the book, I say you might want to just cut your losses now before you get to the part where you learn how they finally deal with the zombies.
The last ones, Chapterhouse etc. didn't do anything for me, only dull politics and flat characters that was impossible to care about. The only remotely interesting thing was the revelation of the nature of the Tleilaxu Axlotl tanks.
However, I don't watch/read/play anything else with zombies in it, so I'm not zombied-out like most people are.
The Book of the New Sun is his big one and a good place to start, but if you're looking for something a bit smaller you could start with The Fifth Head of Cerberus.
Joe Abercrombie's The First Law trilogy was like that for me. I really loathed the ending of the third book (you know the one) the first time I read it, but when I re-read the trilogy I appreciated it more because I knew what was coming and could see the signs and clues I missed the first time.
EDIT: AAaaaaaand shit just got real in an apartment building, and the plot thickens.
I'd even write an appendix stating that the magazines have clips inside them so technically I'm not wrong. And anyway language is fluid, it changes with use. Clip is now commonly accepted as meaning magazine so it doesn't matter. Besides they're future guns, they don't have detachable magazines, you load them with a clip.
I can feel them twitching from here.