I have almost finished Frankenstein by Mary Shelly.
this is the saddest book i have ever read. I think the last time I cried after reading a book was Of Mice and Men when I was a freshman in high school.
I did not expect this. The pop culture portrayal of this work is completely irrevelent.
@JacobKosh several years ago I think 2010 I posted about Blood Meridian in one of these threads and you responded with a great post but I can not find it and it is frustrating me.
oh I think that was the review I wrote way back when. hold on, lemme go find it.
This was one of those things where I'd heard about the book, in bits and pieces, for years: namechecked by William Gibson in Virtual Light and by Garth Ennis in Preacher, yapped about by online friends, and requested every so often by customers at the bookstore where I once worked. You know how this kind of thing goes: after a while, all these name-droppings have a cumulative impact, flipping a little switch in your brain one day and sending you off in search of the item in question. So that's how I came to Blood Meridian - knowing the book by its notorious reputation alone and little else. Having finally finished it, I can say that its notoriety is richly deserved, but that's hardly the whole story.
The premise could be described for the ADD among you as Huckleberry Finn meets Natural Born Killers, which hardly sounds flattering, I'm sure, but bear with me. The story opens on the peregrinations of the Kid, a vicious, knife-fighting fourteen-year-old runaway from Tennessee who in 1848 drifts down the Mississippi first to New Orleans and thence to Texas, where he falls in with a rogue Army unit making a piratical raid into Mexico. After Apaches wipe out the unit in the Sonora desert, the Kid lands in a Mexican jail, where he meets and is recruited by a group of bounty hunters retained by the government to collect Indian scalps as retaliation for a string of Apache massacres in remote border villages.
Here is where the story really begins. The Kid is absorbed into the gang, a collection of opportunists, outlaws, drifters and psychopaths presided over by two domineering personalities: the nominal leader of the group, Ike Glanton, a mercenary ex-soldier with a nasty temper and a deep vein of sadism, and Glanton's advisor, the fat, hairless, urbane, and utterly mercurial Judge Holden. The gang finds an Indian tribe - not the marauders but a peaceful fishing village - and slaughters it utterly. But unable to catch the ever-elusive Apaches, the company elects to pursue easier prey; namely, the defenseless villages and mining camps littering the arid wastes of the Southwest. As their bounty hunt turns into a genocidal murder spree, the gang, and even Glanton, forget their simple mercenary aspirations and become increasingly captivated by the magnetism of the Judge, who tells them they are agents of a pitiless natural law, high priests sacrificing the undeserving to a blood-soaked pagan god.
The Kid, his ego subsumed by the group organism, essentially disappears from the book as Glanton and the Judge assume center stage. Occasional chapters deal with other members of the gang - an apostate priest, a runaway slave - but their individuality is eventually consumed too. The narrative becomes increasingly distant and godlike - rather than seeing their surroundings through the eyes of the gang, we see the gang from the point of view of, for instance, the wind passsing through their camp. They go beyond a place where most readers could follow, so like elusive elementary particles, we have to look for understanding in the marks left by their passage.
The book is a fantasia of luridly-described, Hammer-horror violence set against a landscape whose harsh geography is, like the wildernesses of the Bible or the open seas of Melvile, spiritual in nature as well as temporal, a place where men come to commune with higher or lower powers. In fact, as a quick glance at Amazon shows, it's nigh-on impossible to review this book without invoking Melville or the Bible. McCarthy's prose seems to have rumbled out of the hollow places of the earth itself; even his descriptions of innocuities like tumbleweeds and roadrunners can sound like passages from "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."
Let me be clear: this book is not a "revisionist western." It is not an apologia. McCarthy is not tut-tutting and bewailing the fate of the proud, noble Indian; in point of fact, many of the Indians in this book are as messed-up and psychopathic as the whites. His vision is bigger than that. He's talking about the nature of violence - the little stain of destructive insanity in all of us that is not adequately explained by genetics or psychology or class theory. Original sin, if you like. The problem, as McCarthy sees it, is not that white people are bad. It is not even that civilization is bad - the natives, as McCarthy reminds us, had a civilization too. The problem is that people have evil inside of them at a fundamental level, and when they're cut loose from their moorings and isolated in an unforgiving environment, that mindless, all-consuming blackness is free to bubble up to the surface.
So yeah. The book is as dense and heavy-duty as it sounds - indeed, even at a slim 350 pages it's tough going. I had to take a couple of long breaks to cleanse my literary palate with lighter fare. But even so, I predict I will be coming back to Blood Meridian often in the future - like a pile of bloodsoaked treasure, there are ample rewards here for people willing to get their hands dirty, and like murder, it can only get easier with practice.
I have almost finished Frankenstein by Mary Shelly.
this is the saddest book i have ever read. I think the last time I cried after reading a book was Of Mice and Men when I was a freshman in high school.
I did not expect this. The pop culture portrayal of this work is completely irrevelent.
@JacobKosh several years ago I think 2010 I posted about Blood Meridian in one of these threads and you responded with a great post but I can not find it and it is frustrating me.
oh I think that was the review I wrote way back when. hold on, lemme go find it.
This was one of those things where I'd heard about the book, in bits and pieces, for years: namechecked by William Gibson in Virtual Light and by Garth Ennis in Preacher, yapped about by online friends, and requested every so often by customers at the bookstore where I once worked. You know how this kind of thing goes: after a while, all these name-droppings have a cumulative impact, flipping a little switch in your brain one day and sending you off in search of the item in question. So that's how I came to Blood Meridian - knowing the book by its notorious reputation alone and little else. Having finally finished it, I can say that its notoriety is richly deserved, but that's hardly the whole story.
The premise could be described for the ADD among you as Huckleberry Finn meets Natural Born Killers, which hardly sounds flattering, I'm sure, but bear with me. The story opens on the peregrinations of the Kid, a vicious, knife-fighting fourteen-year-old runaway from Tennessee who in 1848 drifts down the Mississippi first to New Orleans and thence to Texas, where he falls in with a rogue Army unit making a piratical raid into Mexico. After Apaches wipe out the unit in the Sonora desert, the Kid lands in a Mexican jail, where he meets and is recruited by a group of bounty hunters retained by the government to collect Indian scalps as retaliation for a string of Apache massacres in remote border villages.
Here is where the story really begins. The Kid is absorbed into the gang, a collection of opportunists, outlaws, drifters and psychopaths presided over by two domineering personalities: the nominal leader of the group, Ike Glanton, a mercenary ex-soldier with a nasty temper and a deep vein of sadism, and Glanton's advisor, the fat, hairless, urbane, and utterly mercurial Judge Holden. The gang finds an Indian tribe - not the marauders but a peaceful fishing village - and slaughters it utterly. But unable to catch the ever-elusive Apaches, the company elects to pursue easier prey; namely, the defenseless villages and mining camps littering the arid wastes of the Southwest. As their bounty hunt turns into a genocidal murder spree, the gang, and even Glanton, forget their simple mercenary aspirations and become increasingly captivated by the magnetism of the Judge, who tells them they are agents of a pitiless natural law, high priests sacrificing the undeserving to a blood-soaked pagan god.
The Kid, his ego subsumed by the group organism, essentially disappears from the book as Glanton and the Judge assume center stage. Occasional chapters deal with other members of the gang - an apostate priest, a runaway slave - but their individuality is eventually consumed too. The narrative becomes increasingly distant and godlike - rather than seeing their surroundings through the eyes of the gang, we see the gang from the point of view of, for instance, the wind passsing through their camp. They go beyond a place where most readers could follow, so like elusive elementary particles, we have to look for understanding in the marks left by their passage.
The book is a fantasia of luridly-described, Hammer-horror violence set against a landscape whose harsh geography is, like the wildernesses of the Bible or the open seas of Melvile, spiritual in nature as well as temporal, a place where men come to commune with higher or lower powers. In fact, as a quick glance at Amazon shows, it's nigh-on impossible to review this book without invoking Melville or the Bible. McCarthy's prose seems to have rumbled out of the hollow places of the earth itself; even his descriptions of innocuities like tumbleweeds and roadrunners can sound like passages from "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."
Let me be clear: this book is not a "revisionist western." It is not an apologia. McCarthy is not tut-tutting and bewailing the fate of the proud, noble Indian; in point of fact, many of the Indians in this book are as messed-up and psychopathic as the whites. His vision is bigger than that. He's talking about the nature of violence - the little stain of destructive insanity in all of us that is not adequately explained by genetics or psychology or class theory. Original sin, if you like. The problem, as McCarthy sees it, is not that white people are bad. It is not even that civilization is bad - the natives, as McCarthy reminds us, had a civilization too. The problem is that people have evil inside of them at a fundamental level, and when they're cut loose from their moorings and isolated in an unforgiving environment, that mindless, all-consuming blackness is free to bubble up to the surface.
So yeah. The book is as dense and heavy-duty as it sounds - indeed, even at a slim 350 pages it's tough going. I had to take a couple of long breaks to cleanse my literary palate with lighter fare. But even so, I predict I will be coming back to Blood Meridian often in the future - like a pile of bloodsoaked treasure, there are ample rewards here for people willing to get their hands dirty, and like murder, it can only get easier with practice.
i'll read that eagerly.
but i'm referring to a specific post. I posted about how I didn't know what to make about The Judge. If he was the devil or what not.
we were talking about why someone so well educated would chose a life of violence.
Tiger BurningDig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tuberegular
They rode all day upon a pale gastine sparsely grown with saltbush and panicgrass. In the evening they entrained upon a hollow ground that rang so roundly under the horses' hooves that they stepped and sidled and rolled their eyes like circus animals and that night as they lay in that ground each heard, all heard, the dull boom of rock falling somewhere far below them in the awful darkness inside the world.
Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
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Mojo_JojoWe are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourseRegistered Userregular
You're bang on the money with it being unrelated to the pop culture "Frankenstein". It's really interesting to see something overtaken by it's own spin off.
Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
Now I am finally on to Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion", which was lying around for a few years now. Anybody read it? How big a pinch of salt do I have to take this with?
Meh. There's really nothing much in it that's not already in his other books.
If you want to read his best work, get The Ancestor's Tale which is one of the most outstanding popular science books I have ever read.
Now I am finally on to Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion", which was lying around for a few years now. Anybody read it? How big a pinch of salt do I have to take this with?
Meh. There's really nothing much in it that's not already in his other books.
If you want to read his best work, get The Ancestor's Tale which is one of the most outstanding popular science books I have ever read.
Well, I haven't read any other books on the subject, so it is all new to me anyway.
I'll give The Ancestor's Tale a look though, thanks for the suggestion.
They rode all day upon a pale gastine sparsely grown with saltbush and panicgrass. In the evening they entrained upon a hollow ground that rang so roundly under the horses' hooves that they stepped and sidled and rolled their eyes like circus animals and that night as they lay in that ground each heard, all heard, the dull boom of rock falling somewhere far below them in the awful darkness inside the world.
That sounds like the excessively detailed prose of Cormac McCarthy, is that right?
Also, I'm a bad nerd and never read Old Man's War until this week. I must say I rather enjoyed it, but according to one of my friends books 2 and 3 are kind of meh but 4 is worth reading. Anyone else who has read the series have an opinion on that? He also said that book 4 is so loosely related to the series that you wouldn't miss anything if you picked it up without reading 2 and 3.
CommunistCow on
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
In the process of reading Lost at Sea by Jon Ronson. If you ever wanted to know more about agnostic turning Christians, Robots, Stanley Kubrick's estate and more this books for you.
They rode all day upon a pale gastine sparsely grown with saltbush and panicgrass. In the evening they entrained upon a hollow ground that rang so roundly under the horses' hooves that they stepped and sidled and rolled their eyes like circus animals and that night as they lay in that ground each heard, all heard, the dull boom of rock falling somewhere far below them in the awful darkness inside the world.
That sounds like the excessively detailed prose of Cormac McCarthy, is that right?
Also, I'm a bad nerd and never read Old Man's War until this week. I must say I rather enjoyed it, but according to one of my friends books 2 and 3 are kind of meh but 4 is worth reading. Anyone else who has read the series have an opinion on that? He also said that book 4 is so loosely related to the series that you wouldn't miss anything if you picked it up without reading 2 and 3.
I'm not sure if I read 4. I think I gave up halfway through 3.
I certainly wouldn't bother with 2 or 3.
I figure I could take a bear.
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Tiger BurningDig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tuberegular
They rode all day upon a pale gastine sparsely grown with saltbush and panicgrass. In the evening they entrained upon a hollow ground that rang so roundly under the horses' hooves that they stepped and sidled and rolled their eyes like circus animals and that night as they lay in that ground each heard, all heard, the dull boom of rock falling somewhere far below them in the awful darkness inside the world.
That sounds like the excessively detailed prose of Cormac McCarthy, is that right?
Also, I'm a bad nerd and never read Old Man's War until this week. I must say I rather enjoyed it, but according to one of my friends books 2 and 3 are kind of meh but 4 is worth reading. Anyone else who has read the series have an opinion on that? He also said that book 4 is so loosely related to the series that you wouldn't miss anything if you picked it up without reading 2 and 3.
Blood Meridian, yup.
I tried to read Old Man's War a few months back and couldn't get into it. Gave up maybe half way through. Him and Heinlein just have a style that turns me right off.
I have almost finished Frankenstein by Mary Shelly.
this is the saddest book i have ever read. I think the last time I cried after reading a book was Of Mice and Men when I was a freshman in high school.
I did not expect this. The pop culture portrayal of this work is completely irrevelent.
@JacobKosh several years ago I think 2010 I posted about Blood Meridian in one of these threads and you responded with a great post but I can not find it and it is frustrating me.
Gah, I couldn't wait to be through with that book. Like 80% of the book was the bipolar protagonist freaking out and doing nothing about his rather terrible problem. I haven't seen any of the Frankenstein movies so I only know the very basics of the pop-culture version, and I liked this flimsy version a lot better than the authentic one, which is extremely unusual for me.
I'm re-reading Speaker for the Dead right now, and it is still fantastic. I nearly missed my bus stop a few times I am so enthralled by it.
Frankenstein was never really very well known when it was first published, iirc, but it was later adapted for the stage where it was a big hit and then for very early film, so it's basically the play that everyone is familiar with
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited December 2012
Recently Finished
Snowflake / Different Streets by Eileen Myles Dispatch from the Future by Leigh Stein The Sore Throat and Other Poems by Aaron Kunin
Currently in Progress
The Odyssey by Homer Titus Groan by Mervyn Peake The Theater and its Double Antonin Artaud The Burial of the Count of Orgaz and Other Poems by Pablo Picasso
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lu tzeSweeping the monestary steps.Registered Userregular
edited December 2012
Ah, Odyssey. I used to have a massive paperback edition with all kinds of historical references and translation notes in it. Lent it to a friend and he lost it.
Seriously, it was the size of a radiator. You could've used it for ballast, how the fuck do you lose something like that?
Ah, Odyssey. I used to have a massive paperback edition with all kinds of historical references and translation notes in it. Lent it to a friend and he lost it.
Seriously, it was the size of a radiator. You could've used it for ballast, how the fuck do you lose something like that?
Some translators forgo absolute accuracy for better prose. Hard to say which is better really.
It's interesting to contrast Odyssey and Iliad with Aeneid. The Romans really didn't like Odysseus much!
I originally grabbed the Fagles translation but it seemed too loose. Leitner has tried to translate the rhythms of the text into a line that makes sense in English. Enjoying it a lot so far (about 2/3 of the way through). I only read a section every few days though.
I liked the miniseries Pillars of the Earth, but haven't read the book.
I liked pillars of the earth for the fact that a dude actually wrote a big long book about someone trying to build a cathedral
But... Honestly everything else in that book was pretty bad. I burned through it when I first got it, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Characters wildly change personality depending on the needs of the plot, the villain keeps showing up at random intervals so he can have another "let's go rape a peasant" scene, the main character is not a very likeable or interesting dude, and the world itself doesn't feel very convincingly fleshed out.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I have almost finished Frankenstein by Mary Shelly.
this is the saddest book i have ever read. I think the last time I cried after reading a book was Of Mice and Men when I was a freshman in high school.
I did not expect this. The pop culture portrayal of this work is completely irrevelent.
@JacobKosh several years ago I think 2010 I posted about Blood Meridian in one of these threads and you responded with a great post but I can not find it and it is frustrating me.
Gah, I couldn't wait to be through with that book. Like 80% of the book was the bipolar protagonist freaking out and doing nothing about his rather terrible problem. I haven't seen any of the Frankenstein movies so I only know the very basics of the pop-culture version, and I liked this flimsy version a lot better than the authentic one, which is extremely unusual for me.
I have to say the highlights for me are certainly not Frankenstein's relations and his struggle with his secret.
The beginning was fascinating to me. Men on an exploring vessel in the Arctic see a giant man on a dog sled a few miles away. Then they rescue a different man, also on a dog sled, whose only concern is "the one who fled from me."
The monster's monologues are by far the best parts. Those are the parts that made me cry.
I had little knowledge of the Bible when I first read it. I didn't really understand why he might be called the Judge. "What is he a judge of?" as the kid asked.
The Biblical judges (Samson et al) were military leaders appointed by God to lead the scattered Israelites post Moses. I had never heard Holden compared to these types of judges, but I didn't read much outside text about the book. It makes more sense than comparing him to what we think of as contemporary judges in the legal system anyway.
I liked the miniseries Pillars of the Earth, but haven't read the book.
I liked pillars of the earth for the fact that a dude actually wrote a big long book about someone trying to build a cathedral
But... Honestly everything else in that book was pretty bad. I burned through it when I first got it, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Characters wildly change personality depending on the needs of the plot, the villain keeps showing up at random intervals so he can have another "let's go rape a peasant" scene, the main character is not a very likeable or interesting dude, and the world itself doesn't feel very convincingly fleshed out.
It's melodrama at it's melodramaist.
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
I have just started Blood Meridian and I am waiting for it to get good. I have just got to the part where the kid joins the cavalry or expedition or something.
So far it's just been, "one shitheel meets another shitheel and they hang out for awhile, plus imma tell you about every little thing except the interesting bits, which I'll skip ahead of so you only get a little idea of what happened."
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Just started reading Liminal States by Zack Parsons. So far it's kind of a gritty, dirty western. My wife devoured it, though, and reviews seem positive. Interested to see where it goes.
I actually asked Zack a question about the overall tone, since the first chapter didn't much appeal to me simply by being so blithely gross, and he did state that it's not thematically dirty/gritty. It's been on my to-read list for a while due to that interaction.
Normally I would recommend Hyperion, but yeah, Dune first
What's the Wool omnibus? Never heard of it.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I'd avoid the Dune sequels, to be honest. Messiah is good, but the next two range from silly to immensely tedious. Five and six get things back on track somewhat but end on a never to be fulfilled cliffhanger. Best stick with Dune, really.
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oh I think that was the review I wrote way back when. hold on, lemme go find it.
i'll read that eagerly.
but i'm referring to a specific post. I posted about how I didn't know what to make about The Judge. If he was the devil or what not.
we were talking about why someone so well educated would chose a life of violence.
Meh. There's really nothing much in it that's not already in his other books.
If you want to read his best work, get The Ancestor's Tale which is one of the most outstanding popular science books I have ever read.
Well, I haven't read any other books on the subject, so it is all new to me anyway.
I'll give The Ancestor's Tale a look though, thanks for the suggestion.
y'all should read it
the plot is excellent and twisty and I love how your perceptions of the characters change as the book progresses
That sounds like the excessively detailed prose of Cormac McCarthy, is that right?
Also, I'm a bad nerd and never read Old Man's War until this week. I must say I rather enjoyed it, but according to one of my friends books 2 and 3 are kind of meh but 4 is worth reading. Anyone else who has read the series have an opinion on that? He also said that book 4 is so loosely related to the series that you wouldn't miss anything if you picked it up without reading 2 and 3.
I'm not sure if I read 4. I think I gave up halfway through 3.
I certainly wouldn't bother with 2 or 3.
Blood Meridian, yup.
I tried to read Old Man's War a few months back and couldn't get into it. Gave up maybe half way through. Him and Heinlein just have a style that turns me right off.
Gah, I couldn't wait to be through with that book. Like 80% of the book was the bipolar protagonist freaking out and doing nothing about his rather terrible problem. I haven't seen any of the Frankenstein movies so I only know the very basics of the pop-culture version, and I liked this flimsy version a lot better than the authentic one, which is extremely unusual for me.
I'm re-reading Speaker for the Dead right now, and it is still fantastic. I nearly missed my bus stop a few times I am so enthralled by it.
Snowflake / Different Streets by Eileen Myles
Dispatch from the Future by Leigh Stein
The Sore Throat and Other Poems by Aaron Kunin
Currently in Progress
The Odyssey by Homer
Titus Groan by Mervyn Peake
The Theater and its Double Antonin Artaud
The Burial of the Count of Orgaz and Other Poems by Pablo Picasso
Seriously, it was the size of a radiator. You could've used it for ballast, how the fuck do you lose something like that?
Which translation you got?
The Leitner Translation.
I recall enjoying Hammer of Eden, many years ago.
I liked the miniseries Pillars of the Earth, but haven't read the book.
Some translators forgo absolute accuracy for better prose. Hard to say which is better really.
It's interesting to contrast Odyssey and Iliad with Aeneid. The Romans really didn't like Odysseus much!
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I originally grabbed the Fagles translation but it seemed too loose. Leitner has tried to translate the rhythms of the text into a line that makes sense in English. Enjoying it a lot so far (about 2/3 of the way through). I only read a section every few days though.
I liked pillars of the earth for the fact that a dude actually wrote a big long book about someone trying to build a cathedral
But... Honestly everything else in that book was pretty bad. I burned through it when I first got it, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Characters wildly change personality depending on the needs of the plot, the villain keeps showing up at random intervals so he can have another "let's go rape a peasant" scene, the main character is not a very likeable or interesting dude, and the world itself doesn't feel very convincingly fleshed out.
I have to say the highlights for me are certainly not Frankenstein's relations and his struggle with his secret.
The beginning was fascinating to me. Men on an exploring vessel in the Arctic see a giant man on a dog sled a few miles away. Then they rescue a different man, also on a dog sled, whose only concern is "the one who fled from me."
The monster's monologues are by far the best parts. Those are the parts that made me cry.
I had little knowledge of the Bible when I first read it. I didn't really understand why he might be called the Judge. "What is he a judge of?" as the kid asked.
The Biblical judges (Samson et al) were military leaders appointed by God to lead the scattered Israelites post Moses. I had never heard Holden compared to these types of judges, but I didn't read much outside text about the book. It makes more sense than comparing him to what we think of as contemporary judges in the legal system anyway.
It's melodrama at it's melodramaist.
So far it's just been, "one shitheel meets another shitheel and they hang out for awhile, plus imma tell you about every little thing except the interesting bits, which I'll skip ahead of so you only get a little idea of what happened."
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
One of his best series IMO, second only to the Lyonesse books.
If you haven't read any Jack Vance, go and get Lyonesse I right now.
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After I finish Sword & Citadel, what should I break into next:
-Dune
-the Wool omnibus
-The Snow Leopard by P. Mattheisen
-Hyperion by D Simmons
Dune is fucking awesome, though, kinda like the seminal work for a whole subgenre.
Dune all the way. Required reading.
What's the Wool omnibus? Never heard of it.
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