That would likely provoke an immediate response from China. The last thing Kim wants is to force his neighbors to choose sides; the diplomatic and trade situations have been altered too radically since the armistice.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
If NK wasn't isolated already, if they kidnapped a high profile US ambassador / negotiator they would be done. Full blockade, Special Forces rescue planned, all that fun shit.
Most likely dear leader's head would come back with utmost apologies from the elites as they send Clinton home.
China wouldn't be able to fuck around with that, you don't kidnap ambassadors or negotiators.
If they executed the negotiator, expect full regime change.
South Korea activists believe he was arrested for taking pictures of starving children.
The Associated Press news agency also reports that he is described by friends as a devout Christian ... North Korea has arrested several US citizens in recent years, including journalists and Christians accused of proselytising.
With things as they currently are it probably won't be that easy to get him back. Hell the North Koreans probably went hunting far and wide for an American to kidnap before they found this guy. Expect his forthcoming execution to be threatened constantly for the foreseeable future.
He's not being executed, he's been sentenced to 15 year's hard labor in what is effectively a Gulag. So a death sentence, basically.
The thing is, even if all that happens is the U.S sends a high-profile ambassador and nothing happens after, this still works in Chubster's favor (can we all start calling him that from now on?). You can bet your left nut he'll plaster that shit all over the state-owned media, "Look at this! They're sending Bill Clinton to negotiate with dear leader! And now they have to agree to our demands! Look how important we are! Of course there's a part of me that thinks with their back against a wall like it is... what if they keep the negotiator? Obviously the U.S isn't going to give NK anything of consequence for a random tour guide, but what if it was one of the Clintons, for instance? Would this be a "send in the SEALS" situation, or more of a "SEND EVERYONE"?
South Korea activists believe he was arrested for taking pictures of starving children.
The Associated Press news agency also reports that he is described by friends as a devout Christian ... North Korea has arrested several US citizens in recent years, including journalists and Christians accused of proselytising.
South Korea activists believe he was arrested for taking pictures of starving children.
The Associated Press news agency also reports that he is described by friends as a devout Christian ... North Korea has arrested several US citizens in recent years, including journalists and Christians accused of proselytising.
What a fucking moron.
eh.
I recently heard the story of a nun who broke into a nuclear-waste dump and was fully prepared to be shot by guards. She wanted to get rid of nuclear weapons and the knowledge behind them or something? She and her comrades actually surrendered to a guard because apparently we're incompetent at securing such facilities. So the Faithful doing the things they Believe in isn't necessarily, moronic. If this actually is the case it's not like he's a hiker who got "lost".
If he's a person who wants to help North Koreans out, he's not doing it right. He's a moron. He's giving KJU a body to parade around to try and get political points, and he's giving North Korea one more mouth to feed, or another dead, starved body.
I'm also going to say that your nun is also a moron, at least given what you are saying. You don't get rid of nuclear weapons and the knowledge behind them or something by doing what she did.
People don't get a pass on being a moron because they Feel Strongly about something.
You don't get rid of knowledge, period. How would you even do that? Ask every physicist to get drunk until they forget everything they learned about nuclear physics? Burn every textbook and research paper you can find?
And more importantly, why would you do that? The knowledge can still be rediscovered, especially now that we know it's possible and that we're 60 years more technologically advanced than we were when we first discovered it. So I'll give you three guesses as to what will happen within a week after you've "gotten rid" of the knowledge to build nuclear weapons...
If he's a devout Christian / fanatic, on it's face the circumstances make it look like he WANTS to be a martyr. I mean...someone doesn't go into NK expecting otherwise - this outcome should be no surprise to anyone who hasn't been in a coma for the past sixty years.
He got what he asked for. It sucks for him, but I'm inclined to say we should put his release down at the bottom of our list of demands. He can be a token traded back to us as 'goodwill', or used to open discussion if we wish...but I really don't think any effort should be spent securing his release. Basically, sending a Clinton over there is just encouraging this kind of behavior in the future.
This isn't like Lee and Ling where there is a major question if they ever entered NK in the first place. This is some guy who willingly went into their country because of his beliefs.
With the nun / other people who broke into Oak Ridge...it's noble, but I'm not sure what they realistically hoped to accomplish. Nukes aren't going away, regardless of how many nuns spray-paint processing facilities and splash blood on them. If they just wanted to be arrested and charged with illegal entry, well...they are going to get what they wanted.
If you are going to protest with civil disobedience, accepting responsibility and the charges that go with it are part of the protest.
If he's a devout Christian / fanatic, on it's face the circumstances make it look like he WANTS to be a martyr. I mean...someone doesn't go into NK expecting otherwise - this outcome should be no surprise to anyone who hasn't been in a coma for the past sixty years.
He got what he asked for. It sucks for him, but I'm inclined to say we should put his release down at the bottom of our list of demands. He can be a token traded back to us as 'goodwill', or used to open discussion if we wish...but I really don't think any effort should be spent securing his release. Basically, sending a Clinton over there is just encouraging this kind of behavior in the future.
This isn't like Lee and Ling where there is a major question if they ever entered NK in the first place. This is some guy who willingly went into their country because of his beliefs.
With the nun / other people who broke into Oak Ridge...it's noble, but I'm not sure what they realistically hoped to accomplish. Nukes aren't going away, regardless of how many nuns spray-paint processing facilities and splash blood on them. If they just wanted to be arrested and charged with illegal entry, well...they are going to get what they wanted.
If you are going to protest with civil disobedience, accepting responsibility and the charges that go with it are part of the protest.
I don't know, I certainly understand the argument, and it makes sense, but a big part of me will always be a prepubescent boy who's thinking "No! I want my stuff People Back!
He might be an idiot, but he's our idiot!"
If he's a devout Christian / fanatic, on it's face the circumstances make it look like he WANTS to be a martyr. I mean...someone doesn't go into NK expecting otherwise - this outcome should be no surprise to anyone who hasn't been in a coma for the past sixty years.
He got what he asked for. It sucks for him, but I'm inclined to say we should put his release down at the bottom of our list of demands. He can be a token traded back to us as 'goodwill', or used to open discussion if we wish...but I really don't think any effort should be spent securing his release. Basically, sending a Clinton over there is just encouraging this kind of behavior in the future.
This isn't like Lee and Ling where there is a major question if they ever entered NK in the first place. This is some guy who willingly went into their country because of his beliefs.
With the nun / other people who broke into Oak Ridge...it's noble, but I'm not sure what they realistically hoped to accomplish. Nukes aren't going away, regardless of how many nuns spray-paint processing facilities and splash blood on them. If they just wanted to be arrested and charged with illegal entry, well...they are going to get what they wanted.
If you are going to protest with civil disobedience, accepting responsibility and the charges that go with it are part of the protest.
I don't know, I certainly understand the argument, and it makes sense, but a big part of me will always be a prepubescent boy who's thinking "No! I want my stuff People Back!
He might be an idiot, but he's our idiot!"
But yeah, that's not really a logical argument.
I agree with you and on one hand feel the same way.
On the other, I kind of put it on a par with the people who want to fly a balloon around the world and keep needing to be rescued. We should make a reasonable effort to care for those people and address their needs, but not at the expense of other priorities / interests / concerns.
With someone who willingly goes into North Korea, we should make an effort to request their release, along with the normal condemnations and 'demands' for fair treatment during their imprisonment. If an opportunity comes up to ensure his release (or rescue) we should take it. But in no way should we jeopardize long-term interests or weaken our position to do so.
If he's a devout Christian / fanatic, on it's face the circumstances make it look like he WANTS to be a martyr. I mean...someone doesn't go into NK expecting otherwise - this outcome should be no surprise to anyone who hasn't been in a coma for the past sixty years.
He got what he asked for. It sucks for him, but I'm inclined to say we should put his release down at the bottom of our list of demands. He can be a token traded back to us as 'goodwill', or used to open discussion if we wish...but I really don't think any effort should be spent securing his release. Basically, sending a Clinton over there is just encouraging this kind of behavior in the future.
This isn't like Lee and Ling where there is a major question if they ever entered NK in the first place. This is some guy who willingly went into their country because of his beliefs.
With the nun / other people who broke into Oak Ridge...it's noble, but I'm not sure what they realistically hoped to accomplish. Nukes aren't going away, regardless of how many nuns spray-paint processing facilities and splash blood on them. If they just wanted to be arrested and charged with illegal entry, well...they are going to get what they wanted.
If you are going to protest with civil disobedience, accepting responsibility and the charges that go with it are part of the protest.
I don't know, I certainly understand the argument, and it makes sense, but a big part of me will always be a prepubescent boy who's thinking "No! I want my stuff People Back!
He might be an idiot, but he's our idiot!"
But yeah, that's not really a logical argument.
I agree with you and on one hand feel the same way.
On the other, I kind of put it on a par with the people who want to fly a balloon around the world and keep needing to be rescued. We should make a reasonable effort to care for those people and address their needs, but not at the expense of other priorities / interests / concerns.
With someone who willingly goes into North Korea, we should make an effort to request their release, along with the normal condemnations and 'demands' for fair treatment during their imprisonment. If an opportunity comes up to ensure his release (or rescue) we should take it. But in no way should we jeopardize long-term interests or weaken our position to do so.
Kind of like those bleeding heart Japanese students who traveled to Iraq right around when America invaded to lend humanitarian aid and protest but then those students were kidnapped by Iraqis and held at gunpoint for ransom. The Japanese government eventually paid the ransom after a few months.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
You guys are being really hard on this guy considering we don't actually know what he did because the entity telling us what he did is North Korea.
Additionally, I really doubt he wanted to be sentenced to 15 years hard labor in NK, so stop saying that.
You guys are being really hard on this guy considering we don't actually know what he did because the entity telling us what he did is North Korea.
Additionally, I really doubt he wanted to be sentenced to 15 years hard labor in NK, so stop saying that.
1)He's an American.
2)He entered NK intentionally and of his own free will
3)He was not on some sort of US sanctioned mission, be it ambassador/negotiator/good will tour BS.
That's really all you need to know about his activities to label him an idiot.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
You guys are being really hard on this guy considering we don't actually know what he did because the entity telling us what he did is North Korea.
Additionally, I really doubt he wanted to be sentenced to 15 years hard labor in NK, so stop saying that.
1)He's an American.
2)He entered NK intentionally and of his own free will
3)He was not on some sort of US sanctioned mission, be it ambassador/negotiator/good will tour BS.
That's really all you need to know about his activities to label him an idiot.
1) He owns a tour company and was there with 5 other people doing his job as a tour guide.
2) He had been there before with no incident.
3) This happened in November prior to the ramp up of hostility. Citation
Far from idiotic activities. I think people are just quick to jump on his Christianity label (lol idiot religious nut lol) and jump to the conclusion he's a missionary with a martyr complex.
You guys are being really hard on this guy considering we don't actually know what he did because the entity telling us what he did is North Korea.
Additionally, I really doubt he wanted to be sentenced to 15 years hard labor in NK, so stop saying that.
1)He's an American.
2)He entered NK intentionally and of his own free will
3)He was not on some sort of US sanctioned mission, be it ambassador/negotiator/good will tour BS.
That's really all you need to know about his activities to label him an idiot.
1) He owns a tour company and was there with 5 other people doing his job as a tour guide.
2) He had been there before with no incident.
3) This happened in November prior to the ramp up of hostility. Citation
Far from idiotic activities. I think people are just quick to jump on his Christianity (religious nut, lol idiot) label and jump to the conclusion he's a missionary with a martyr complex.
I honestly didn't know anything about the dude's religion. On the other hand, he is an American tour guide in North Korea, a nation notably lacking anything resembling a) a tourism industry, b) a benign attitude towards Americans or c) an unwillingness to jail the fuck out of people for the crime of not being in jail.
How is that not an idiotic activity? It's like holding a purity ball on the slopes of Mauna Loa; everyone knows how the story is going to end.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
- John Stuart Mill
+2
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
You guys are being really hard on this guy considering we don't actually know what he did because the entity telling us what he did is North Korea.
Additionally, I really doubt he wanted to be sentenced to 15 years hard labor in NK, so stop saying that.
1)He's an American.
2)He entered NK intentionally and of his own free will
3)He was not on some sort of US sanctioned mission, be it ambassador/negotiator/good will tour BS.
That's really all you need to know about his activities to label him an idiot.
1) He owns a tour company and was there with 5 other people doing his job as a tour guide.
2) He had been there before with no incident.
3) This happened in November prior to the ramp up of hostility. Citation
Far from idiotic activities. I think people are just quick to jump on his Christianity (religious nut, lol idiot) label and jump to the conclusion he's a missionary with a martyr complex.
I honestly didn't know anything about the dude's religion. On the other hand, he is an American tour guide in North Korea, a nation notably lacking anything resembling a) a tourism industry, b) a benign attitude towards Americans or c) an unwillingness to jail the fuck out of people for the crime of not being in jail.
How is that not an idiotic activity? It's like holding a purity ball on the slopes of Mauna Loa; everyone knows how the story is going to end.
Most of the people discussing this dude in the thread have made a point of saying he's Christian. Not even sure why that matters really.
In response to the bolded, Rason, the area he was in, is specifically made for tourism. Like it actively encourages spending foreign currency and attracting visitors. As far as the attitude towards Americans, it wasn't as bad back in November. And the last point is true, but considering he is in Rason consistently with his tourism groups and his connection to multiple businesses in the area, its not as idiotic.
You guys are being really hard on this guy considering we don't actually know what he did because the entity telling us what he did is North Korea.
Additionally, I really doubt he wanted to be sentenced to 15 years hard labor in NK, so stop saying that.
1)He's an American.
2)He entered NK intentionally and of his own free will
3)He was not on some sort of US sanctioned mission, be it ambassador/negotiator/good will tour BS.
That's really all you need to know about his activities to label him an idiot.
1) He owns a tour company and was there with 5 other people doing his job as a tour guide.
2) He had been there before with no incident.
3) This happened in November prior to the ramp up of hostility. Citation
Far from idiotic activities. I think people are just quick to jump on his Christianity (religious nut, lol idiot) label and jump to the conclusion he's a missionary with a martyr complex.
I honestly didn't know anything about the dude's religion. On the other hand, he is an American tour guide in North Korea, a nation notably lacking anything resembling a) a tourism industry, b) a benign attitude towards Americans or c) an unwillingness to jail the fuck out of people for the crime of not being in jail.
How is that not an idiotic activity? It's like holding a purity ball on the slopes of Mauna Loa; everyone knows how the story is going to end.
Most of the people discussing this dude in the thread have made a point of saying he's Christian. Not even sure why that matters really.
In response to the bolded, Rason, the area he was in, is specifically made for tourism. Like it actively encourages spending foreign currency and attracting visitors. As far as the attitude towards Americans, it wasn't as bad back in November. And the last point is true, but considering he is in Rason consistently with his tourism groups and his connection to multiple businesses in the area, its not as idiotic.
So, what's the big tourism draw there? I mean it's obviously not the shopping or the food. Do they let you watch a starving child, watching you blow twice their parents' annual income on a spin of the roulette wheel?
As for their attitude towards Americans, I think we have different definitions of bad relations. Just as a personal rule of thumb, if, in the past year, a nation has stated their preparedness and willingness to fight a nuclear war against my country, I'm not going there; it's pretty clear we are not friends.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Well, it's not like everyone is starving, the upper class have it rather well. So those areas, that have the restaurants and whatever. Plus, they still have centuries of history that some people may be curious about.
Those areas will be nice, unlike the 98% of the country that you aren't allowed to go to, because it's a hellhole of human rights violations.
I'd sure as fuck never go there on purpose, but I'm sure some people might.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
There are regular tours reported on in the media - the most recent one being that academic/student tour from LSE in London, the one that had the BBC covert reporting.
I know a couple of people who've been, but I think that was more official, under a diplomatic visit.
You guys are being really hard on this guy considering we don't actually know what he did because the entity telling us what he did is North Korea.
Additionally, I really doubt he wanted to be sentenced to 15 years hard labor in NK, so stop saying that.
1)He's an American.
2)He entered NK intentionally and of his own free will
3)He was not on some sort of US sanctioned mission, be it ambassador/negotiator/good will tour BS.
That's really all you need to know about his activities to label him an idiot.
1) He owns a tour company and was there with 5 other people doing his job as a tour guide.
2) He had been there before with no incident.
3) This happened in November prior to the ramp up of hostility. Citation
Far from idiotic activities. I think people are just quick to jump on his Christianity (religious nut, lol idiot) label and jump to the conclusion he's a missionary with a martyr complex.
I honestly didn't know anything about the dude's religion. On the other hand, he is an American tour guide in North Korea, a nation notably lacking anything resembling a) a tourism industry, b) a benign attitude towards Americans or c) an unwillingness to jail the fuck out of people for the crime of not being in jail.
How is that not an idiotic activity? It's like holding a purity ball on the slopes of Mauna Loa; everyone knows how the story is going to end.
Most of the people discussing this dude in the thread have made a point of saying he's Christian. Not even sure why that matters really.
Probably because most of the articles about him only describe him in three terms: American, tour operator, and Christian. If Christian is one of the first words anyone uses to describe you, odds are it means you're more-than-averagely religious. I mean, I'm an atheist, but I'd never expect anyone to describe me as "Scooter, the Atheist Engineer".
I know several (American) people who have been to North Korea for entirely legitimate purposes. It's not idiocy to go. It's just a risk.
I'd be inclined to agree. My university (in the US) had a program where they regularly sent students visiting South Korea to visit Kaesong for an afternoon, rub elbows with some North Korean factory managers, etc. I wonder if the program is still going on, but they tried to do it every year, and were successful on occasion.
On the perception of Americans in North Korea proper...amid everything else (a tyrannical monarchist government, the famine, etc.) the devastation of the Korean War where the US Air Force destroyed pretty much every single urban center in the country with an extensive bombing campaign has probably left a negative impression. Add to the fact that government propaganda has played that up to a huge degree--even without that angle, it's still hardly a positive experience. I know my grandparents thought Americans were fine, but if you mentioned the bombing campaign that destroyed 90% of the country in the '40s, they'd admit they didn't really care for the American government or military. And that's with decades of positive propaganda reinforcement.
Whatever the case, I imagine propaganda has taken its effect anyway. We're talking about an incredible degree of "brainwashing".
I know several (American) people who have been to North Korea for entirely legitimate purposes. It's not idiocy to go. It's just a risk.
I'd be inclined to agree. My university (in the US) had a program where they regularly sent students visiting South Korea to visit Kaesong for an afternoon, rub elbows with some North Korean factory managers, etc. I wonder if the program is still going on, but they tried to do it every year, and were successful on occasion.
On the perception of Americans in North Korea proper...amid everything else (a tyrannical monarchist government, the famine, etc.) the devastation of the Korean War where the US Air Force destroyed pretty much every single urban center in the country with an extensive bombing campaign has probably left a negative impression. Add to the fact that government propaganda has played that up to a huge degree--even without that angle, it's still hardly a positive experience. I know my grandparents thought Americans were fine, but if you mentioned the bombing campaign that destroyed 90% of the country in the '40s, they'd admit they didn't really care for the American government or military. And that's with decades of positive propaganda reinforcement.
Whatever the case, I imagine propaganda has taken its effect anyway. We're talking about an incredible degree of "brainwashing".
From what I remember reading, the NK propaganda doesn't mention the American bombing campaigns much at all. To use it, they would have to admit that Kim Il Sung had been unable to protect the Koreans from the Americans.
There are regular tours reported on in the media - the most recent one being that academic/student tour from LSE in London, the one that had the BBC covert reporting.
I know a couple of people who've been, but I think that was more official, under a diplomatic visit.
You ride Splash Mountain, you may get wet. You visit a despotic, dystopian nightmare that routinely denounces your country, you may get tossed in the dungeon by their insane, giggling god-emperor. Either way, your choice, your fault. Terrible, yes, but still your damn fault.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I know several (American) people who have been to North Korea for entirely legitimate purposes. It's not idiocy to go. It's just a risk.
I'd be inclined to agree. My university (in the US) had a program where they regularly sent students visiting South Korea to visit Kaesong for an afternoon, rub elbows with some North Korean factory managers, etc. I wonder if the program is still going on, but they tried to do it every year, and were successful on occasion.
On the perception of Americans in North Korea proper...amid everything else (a tyrannical monarchist government, the famine, etc.) the devastation of the Korean War where the US Air Force destroyed pretty much every single urban center in the country with an extensive bombing campaign has probably left a negative impression. Add to the fact that government propaganda has played that up to a huge degree--even without that angle, it's still hardly a positive experience. I know my grandparents thought Americans were fine, but if you mentioned the bombing campaign that destroyed 90% of the country in the '40s, they'd admit they didn't really care for the American government or military. And that's with decades of positive propaganda reinforcement.
Whatever the case, I imagine propaganda has taken its effect anyway. We're talking about an incredible degree of "brainwashing".
From what I remember reading, the NK propaganda doesn't mention the American bombing campaigns much at all. To use it, they would have to admit that Kim Il Sung had been unable to protect the Koreans from the Americans.
Interesting. From what I've read in the past, and have been recently hearing from "experts" (given where we are now, I wonder just how "expert" they are) it is used--there isn't really a cognitive dissonance here (or if there is, it's not one that can't be overcome). I mean, clearly, the United States exists. In fact, it's a dangerous military power that actively threatens their government in the Korean Peninsula. So clearly, someone failed. But through self-reliance, they continue to exist. Americans are a threat, and they have done very negative things (from the perspective of the North) in the past. Hence while they'll do it again.
Plus, having your entire country razed to the ground during war within a human lifespan is pretty memorable. I don't think you could square "Oh, yeah, the Americans aren't a threat at all" with the thousands of kilometers of underground tunnels and complexes that North Koreans have become used to as a part of daily life, preparing for the final showdown. It'd be like refusing to acknowledge the threat posed by the modern, well-trained, ideologically-conditioned and well-equipped South Korean military, because if you did, clearly you'd have to acknowledge the failure to conquer the South during the war.
Despite the deep influence of Japanese ideology on North Korean thinking, the Japanese are depicted as enemies with whom there can be no reconciliation, and much the same goes for Americans. The author notes that North Korean dictionaries and schoolbooks portray Americans in sub-human terms, as having "muzzles", "snouts" and "paws", and while the Korean War of the early 1950s occupies a central place in anti-American propaganda, there is little stress on the US Air Force's extensive bombing campaign as this "is hard to reconcile with the myth of a protective Leader" and the regime focuses instead on village massacres and other more isolated outrages.
Despite the deep influence of Japanese ideology on North Korean thinking, the Japanese are depicted as enemies with whom there can be no reconciliation, and much the same goes for Americans. The author notes that North Korean dictionaries and schoolbooks portray Americans in sub-human terms, as having "muzzles", "snouts" and "paws", and while the Korean War of the early 1950s occupies a central place in anti-American propaganda, there is little stress on the US Air Force's extensive bombing campaign as this "is hard to reconcile with the myth of a protective Leader" and the regime focuses instead on village massacres and other more isolated outrages.
Deploy bombs that burst into pictures of America and Japan's finest strippers.
Posts
- John Stuart Mill
Most likely dear leader's head would come back with utmost apologies from the elites as they send Clinton home.
China wouldn't be able to fuck around with that, you don't kidnap ambassadors or negotiators.
If they executed the negotiator, expect full regime change.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22385151
You'll need this guy:
What a fucking moron.
eh.
I recently heard the story of a nun who broke into a nuclear-waste dump and was fully prepared to be shot by guards. She wanted to get rid of nuclear weapons and the knowledge behind them or something? She and her comrades actually surrendered to a guard because apparently we're incompetent at securing such facilities. So the Faithful doing the things they Believe in isn't necessarily, moronic. If this actually is the case it's not like he's a hiker who got "lost".
I'm also going to say that your nun is also a moron, at least given what you are saying. You don't get rid of nuclear weapons and the knowledge behind them or something by doing what she did.
People don't get a pass on being a moron because they Feel Strongly about something.
And more importantly, why would you do that? The knowledge can still be rediscovered, especially now that we know it's possible and that we're 60 years more technologically advanced than we were when we first discovered it. So I'll give you three guesses as to what will happen within a week after you've "gotten rid" of the knowledge to build nuclear weapons...
He got what he asked for. It sucks for him, but I'm inclined to say we should put his release down at the bottom of our list of demands. He can be a token traded back to us as 'goodwill', or used to open discussion if we wish...but I really don't think any effort should be spent securing his release. Basically, sending a Clinton over there is just encouraging this kind of behavior in the future.
This isn't like Lee and Ling where there is a major question if they ever entered NK in the first place. This is some guy who willingly went into their country because of his beliefs.
With the nun / other people who broke into Oak Ridge...it's noble, but I'm not sure what they realistically hoped to accomplish. Nukes aren't going away, regardless of how many nuns spray-paint processing facilities and splash blood on them. If they just wanted to be arrested and charged with illegal entry, well...they are going to get what they wanted.
If you are going to protest with civil disobedience, accepting responsibility and the charges that go with it are part of the protest.
So where does that put Sophie scholl?
I don't know, I certainly understand the argument, and it makes sense, but a big part of me will always be a prepubescent boy who's thinking "No! I want my stuff People Back!
He might be an idiot, but he's our idiot!"
But yeah, that's not really a logical argument.
I agree with you and on one hand feel the same way.
On the other, I kind of put it on a par with the people who want to fly a balloon around the world and keep needing to be rescued. We should make a reasonable effort to care for those people and address their needs, but not at the expense of other priorities / interests / concerns.
With someone who willingly goes into North Korea, we should make an effort to request their release, along with the normal condemnations and 'demands' for fair treatment during their imprisonment. If an opportunity comes up to ensure his release (or rescue) we should take it. But in no way should we jeopardize long-term interests or weaken our position to do so.
Kind of like those bleeding heart Japanese students who traveled to Iraq right around when America invaded to lend humanitarian aid and protest but then those students were kidnapped by Iraqis and held at gunpoint for ransom. The Japanese government eventually paid the ransom after a few months.
Additionally, I really doubt he wanted to be sentenced to 15 years hard labor in NK, so stop saying that.
The experts say we shouldn't celebrate just yet but I think this round of saber rattling is winding down.
1)He's an American.
2)He entered NK intentionally and of his own free will
3)He was not on some sort of US sanctioned mission, be it ambassador/negotiator/good will tour BS.
That's really all you need to know about his activities to label him an idiot.
1) He owns a tour company and was there with 5 other people doing his job as a tour guide.
2) He had been there before with no incident.
3) This happened in November prior to the ramp up of hostility.
Citation
Far from idiotic activities. I think people are just quick to jump on his Christianity label (lol idiot religious nut lol) and jump to the conclusion he's a missionary with a martyr complex.
edit: 4) He also runs a Bakery and supports an orphanage in Rason, where he was visiting.
5) Rason is a special economic zone made to encourage tourism and attracts non-citizens.
How is that not an idiotic activity? It's like holding a purity ball on the slopes of Mauna Loa; everyone knows how the story is going to end.
- John Stuart Mill
Most of the people discussing this dude in the thread have made a point of saying he's Christian. Not even sure why that matters really.
In response to the bolded, Rason, the area he was in, is specifically made for tourism. Like it actively encourages spending foreign currency and attracting visitors. As far as the attitude towards Americans, it wasn't as bad back in November. And the last point is true, but considering he is in Rason consistently with his tourism groups and his connection to multiple businesses in the area, its not as idiotic.
So, what's the big tourism draw there? I mean it's obviously not the shopping or the food. Do they let you watch a starving child, watching you blow twice their parents' annual income on a spin of the roulette wheel?
As for their attitude towards Americans, I think we have different definitions of bad relations. Just as a personal rule of thumb, if, in the past year, a nation has stated their preparedness and willingness to fight a nuclear war against my country, I'm not going there; it's pretty clear we are not friends.
- John Stuart Mill
Those areas will be nice, unlike the 98% of the country that you aren't allowed to go to, because it's a hellhole of human rights violations.
I'd sure as fuck never go there on purpose, but I'm sure some people might.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I know a couple of people who've been, but I think that was more official, under a diplomatic visit.
Probably because most of the articles about him only describe him in three terms: American, tour operator, and Christian. If Christian is one of the first words anyone uses to describe you, odds are it means you're more-than-averagely religious. I mean, I'm an atheist, but I'd never expect anyone to describe me as "Scooter, the Atheist Engineer".
I'd be inclined to agree. My university (in the US) had a program where they regularly sent students visiting South Korea to visit Kaesong for an afternoon, rub elbows with some North Korean factory managers, etc. I wonder if the program is still going on, but they tried to do it every year, and were successful on occasion.
On the perception of Americans in North Korea proper...amid everything else (a tyrannical monarchist government, the famine, etc.) the devastation of the Korean War where the US Air Force destroyed pretty much every single urban center in the country with an extensive bombing campaign has probably left a negative impression. Add to the fact that government propaganda has played that up to a huge degree--even without that angle, it's still hardly a positive experience. I know my grandparents thought Americans were fine, but if you mentioned the bombing campaign that destroyed 90% of the country in the '40s, they'd admit they didn't really care for the American government or military. And that's with decades of positive propaganda reinforcement.
Whatever the case, I imagine propaganda has taken its effect anyway. We're talking about an incredible degree of "brainwashing".
You ride Splash Mountain, you may get wet. You visit a despotic, dystopian nightmare that routinely denounces your country, you may get tossed in the dungeon by their insane, giggling god-emperor. Either way, your choice, your fault. Terrible, yes, but still your damn fault.
- John Stuart Mill
Interesting. From what I've read in the past, and have been recently hearing from "experts" (given where we are now, I wonder just how "expert" they are) it is used--there isn't really a cognitive dissonance here (or if there is, it's not one that can't be overcome). I mean, clearly, the United States exists. In fact, it's a dangerous military power that actively threatens their government in the Korean Peninsula. So clearly, someone failed. But through self-reliance, they continue to exist. Americans are a threat, and they have done very negative things (from the perspective of the North) in the past. Hence while they'll do it again.
Plus, having your entire country razed to the ground during war within a human lifespan is pretty memorable. I don't think you could square "Oh, yeah, the Americans aren't a threat at all" with the thousands of kilometers of underground tunnels and complexes that North Koreans have become used to as a part of daily life, preparing for the final showdown. It'd be like refusing to acknowledge the threat posed by the modern, well-trained, ideologically-conditioned and well-equipped South Korean military, because if you did, clearly you'd have to acknowledge the failure to conquer the South during the war.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/LD10Dg02.html
He calls him, Kim. They must be bros.
- John Stuart Mill
Deploy bombs that burst into pictures of America and Japan's finest strippers.
You've never heard that phrase?
Couldn't tell you where I heard it first, but it's been out there for some time now.
The 90s?
That's some heavy shit to deny a true bro
It is Dennis Rodman after all.
Wait, would Denis Rodman with nukes be better or worse? :?