And now you have two things to find instead of just one, making the wait time longer. "Oh shit, which credit card did I use for this? man I don't remember, let me try all three."
I totally agree that lots of these systems exist, and many of them would be very effective at stopping counterfeiting and scalping. I would think it's a reasonable assumption that the folks running PAX also know that some of these systems exist. The fact that they are not using them would suggest there's a reason that does not include ignorance.
Also I think your definition of what drastically does or does not increase the burden on PAX or the attendees is part of the disconnect. I think that there are a whole lot of people that would view having to wait in a line to pick up their badges to be a drastic increase to their burdens via getting a badge in the mail. Also, having to wring out an unknown system on tens of thousands of people waiting to get into a convention is a fairly drastic change as well. The exact cost:benefit ratio is not objectively obtained without knowing the effects on attendees, and the effects on PAX and PAX staff. If counterfeiting and scalping are currently thought of as "very small issues" in that context, it makes little sense to make such drastic changes to the system as it stands.
Little things like adding simple security features to the badges, and potentially making the designs much more different year to year are more likely to have a better cost:benefit ratio for everyone involved.
We also seem to be forgetting that scalping is NOT illegal in Washington. It is unfortunate, and I believe that PAX discourages it as much as is reasonable, but it is not illegal. Counterfeiting = illegal. Scalping != illegal. This is why men can stand outside the event with stacks of badges and sell them, so long as they aren't fake. It's also why PAX profides counterfeit checking services outside the event to check those badges. PAX can discourage the practice of scalping, but there is legally nothing wrong with it.
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PedroAsaniBrotherhood of the Squirrel[Prime]Registered Userregular
We also seem to be forgetting that scalping is NOT illegal in Washington. It is unfortunate, and I believe that PAX discourages it as much as is reasonable, but it is not illegal. Counterfeiting = illegal. Scalping != illegal. This is why men can stand outside the event with stacks of badges and sell them, so long as they aren't fake. It's also why PAX profides counterfeit checking services outside the event to check those badges. PAX can discourage the practice of scalping, but there is legally nothing wrong with it.
Scalping might be legal in WA, but it is illegal in plenty of places due to the problems it creates. I'm sure promoters love it, because it makes it a lot easier to proclaim "Shows Sold Out" and they can use it as a guide for how much they can increase ticket prices next time. But it hurts attendees by denying them the chance to buy tickets.
For something like PAX, it is worse than a usual concert or show. Scalpers who stand outside are only going to sell to people who show up wanting a ticket, so for someone outside Seattle, they need to travel to PAX in the hope of getting a scalped ticket at whatever marked-up price. That means time off work, hotel, travel, all for the chance to get a ticket at an extortionate price. The result is most people won't do that. PAX loses out on attendees, and potential attendees lose out on PAX.
The Louis CK model which someone mentioned earlier took Scalping from 25% of tickets sold to less than 1%. And again, whilst the Scalpers claimed what they did wasn't illegal, the reply was "neither is this. We are just enforcing the conditions of the sale to keep prices down."
Scalpers were the reason that so many tickets were put on re-sale. The re-sale happened without warning at a time when many people couldn't get online. It's one of the big frustration points of this, and I think that most Scalpers would be deterred by having to pick up tickets in person. They do this for a profit, so take that profit away and it stops. Same with counterfeiting. Take away the ability to make an easy profit.
And now you have two things to find instead of just one, making the wait time longer. "Oh shit, which credit card did I use for this? man I don't remember, let me try all three."
I totally agree that lots of these systems exist, and many of them would be very effective at stopping counterfeiting and scalping. I would think it's a reasonable assumption that the folks running PAX also know that some of these systems exist. The fact that they are not using them would suggest there's a reason that does not include ignorance.
Also I think your definition of what drastically does or does not increase the burden on PAX or the attendees is part of the disconnect. I think that there are a whole lot of people that would view having to wait in a line to pick up their badges to be a drastic increase to their burdens via getting a badge in the mail. Also, having to wring out an unknown system on tens of thousands of people waiting to get into a convention is a fairly drastic change as well. The exact cost:benefit ratio is not objectively obtained without knowing the effects on attendees, and the effects on PAX and PAX staff. If counterfeiting and scalping are currently thought of as "very small issues" in that context, it makes little sense to make such drastic changes to the system as it stands.
Little things like adding simple security features to the badges, and potentially making the designs much more different year to year are more likely to have a better cost:benefit ratio for everyone involved.
What adds to the burden would need to be tested, and improved upon. But right now, the current system of PAX has people queuing outside the doors many hours in advance anyway. It's why one of the big tips for PAX is to take portable games you can play in the queue, and make PAX friends with people in the queue next to you. That's why the objection to queuing time is baffling to me. The queue is already there!
As for the burden on staff, it will be more work to do on the day. (The more automated, the less work. Ideally, it would just be some babysitting of machines and handholding for the occasional person too drunk and/or hungover from the party last night.) But less work ahead of time and no postage costs.
Different designs should be in place already. Reusing previous ones is a big hole, as is using the designs posted on the website. Plus, the Badge would have a unique piece of Gabe-art, which is more reason to look after it.
The security features to thwart counterfeiting only have value if you are looking for them. If you add RFID, you need to have scanners. If you add UV ink, you need people checking with UV lights. Fine detail, raised printing, intaglio printing, holograms, metallic ink, multiple colours, all require close inspection. The Orion (EURion) marks stop most printers duplicating things they are printed on, but getting them there in the first place is costly.
The burden of Badge checking is going to be needed, regardless of the method of issuing Badges. The difference is in how many fakes are in circulation. The more fakes, the more you have the burden of dealing with a disappointed attendee. Reducing this by implementing a system that makes counterfeiting unprofitable makes sense, and the easiest way to make it unprofitable is to limit the time they have to produce fakes.
The entrance queue is entirely optional, and a whole lot of people choose to not wait in it. A badge queue would not be optional.
Also you're assuming that the number of fakes is still high. It could be, I guess, but I don't think it is. We don't have any data to back that up one way or another, but I haven't heard of anything quite like Prime 2011 since Prime 2011. Honestly I was surprised this thread was even created, given how little counterfeiting has been mentioned since then.
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BekerChild's Play Program DirectorSeattleRegistered User, Penny Arcade Staffregular
And the problem of counterfeiters isn't just a "handful" of badges. I've seen numbers saying 3000-5000 at PAX 2011, and whilst PA have "taken steps" (whatever they may be) to combat the problem, it still exists in a number measured in the thousands. That's enough to violate the fire code and get PAX closed to legitimate Badge holders until some people leave. That's enough to cause egress problems in the event of an actual fire.
Its true that 2011 was the year that made them take steps. Having worked at Info Booth (where counterfit badges are turned in) the last several years, I can tell you that year we saw hundreds or maybe thousands, I personally stopped counting. Last year, maybe we saw 2. I agree its entierly possible that we missed some counterfits. I don't beleive we missed "thousands". If you have more information it would be great if you emailed PA or drop by Info Booth at PAX and let us know. At this point, until we identify more counterfits, I'm not sure more effort is needed.
The entrance queue is entirely optional, and a whole lot of people choose to not wait in it. A badge queue would not be optional.
Lets assume a line of 10000 people trying to collect tickets. Even if they can process at a rate of 1 per minute. That is 7 full days of staff to process. Split that line up into 20 and you are still talking about 8 hours per line. Besides being a terrible hassle for everyone, those hours spent waiting are not "free". If you take the standard economists measure of free time being worth 1/3 paid wage time and assume Washington minimum wage ($9.19/hr), that means each person is paying an extra $12. Or $120,000 is being wasted making them stand in line.
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peetsnackTeam Green Poké Assist, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Head Girl House HufflepuffThe Cleave LandsRegistered Userregular
The Louis CK model which someone mentioned earlier took Scalping from 25% of tickets sold to less than 1%. *snip*
Scalping of pax badges are already at less than half a percent and, as @Beker noted, aside from a single pax counterfeiting has never been a significant issue. How few scalped/counterfeited badges is in your opinion an acceptable level?
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I totally agree that lots of these systems exist, and many of them would be very effective at stopping counterfeiting and scalping. I would think it's a reasonable assumption that the folks running PAX also know that some of these systems exist. The fact that they are not using them would suggest there's a reason that does not include ignorance.
Also I think your definition of what drastically does or does not increase the burden on PAX or the attendees is part of the disconnect. I think that there are a whole lot of people that would view having to wait in a line to pick up their badges to be a drastic increase to their burdens via getting a badge in the mail. Also, having to wring out an unknown system on tens of thousands of people waiting to get into a convention is a fairly drastic change as well. The exact cost:benefit ratio is not objectively obtained without knowing the effects on attendees, and the effects on PAX and PAX staff. If counterfeiting and scalping are currently thought of as "very small issues" in that context, it makes little sense to make such drastic changes to the system as it stands.
Little things like adding simple security features to the badges, and potentially making the designs much more different year to year are more likely to have a better cost:benefit ratio for everyone involved.
Scalping might be legal in WA, but it is illegal in plenty of places due to the problems it creates. I'm sure promoters love it, because it makes it a lot easier to proclaim "Shows Sold Out" and they can use it as a guide for how much they can increase ticket prices next time. But it hurts attendees by denying them the chance to buy tickets.
For something like PAX, it is worse than a usual concert or show. Scalpers who stand outside are only going to sell to people who show up wanting a ticket, so for someone outside Seattle, they need to travel to PAX in the hope of getting a scalped ticket at whatever marked-up price. That means time off work, hotel, travel, all for the chance to get a ticket at an extortionate price. The result is most people won't do that. PAX loses out on attendees, and potential attendees lose out on PAX.
The Louis CK model which someone mentioned earlier took Scalping from 25% of tickets sold to less than 1%. And again, whilst the Scalpers claimed what they did wasn't illegal, the reply was "neither is this. We are just enforcing the conditions of the sale to keep prices down."
Scalpers were the reason that so many tickets were put on re-sale. The re-sale happened without warning at a time when many people couldn't get online. It's one of the big frustration points of this, and I think that most Scalpers would be deterred by having to pick up tickets in person. They do this for a profit, so take that profit away and it stops. Same with counterfeiting. Take away the ability to make an easy profit.
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What adds to the burden would need to be tested, and improved upon. But right now, the current system of PAX has people queuing outside the doors many hours in advance anyway. It's why one of the big tips for PAX is to take portable games you can play in the queue, and make PAX friends with people in the queue next to you. That's why the objection to queuing time is baffling to me. The queue is already there!
As for the burden on staff, it will be more work to do on the day. (The more automated, the less work. Ideally, it would just be some babysitting of machines and handholding for the occasional person too drunk and/or hungover from the party last night.) But less work ahead of time and no postage costs.
Different designs should be in place already. Reusing previous ones is a big hole, as is using the designs posted on the website. Plus, the Badge would have a unique piece of Gabe-art, which is more reason to look after it.
The security features to thwart counterfeiting only have value if you are looking for them. If you add RFID, you need to have scanners. If you add UV ink, you need people checking with UV lights. Fine detail, raised printing, intaglio printing, holograms, metallic ink, multiple colours, all require close inspection. The Orion (EURion) marks stop most printers duplicating things they are printed on, but getting them there in the first place is costly.
The burden of Badge checking is going to be needed, regardless of the method of issuing Badges. The difference is in how many fakes are in circulation. The more fakes, the more you have the burden of dealing with a disappointed attendee. Reducing this by implementing a system that makes counterfeiting unprofitable makes sense, and the easiest way to make it unprofitable is to limit the time they have to produce fakes.
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Also you're assuming that the number of fakes is still high. It could be, I guess, but I don't think it is. We don't have any data to back that up one way or another, but I haven't heard of anything quite like Prime 2011 since Prime 2011. Honestly I was surprised this thread was even created, given how little counterfeiting has been mentioned since then.
Its true that 2011 was the year that made them take steps. Having worked at Info Booth (where counterfit badges are turned in) the last several years, I can tell you that year we saw hundreds or maybe thousands, I personally stopped counting. Last year, maybe we saw 2. I agree its entierly possible that we missed some counterfits. I don't beleive we missed "thousands". If you have more information it would be great if you emailed PA or drop by Info Booth at PAX and let us know. At this point, until we identify more counterfits, I'm not sure more effort is needed.
Lets assume a line of 10000 people trying to collect tickets. Even if they can process at a rate of 1 per minute. That is 7 full days of staff to process. Split that line up into 20 and you are still talking about 8 hours per line. Besides being a terrible hassle for everyone, those hours spent waiting are not "free". If you take the standard economists measure of free time being worth 1/3 paid wage time and assume Washington minimum wage ($9.19/hr), that means each person is paying an extra $12. Or $120,000 is being wasted making them stand in line.
Scalping of pax badges are already at less than half a percent and, as @Beker noted, aside from a single pax counterfeiting has never been a significant issue. How few scalped/counterfeited badges is in your opinion an acceptable level?
Geth, close this thread.