Robertson was not censored. That's just fact. He was punished, sure, but there's nothing stopping him from going on a 50 state tour about how homosexuality is evil.
And I don't really find anything admirable about what A&E did. From my POV, it was a purely economic decision. They happily exploited the Robertson family's redneckery until some of the less fun aspects of the people who live/think that way came out. I also think A&E is smart enough to have predicted this kind of thing. IMO, it was only a matter of time before one of them said or did something controversial that was aimed at one kind of minority or another.
I do think that the criticism he's received is warranted. Conflating homosexuality with bestiality, while also clinging to the cliche of promiscuity, is despicable. Full stop.
But I take issue with the idea that this guy can some how stop society from progressing. That confers a level of power and influence he simply hasn't reached, and likely never will. I really don't think that Duck Dynasty is the cultural force the media is trying to make it be. There's a significant portion of people who watch it to laugh at the rednecks, much like the Osbournes, and the Kardashians, and all the others who have come before and those that are waiting in the wings. They don't care about the Robertsons as people, but as meat puppets to guffaw at. And those that do hold similar views are quickly falling by the wayside. The demographics show it. 17 states and counting show it. The quick public outcry whenever any jackass acts like a jackass shows it.
People like Phil Robertson are no longer stopping progress. They're being bowled over by it. There's a long road to go, sure, but we really shouldn't fear about the backwards opinions of some bearded redneck. They're literally becoming inconsequential by the moment.
Yes but the fact that A&E immediately said "Wo, we ain't touching that" and dropped his ass is exactly the sign of and the cause of that progress.
I personally don't think any of this shit is real.
The ENTIRE thing is more publicity for A&E and Duck Dynasty. I don't think the stories will have a negative impact on viewership, and instead drum up an IMMENSE amount of coverage for the channel and the show. I think that every single repetition of this, down to this thread, contributes to their marketing ploy.
If you look back, there's already been another instance of the show supposedly being "too religious" for A&E, which drummed up a massive conservative backlash and lots of show discussion. Something to do with allegedly asking them not to pray in the show.
Now this is going on, and I strongly suspect A&E is eager to keep this in the news, because it massively spikes awareness of their programs.
It's weird guerrilla-marketing using media scandals.
Eh his comments are vile, and already more vileness has been found. If this keeps going it might take Duck Dynasty off A&E and put it on Fox, which is not a benefit for A&E. The robertsons are already whining about their first amendment and how they can't keep going without their bigot patriarch, this might be a contract breaker on their part.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
No, this is not censorship. Freedom of speech neither guarantees you protection from the repercussions of your speech, nor does it guarantee you a platform.
We've been seeing a sort of "free speech maximalism" as of late that I think is ultimately corrosive to free speech.
This is still censorship. A private company can censor someone, they just can't violate your First Amendment rights.
No, it's not, because to say that it's censorship is to claim that he somehow had a right to the company's platform.
"Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are "offensive," happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. " https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/what-censorship
I don't agree with that definition. In fact, it's a good example of what I mean by free speech maximalism.
Well, I'm sorry but...you're wrong here. It's not an opinion. Private companies can do censorship. The difference is when they censor things, they're not violating your rights by doing it. Like the instance above with Comedy Central censoring Mohammed in the South Park episode. That is some straight up censorship.
Or, it could be that Viacom, not wanting to anger a demographic and hurt ratings, decided that it didn't want to be party to Parker and Stone's particular speech. Which they have every right to do.
This is why I don't agree with that definition, and find it dangerous.
Seems like some of you are under the impression that the demographic for Duck Dynasty is red necks, which is hilariously wrong.
Rednecks are a demographic for Duck Dynasty.
The other target demographic are (very likely white) people who like to point and laugh at rednecks. It's almost impossible to believe that anyone who's watching that show doesn't fall into one of those two categories.
This isn't censorship or content selection. He didn't say this on the show, its not an act of censoring. Its firing him because he said offensive stuff elsewhere.
Which is more problematic to me in a worker protection kind of way. He shouldn't get fired for being at a gay pride parade, whether he was there to march in it or there to protest it. Obviously the nature of being an on air personality and all that are a bit different from being a factory worker.
The thing is, his job for A&E is essentially PR, and an interview with GQ is another form of PR. So, while the interview may have been "on his own time," its ultimate purpose was to keep/generate momentum for the show.
I could see your point if these comments were captured by someone with a cellphone while he was talking to someone semi-privately at a bar or something, but he was essentially making bigoted comments while on the clock.
I agree but the mind set that its generally okay ala:
If I went on facebook and said the stuff he said and my boss caught wind I'd be fired too
it's not censorship when your employer distances themselves from you after you prove to not only have shitty views, but you make them public
Is really much worse than the ramblings of some old redneck, especially as the fight is being won and the reaper is working for the good guys. Cause what constitutes 'shitty views' is all in the eye of the boss.
No, this is not censorship. Freedom of speech neither guarantees you protection from the repercussions of your speech, nor does it guarantee you a platform.
We've been seeing a sort of "free speech maximalism" as of late that I think is ultimately corrosive to free speech.
This is still censorship. A private company can censor someone, they just can't violate your First Amendment rights.
No, it's not, because to say that it's censorship is to claim that he somehow had a right to the company's platform.
"Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are "offensive," happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. " https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/what-censorship
I don't agree with that definition. In fact, it's a good example of what I mean by free speech maximalism.
No, it's a good example of understanding that there are more degrees of censorship or "censorship" then first-amendment-focused-americans seem capable of processing.
Basically, if you insist on not using the word that way, that the word "censorship" only applies to violations of first amendment rights, then just pick another fucking word for the concept, because the concept there is still an important one and people are still gonna talk about it.
Today we learn (again) that freedom of speech =/= freedom from the consequences of speech. More breaking news at 11.
+1
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
Yes guys thank you for providing such a nice illustration of exactly the kind of stupid definition-argument that I mentioned before. Your example is very helpful. Literally posting the dictionary definition of the word was a nice touch.
Now let's stop fucking talking about the definition.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Today we learn (again) that freedom of speech =/= freedom from the consequences of speech. More breaking news at 11.
The thing I have an issue with is that people act like being a star on a reality tv show is some kind of normal thing we all have access to. If anything the government forcing A&E to keep the Bigot on the air would be a serious violation of something.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
No, this is not censorship. Freedom of speech neither guarantees you protection from the repercussions of your speech, nor does it guarantee you a platform.
We've been seeing a sort of "free speech maximalism" as of late that I think is ultimately corrosive to free speech.
This is still censorship. A private company can censor someone, they just can't violate your First Amendment rights.
No, it's not, because to say that it's censorship is to claim that he somehow had a right to the company's platform.
"Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are "offensive," happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. " https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/what-censorship
I don't agree with that definition. In fact, it's a good example of what I mean by free speech maximalism.
No, it's a good example of understanding that there are more degrees of censorship or "censorship" then first-amendment-focused-americans seem capable of processing.
Basically, if you insist on not using the word that way, that the word "censorship" only applies to violations of first amendment rights, then just pick another fucking word for the concept, because the concept there is still an important one and people are still gonna talk about it.
I don't use it that way because it becomes a form of policing. It comes back to one of the core points that has been made over this thread - freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the repercussions of that speech. And one of those repercussions is that people may elect not to stand with you. To call that choice "censorship" is to diminish and delegitamize that choice.
I do have to say I'm sad that Robertson being a horrible racist isn't what got him suspended. I mean hateful rhetoric towards gay people is bad too, but he supported fucking jim crow in 20 fucking 13, jesus shouldn't that I dunno warrant an eye brow raise?
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Today we learn (again) that freedom of speech =/= freedom from the consequences of speech. More breaking news at 11.
The thing I have an issue with is that people act like being a star on a reality tv show is some kind of normal thing we all have access to. If anything the government forcing A&E to keep the Bigot on the air would be a serious violation of something.
It would be a violation of A&E's freedom of speech.
If I went on facebook and said the stuff he said and my boss caught wind I'd be fired too
it's not censorship when your employer distances themselves from you after you prove to not only have shitty views, but you make them public
Is really much worse than the ramblings of some old redneck, especially as the fight is being won and the reaper is working for the good guys. Cause what constitutes 'shitty views' is all in the eye of the boss.
I largely agree, except in cases where your job is to be part of the public-facing arm of the company you work for.
My issue with the "Don't worry these people are dying off" line of thought is, they are not dying off. New ones are being born into hate and see what Robertson said as completely right, if we do not show that his hateful comments are just that, other morons might think they are perfectly fine to have.
We should always rub hateful bigots comments in their face like a dog that shit on the carpet, they must be made to understand what they said was bad and they should feel bad. I tire of the "He just doesn't know any better" defense, bullshit human beings can learn their dumb fuck views are abhorent and they should not have them anymore.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Probably not the popular opinion here, but I find the term "white trash" to be racist and am disappointed by its cavalier usage in this forum at times.
Probably not the popular opinion here, but I find the term "white trash" to be racist and am disappointed by its cavalier usage in this forum at times.
I agree in principle that it's not something that should be used in a serious argument or statement, but it really was our turn a long time ago. It's a little bit like punching a dude for hours and then when he finally gets up and takes a swing at you, you cry foul.
Maybe you're right, and hitting is never okay, but you kinda deserve it.
Probably not the popular opinion here, but I find the term "white trash" to be racist and am disappointed by its cavalier usage in this forum at times.
I agree in principle that it's not something that should be used in a serious argument or statement, but it really was our turn a long time ago. It's a little bit like punching a dude for hours and then when he finally gets up and takes a swing at you, you cry foul.
Maybe you're right, and hitting is never okay, but you kinda deserve it.
Possibly one of the goosiest possible responses. Racism isn't good. Ever. Stop it.
Okay, well, we don't have a long and storied history of bringing the white race down with "white trash". I'm so morose now, knowing that that insult exists, bringing me back to my days... wait, no, it doesn't offend me at all. Have you considered the possibility that you might be a little too sensitive?
On the other hand, there are statements like Mr. Robertson has made which actually are incredibly offensive to a whole lot of people, who have a long and storied history of discrimination and circumstances which prevent them from getting a leg up ever.
The two kinds of "racism" are not equivalent. Robertson's racism is not equal to calling somebody white trash.
My issue with the "Don't worry these people are dying off" line of thought is, they are not dying off. New ones are being born into hate and see what Robertson said as completely right, if we do not show that his hateful comments are just that, other morons might think they are perfectly fine to have.
We should always rub hateful bigots comments in their face like a dog that shit on the carpet, they must be made to understand what they said was bad and they should feel bad. I tire of the "He just doesn't know any better" defense, bullshit human beings can learn their dumb fuck views are abhorent and they should not have them anymore.
Yeah, it can become hard to stick by the "dying off" line when A&E's most popular show is about a bunch of Louisiana rednecks who were always almost certainly ridiculous bigots. I mean, this whole thing is "conservative southern dude who wears nothing but camouflage is racist and homophobic, film at eleven!" You want to tell me that, even aside from previously published comments, the A&E crew and execs had never heard anything offensive out of these chucklefucks? Of course not. But they get eyeballs, so they're on. And the only concern about his comments is that it might lose them eyeballs, not any sort of moral superiority. The moment that racism and homophobia can directly boost ratings for the network overall, they'll be airing the "Fuck Them Gays and Negroes Power Hour."
If they really gave a shit, they'd pull the current season, shitcan the whole show. But then they couldn't sell the swag at Wal-Mart.
Or, basically...
And I don't really find anything admirable about what A&E did. From my POV, it was a purely economic decision. They happily exploited the Robertson family's redneckery until some of the less fun aspects of the people who live/think that way came out. I also think A&E is smart enough to have predicted this kind of thing. IMO, it was only a matter of time before one of them said or did something controversial that was aimed at one kind of minority or another.
Probably not the popular opinion here, but I find the term "white trash" to be racist and am disappointed by its cavalier usage in this forum at times.
Well the duck dynasty asshat self-describes as white trash, I wonder how many of his fans do as well.
ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
To be fair, 95% of the people I hear using the term "white trash" are white.
Honestly, I find the term far more classist than racist.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Besides, I've already said that I agree with you in principle, just that the outrage at discrimination towards white people is laughable at best.
So go tell your friends that you defended the use of what you agree in principle to be a racist term.
And I'm not offended by it as a white person, I'm offended as a person. Also if you take two seconds to think about it you'll see that it's not just offensive to whites, but also to non-whites.
And to the earlier post asking how this related to the Duck Dynasty idiots, I was calling out the use in this specific thread.
Probably not the popular opinion here, but I find the term "white trash" to be racist and am disappointed by its cavalier usage in this forum at times.
Well the duck dynasty asshat self-describes as white trash, I wonder how many of his fans do as well.
Replace "duck dynasty asshat" with rapper. Replace "white trash"...
It's dehumanizing on at least a partial basis of race. Defend it all you wish.
Back on topic anyways, I can't even look at Facebook right now.
Someone is quoting fucking Leviticus right now. I want to reach through the screen and grab them their ears and remind them that same book could be used to justify all manner of horrible things being done to them. Just stop it.
Besides, I've already said that I agree with you in principle, just that the outrage at discrimination towards white people is laughable at best.
So go tell your friends that you defended the use of what you agree in principle to be a racist term.
And I'm not offended by it as a white person, I'm offended as a person. Also if you take two seconds to think about it you'll see that it's not just offensive to whites, but also to non-whites.
And to the earlier post asking how this related to the Duck Dynasty idiots, I was calling out the use in this specific thread.
Okay, well, I'm sorry I don't agree with you more? Or whatever? Feel free to get offended, I guess.
But zagdrob is right and this tangent is a little dumb.
Probably not the popular opinion here, but I find the term "white trash" to be racist and am disappointed by its cavalier usage in this forum at times.
Well the duck dynasty asshat self-describes as white trash, I wonder how many of his fans do as well.
"White trash" is for a subset of poor, conservative white folks what "queer" is for a lot of gays.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Guy is making millions on his reality show. He didn't want his speech to have repercussions he didn't have to sign a contract with a image clause(which I guarantee his contract has they all do)
Probably not the popular opinion here, but I find the term "white trash" to be racist and am disappointed by its cavalier usage in this forum at times.
Well the duck dynasty asshat self-describes as white trash, I wonder how many of his fans do as well.
Replace "duck dynasty asshat" with rapper. Replace "white trash"...
It's dehumanizing on at least a partial basis of race. Defend it all you wish.
Back on topic anyways, I can't even look at Facebook right now.
Someone is quoting fucking Leviticus right now. I want to reach through the screen and grab them their ears and remind them that same book could be used to justify all manner of horrible things being done to them. Just stop it.
When a guy quotes that to me I ask him if he sleeps in the toolshed when his wife is on her period
Except the Duck Dynasty people are anything but poor.
Fair point, but the vast majority of folks who self-identify as such are going to be.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
FWIW, I've always considered income / wealth to be only loosely correlated to someone being 'white trash'.
There are plenty of people I would readily classify as 'white trash' who were raised upper-middle class and have top quintile incomes.
Maybe that's just where I live though. Basically, a person can easily be poor without being white trash, and the other way around.
But either way...I tire of concern trolls who just want us to think of the reverse-racism against the poor oppressed white people. It's like the 'War on Christmas' bullshit - oh, yeah, Christians in the United States are such an oppressed group.
Posts
Yes but the fact that A&E immediately said "Wo, we ain't touching that" and dropped his ass is exactly the sign of and the cause of that progress.
Eh his comments are vile, and already more vileness has been found. If this keeps going it might take Duck Dynasty off A&E and put it on Fox, which is not a benefit for A&E. The robertsons are already whining about their first amendment and how they can't keep going without their bigot patriarch, this might be a contract breaker on their part.
pleasepaypreacher.net
That is the very definition of censoring.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/censoring?s=t
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
The other target demographic are (very likely white) people who like to point and laugh at rednecks. It's almost impossible to believe that anyone who's watching that show doesn't fall into one of those two categories.
I agree but the mind set that its generally okay ala:
Is really much worse than the ramblings of some old redneck, especially as the fight is being won and the reaper is working for the good guys. Cause what constitutes 'shitty views' is all in the eye of the boss.
No, it's a good example of understanding that there are more degrees of censorship or "censorship" then first-amendment-focused-americans seem capable of processing.
Basically, if you insist on not using the word that way, that the word "censorship" only applies to violations of first amendment rights, then just pick another fucking word for the concept, because the concept there is still an important one and people are still gonna talk about it.
Now let's stop fucking talking about the definition.
The thing I have an issue with is that people act like being a star on a reality tv show is some kind of normal thing we all have access to. If anything the government forcing A&E to keep the Bigot on the air would be a serious violation of something.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I don't use it that way because it becomes a form of policing. It comes back to one of the core points that has been made over this thread - freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the repercussions of that speech. And one of those repercussions is that people may elect not to stand with you. To call that choice "censorship" is to diminish and delegitamize that choice.
pleasepaypreacher.net
It would be a violation of A&E's freedom of speech.
I largely agree, except in cases where your job is to be part of the public-facing arm of the company you work for.
We should always rub hateful bigots comments in their face like a dog that shit on the carpet, they must be made to understand what they said was bad and they should feel bad. I tire of the "He just doesn't know any better" defense, bullshit human beings can learn their dumb fuck views are abhorent and they should not have them anymore.
pleasepaypreacher.net
pleasepaypreacher.net
I agree in principle that it's not something that should be used in a serious argument or statement, but it really was our turn a long time ago. It's a little bit like punching a dude for hours and then when he finally gets up and takes a swing at you, you cry foul.
Maybe you're right, and hitting is never okay, but you kinda deserve it.
Possibly one of the goosiest possible responses. Racism isn't good. Ever. Stop it.
On the other hand, there are statements like Mr. Robertson has made which actually are incredibly offensive to a whole lot of people, who have a long and storied history of discrimination and circumstances which prevent them from getting a leg up ever.
The two kinds of "racism" are not equivalent. Robertson's racism is not equal to calling somebody white trash.
This derailment is stupid and at best fit for 'A God Damned Separate Thread' of its own.
Yeah, it can become hard to stick by the "dying off" line when A&E's most popular show is about a bunch of Louisiana rednecks who were always almost certainly ridiculous bigots. I mean, this whole thing is "conservative southern dude who wears nothing but camouflage is racist and homophobic, film at eleven!" You want to tell me that, even aside from previously published comments, the A&E crew and execs had never heard anything offensive out of these chucklefucks? Of course not. But they get eyeballs, so they're on. And the only concern about his comments is that it might lose them eyeballs, not any sort of moral superiority. The moment that racism and homophobia can directly boost ratings for the network overall, they'll be airing the "Fuck Them Gays and Negroes Power Hour."
If they really gave a shit, they'd pull the current season, shitcan the whole show. But then they couldn't sell the swag at Wal-Mart.
Or, basically...
Well the duck dynasty asshat self-describes as white trash, I wonder how many of his fans do as well.
Honestly, I find the term far more classist than racist.
It's part of the reason I loathe going to holidays at my in-laws and setting down for meals full of "white trash" this and that.
Some of us actually have family living in trailer houses, you know?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
So go tell your friends that you defended the use of what you agree in principle to be a racist term.
And I'm not offended by it as a white person, I'm offended as a person. Also if you take two seconds to think about it you'll see that it's not just offensive to whites, but also to non-whites.
And to the earlier post asking how this related to the Duck Dynasty idiots, I was calling out the use in this specific thread.
Replace "duck dynasty asshat" with rapper. Replace "white trash"...
It's dehumanizing on at least a partial basis of race. Defend it all you wish.
Back on topic anyways, I can't even look at Facebook right now.
Someone is quoting fucking Leviticus right now. I want to reach through the screen and grab them their ears and remind them that same book could be used to justify all manner of horrible things being done to them. Just stop it.
Okay, well, I'm sorry I don't agree with you more? Or whatever? Feel free to get offended, I guess.
But zagdrob is right and this tangent is a little dumb.
Anyway, Republicans have taken this cause up, particularly 2016 hopefuls.
There are others as well.
It is most definitely worse to use because it's derogatory towards poor people that do not have much power. The racism angle is silly.
"White trash" is for a subset of poor, conservative white folks what "queer" is for a lot of gays.
pleasepaypreacher.net
So cry me a river
When a guy quotes that to me I ask him if he sleeps in the toolshed when his wife is on her period
But he was poor as a kid. Which is why, as "white trash," he had to work right next to the blacks.
EDIT: All the blacks. And he has no understanding of what this means.
Fair point, but the vast majority of folks who self-identify as such are going to be.
pleasepaypreacher.net
There are plenty of people I would readily classify as 'white trash' who were raised upper-middle class and have top quintile incomes.
Maybe that's just where I live though. Basically, a person can easily be poor without being white trash, and the other way around.
But either way...I tire of concern trolls who just want us to think of the reverse-racism against the poor oppressed white people. It's like the 'War on Christmas' bullshit - oh, yeah, Christians in the United States are such an oppressed group.