Also, I'm been on the internet for 20 years and I've learned that even if your characters aren't fucking.
People will have them fuck.
Some of the time the most unlikely pairs will fuck.
That's just how people work.
Shouldn't stop you from telling your story.
And you see, now this has me thinking about something I said earlier. Why I like these talks.
Yeah, well, maybe you don't want your characters to be fucking and by making them all the same gender and sexuality you feel it's easier to ignore the people who pair them up.
Like, people who wrote Fred/George Harry Potter fanfiction are clearly fucked and can be safely ignored.
3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Also, I'm been on the internet for 20 years and I've learned that even if your characters aren't fucking.
People will have them fuck.
Some of the time the most unlikely pairs will fuck.
That's just how people work.
Shouldn't stop you from telling your story.
And you see, now this has me thinking about something I said earlier. Why I like these talks.
Personally I feel that female characters suffer from shipping way more often than males, though people have insisted to me on the contrary.
Lara Croft and her best buddy got shipped in maybe...zero seconds.
You want to talk about the inability to write platonic relationships, it seems impossible for a female to have a friend she cares about without a horde of fans whispering "make out!" in the bushes behind them.
In my more innocent years I was really into the fanfiction/fanart community.
It is possible to tell the same story with a female character, but it is more difficult.
And how did we come to this conclusion when this hypothetical female character has no defined personality traits?
Why remove the important bit of my post?
Because it wasn't relevant or important to the question I posed.
A question that still stands.
We didn't come to that conclusion. My point was and remains that if you want to tell a certain type of story, the simplest method of doing so is to constrain variables. A female character with defined personality traits is more than capable of fulfilling the same role, but will require additional writing effort - additional establishing of the nature of their relationship (this suggests an assumption of heterosexuality with the rest of the cast) and additional overcoming of preconceptions, which will vary for each individual experiencing the story.
These preconceptions you refer to only occur in a world where you establish them.
You could write an entire full length novel about a male and female character, just to use the most basic example, and never even mention relationship once. Or the idea that preconceptions exist. It just wouldn't come up, and the story would still be whole and complete. If the writing is good, the reader won't even think about it, or if they do, it'll be a result of their own preconceptions. There wouldn't be anything wrong with the book. It just didn't bring up stuff it didn't need to.
This applies to video games to. If you want to tell a bonding story of friends with characters of differing gender, then you just do it. There isn't any additional writing to do. There's actually less writing to do.
What people aren't understanding about your point is why you think that this establishment of relationship or overcoming of perceptions are an innate aspect. You start the story, establish who the characters are, maybe some back story, then start the adventure. Topics don't come up unless you make them.
As a writer, I think it's important to be aware of what preconceptions your audience are going into your story with. This is incredibly vital if you have any intention of subverting those expectations or increasing awareness in any meaningful capacity. Authorial intent is something I find incredibly interesting, and I am fascinated by how two people can have radically different interpretations of a character or a scene.
I mean yeah
If you're trying to write a story for and around the subversion of gender roles in our modern society, then yes gender is going to need to take a pretty big role
The point of discussion though is about 4 people in a car driving around killing monsters. Such a story can remain simple and still be culturally relevant by just a simple, unmentioned subversion. Adding a woman into a role she might not normally be seen in. A friend character who never brings up romance, or sex, or anything, and is just there to have a good fucking time with her friends driving around killing monsters.
That's a good Islamic point.
Everyday we stray further from God's light Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
It is possible to tell the same story with a female character, but it is more difficult.
And how did we come to this conclusion when this hypothetical female character has no defined personality traits?
Why remove the important bit of my post?
Because it wasn't relevant or important to the question I posed.
A question that still stands.
We didn't come to that conclusion. My point was and remains that if you want to tell a certain type of story, the simplest method of doing so is to constrain variables. A female character with defined personality traits is more than capable of fulfilling the same role, but will require additional writing effort - additional establishing of the nature of their relationship (this suggests an assumption of heterosexuality with the rest of the cast) and additional overcoming of preconceptions, which will vary for each individual experiencing the story.
The problem I have with this and I know it somewhat flies in the face of what I said earlier about sexual tension, is that you're implying that people can't infer stuff on their own. Which simply isn't true.
Also, what nature of this relationship would be that much more difficult to establish than it would be for say a guy?
That she isn't one of their girlfriends or something? That's why you have characterization and interaction to begin with.
And if you have the character acting in a friendly and non-sexual manner, the majority of your audience will pick up on the fact that "Hey...these guys are totally friends and not having sex with each other."
What is characterisation and interaction if not writing effort? Additionally, my premise was one of characters who are very different working well together despite that (this has along the way become characters who are friends despite their differences, which is not quite the same thing). If you were initially going to show their differences by having them bicker with one another, how is that going to be interpreted by the tsundere/love-hate crowd? That is the sort of consideration I mean by additional writing effort.
who gives a shit
why would you have to change how you write at all for that
Also, I'm been on the internet for 20 years and I've learned that even if your characters aren't fucking.
People will have them fuck.
Some of the time the most unlikely pairs will fuck.
That's just how people work.
Shouldn't stop you from telling your story.
And you see, now this has me thinking about something I said earlier. Why I like these talks.
Personally I feel that female characters suffer from shipping way more often than males, though people have insisted to me on the contrary.
Lara Croft and her best buddy got shipped in maybe...zero seconds.
You want to talk about the inability to write platonic relationships, it seems impossible for a female to have a friend she cares about without a horde of fans whispering "make out!" in the bushes behind them.
In my more innocent years I was really into the fanfiction/fanart community.
And I would say it is a pretty even split.
I think the thing I find more irksome is when people insist that it as all intentional.
You can have your ship fantasies all you want, but when you start getting defensive about its canonical accuracy or whatever then you're just showing your internet craziness.
"Fang and Vanille are totally lesbians, and you're an idiot for not seeing this! It's so obvious!"
It is possible to tell the same story with a female character, but it is more difficult.
And how did we come to this conclusion when this hypothetical female character has no defined personality traits?
Why remove the important bit of my post?
Because it wasn't relevant or important to the question I posed.
A question that still stands.
We didn't come to that conclusion. My point was and remains that if you want to tell a certain type of story, the simplest method of doing so is to constrain variables. A female character with defined personality traits is more than capable of fulfilling the same role, but will require additional writing effort - additional establishing of the nature of their relationship (this suggests an assumption of heterosexuality with the rest of the cast) and additional overcoming of preconceptions, which will vary for each individual experiencing the story.
These preconceptions you refer to only occur in a world where you establish them.
You could write an entire full length novel about a male and female character, just to use the most basic example, and never even mention relationship once. Or the idea that preconceptions exist. It just wouldn't come up, and the story would still be whole and complete. If the writing is good, the reader won't even think about it, or if they do, it'll be a result of their own preconceptions. There wouldn't be anything wrong with the book. It just didn't bring up stuff it didn't need to.
This applies to video games to. If you want to tell a bonding story of friends with characters of differing gender, then you just do it. There isn't any additional writing to do. There's actually less writing to do.
What people aren't understanding about your point is why you think that this establishment of relationship or overcoming of perceptions are an innate aspect. You start the story, establish who the characters are, maybe some back story, then start the adventure. Topics don't come up unless you make them.
As a writer, I think it's important to be aware of what preconceptions your audience are going into your story with. This is incredibly vital if you have any intention of subverting those expectations or increasing awareness in any meaningful capacity. Authorial intent is something I find incredibly interesting, and I am fascinated by how two people can have radically different interpretations of a character or a scene.
Yeah, I'm the opposite. I think it's fine to be aware of these things, but being somehow beholden to them is futile and destructive to the creative force. You do not have to subvert those expectations. Authorial intent is dead as far as criticism is concerned, or at most a museum piece.
I absolutely agree with you that being beholden to them is futile. If your desire is to subvert expectations however, you do need to be aware of them. I would also agree that authorial intent is largely irrelevant w.r.t criticism, as it's how things are received that matter. It's still a lot of fun to think about!
It is possible to tell the same story with a female character, but it is more difficult.
And how did we come to this conclusion when this hypothetical female character has no defined personality traits?
Why remove the important bit of my post?
Because it wasn't relevant or important to the question I posed.
A question that still stands.
We didn't come to that conclusion. My point was and remains that if you want to tell a certain type of story, the simplest method of doing so is to constrain variables. A female character with defined personality traits is more than capable of fulfilling the same role, but will require additional writing effort - additional establishing of the nature of their relationship (this suggests an assumption of heterosexuality with the rest of the cast) and additional overcoming of preconceptions, which will vary for each individual experiencing the story.
The problem I have with this and I know it somewhat flies in the face of what I said earlier about sexual tension, is that you're implying that people can't infer stuff on their own. Which simply isn't true.
Also, what nature of this relationship would be that much more difficult to establish than it would be for say a guy?
That she isn't one of their girlfriends or something? That's why you have characterization and interaction to begin with.
And if you have the character acting in a friendly and non-sexual manner, the majority of your audience will pick up on the fact that "Hey...these guys are totally friends and not having sex with each other."
What is characterisation and interaction if not writing effort? Additionally, my premise was one of characters who are very different working well together despite that (this has along the way become characters who are friends despite their differences, which is not quite the same thing). If you were initially going to show their differences by having them bicker with one another, how is that going to be interpreted by the tsundere/love-hate crowd? That is the sort of consideration I mean by additional writing effort.
who gives a shit
why would you have to change how you write at all for that
If you're trying to write a story that's impossible for people to ship or modify/change in their heads then you're not only on a one way street to madnesstown, but you're also just trying to deny people a fundamental aspect of their human flesh brains. Imaaaggggiiinnnaaatttiiiooon.
You may as well walk naked and alone into the ocean trying to stop the tidal force of the moon.
My first thoughts when seeing that roadtrip cast was
"Huh, Square knows it's audience. These dudes are going to satisfy the "Sepheroth is my Bishie" young adults."
"how cool would it be if that cast had someone who transitioned, and was treated respectfully."
It is possible to tell the same story with a female character, but it is more difficult.
And how did we come to this conclusion when this hypothetical female character has no defined personality traits?
Why remove the important bit of my post?
Because it wasn't relevant or important to the question I posed.
A question that still stands.
We didn't come to that conclusion. My point was and remains that if you want to tell a certain type of story, the simplest method of doing so is to constrain variables. A female character with defined personality traits is more than capable of fulfilling the same role, but will require additional writing effort - additional establishing of the nature of their relationship (this suggests an assumption of heterosexuality with the rest of the cast) and additional overcoming of preconceptions, which will vary for each individual experiencing the story.
These preconceptions you refer to only occur in a world where you establish them.
You could write an entire full length novel about a male and female character, just to use the most basic example, and never even mention relationship once. Or the idea that preconceptions exist. It just wouldn't come up, and the story would still be whole and complete. If the writing is good, the reader won't even think about it, or if they do, it'll be a result of their own preconceptions. There wouldn't be anything wrong with the book. It just didn't bring up stuff it didn't need to.
This applies to video games to. If you want to tell a bonding story of friends with characters of differing gender, then you just do it. There isn't any additional writing to do. There's actually less writing to do.
What people aren't understanding about your point is why you think that this establishment of relationship or overcoming of perceptions are an innate aspect. You start the story, establish who the characters are, maybe some back story, then start the adventure. Topics don't come up unless you make them.
As a writer, I think it's important to be aware of what preconceptions your audience are going into your story with. This is incredibly vital if you have any intention of subverting those expectations or increasing awareness in any meaningful capacity. Authorial intent is something I find incredibly interesting, and I am fascinated by how two people can have radically different interpretations of a character or a scene.
Yeah, I'm the opposite. I think it's fine to be aware of these things, but being somehow beholden to them is futile and destructive to the creative force. You do not have to subvert those expectations. Authorial intent is dead as far as criticism is concerned, or at most a museum piece.
I absolutely agree with you that being beholden to them is futile. If your desire is to subvert expectations however, you do need to be aware of them. I would also agree that authorial intent is largely irrelevant w.r.t criticism, as it's how things are received that matter. It's still a lot of fun to think about!
Not really. It might make you oafish or myopic when it comes to how people respond to your work, but being aware of them is similar to being beholden to them. Not being aware of them means they can't influence your work as its being written, which is fine.
Thinking about authorial intent is navel gazing, but sure, it's fun.
sarukun on
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
It is possible to tell the same story with a female character, but it is more difficult.
And how did we come to this conclusion when this hypothetical female character has no defined personality traits?
Why remove the important bit of my post?
Because it wasn't relevant or important to the question I posed.
A question that still stands.
We didn't come to that conclusion. My point was and remains that if you want to tell a certain type of story, the simplest method of doing so is to constrain variables. A female character with defined personality traits is more than capable of fulfilling the same role, but will require additional writing effort - additional establishing of the nature of their relationship (this suggests an assumption of heterosexuality with the rest of the cast) and additional overcoming of preconceptions, which will vary for each individual experiencing the story.
The problem I have with this and I know it somewhat flies in the face of what I said earlier about sexual tension, is that you're implying that people can't infer stuff on their own. Which simply isn't true.
Also, what nature of this relationship would be that much more difficult to establish than it would be for say a guy?
That she isn't one of their girlfriends or something? That's why you have characterization and interaction to begin with.
And if you have the character acting in a friendly and non-sexual manner, the majority of your audience will pick up on the fact that "Hey...these guys are totally friends and not having sex with each other."
What is characterisation and interaction if not writing effort? Additionally, my premise was one of characters who are very different working well together despite that (this has along the way become characters who are friends despite their differences, which is not quite the same thing). If you were initially going to show their differences by having them bicker with one another, how is that going to be interpreted by the tsundere/love-hate crowd? That is the sort of consideration I mean by additional writing effort.
Well, that's why I posed my intentional question.
You can't know how difficult a character is going to be to implement and the hurdles you will face until you give them a personality. And even then it still your choice as a writer what you do and don't deal with.
So yeah, if you have to character constantly hounding on its other people will see sexual tension(as they've been trained to do) but I don't know if that requires more work.
If I could use that example.
The whole bickering friends become lovers isn't anything new, but even then that dynamic of going from bickering friends to lover doesn't change until you make it change. This happens a lot in TV shows and book series where "Will they or won't they" is a big part of the question. And the thing is a lot of writers hold off on answering that question for as long as possible, if at all.
The thing is that dynamic doesn't change from platonic to romantic until you as a writer decide you want to change it. You could keep it platonic as possible and while that might ruin some fans expectations, it would be the same as writing any other friendly yet antagonistic relationship.
Also, I'm been on the internet for 20 years and I've learned that even if your characters aren't fucking.
People will have them fuck.
Some of the time the most unlikely pairs will fuck.
That's just how people work.
Shouldn't stop you from telling your story.
And you see, now this has me thinking about something I said earlier. Why I like these talks.
Personally I feel that female characters suffer from shipping way more often than males, though people have insisted to me on the contrary.
Lara Croft and her best buddy got shipped in maybe...zero seconds.
You want to talk about the inability to write platonic relationships, it seems impossible for a female to have a friend she cares about without a horde of fans whispering "make out!" in the bushes behind them.
Eh, that shouldn't really be surprising. Lara is the hero rescuing the damsel. The game designers were pretty savvy about gender roles in games throughout that story, and they knew exactly what that kind of story archetype would imply to the audience. There's certainly never any explicit suggestions, but then Lara being heterosexual is never actually stated, either.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Personally I would actually be for the Lara/Sam thing being canon. I think it would be a cute and interesting alternative that could (potentially) be handled respectfully.
The problem I have is that the majority of people who ship them and other female characters aren't usually doing it because of alternative storytelling, it's because they want to see two hot girls make out.
It's probably the same deal with male shipping, sure, but personally speaking I see females getting shipped more for the flimsiest of reasons.
It is possible to tell the same story with a female character, but it is more difficult.
And how did we come to this conclusion when this hypothetical female character has no defined personality traits?
Why remove the important bit of my post?
Because it wasn't relevant or important to the question I posed.
A question that still stands.
We didn't come to that conclusion. My point was and remains that if you want to tell a certain type of story, the simplest method of doing so is to constrain variables. A female character with defined personality traits is more than capable of fulfilling the same role, but will require additional writing effort - additional establishing of the nature of their relationship (this suggests an assumption of heterosexuality with the rest of the cast) and additional overcoming of preconceptions, which will vary for each individual experiencing the story.
These preconceptions you refer to only occur in a world where you establish them.
You could write an entire full length novel about a male and female character, just to use the most basic example, and never even mention relationship once. Or the idea that preconceptions exist. It just wouldn't come up, and the story would still be whole and complete. If the writing is good, the reader won't even think about it, or if they do, it'll be a result of their own preconceptions. There wouldn't be anything wrong with the book. It just didn't bring up stuff it didn't need to.
This applies to video games to. If you want to tell a bonding story of friends with characters of differing gender, then you just do it. There isn't any additional writing to do. There's actually less writing to do.
What people aren't understanding about your point is why you think that this establishment of relationship or overcoming of perceptions are an innate aspect. You start the story, establish who the characters are, maybe some back story, then start the adventure. Topics don't come up unless you make them.
As a writer, I think it's important to be aware of what preconceptions your audience are going into your story with. This is incredibly vital if you have any intention of subverting those expectations or increasing awareness in any meaningful capacity. Authorial intent is something I find incredibly interesting, and I am fascinated by how two people can have radically different interpretations of a character or a scene.
Yeah, I'm the opposite. I think it's fine to be aware of these things, but being somehow beholden to them is futile and destructive to the creative force. You do not have to subvert those expectations. Authorial intent is dead as far as criticism is concerned, or at most a museum piece.
I absolutely agree with you that being beholden to them is futile. If your desire is to subvert expectations however, you do need to be aware of them. I would also agree that authorial intent is largely irrelevant w.r.t criticism, as it's how things are received that matter. It's still a lot of fun to think about!
Not really. It might make you oafish or myopic when it comes to how people respond to your work, but being aware of them is similar to being beholden to them. Not being aware of them means they can't influence your work as its being written, which is fine.
Thinking about authorial intent is navel gazing, but sure, it's fun.
Okay, well, you've gone from saying that you think it's okay to be aware of them to that making you oafish and myopic, so.
It is possible to tell the same story with a female character, but it is more difficult.
And how did we come to this conclusion when this hypothetical female character has no defined personality traits?
Why remove the important bit of my post?
Because it wasn't relevant or important to the question I posed.
A question that still stands.
We didn't come to that conclusion. My point was and remains that if you want to tell a certain type of story, the simplest method of doing so is to constrain variables. A female character with defined personality traits is more than capable of fulfilling the same role, but will require additional writing effort - additional establishing of the nature of their relationship (this suggests an assumption of heterosexuality with the rest of the cast) and additional overcoming of preconceptions, which will vary for each individual experiencing the story.
The problem I have with this and I know it somewhat flies in the face of what I said earlier about sexual tension, is that you're implying that people can't infer stuff on their own. Which simply isn't true.
Also, what nature of this relationship would be that much more difficult to establish than it would be for say a guy?
That she isn't one of their girlfriends or something? That's why you have characterization and interaction to begin with.
And if you have the character acting in a friendly and non-sexual manner, the majority of your audience will pick up on the fact that "Hey...these guys are totally friends and not having sex with each other."
What is characterisation and interaction if not writing effort? Additionally, my premise was one of characters who are very different working well together despite that (this has along the way become characters who are friends despite their differences, which is not quite the same thing). If you were initially going to show their differences by having them bicker with one another, how is that going to be interpreted by the tsundere/love-hate crowd? That is the sort of consideration I mean by additional writing effort.
Well, that's why I posed my intentional question.
You can't know how difficult a character is going to be to implement and the hurdles you will face until you give them a personality. And even then it still your choice as a writer what you do and don't deal with.
So yeah, if you have to character constantly hounding on its other people will see sexual tension(as they've been trained to do) but I don't know if that requires more work.
If I could use that example.
The whole bickering friends become lovers isn't anything new, but even then that dynamic of going from bickering friends to lover doesn't change until you make it change. This happens a lot in TV shows and book series where "Will they or won't they" is a big part of the question. And the thing is a lot of writers hold off on answering that question for as long as possible, if at all.
The thing is that dynamic doesn't change from platonic to romantic until you as a writer decide you want to change it. You could keep it platonic as possible and while that might ruin some fans expectations, it would be the same as writing any other friendly yet antagonistic relationship.
Good points.
It's past midnight and I have work tomorrow, goodnight.
in house of cards you have extended shots of two naked women fuckin' but the most you get from two men is a clothed one second kiss that's quickly taken off screen
maybe they really do want to keep the homoerotic undertones
if there is one thing I am 100% for it's more implicitly gay stuff in games to make men uncomfortable
honestly at this point I think it's time to move out of the wink wink nudge nudge phase of hinting at gay relationships and actually show people in an open relationship
I feel like it's a fairly safe bet that the smart folks over at Crystal Dynamics weren't completely oblivious to the inherent cultural implications of a shot like this
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I presume you mean fetishized in mainstream media.
And also in stuff like JRPGs.
Like, hotsprings scenes where girls are groping each other (which even Persona 4 does)?
Even though none of those girls are implied to be homosexual or bisexual, they're still totally playing into the idea that lesbianism is hot and therefore more acceptable.
maybe they really do want to keep the homoerotic undertones
if there is one thing I am 100% for it's more implicitly gay stuff in games to make men uncomfortable
honestly at this point I think it's time to move out of the wink wink nudge nudge phase of hinting at gay relationships and actually show people in an open relationship
I presume you mean fetishized in mainstream media.
And also in stuff like JRPGs.
Like, hotsprings scenes where girls are groping each other (which even Persona 4 does)?
Even though none of those girls are implied to be homosexual or bisexual, they're still totally playing into the idea that lesbianism is hot and therefore more acceptable.
That strikes me as mainstream
but mostly I was referring to the fact that homosexual males are also fetishized, but the community which consumes such media is much more niche.
I presume you mean fetishized in mainstream media.
And also in stuff like JRPGs.
Like, hotsprings scenes where girls are groping each other (which even Persona 4 does)?
Even though none of those girls are implied to be homosexual or bisexual, they're still totally playing into the idea that lesbianism is hot and therefore more acceptable.
That strikes me as mainstream
but mostly I was referring to the fact that homosexual males are also fetishized, but the community which consumes such media is much more niche.
I was thinking that even if it's not specified as a romantic relationship the player could easily still decide that it is one. BUT they could also decide that the dudes are gettin it on as well, which again could very well be square's intent.
I presume you mean fetishized in mainstream media.
And also in stuff like JRPGs.
Like, hotsprings scenes where girls are groping each other (which even Persona 4 does)?
Even though none of those girls are implied to be homosexual or bisexual, they're still totally playing into the idea that lesbianism is hot and therefore more acceptable.
the funny part is I don't know if you have ever been in the locker room of a sports team but there is an awful lot of gay shit going on in there between men that are not actually gay
I presume you mean fetishized in mainstream media.
And also in stuff like JRPGs.
Like, hotsprings scenes where girls are groping each other (which even Persona 4 does)?
Even though none of those girls are implied to be homosexual or bisexual, they're still totally playing into the idea that lesbianism is hot and therefore more acceptable.
That strikes me as mainstream
but mostly I was referring to the fact that homosexual males are also fetishized, but the community which consumes such media is much more niche.
I was thinking that even if it's not specified as a romantic relationship the player could easily still decide that it is one. BUT they could also decide that the dudes are gettin it on as well, which again could very well be square's intent.
Which is why I find Shen's logic so incredibly frustrating and confusing
I think it's a lot more likely to be assumed that the male and female leads will fall in love or whatever but that's just what I think it could be wrong
like as soon as they see the two they are going to think "oh, love interest"
That's a hard thing to write around for sure. Like in Pacific Rim, I felt completely sure the two leads had a platonic friendship primarily, but all my friends were convinced it was romantic.
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Yeah, well, maybe you don't want your characters to be fucking and by making them all the same gender and sexuality you feel it's easier to ignore the people who pair them up.
Like, people who wrote Fred/George Harry Potter fanfiction are clearly fucked and can be safely ignored.
In my more innocent years I was really into the fanfiction/fanart community.
And I would say it is a pretty even split.
That's a good Islamic point.
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
who gives a shit
why would you have to change how you write at all for that
I think the thing I find more irksome is when people insist that it as all intentional.
You can have your ship fantasies all you want, but when you start getting defensive about its canonical accuracy or whatever then you're just showing your internet craziness.
"Fang and Vanille are totally lesbians, and you're an idiot for not seeing this! It's so obvious!"
Blog||Tumblr|Steam|Twitter|FFXIV|Twitch|YouTube|Podcast|PSN|XBL|DarkZero
I absolutely agree with you that being beholden to them is futile. If your desire is to subvert expectations however, you do need to be aware of them. I would also agree that authorial intent is largely irrelevant w.r.t criticism, as it's how things are received that matter. It's still a lot of fun to think about!
I give a shit.
You may as well walk naked and alone into the ocean trying to stop the tidal force of the moon.
"Huh, Square knows it's audience. These dudes are going to satisfy the "Sepheroth is my Bishie" young adults."
"how cool would it be if that cast had someone who transitioned, and was treated respectfully."
Not really. It might make you oafish or myopic when it comes to how people respond to your work, but being aware of them is similar to being beholden to them. Not being aware of them means they can't influence your work as its being written, which is fine.
Thinking about authorial intent is navel gazing, but sure, it's fun.
Well, that's why I posed my intentional question.
You can't know how difficult a character is going to be to implement and the hurdles you will face until you give them a personality. And even then it still your choice as a writer what you do and don't deal with.
So yeah, if you have to character constantly hounding on its other people will see sexual tension(as they've been trained to do) but I don't know if that requires more work.
If I could use that example.
The whole bickering friends become lovers isn't anything new, but even then that dynamic of going from bickering friends to lover doesn't change until you make it change. This happens a lot in TV shows and book series where "Will they or won't they" is a big part of the question. And the thing is a lot of writers hold off on answering that question for as long as possible, if at all.
The thing is that dynamic doesn't change from platonic to romantic until you as a writer decide you want to change it. You could keep it platonic as possible and while that might ruin some fans expectations, it would be the same as writing any other friendly yet antagonistic relationship.
Eh, that shouldn't really be surprising. Lara is the hero rescuing the damsel. The game designers were pretty savvy about gender roles in games throughout that story, and they knew exactly what that kind of story archetype would imply to the audience. There's certainly never any explicit suggestions, but then Lara being heterosexual is never actually stated, either.
The problem I have is that the majority of people who ship them and other female characters aren't usually doing it because of alternative storytelling, it's because they want to see two hot girls make out.
It's probably the same deal with male shipping, sure, but personally speaking I see females getting shipped more for the flimsiest of reasons.
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Okay, well, you've gone from saying that you think it's okay to be aware of them to that making you oafish and myopic, so.
Good points.
It's past midnight and I have work tomorrow, goodnight.
I'm very, very glad most people do not write stories in that manner
In any case, there's no reasonable reason one of the characters in XV can't be a woman and this conversation has only confirmed that for me
Dude, there is nothing wrong with his writing process.
What is crazy town is assuming that is the only writing process there is, or that it is somehow the "best" one.
before you throw stuff at me I'm just being dumb
if there is one thing I am 100% for it's more implicitly gay stuff in games to make men uncomfortable
honestly at this point I think it's time to move out of the wink wink nudge nudge phase of hinting at gay relationships and actually show people in an open relationship
And also in stuff like JRPGs.
Like, hotsprings scenes where girls are groping each other (which even Persona 4 does)?
Even though none of those girls are implied to be homosexual or bisexual, they're still totally playing into the idea that lesbianism is hot and therefore more acceptable.
let me tell you about the story of gangstalicious
That strikes me as mainstream
but mostly I was referring to the fact that homosexual males are also fetishized, but the community which consumes such media is much more niche.
Harry/Hermione stories (345)
Harry/Draco stories (6742)
Harry and Hermione was always a terrible ship
the funny part is I don't know if you have ever been in the locker room of a sports team but there is an awful lot of gay shit going on in there between men that are not actually gay
I was thinking more specifically of yaoi, but sure.
well
yes
my point was more of the "who people in that fandom want to read about fucking" variety
Which is why I find Shen's logic so incredibly frustrating and confusing
like as soon as they see the two they are going to think "oh, love interest"