Eh, it's not maybe an argument worth pages and pages of hashing it out, but let's not pretend it's unreasonable to be upset about purchasing a flying mount as a feature for an expansion that proudly and purposefully has no flying. At the very least it's a poorly thought out bonus item, in that half of the functionality is removed in the content they want you to spend most of your time in. I'll grant the raven doesn't look terrible running on the ground, but it still feels like the poor thing's been hobbled for no good reason.
In any case, blame the buyer, blame the seller, it's not a good match for the content it was attached to and it feels a little bit like a bait and switch. A sea mount in a land-only expansion would have been equally obtuse, regardless of whether it could awkwardly flop about on land. I can only imagine how the people that paid $25 for the bat or something must feel. Whoever it is is trying to stuff the flying genie back in the bottle, despite having happily offered $25 flying mounts for years and touted flying mounts and flying zones as fun, fun, fun, and no one should be surprised if that pisses people off now that they've gone all self-loathing and judgmental about it.
Don't lead people down the garden path and then sneer at them for following you. People hate that.
How is it a bait and switch? The fact that there would be no flying was known well before preorders happened.
No, the waffling on if there would be flying (yes, then no, then maybe, then no, then later, then no, then later, and now still no but maybe) was known prior to preorders. And the whole point of the dumb ass bird was that it was the fucking Anzu mount BUT IT COULD FLY. This is taking the main thing that made the mount neato and unique and shitting all over it.
The only waffling there was around flying is if they'd restore it in a patch past launch, it not being there at launch was extremely confirmed. Also they totally specifically decided to not allow flying in WoD to shit all over the special edition mount, you've stumbled onto their diabolical plan.
Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
Bait & switch would have been advertising materials listing Draenor flying in 6.0 as feature of the expansion and then when you logged in on release day learning that it had not been implemented or had been pushed back to 6.1. This is not even close to what happened. They had been very open about Draenor flying not even being a possbility prior to 6.1 and even then only a possibility.
For an actual example of Blizzard pulling a bait & switch look at the Wrath box listing aerial dogfighting as a release feature and see how that turned out.
People making assumptions based on what they want then getting mad that they turned out wrong does not constitute a bait & switch.
The only thing that worries me is that they thing it's "a good idea," and keep doing it in the next expansion. Regardless of how successful it was in MoP and WoD, I don't want them to keep doing it.
Bait & switch would have been advertising materials listing Draenor flying in 6.0 as feature of the expansion and then when you logged in on release day learning that it had not been implemented or had been pushed back to 6.1. This is not even close to what happened. They had been very open about Draenor flying not even being a possbility prior to 6.1 and even then only a possibility.
I agree completely and I don't feel like I was tricked or anything. I knew flying wasn't going to be in the expansion, and while disappointed, I figured the rest of the content would balance that out for me. Instead it all made me realize just how much I personally really liked flying and do not want to play WoW without it. I make no demands of Blizzard and don't feel like they owe me anything. It is their game.
That's it.
The apologetic sympathizing with Blizzard is pretty ridiculous in here though. Basically you agree with Blizzard or you're wrong and <here is why>. None of us would be posting in here if we didn't like the game at least in some way.
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Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
Bait & switch would have been advertising materials listing Draenor flying in 6.0 as feature of the expansion and then when you logged in on release day learning that it had not been implemented or had been pushed back to 6.1. This is not even close to what happened. They had been very open about Draenor flying not even being a possbility prior to 6.1 and even then only a possibility.
I agree completely and I don't feel like I was tricked or anything. I knew flying wasn't going to be in the expansion, and while disappointed, I figured the rest of the content would balance that out for me. Instead it all made me realize just how much I personally really liked flying and do not want to play WoW without it. I make no demands of Blizzard and don't feel like they owe me anything. It is their game.
This guy gets it.
At this point I don't care one way or another when or if they add it. I'm happy without it and having it won't ruin my level 100 garrison-sitting-while-waiting-for-queue experience.
The apologetic sympathizing with Blizzard is pretty ridiculous in here though. Basically you agree with Blizzard or you're wrong and <here is why>. None of us would be posting in here if we didn't like the game at least in some way.
Right because Blizzard totally let you have a mount that could fly, while you could fly on it, months before you couldn't was just some hilarious plan to troll people, and thinking otherwise is being apologetic.
The apologetic sympathizing with Blizzard is pretty ridiculous in here though. Basically you agree with Blizzard or you're wrong and <here is why>. None of us would be posting in here if we didn't like the game at least in some way.
Right because Blizzard totally let you have a mount that could fly, while you could fly on it, months before you couldn't was just some hilarious plan to troll people, and thinking otherwise is being apologetic.
How about anyone that buys the deluxe version today? What current content do they fly in with their current expansion bonus mount? Your scenario existed for 6(?) months. No one after that matters? It especially affects less informed consumers, which I imagine is a large chunk of the 7 million people. Hell, the product page on the bnet store mentions "swooping down from the skies" on the bonus mount. It isn't technically wrong though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And this is by far not even close to the first or only example from this thread.
So anyways. Got Pally to 36 last night with minimal effort by exclusively queueing for SM. I added RFK and Uldaman to the list, but SM was the only one that ever popped. Also, it's pretty crazy how bad some people are at healing and/or not pulling every add in the instance (Hint: you get more XP by running the instances faster than you do by killing more trash). There was a Resto Sham who wouldn't move with the group, so pats relentlessly facepulled onto him. I probably killed an extra 3-4 packs in the courtyard by the "punch you in the face with fire" boss due to him not moving. Conversely, there was a Fury (I think) Warr who was completely destroying meters. He was at least double -- if not triple -- the next closest person. It was pretty ridiculously fun. And, finally, there was a Hunter who was adamant about keeping Growl turned on and having his pet pull trash and bosses off of me.
Things are going well, but I feel like I need more AOE aggro than I have. Does anyone know when I'll get Consecration with the new system?
The apologetic sympathizing with Blizzard is pretty ridiculous in here though. Basically you agree with Blizzard or you're wrong and <here is why>. None of us would be posting in here if we didn't like the game at least in some way.
Right because Blizzard totally let you have a mount that could fly, while you could fly on it, months before you couldn't was just some hilarious plan to troll people, and thinking otherwise is being apologetic.
How about anyone that buys the deluxe version today? What current content do they fly in with their current expansion bonus mount? Your scenario existed for 6(?) months. No one after that matters? It especially affects less informed consumers, which I imagine is a large chunk of the 7 million people. Hell, the product page on the bnet store mentions "swooping down from the skies" on the bonus mount. It isn't technically wrong though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And this is by far not even close to the first or only example from this thread.
You are grasping at straws with hypothetical situations now all to die on a hill opposing the idea that Blizzard maybe didn't maliciously and intentionally troll its own customers.
Viskod on
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Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
Consecration is 34. You also have Hammer of the Righteous and Holy Wrath at 20 and Avenger's Shield at 10.
Paladins have silly amounts of AOE threat generation. Are you using Seal of Righteousness and Righteous Fury?
Hm. I don't remember seeing Consecration in the spellbook, so I'll have to check again. Problem with those three other spells is they have cooldown lengths that aren't conducive to speed runs with other geared alts.
I'm using Seal of Whatever Heals You When You Hit Something Because The Healer Can't Keep Up, and I do have Righteous Fury always on.
I don't believe they're trolling, they're just being lazy. They're treating good quest design with flying as an impossibility, and neglect to provide insight as to how or why they came to this conclusion, instead simply turning the question around on the player. "Well, how would YOU do it?" It's a lazy answer that doesn't do the playerbase any good and just makes the quest design team look inept.
I don't believe they're trolling, they're just being lazy.
Ding ding. Exactly that. I never once claimed they are doing it maliciously. It's entirely laziness and par for the course for their newer attitude about the game.
Nothing I've ever seen Blizzard do is intentionally harmful to someone.
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FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
I actually agree with you, I don't think that Blizzard was actively trying to rip people off by selling them a useless flight mount immediately prior to WARLORDS' release. What it does show is the lack of top-level leadership heading into this expansion; I would guess that they STILL have not decided whether to allow flight in Draenor or not.
Holy Cow, people, make a danged decision and stick with it.
I don't believe they're trolling, they're just being lazy. They're treating good quest design with flying as an impossibility, and neglect to provide insight as to how or why they came to this conclusion, instead simply turning the question around on the player. "Well, how would YOU do it?" It's a lazy answer that doesn't do the playerbase any good and just makes the quest design team look inept.
Good quest design with flying in WoW is an impossibility. There's absolutely no ways to work around flying in WoW that doesn't either compromise the quest quality or temporarily make you unable to fly.
I actually agree with you, I don't think that Blizzard was actively trying to rip people off by selling them a useless flight mount immediately prior to WARLORDS' release. What it does show is the lack of top-level leadership heading into this expansion; I would guess that they STILL have not decided whether to allow flight in Draenor or not.
Holy Cow, people, make a danged decision and stick with it.
How does the mount having flying show a lack of top-level leadership? Would you have rather have them given you a non-flying mount with the excuse "well you can't fly in Draenor so it doesn't matter"?
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
So blizzard confirmed in a tweet (with a note that they're going to be putting up a blog post about it) the ilvl variation that was found on the PTR for the upcoming raid, Hellfire Citadel. That is to say, the ilvl of loot within a difficulty increases as you go from the starting bosses to the end boss (ie- Archimonde drops the highest ilvl gear from the raid). The variation in this case being 15 ilvls from start to end.
I really hope they plan on tweaking his item table in subsequent PTR patches, in this case, as he current is dropping weapons...except not for every class. There's currently a Caster Staff, Caster One-Hand, & Strength Two-Hand but no Agility weapons.
So blizzard confirmed in a tweet (with a note that they're going to be putting up a blog post about it) the ilvl variation that was found on the PTR for the upcoming raid, Hellfire Citadel. That is to say, the ilvl of loot within a difficulty increases as you go from the starting bosses to the end boss (ie- Archimonde drops the highest ilvl gear from the raid). The variation in this case being 15 ilvls from start to end.
I really hope they plan on tweaking his item table in subsequent PTR patches, in this case, as he current is dropping weapons...except not for every class. There's currently a Caster Staff, Caster One-Hand, & Strength Two-Hand but no Agility weapons.
I'm ok with it. It means I get my optimized loadout from farm content instead of banging my head against Archi himself. It also means I'll be that much more useful when we get to Archi.
In other news, still no Heroic pants tier token for me I think it's about 8 weeks now.
With the way weapons are, you will be behind the curve of people who can get their weapon off of Archimonde. Imagine going to the next tier of content, with 1/3 of your raid has 720 weapons, 1/3 has 715, and the last third has 710 weapons... It doesn't feel good.
+/-5 ilvl compared to the 715s won't matter much, but 720 weapons will outshine the 710s. Even if the stat spread isn't that bug of a deal, people will definitely feel slighted by it.
... Unless that's how they plan to balance the classes in 6.2, but that would be way too ham-fisted
*these are of course guesses/examples since I'm not sure what the tables look like now.
I'm also not saying to take weapons away from the lower ilvl bosses. Getting weapons before the last boss is a good thing
It sounds more to me like Blizz is experimenting (again). It's the last tier of the expansion -- supposedly -- so ilvl means less. And I think that's more of what I was implying.
Everyone else will have to wait until the last boss is killed to get their weapons, while I'll have mine when we are working on him. So say what you want about ilvl disparity, but if you're still using an ilvl ~700 weapon on Archi because your next upgrade isn't until we kill him; and I've got i710; I'm going to contribute more to the first kill.
So, someone will have ~5 ilvls on me when the next expansion drops. Which won't mean a thing.
It sounds more to me like Blizz is experimenting (again). It's the last tier of the expansion -- supposedly -- so ilvl means less. And I think that's more of what I was implying.
Everyone else will have to wait until the last boss is killed to get their weapons, while I'll have mine when we are working on him. So say what you want about ilvl disparity, but if you're still using an ilvl ~700 weapon on Archi because your next upgrade isn't until we kill him; and I've got i710; I'm going to contribute more to the first kill.
So, someone will have ~5 ilvls on me when the next expansion drops. Which won't mean a thing.
That's fair, but I meant the Normal->Heroic or Heroic->Mythic transitions when I said "tier". I agree 5 ilvls won't make a difference for the next expansion.
Ah, I misunderstood. That makes a bit more sense. In that case, it just means I don't have to suffer through LFR Archi and I get to laugh at all of the rest of you. :rotate:
I would have no problems with Versatility being straight up removed. I don't care if we have less stats to around, it might mean we actually get gear that isn't awfully itemized dropping all the time. Those cloth shoulders drop from Hans and Franz every week (usually 2 of them), and I don't think there's a class in the game that wants Haste/Vers in a potential tier slot.
I would have no problems with Versatility being straight up removed. I don't care if we have less stats to around, it might mean we actually get gear that isn't awfully itemized dropping all the time. Those cloth shoulders drop from Hans and Franz every week (usually 2 of them), and I don't think there's a class in the game that wants Haste/Vers in a potential tier slot.
I think the main reason it was added in the first place was because they feel like removing it would make gear not feel 'random' enough, which is super dumb in itself and I hate it.
With the way weapons are, you will be behind the curve of people who can get their weapon off of Archimonde. Imagine going to the next tier of content, with 1/3 of your raid has 720 weapons, 1/3 has 715, and the last third has 710 weapons... It doesn't feel good.
+/-5 ilvl compared to the 715s won't matter much, but 720 weapons will outshine the 710s. Even if the stat spread isn't that bug of a deal, people will definitely feel slighted by it.
... Unless that's how they plan to balance the classes in 6.2, but that would be way too ham-fisted
*these are of course guesses/examples since I'm not sure what the tables look like now.
I'm also not saying to take weapons away from the lower ilvl bosses. Getting weapons before the last boss is a good thing
this is kinda the status quo already though; I guess everybody has the same chance for a warforged weapon now rather than just having them come from blackhand, but still
plus, we're talking about functionally the last boss of the expansion; I'd rather get my BiS weapon early on in the raid than be +5-10 ilvls after we're just farming everything anyway
they will probably just add an agi MH to his loot table or something
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I would have no problems with Versatility being straight up removed. I don't care if we have less stats to around, it might mean we actually get gear that isn't awfully itemized dropping all the time. Those cloth shoulders drop from Hans and Franz every week (usually 2 of them), and I don't think there's a class in the game that wants Haste/Vers in a potential tier slot.
I think the main reason it was added in the first place was because they feel like removing it would make gear not feel 'random' enough, which is super dumb in itself and I hate it.
The warforged and socket bullshit is plenty random. Sockets are incredibly good. It's worth 50 of your best stat, and that's only getting higher with the epic gems coming 6.2. Screw vers so hard.
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Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
It seems that's all they've got.
In any case, blame the buyer, blame the seller, it's not a good match for the content it was attached to and it feels a little bit like a bait and switch. A sea mount in a land-only expansion would have been equally obtuse, regardless of whether it could awkwardly flop about on land. I can only imagine how the people that paid $25 for the bat or something must feel. Whoever it is is trying to stuff the flying genie back in the bottle, despite having happily offered $25 flying mounts for years and touted flying mounts and flying zones as fun, fun, fun, and no one should be surprised if that pisses people off now that they've gone all self-loathing and judgmental about it.
Don't lead people down the garden path and then sneer at them for following you. People hate that.
No, the waffling on if there would be flying (yes, then no, then maybe, then no, then later, then no, then later, and now still no but maybe) was known prior to preorders. And the whole point of the dumb ass bird was that it was the fucking Anzu mount BUT IT COULD FLY. This is taking the main thing that made the mount neato and unique and shitting all over it.
R*SC: BladeCruiser
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Yeah it got buffed.
For an actual example of Blizzard pulling a bait & switch look at the Wrath box listing aerial dogfighting as a release feature and see how that turned out.
People making assumptions based on what they want then getting mad that they turned out wrong does not constitute a bait & switch.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
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The only thing that worries me is that they thing it's "a good idea," and keep doing it in the next expansion. Regardless of how successful it was in MoP and WoD, I don't want them to keep doing it.
I agree completely and I don't feel like I was tricked or anything. I knew flying wasn't going to be in the expansion, and while disappointed, I figured the rest of the content would balance that out for me. Instead it all made me realize just how much I personally really liked flying and do not want to play WoW without it. I make no demands of Blizzard and don't feel like they owe me anything. It is their game.
That's it.
The apologetic sympathizing with Blizzard is pretty ridiculous in here though. Basically you agree with Blizzard or you're wrong and <here is why>. None of us would be posting in here if we didn't like the game at least in some way.
This guy gets it.
At this point I don't care one way or another when or if they add it. I'm happy without it and having it won't ruin my level 100 garrison-sitting-while-waiting-for-queue experience.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
Right because Blizzard totally let you have a mount that could fly, while you could fly on it, months before you couldn't was just some hilarious plan to troll people, and thinking otherwise is being apologetic.
How about anyone that buys the deluxe version today? What current content do they fly in with their current expansion bonus mount? Your scenario existed for 6(?) months. No one after that matters? It especially affects less informed consumers, which I imagine is a large chunk of the 7 million people. Hell, the product page on the bnet store mentions "swooping down from the skies" on the bonus mount. It isn't technically wrong though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And this is by far not even close to the first or only example from this thread.
Things are going well, but I feel like I need more AOE aggro than I have. Does anyone know when I'll get Consecration with the new system?
You are grasping at straws with hypothetical situations now all to die on a hill opposing the idea that Blizzard maybe didn't maliciously and intentionally troll its own customers.
Paladins have silly amounts of AOE threat generation. Are you using Seal of Righteousness and Righteous Fury?
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
I'm using Seal of Whatever Heals You When You Hit Something Because The Healer Can't Keep Up, and I do have Righteous Fury always on.
Ding ding. Exactly that. I never once claimed they are doing it maliciously. It's entirely laziness and par for the course for their newer attitude about the game.
Nothing I've ever seen Blizzard do is intentionally harmful to someone.
Holy Cow, people, make a danged decision and stick with it.
i will say that maybe if being able to use one mount is the pivot on which your enjoyment tilts it's probably time to hang up the ol' spurs
How does the mount having flying show a lack of top-level leadership? Would you have rather have them given you a non-flying mount with the excuse "well you can't fly in Draenor so it doesn't matter"?
I really hope they plan on tweaking his item table in subsequent PTR patches, in this case, as he current is dropping weapons...except not for every class. There's currently a Caster Staff, Caster One-Hand, & Strength Two-Hand but no Agility weapons.
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[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Don't hold your breath.
In other news, still no Heroic pants tier token for me
+/-5 ilvl compared to the 715s won't matter much, but 720 weapons will outshine the 710s. Even if the stat spread isn't that bug of a deal, people will definitely feel slighted by it.
... Unless that's how they plan to balance the classes in 6.2, but that would be way too ham-fisted
*these are of course guesses/examples since I'm not sure what the tables look like now.
I'm also not saying to take weapons away from the lower ilvl bosses. Getting weapons before the last boss is a good thing
Everyone else will have to wait until the last boss is killed to get their weapons, while I'll have mine when we are working on him. So say what you want about ilvl disparity, but if you're still using an ilvl ~700 weapon on Archi because your next upgrade isn't until we kill him; and I've got i710; I'm going to contribute more to the first kill.
So, someone will have ~5 ilvls on me when the next expansion drops. Which won't mean a thing.
Be careful, they'll do that and have them all have versatility on them.
Single secondary stat.
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[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
I think the main reason it was added in the first place was because they feel like removing it would make gear not feel 'random' enough, which is super dumb in itself and I hate it.
this is kinda the status quo already though; I guess everybody has the same chance for a warforged weapon now rather than just having them come from blackhand, but still
plus, we're talking about functionally the last boss of the expansion; I'd rather get my BiS weapon early on in the raid than be +5-10 ilvls after we're just farming everything anyway
they will probably just add an agi MH to his loot table or something
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The warforged and socket bullshit is plenty random. Sockets are incredibly good. It's worth 50 of your best stat, and that's only getting higher with the epic gems coming 6.2. Screw vers so hard.
On the one hand, why the fuck would you bot (he did it for levelling at the start of the expansion).
On the other hand, he was one of our better raiders in terms of knowing how to play his classes.
Currently DMing: None
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[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12