Very soon, but not just yet! August 6th apparently.
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miscellaneousinsanitygrass grows, birds fly, sun shines,and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered Userregular
hey folks, this may not be exactly the right venue to ask this but i don't think there's an active feminism thread
a friend of mine talked to me this morning about navigating a situtation dealing with someone who _might_ be a perpetrator of sexual assault
looking for some additional perspectives and i'd rather talk about it over PMs, if anyone can spare some time i'd appreciate it
thanks
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
Well I had a fucking horrible experience at work. The subject of Caitlyn Jenner came up and people began immediately bad mouthing her and misgendering her and using the wrong name and I kept trying to correct them but they would just constantly tell me how it doesn't matter because "he's a freak" and how the fact that she's a trans woman who still likes women means it's just a weird sexual thing which is what I'm in constant worry of what people will think of me.
I had to use all my willpower not to break down and cry right there.
Well I had a fucking horrible experience at work. The subject of Caitlyn Jenner came up and people began immediately bad mouthing her and misgendering her and using the wrong name and I kept trying to correct them but they would just constantly tell me how it doesn't matter because "he's a freak" and how the fact that she's a trans woman who still likes women means it's just a weird sexual thing which is what I'm in constant worry of what people will think of me.
I had to use all my willpower not to break down and cry right there.
Well I had a fucking horrible experience at work. The subject of Caitlyn Jenner came up and people began immediately bad mouthing her and misgendering her and using the wrong name and I kept trying to correct them but they would just constantly tell me how it doesn't matter because "he's a freak" and how the fact that she's a trans woman who still likes women means it's just a weird sexual thing which is what I'm in constant worry of what people will think of me.
I had to use all my willpower not to break down and cry right there.
Ugh I am so sorry
I got this shit all the time when all the jenner magazine stories were first going up. was truly offensive and i couldn't do anything about it besides treat the customer more curt. haven't seen any recent stuff around but it's only a matter of time, and I'm not looking forward to it.
had a customer literally say "i remember when bruce jenner was on the wheaties box. now he should be on the fruit loops box!"
like holy shit how is that a thing you just say to a stranger
I honestly think it's because those people are really scared. They see their constrained, orderly, easily understood (and usually hella privileged) world coming apart in front of them, and it scares the shit out of them. So they're trying to reassure themselves that this is some kind of abnormal occurrence, that they haven't just woken up in a place they no longer recognize, that they aren't in danger of having their bigotry be rendered a minority opinion. It's performative reassurance, and as such is enacted on people who they perceive as likely to agree with them (white, apparently cis) or who aren't in a position to argue or talk back. It's for their benefit, not yours. The more people they can force or coerce to tacitly 'agree' with those comments, the more they can convince themselves that they're 'normal' and this kind of event can be safely ignored as being an aberration.
The 6th graders in my gfs school were actually being amazing about Jenner. They were using proper pronouns and getting really pissed at Drake for misgendering her and saying why can't he just be nice. Which, for yknow, 6th graders, is kind of amazing.
I honestly think it's because those people are really scared. They see their constrained, orderly, easily understood (and usually hella privileged) world coming apart in front of them, and it scares the shit out of them. So they're trying to reassure themselves that this is some kind of abnormal occurrence, that they haven't just woken up in a place they no longer recognize, that they aren't in danger of having their bigotry be rendered a minority opinion. It's performative reassurance, and as such is enacted on people who they perceive as likely to agree with them (white, apparently cis) or who aren't in a position to argue or talk back. It's for their benefit, not yours. The more people they can force or coerce to tacitly 'agree' with those comments, the more they can convince themselves that they're 'normal' and this kind of event can be safely ignored as being an aberration.
it's p. sad that a lot of folk react to people asking them not to be assholes... by doubling down on being assholes
and for all the emotional labor we can put into being patient with crap attitudes, and educating folk? it takes far less to continue being an asshole
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People can change, and even people who have said horrible things in the past can still say good, valuable things and do good, valuable things. I mean, if Jenner says something transphobic, does that mean that we're never allowed to praise anything she ever does?
I get what you're saying, but I don't agree with it as a pseudo-rule??
edit: And honestly the suggestion of like.. silencing people who want to praise someone for something positive they've done is making me v uncomfortable. it doesn't mean their negatives can't also be brought up with it, but yeah, making some rule on saying no praising anyone who has slighted the trans community is just uncomfortable.
hey, uh, this has been brewing in my mind for awhile
but Colbert and Stewart have a history of making transphobic jokes
it would be cool if I didn't have to see them get praised in the trans thread
It'd be cooler if their post- Comedy Central careers reflect a newer understanding and more mature sense of humor.
Colbert especially with taking on a bigger late night tv show platform.
e: I can't speak for @Dubh but my general observation has been that while Stewart and Colbert have obviously done lots of advocating for equality and progress, the fact that they continue to "punch down" at trans folks kinda undermines that message.
It's similar to LGBT groups who say crappy stuff about being bisexual.
Like, you can say you're inclusive, but if you're not actually inclusive, you're actually not really helping.
I mean, sure, yeah. Even that report was kinda fucked up. But saying we're never allowed to praise perceived-transphobes or talk about them or something they've done in a positive way is p silly imo
I read that stuff as being similar to people talking about Barack Obama's birth certificate. It's not about where he was born, or the importance of that constitutional issue. They don't like the colour of his skin, and they find a reason to make it something else. This isn't about the basketball player Lauren Hill, or about the award. No one cares about either of those things, really. They have a niggling need to pick at Caitlyn Jenner and their brains find a way to approach that obliquely. Not only would a lot of these people say they're not being transphobic, they'd actually believe it. Orly Adams doesn't think she's racist either.
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HawkstoneDon't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. Somewhere outside of BarstowRegistered Userregular
Well I had a fucking horrible experience at work. The subject of Caitlyn Jenner came up and people began immediately bad mouthing her and misgendering her and using the wrong name and I kept trying to correct them but they would just constantly tell me how it doesn't matter because "he's a freak" and how the fact that she's a trans woman who still likes women means it's just a weird sexual thing which is what I'm in constant worry of what people will think of me.
I had to use all my willpower not to break down and cry right there.
I work in the oil industry...pretty much the same here. The older folks are too bigoted and the younger are not mature enough to handle things outside their comfort zone.
FWIW I think Lauren Hill would be a better choice, but totally agree that its only come up as a trans takedown attempt.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
That's funny because I took Stewart's rant to be very, very feminist, and a sardonic indictment of the media's shift in its presentation of Jenner. It's about what she looks like, not what she is, and the media (even media friendly to her change) made it entirely because her presentation has changed. Because that's the difference in the way men and women are seen in this country and much of the world.
I am incredibly unlikely to change my opinion that it was awesome and well done, especially approaching it as afab, having been subjected to that kind of treatment my entire life, and leaning heavily male at this point actual gender-wise. And I think that's okay. I think I get to have an opinion on that, and I think I get to say it.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
yeah saying things like 'when you were a man' and 'welcome to being a woman' both imply that Jenner hasn't always been a woman. phrasing is important and people don't get a pass to be transphobic and transmisogynist because they are rightly pointing out that society is misogynistic. his writers could have just as easily said "when we thought you were a man", and what even is "welcome to being a woman"? how shitty is that to say? like the first gifs I saw of that clip I thought were funny because they were specifically edited to cut out all the transphobia, and without that it is funny, poignant, relevant
I guess I don't understand how it is at all controversial to say "hey colbert and stewart both have a history of punching down and using transphobic, transmisogynistic jokes and slurs so maybe in this one thread we could not focus on how totally awesome and hilarious they are and post their pictures and clips of their show and stuff". no one is saying you can't like colbert and stewart?
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Raijin QuickfootI'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPAregular
God dammit. Lost another Facebook friend who referred to Caitlyn Jenner as "Bruce Jenner playing dress up."
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
Because it's topical and I think they did a good job with this particular story, which is what is being discussed.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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MetalbourneInside a cluster b personalityRegistered Userregular
Whether the article was well done or not is beside the point. It's just too Damn early to praise either Stewart or Colbert in this thread because of what they've said in the very recent past.
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Raijin QuickfootI'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I don't think I've ever lost as many friends as I have over this. People are just so damn disrespectful it's sickening.
A friend tagged me on a post on facebook (we have talked feminism before) asking thoughts on Caitlyn, because my friend was wondering about how Caitlyn is now out as a woman, and that on the magazine cover she is shown to be quite sexy and feminine - when to my friend thats not what makes a woman (how you look, feminine/sexy), and what do people think, what makes a woman?
I said that gender is not how you look or what a doctor says you are, its what you know yourself and no one cis can ever understand it, and its harmful stereotypes that says Caitlyn must look feminine because she is now able to express herself in her gender, and that trans people know it waaay more than we ever will. I also said it is probably tricky for trans women who don't want to dress in a feminine way, but they may feel they have to so they "pass" in society way because "thats what women look like" and if they don't they may get outted and that could put their life at risk.
God I hope I haven't done you all a disservice and said the right thing. I don't want to be asked what I think and do you all wrong.
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MetalbourneInside a cluster b personalityRegistered Userregular
It's kind of like having a co-worker who never does anything and you have to pick up the slack. Then one day they do their job and everyone is like, "you should praise them" and it's like, no, I should be fucking suspicious because they probably have an agenda somewhere.
Can it not be 'The idea was pretty good, but they've still done some fucked up stuff and that should also be acknowledged'? It seems super harsh. I don't know.
Can it not be 'The idea was pretty good, but they've still done some fucked up stuff and that should also be acknowledged'? It seems super harsh. I don't know.
I'd just want to maybe focus on the legions of people with less status who are saying the good things, who don't also have all the negatives.
It's kind of like having a co-worker who never does anything and you have to pick up the slack. Then one day they do their job and everyone is like, "you should praise them" and it's like, no, I should be fucking suspicious because they probably have an agenda somewhere.
Theres a big diffo.
Nobody said, "You should praise them." They simply gave praise. If a coworker who was usually shitty was good one day, and another colleague decided to praise them, I wouldn't try to ban the other colleague from praising the shitty colleague and silence any praising of the shitty coworker. I don't have to, that's perfectly fine. But when I try to tell my coworkers what/who they can and cannot praise and silence them, that's uncomfortable and silly.
It's kind of like having a co-worker who never does anything and you have to pick up the slack. Then one day they do their job and everyone is like, "you should praise them" and it's like, no, I should be fucking suspicious because they probably have an agenda somewhere.
Theres a big diffo.
Nobody said, "You should praise them." They simply gave praise. If a coworker who was usually shitty was good one day, and another colleague decided to praise them, I wouldn't try to ban the other colleague from praising the shitty colleague and silence any praising of the shitty coworker. I don't have to, that's perfectly fine. But when I try to tell my coworkers what/who they can and cannot praise and silence them, that's uncomfortable and silly.
Praise him somewhere else then. Most of us are still pretty irritated about the days he didn't work. Literally every other thread on the forum is made for cis men. I'm sure you can find one.
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MetalbourneInside a cluster b personalityRegistered Userregular
And for the record, "welcome to womanhood" and "used to be a man" are pretty big microaggressions that trans women put up with all the time.
yeah saying things like 'when you were a man' and 'welcome to being a woman' both imply that Jenner hasn't always been a woman. phrasing is important and people don't get a pass to be transphobic and transmisogynist because they are rightly pointing out that society is misogynistic. his writers could have just as easily said "when we thought you were a man", and what even is "welcome to being a woman"? how shitty is that to say? like the first gifs I saw of that clip I thought were funny because they were specifically edited to cut out all the transphobia, and without that it is funny, poignant, relevant
I guess I don't understand how it is at all controversial to say "hey colbert and stewart both have a history of punching down and using transphobic, transmisogynistic jokes and slurs so maybe in this one thread we could not focus on how totally awesome and hilarious they are and post their pictures and clips of their show and stuff". no one is saying you can't like colbert and stewart?
Stewart's writers could have easily wrote "when you were perceived as a man" and "welcome to being seen as a woman" still made the exact same point, and I chalk that up to intellectual laziness not taking into consideration how that difference is actually transmisogynist and transphobic. So that's their fuck up.
But that's where not assuming malice when ignorance makes a lot more sense comes into play. Does that make it better? Well, kinda. It certainly makes it a lot better than the many times Colbert has made t-word jokes over the years with blatant disregard for how people felt about it and then was kind of a shithead about apologizing for it when called on it. Colbert would punch down with malice of forethought, making jokes at the expense of trans people. Stewart, at the very least in this clip, phrased things in some ignorant ways in seemingly in common error for cis people. That doesn't make it okay, but it makes it different.
These things don't need to be overlooked, but they also don't de facto invalidate the rest of what he's saying, which was the point I was making when I said "that's about the size of it". I didn't praise Stewart in any way beyond simply having a fairly accurate read of the situation, which I think he did.
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Very soon, but not just yet! August 6th apparently.
a friend of mine talked to me this morning about navigating a situtation dealing with someone who _might_ be a perpetrator of sexual assault
looking for some additional perspectives and i'd rather talk about it over PMs, if anyone can spare some time i'd appreciate it
thanks
NOOOOOOoooooo.....
I had to use all my willpower not to break down and cry right there.
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I've had to do some pruning to my list in the past over things like Trayvon Martin, Ferguson, the Supreme Court overturning gay marriage bans, etc.
I'm down to 51 people, but it seems I've finally arrived at the right amount of non-toxic people in my life, so that's cool
I wrote them a Facebook status thanking them for being awesome about this and past issues
Upside, if Colbert's retirement is anything to go by he'll be sporting a fantastic beard soon after.
Satans..... hints.....
Ugh I am so sorry
I know I get irritating sometimes, and/or get totes aggressive about intersectional
been trying to moderate myself a bit simply because it stresses ME out, but also because I just don't want to be as aggressive as I have been
this isn't an apology or anything
I just want to make it clear that I care passionately about what I believe in
I ain't perfect - I expect to make regular mistakes for the rest of my life
and no matter how certain I may sound, I doubt a lot more than I let on
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I got this shit all the time when all the jenner magazine stories were first going up. was truly offensive and i couldn't do anything about it besides treat the customer more curt. haven't seen any recent stuff around but it's only a matter of time, and I'm not looking forward to it.
had a customer literally say "i remember when bruce jenner was on the wheaties box. now he should be on the fruit loops box!"
like holy shit how is that a thing you just say to a stranger
so thats pretty cool
it's p. sad that a lot of folk react to people asking them not to be assholes... by doubling down on being assholes
and for all the emotional labor we can put into being patient with crap attitudes, and educating folk? it takes far less to continue being an asshole
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but Colbert and Stewart have a history of making transphobic jokes
it would be cool if I didn't have to see them get praised in the trans thread
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
I get what you're saying, but I don't agree with it as a pseudo-rule??
edit: And honestly the suggestion of like.. silencing people who want to praise someone for something positive they've done is making me v uncomfortable. it doesn't mean their negatives can't also be brought up with it, but yeah, making some rule on saying no praising anyone who has slighted the trans community is just uncomfortable.
It'd be cooler if their post- Comedy Central careers reflect a newer understanding and more mature sense of humor.
Colbert especially with taking on a bigger late night tv show platform.
e: I can't speak for @Dubh but my general observation has been that while Stewart and Colbert have obviously done lots of advocating for equality and progress, the fact that they continue to "punch down" at trans folks kinda undermines that message.
It's similar to LGBT groups who say crappy stuff about being bisexual.
Like, you can say you're inclusive, but if you're not actually inclusive, you're actually not really helping.
This pisses me off because she's not alive to be able to actually give her opinion. Maybe she wouldn't want her name used in this way?
Every year you can find people who deserve this award more than the person who wins it I'm sure.
I work in the oil industry...pretty much the same here. The older folks are too bigoted and the younger are not mature enough to handle things outside their comfort zone.
I am incredibly unlikely to change my opinion that it was awesome and well done, especially approaching it as afab, having been subjected to that kind of treatment my entire life, and leaning heavily male at this point actual gender-wise. And I think that's okay. I think I get to have an opinion on that, and I think I get to say it.
I guess I don't understand how it is at all controversial to say "hey colbert and stewart both have a history of punching down and using transphobic, transmisogynistic jokes and slurs so maybe in this one thread we could not focus on how totally awesome and hilarious they are and post their pictures and clips of their show and stuff". no one is saying you can't like colbert and stewart?
I said that gender is not how you look or what a doctor says you are, its what you know yourself and no one cis can ever understand it, and its harmful stereotypes that says Caitlyn must look feminine because she is now able to express herself in her gender, and that trans people know it waaay more than we ever will. I also said it is probably tricky for trans women who don't want to dress in a feminine way, but they may feel they have to so they "pass" in society way because "thats what women look like" and if they don't they may get outted and that could put their life at risk.
God I hope I haven't done you all a disservice and said the right thing. I don't want to be asked what I think and do you all wrong.
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I'd just want to maybe focus on the legions of people with less status who are saying the good things, who don't also have all the negatives.
Theres a big diffo.
Nobody said, "You should praise them." They simply gave praise. If a coworker who was usually shitty was good one day, and another colleague decided to praise them, I wouldn't try to ban the other colleague from praising the shitty colleague and silence any praising of the shitty coworker. I don't have to, that's perfectly fine. But when I try to tell my coworkers what/who they can and cannot praise and silence them, that's uncomfortable and silly.
Praise him somewhere else then. Most of us are still pretty irritated about the days he didn't work. Literally every other thread on the forum is made for cis men. I'm sure you can find one.
Stewart's writers could have easily wrote "when you were perceived as a man" and "welcome to being seen as a woman" still made the exact same point, and I chalk that up to intellectual laziness not taking into consideration how that difference is actually transmisogynist and transphobic. So that's their fuck up.
But that's where not assuming malice when ignorance makes a lot more sense comes into play. Does that make it better? Well, kinda. It certainly makes it a lot better than the many times Colbert has made t-word jokes over the years with blatant disregard for how people felt about it and then was kind of a shithead about apologizing for it when called on it. Colbert would punch down with malice of forethought, making jokes at the expense of trans people. Stewart, at the very least in this clip, phrased things in some ignorant ways in seemingly in common error for cis people. That doesn't make it okay, but it makes it different.
These things don't need to be overlooked, but they also don't de facto invalidate the rest of what he's saying, which was the point I was making when I said "that's about the size of it". I didn't praise Stewart in any way beyond simply having a fairly accurate read of the situation, which I think he did.