It's kind of like having a co-worker who never does anything and you have to pick up the slack. Then one day they do their job and everyone is like, "you should praise them" and it's like, no, I should be fucking suspicious because they probably have an agenda somewhere.
Theres a big diffo.
Nobody said, "You should praise them." They simply gave praise. If a coworker who was usually shitty was good one day, and another colleague decided to praise them, I wouldn't try to ban the other colleague from praising the shitty colleague and silence any praising of the shitty coworker. I don't have to, that's perfectly fine. But when I try to tell my coworkers what/who they can and cannot praise and silence them, that's uncomfortable and silly.
Praise him somewhere else then. Most of us are still pretty irritated about the days he didn't work. Literally every other thread on the forum is made for cis men. I'm sure you can find one.
I'm not a cis man. And it's silly to have some list of people that we're not allowed to talk about in any sort of positive light here. Yes, this thread should be a safe place, and I don't think praising someone for trying to do a good thing is making it un-safe or triggering.
yeah saying things like 'when you were a man' and 'welcome to being a woman' both imply that Jenner hasn't always been a woman. phrasing is important and people don't get a pass to be transphobic and transmisogynist because they are rightly pointing out that society is misogynistic. his writers could have just as easily said "when we thought you were a man", and what even is "welcome to being a woman"? how shitty is that to say? like the first gifs I saw of that clip I thought were funny because they were specifically edited to cut out all the transphobia, and without that it is funny, poignant, relevant
I guess I don't understand how it is at all controversial to say "hey colbert and stewart both have a history of punching down and using transphobic, transmisogynistic jokes and slurs so maybe in this one thread we could not focus on how totally awesome and hilarious they are and post their pictures and clips of their show and stuff". no one is saying you can't like colbert and stewart?
Stewart's writers could have easily wrote "when you were perceived as a man" and "welcome to being seen as a woman" still made the exact same point, and I chalk that up to intellectual laziness not taking into consideration how that difference is actually transmisogynist and transphobic. So that's their fuck up.
But that's where not assuming malice when ignorance makes a lot more sense comes into play. Does that make it better? Well, kinda. It certainly makes it a lot better than the many times Colbert has made t-word jokes over the years with blatant disregard for how people felt about it and then was kind of a shithead about apologizing for it when called on it. Colbert would punch down with malice of forethought, making jokes at the expense of trans people. Stewart, at the very least in this clip, phrased things in some ignorant ways in seemingly in common error for cis people. That doesn't make it okay, but it makes it different.
These things don't need to be overlooked, but they also don't de facto invalidate the rest of what he's saying, which was the point I was making when I said "that's about the size of it". I didn't praise Stewart in any way beyond simply having a fairly accurate read of the situation, which I think he did.
Nobody is invalidating what he's saying. We're saying that 1. He's not out of the woods yet when it comes to being problematic and 2. He has a shit ton of problematic shit to make up for and an apology wouldn't hurt either before trans women start to take him seriously.
Chasing people out of threads because you disagree with them is not appropriate behaviour. Members are proscribed from "backseat modding" for a reason.
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MetalbourneInside a cluster b personalityRegistered Userregular
Chasing people out of threads because you disagree with them is not appropriate behaviour. Members are proscribed from "backseat modding" for a reason.
Because there weren't enough thread for praising cis men already apparently.
More relevant to this particular discussion: if people are being chased out of the thread for not being trans enough, a lot of people who are questioning of their gender and/or gender queer but don't currently identify as trans (or trans enough) are going to feel unwelcome and unsafe. We have a lot of users who started reading and contributing to these threads as "cis males", became "cis males asking questions about themselves" and now identify as trans or genderqueer.
These discussions are important, and if everyone is respectful to everyone else there's a lot that people can learn from each other's viewpoints.
Can it not be 'The idea was pretty good, but they've still done some fucked up stuff and that should also be acknowledged'? It seems super harsh. I don't know.
I'd just want to maybe focus on the legions of people with less status who are saying the good things, who don't also have all the negatives.
youre welcome to also do that! This thread is a great place for that. I try to do that as much as possible. This isn't an either or situation. You, and everyone else in here can make it better and give more of a voice to those people with less status who are saying the good things by posting them here : )
More relevant to this particular discussion: if people are being chased out of the thread for not being trans enough, a lot of people who are questioning of their gender and/or gender queer but don't currently identify as trans (or trans enough) are going to feel unwelcome and unsafe. We have a lot of users who started reading and contributing to these threads as "cis males", became "cis males asking questions about themselves" and now identify as trans or genderqueer.
These discussions are important, and if everyone is respectful to everyone else there's a lot that people can learn from each other's viewpoints.
Nobody is chasing trans people out for not being trans enough. People are being chased out for defending a problematic asshole who doesn't need defending nor does he even post here. Literally any other thread he can be defended and praised in. Here it's just shitty and hurtful.
Is this the part of the thread where we devolve into attacking each other for the crime of having different opinions? Cause it would be awesome to just skip that part of the thread. Chasing out the few members we have is a great way to get a small cool kids club for high fives and shit, but a crap way to have a thread for trans people to talk about stuff.
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MetalbourneInside a cluster b personalityRegistered Userregular
More relevant to this particular discussion: if people are being chased out of the thread for not being trans enough, a lot of people who are questioning of their gender and/or gender queer but don't currently identify as trans (or trans enough) are going to feel unwelcome and unsafe. We have a lot of users who started reading and contributing to these threads as "cis males", became "cis males asking questions about themselves" and now identify as trans or genderqueer.
These discussions are important, and if everyone is respectful to everyone else there's a lot that people can learn from each other's viewpoints.
Nobody is chasing trans people out for not being trans enough. People are being chased out for defending a problematic asshole who doesn't need defending nor does he even post here. Literally any other thread he can be defended and praised in. Here it's just shitty and hurtful.
And second, don't you even think for a minute that you're doing anything to make this thread safe for trans or queer people.
I don't hate Stewart's show, for example, but I sure do get tired of people giving me morality and tolerance lecture over cis white folk
and I tried to present my opinion in the most innocuous way I could think of, too
Miss me? Find me on:
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I legit don't get how "can we not praise stewart and colbert in this one thread" means "get the fuck out if you like them"
I don't think anyone is reacting overly negatively to that statement. It got a simple disagreement from another trans memeber, and that is usually a recipe for spiraling.
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MetalbourneInside a cluster b personalityRegistered Userregular
Is this the part of the thread where we devolve into attacking each other for the crime of having different opinions? Cause it would be awesome to just skip that part of the thread. Chasing out the few members we have is a great way to get a small cool kids club for high fives and shit, but a crap way to have a thread for trans people to talk about stuff.
The problem is that we're not talking about trans issues or trans stuff in the trans thread. We're talking about yet another rich white cis guy.
More relevant to this particular discussion: if people are being chased out of the thread for not being trans enough, a lot of people who are questioning of their gender and/or gender queer but don't currently identify as trans (or trans enough) are going to feel unwelcome and unsafe. We have a lot of users who started reading and contributing to these threads as "cis males", became "cis males asking questions about themselves" and now identify as trans or genderqueer.
These discussions are important, and if everyone is respectful to everyone else there's a lot that people can learn from each other's viewpoints.
Nobody is chasing trans people out for not being trans enough. People are being chased out for defending a problematic asshole who doesn't need defending nor does he even post here. Literally any other thread he can be defended and praised in. Here it's just shitty and hurtful.
This is absolutely happening. And if you'd stop your crusade against Tube and look at your own behavior, you might understand why. This thread is hostile, toxic, and actively disenfranchising to people who do not meet a specific narrative, one that /you/ have established time and time again.
I think it absolutely needs a break after this, at the very least.
More relevant to this particular discussion: if people are being chased out of the thread for not being trans enough, a lot of people who are questioning of their gender and/or gender queer but don't currently identify as trans (or trans enough) are going to feel unwelcome and unsafe. We have a lot of users who started reading and contributing to these threads as "cis males", became "cis males asking questions about themselves" and now identify as trans or genderqueer.
These discussions are important, and if everyone is respectful to everyone else there's a lot that people can learn from each other's viewpoints.
Nobody is chasing trans people out for not being trans enough. People are being chased out for defending a problematic asshole who doesn't need defending nor does he even post here. Literally any other thread he can be defended and praised in. Here it's just shitty and hurtful.
And second, don't you even think for a minute that you're doing anything to make this thread safe for trans or queer people.
I'm not interested in entering into a debate with you about it. I'm acting as a moderator and telling you what the policy is. It isn't appropriate for users to chase other users out of threads, for any reason.
yeah saying things like 'when you were a man' and 'welcome to being a woman' both imply that Jenner hasn't always been a woman. phrasing is important and people don't get a pass to be transphobic and transmisogynist because they are rightly pointing out that society is misogynistic. his writers could have just as easily said "when we thought you were a man", and what even is "welcome to being a woman"? how shitty is that to say? like the first gifs I saw of that clip I thought were funny because they were specifically edited to cut out all the transphobia, and without that it is funny, poignant, relevant
I guess I don't understand how it is at all controversial to say "hey colbert and stewart both have a history of punching down and using transphobic, transmisogynistic jokes and slurs so maybe in this one thread we could not focus on how totally awesome and hilarious they are and post their pictures and clips of their show and stuff". no one is saying you can't like colbert and stewart?
Stewart's writers could have easily wrote "when you were perceived as a man" and "welcome to being seen as a woman" still made the exact same point, and I chalk that up to intellectual laziness not taking into consideration how that difference is actually transmisogynist and transphobic. So that's their fuck up.
But that's where not assuming malice when ignorance makes a lot more sense comes into play. Does that make it better? Well, kinda. It certainly makes it a lot better than the many times Colbert has made t-word jokes over the years with blatant disregard for how people felt about it and then was kind of a shithead about apologizing for it when called on it. Colbert would punch down with malice of forethought, making jokes at the expense of trans people. Stewart, at the very least in this clip, phrased things in some ignorant ways in seemingly in common error for cis people. That doesn't make it okay, but it makes it different.
These things don't need to be overlooked, but they also don't de facto invalidate the rest of what he's saying, which was the point I was making when I said "that's about the size of it". I didn't praise Stewart in any way beyond simply having a fairly accurate read of the situation, which I think he did.
Nobody is invalidating what he's saying. We're saying that 1. He's not out of the woods yet when it comes to being problematic and 2. He has a shit ton of problematic shit to make up for and an apology wouldn't hurt either before trans women start to take him seriously.
and i think it's totally valid to bring that up if someone posts a Jon Stewart video or praises something Jon Stewart says
to be honest, I didn't even realize Jon Stewart was on trans people's shitlist until this very conversation. I knew Stephen Colbert was because of the multitude of t-word jokes he's made over the years, but I didn't know Stewart was or why (is it by extension of being a producer on Colbert's show or is it stuff specific to his show? idk)
which means discussing it was useful and told me things I didn't know before.
Is this the part of the thread where we devolve into attacking each other for the crime of having different opinions? Cause it would be awesome to just skip that part of the thread. Chasing out the few members we have is a great way to get a small cool kids club for high fives and shit, but a crap way to have a thread for trans people to talk about stuff.
The problem is that we're not talking about trans issues or trans stuff in the trans thread. We're talking about yet another rich white cis guy.
No we are talking about whether or not we can discuss a bit in a show that was directly dealing with trans issues. Trying to reframe it away into some how just talking about Jon isn't going to work for me. A cis white guy talking about trans stuff is still talking about trans stuff. Including dumping on him for fucking up those two lines in a major way. The topic would be long dead If it weren't for the battle over trying to blanket ban a topic the community here is clearly not united in banning.
yeah saying things like 'when you were a man' and 'welcome to being a woman' both imply that Jenner hasn't always been a woman. phrasing is important and people don't get a pass to be transphobic and transmisogynist because they are rightly pointing out that society is misogynistic. his writers could have just as easily said "when we thought you were a man", and what even is "welcome to being a woman"? how shitty is that to say? like the first gifs I saw of that clip I thought were funny because they were specifically edited to cut out all the transphobia, and without that it is funny, poignant, relevant
I guess I don't understand how it is at all controversial to say "hey colbert and stewart both have a history of punching down and using transphobic, transmisogynistic jokes and slurs so maybe in this one thread we could not focus on how totally awesome and hilarious they are and post their pictures and clips of their show and stuff". no one is saying you can't like colbert and stewart?
Stewart's writers could have easily wrote "when you were perceived as a man" and "welcome to being seen as a woman" still made the exact same point, and I chalk that up to intellectual laziness not taking into consideration how that difference is actually transmisogynist and transphobic. So that's their fuck up.
But that's where not assuming malice when ignorance makes a lot more sense comes into play. Does that make it better? Well, kinda. It certainly makes it a lot better than the many times Colbert has made t-word jokes over the years with blatant disregard for how people felt about it and then was kind of a shithead about apologizing for it when called on it. Colbert would punch down with malice of forethought, making jokes at the expense of trans people. Stewart, at the very least in this clip, phrased things in some ignorant ways in seemingly in common error for cis people. That doesn't make it okay, but it makes it different.
These things don't need to be overlooked, but they also don't de facto invalidate the rest of what he's saying, which was the point I was making when I said "that's about the size of it". I didn't praise Stewart in any way beyond simply having a fairly accurate read of the situation, which I think he did.
Nobody is invalidating what he's saying. We're saying that 1. He's not out of the woods yet when it comes to being problematic and 2. He has a shit ton of problematic shit to make up for and an apology wouldn't hurt either before trans women start to take him seriously.
and i think it's totally valid to bring that up if someone posts a Jon Stewart video or praises something Jon Stewart says
to be honest, I didn't even realize Jon Stewart was on trans people's shitlist until this very conversation. I knew Stephen Colbert was because of the multitude of t-word jokes he's made over the years, but I didn't know Stewart was or why (is it by extension of being a producer on Colbert's show or is it stuff specific to his show? idk)
which means discussing it was useful and told me things I didn't know before.
Stewart dropped it more sooner than Colbert did
all the same, seeing cis white dudes get more praise and defense in a trans thread makes me unhappy
if you want a recommendation? bring up more people of color, especially queer people of color
More relevant to this particular discussion: if people are being chased out of the thread for not being trans enough, a lot of people who are questioning of their gender and/or gender queer but don't currently identify as trans (or trans enough) are going to feel unwelcome and unsafe. We have a lot of users who started reading and contributing to these threads as "cis males", became "cis males asking questions about themselves" and now identify as trans or genderqueer.
These discussions are important, and if everyone is respectful to everyone else there's a lot that people can learn from each other's viewpoints.
Nobody is chasing trans people out for not being trans enough. People are being chased out for defending a problematic asshole who doesn't need defending nor does he even post here. Literally any other thread he can be defended and praised in. Here it's just shitty and hurtful.
This is absolutely happening. And if you'd stop your crusade against Tube and look at your own behavior, you might understand why. This thread is hostile, toxic, and actively disenfranchising to people who do not meet a specific narrative, one that /you/ have established time and time again.
I think it absolutely needs a break after this, at the very least.
More than once I have felt like if I don't toe the line for a certain narative I am simply not trans enough to be a part of this thread. Multiple other people have posted the same at various times. Not being shitty to each other is a much better step to making this a safe space rather than the current focus on what moderators are doing. I am not saying there is no moderation issue, but it just isn't the biggest problem I see currently.
yeah saying things like 'when you were a man' and 'welcome to being a woman' both imply that Jenner hasn't always been a woman. phrasing is important and people don't get a pass to be transphobic and transmisogynist because they are rightly pointing out that society is misogynistic. his writers could have just as easily said "when we thought you were a man", and what even is "welcome to being a woman"? how shitty is that to say? like the first gifs I saw of that clip I thought were funny because they were specifically edited to cut out all the transphobia, and without that it is funny, poignant, relevant
I guess I don't understand how it is at all controversial to say "hey colbert and stewart both have a history of punching down and using transphobic, transmisogynistic jokes and slurs so maybe in this one thread we could not focus on how totally awesome and hilarious they are and post their pictures and clips of their show and stuff". no one is saying you can't like colbert and stewart?
Stewart's writers could have easily wrote "when you were perceived as a man" and "welcome to being seen as a woman" still made the exact same point, and I chalk that up to intellectual laziness not taking into consideration how that difference is actually transmisogynist and transphobic. So that's their fuck up.
But that's where not assuming malice when ignorance makes a lot more sense comes into play. Does that make it better? Well, kinda. It certainly makes it a lot better than the many times Colbert has made t-word jokes over the years with blatant disregard for how people felt about it and then was kind of a shithead about apologizing for it when called on it. Colbert would punch down with malice of forethought, making jokes at the expense of trans people. Stewart, at the very least in this clip, phrased things in some ignorant ways in seemingly in common error for cis people. That doesn't make it okay, but it makes it different.
These things don't need to be overlooked, but they also don't de facto invalidate the rest of what he's saying, which was the point I was making when I said "that's about the size of it". I didn't praise Stewart in any way beyond simply having a fairly accurate read of the situation, which I think he did.
Nobody is invalidating what he's saying. We're saying that 1. He's not out of the woods yet when it comes to being problematic and 2. He has a shit ton of problematic shit to make up for and an apology wouldn't hurt either before trans women start to take him seriously.
and i think it's totally valid to bring that up if someone posts a Jon Stewart video or praises something Jon Stewart says
to be honest, I didn't even realize Jon Stewart was on trans people's shitlist until this very conversation. I knew Stephen Colbert was because of the multitude of t-word jokes he's made over the years, but I didn't know Stewart was or why (is it by extension of being a producer on Colbert's show or is it stuff specific to his show? idk)
which means discussing it was useful and told me things I didn't know before.
Stewart dropped it more sooner than Colbert did
all the same, seeing cis white dudes get more praise and defense in a trans thread makes me unhappy
if you want a recommendation? bring up more people of color, especially queer people of color
There is a real, genuine problem in this community with complacency. I think we're falling into a trap of feeling SO good about how far we've come in terms of inclusion and acceptance that we're not concerned enough about continuing to get better.
it has all sorts of intersectional discussions about tech and culture, and needs a ton of notoriety/money to properly pay all its contributors and keep running
More relevant to this particular discussion: if people are being chased out of the thread for not being trans enough, a lot of people who are questioning of their gender and/or gender queer but don't currently identify as trans (or trans enough) are going to feel unwelcome and unsafe. We have a lot of users who started reading and contributing to these threads as "cis males", became "cis males asking questions about themselves" and now identify as trans or genderqueer.
These discussions are important, and if everyone is respectful to everyone else there's a lot that people can learn from each other's viewpoints.
Nobody is chasing trans people out for not being trans enough. People are being chased out for defending a problematic asshole who doesn't need defending nor does he even post here. Literally any other thread he can be defended and praised in. Here it's just shitty and hurtful.
This is absolutely happening. And if you'd stop your crusade against Tube and look at your own behavior, you might understand why. This thread is hostile, toxic, and actively disenfranchising to people who do not meet a specific narrative, one that /you/ have established time and time again.
I think it absolutely needs a break after this, at the very least.
I will say at times I have felt chased out of here because I don't meet certain people standards or have been left with the feeling my opinion isn't as valid as theirs because I don't live my life to some standard they expect of people who identify as Transgender. But I still think this thread does vastly more good than harm and that putting it on hold isn't the answer, especially over something as stupid as a media personality on a comedy cable show.
I think there's room for a separate thread, soon, about moderation policies and the effect they have on users at various levels of disenfranchisement.
I would appreciate this.
The reason we don't do them too often is because if I want to be able to respond to the majority of questions in a meaningful sense I have to be able to set aside a big block of time to do that. I'll make it a priority next time I have some breathing room.
More relevant to this particular discussion: if people are being chased out of the thread for not being trans enough, a lot of people who are questioning of their gender and/or gender queer but don't currently identify as trans (or trans enough) are going to feel unwelcome and unsafe. We have a lot of users who started reading and contributing to these threads as "cis males", became "cis males asking questions about themselves" and now identify as trans or genderqueer.
These discussions are important, and if everyone is respectful to everyone else there's a lot that people can learn from each other's viewpoints.
Nobody is chasing trans people out for not being trans enough. People are being chased out for defending a problematic asshole who doesn't need defending nor does he even post here. Literally any other thread he can be defended and praised in. Here it's just shitty and hurtful.
This is absolutely happening. And if you'd stop your crusade against Tube and look at your own behavior, you might understand why. This thread is hostile, toxic, and actively disenfranchising to people who do not meet a specific narrative, one that /you/ have established time and time again.
I think it absolutely needs a break after this, at the very least.
More than once I have felt like if I don't toe the line for a certain narative I am simply not trans enough to be a part of this thread. Multiple other people have posted the same at various times. Not being shitty to each other is a much better step to making this a safe space rather than the current focus on what moderators are doing. I am not saying there is no moderation issue, but it just isn't the biggest problem I see currently.
yuuup
I feel the exact same way, which is why I basically only post links rather than say anything that I'm feeling or thinking. I feel super, duper unwelcome here. Anger definitely has its place, but I'm so fucking afraid of it being directed at me like i've seen often I would very much rather just stay silent and then not have my voice heard at all. Fuck, I barely even post about how I'm not-cis because I'm so afraid of being told by people here that I'm not trans-enough and then not having my opinion respected because of it. Which blows, because there are so many people here who are probably in the same boat as me and could use support and someone to talk to.
It is extremely important to educate cisfolkz about trans issues. We also need to make this thread more welcoming of /all/ narratives that fall outside of a traditional binary-gender identity, be they gq, nb, or any flavor of trans.
There's a lot of work to do. But I think we, as a community, can do it.
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Sir FabulousMalevolent Squid GodRegistered Userregular
I am sorry I don't know if this is a good post to make.
As someone who reads this thread, but doesn't make a whole lot of posts, I think maybe my opinion is valuable? As far as a lot of the same people make the same arguments a lot of the time so maybe I'm a fresh viewpoint? I don't know.
The long and short of it is this: I'm not exactly comfortable with my own concept of gender right now. I don't exactly know what the deal with that is. I'm pretty much a baby. I still have a lot of figuring things out to do.
I come to this thread to read about other people's experiences. I come to this thread to find resources about trans and genderqueer people. I come to this thread because I like the people here and I pray for them when something bad happens and feel legitimate joy when something good happens.
But also this thread sometimes gives me mad anxiety. I don't really know what it is. I feel (whether this is valid or not) that my opinion might not matter. I feel that I don't really understand some things. I feel that there are some forum politics I don't really know how to navigate. It's stressful. Sometimes I stop reading the thread.
But I always come back because in the end, I like what's going on here.
To be competely honest, I don't know exactly what point I'm trying to make. I think the gist of it is that I like this thread on some levels, but as someone who could probably benefit a lot from the discussions herein, I often don't feel comfortable.
So... I'm sort of stuck. I really don't want the thread to go away because it's scary to question your identity and not have anyone to go to for support, and I don't think I'm ready to talk to any real-life friends about it. But I also think the thread could be better.
It is extremely important to educate cisfolkz about trans issues. We also need to make this thread more welcoming of /all/ narratives that fall outside of a traditional binary-gender identity, be they gq, nb, or any flavor of trans.
There's a lot of work to do. But I think we, as a community, can do it.
I don't tend to talk about non-binary stuff as much because I am binary
there's other folk around here way more qualified to speak aboot it than I am
I mean, is someone going around squashing (intentional or not) NB dialogue? because I'm clearly missing it
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Sir FabulousMalevolent Squid GodRegistered Userregular
Argh!
For example I wanted to post something about how I live with my parents right now and my mom wants me to cut my hair but I don't want to cut my hair I want to grow it out and then I typed out that post and right afterward I had a talk with her and now I feel like shit.
like to be frank there was a time a long while ago i was going through some self-identity shit wrt to gender
and reading through a thread like this and talking to people in it helped me unpack some of it and where i was coming from on it
but there are also times this thread gets weirdly hostile to specific groups. not just cis people but white people in general and people who have never been homeless or significantly financially disadvantaged, and sometimes that forms a constellation of traits but sometimes not
and it's really alienating and if i had been going through that shit when this thread was having a spate of that hostility it would've been really unfortunate
i'm not trying to lecture on what kind of space this should be but i am observing that at times it seems like there's one kind of narrative that gets clear support and the others get something ranging from middling support to discussions of privilege to outright hostility.
I don't know how quite to phrase it, but this thread can be super duper hostile to a lot of folks. There's an air. It can be really supportive sometimes too! But a lot of times I come in here and there's arguing or yelling at people, and honestly when someone messes up the 'you fucked up' parts go way too far into like, straight bullying.
It is extremely important to educate cisfolkz about trans issues. We also need to make this thread more welcoming of /all/ narratives that fall outside of a traditional binary-gender identity, be they gq, nb, or any flavor of trans.
There's a lot of work to do. But I think we, as a community, can do it.
I don't tend to talk about non-binary stuff as much because I am binary
there's other folk around here way more qualified to speak aboot it than I am
I mean, is someone going around squashing (intentional or not) NB dialogue? because I'm clearly missing it
There are a number of people who fall closer to non-binary lines who do not feel comfortable posting here, yes.
It is extremely important to educate cisfolkz about trans issues. We also need to make this thread more welcoming of /all/ narratives that fall outside of a traditional binary-gender identity, be they gq, nb, or any flavor of trans.
There's a lot of work to do. But I think we, as a community, can do it.
I don't tend to talk about non-binary stuff as much because I am binary
there's other folk around here way more qualified to speak aboot it than I am
I mean, is someone going around squashing (intentional or not) NB dialogue? because I'm clearly missing it
There are a number of people who fall closer to non-binary lines who do not feel comfortable posting here, yes.
Posts
I'm not a cis man. And it's silly to have some list of people that we're not allowed to talk about in any sort of positive light here. Yes, this thread should be a safe place, and I don't think praising someone for trying to do a good thing is making it un-safe or triggering.
Because there weren't enough thread for praising cis men already apparently.
These discussions are important, and if everyone is respectful to everyone else there's a lot that people can learn from each other's viewpoints.
youre welcome to also do that! This thread is a great place for that. I try to do that as much as possible. This isn't an either or situation. You, and everyone else in here can make it better and give more of a voice to those people with less status who are saying the good things by posting them here : )
Nobody is chasing trans people out for not being trans enough. People are being chased out for defending a problematic asshole who doesn't need defending nor does he even post here. Literally any other thread he can be defended and praised in. Here it's just shitty and hurtful.
And second, don't you even think for a minute that you're doing anything to make this thread safe for trans or queer people.
I don't hate Stewart's show, for example, but I sure do get tired of people giving me morality and tolerance lecture over cis white folk
and I tried to present my opinion in the most innocuous way I could think of, too
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I get that folk love their shows
but I'm sure even they recognize they're not above reproach
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I don't think anyone is reacting overly negatively to that statement. It got a simple disagreement from another trans memeber, and that is usually a recipe for spiraling.
The problem is that we're not talking about trans issues or trans stuff in the trans thread. We're talking about yet another rich white cis guy.
This is absolutely happening. And if you'd stop your crusade against Tube and look at your own behavior, you might understand why. This thread is hostile, toxic, and actively disenfranchising to people who do not meet a specific narrative, one that /you/ have established time and time again.
I think it absolutely needs a break after this, at the very least.
I'm not interested in entering into a debate with you about it. I'm acting as a moderator and telling you what the policy is. It isn't appropriate for users to chase other users out of threads, for any reason.
and i think it's totally valid to bring that up if someone posts a Jon Stewart video or praises something Jon Stewart says
to be honest, I didn't even realize Jon Stewart was on trans people's shitlist until this very conversation. I knew Stephen Colbert was because of the multitude of t-word jokes he's made over the years, but I didn't know Stewart was or why (is it by extension of being a producer on Colbert's show or is it stuff specific to his show? idk)
which means discussing it was useful and told me things I didn't know before.
No we are talking about whether or not we can discuss a bit in a show that was directly dealing with trans issues. Trying to reframe it away into some how just talking about Jon isn't going to work for me. A cis white guy talking about trans stuff is still talking about trans stuff. Including dumping on him for fucking up those two lines in a major way. The topic would be long dead If it weren't for the battle over trying to blanket ban a topic the community here is clearly not united in banning.
Stewart dropped it more sooner than Colbert did
all the same, seeing cis white dudes get more praise and defense in a trans thread makes me unhappy
if you want a recommendation? bring up more people of color, especially queer people of color
'cause Stewart/Colbert get brought up a whole lot
here's a handy link if you need to see why I'm uncomfortable
http://yourmomentofhate.tumblr.com
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More than once I have felt like if I don't toe the line for a certain narative I am simply not trans enough to be a part of this thread. Multiple other people have posted the same at various times. Not being shitty to each other is a much better step to making this a safe space rather than the current focus on what moderators are doing. I am not saying there is no moderation issue, but it just isn't the biggest problem I see currently.
TIL
I would appreciate this.
https://modelviewculture.com
it has all sorts of intersectional discussions about tech and culture, and needs a ton of notoriety/money to properly pay all its contributors and keep running
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I will say at times I have felt chased out of here because I don't meet certain people standards or have been left with the feeling my opinion isn't as valid as theirs because I don't live my life to some standard they expect of people who identify as Transgender. But I still think this thread does vastly more good than harm and that putting it on hold isn't the answer, especially over something as stupid as a media personality on a comedy cable show.
Edit : for getting two important words backwards.
offworld.com is run by Leigh Alexander and has many queer and nonwhite contributors
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The reason we don't do them too often is because if I want to be able to respond to the majority of questions in a meaningful sense I have to be able to set aside a big block of time to do that. I'll make it a priority next time I have some breathing room.
Stewart and Colbert are not the only two people talking about trans issues
and they are by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar, not nearly as eloquent, affected, or educated as so many other folk on transness
it makes me happy when folk turn their voices and shares toward supporting folk who definitely need the boost
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yuuup
I feel the exact same way, which is why I basically only post links rather than say anything that I'm feeling or thinking. I feel super, duper unwelcome here. Anger definitely has its place, but I'm so fucking afraid of it being directed at me like i've seen often I would very much rather just stay silent and then not have my voice heard at all. Fuck, I barely even post about how I'm not-cis because I'm so afraid of being told by people here that I'm not trans-enough and then not having my opinion respected because of it. Which blows, because there are so many people here who are probably in the same boat as me and could use support and someone to talk to.
it would also be nice when more of that got stuff got linked to when it was topical
like for example when Laverne Cox talking about Jenner got linked to
that was good!
there needs to be more of that
There's a lot of work to do. But I think we, as a community, can do it.
As someone who reads this thread, but doesn't make a whole lot of posts, I think maybe my opinion is valuable? As far as a lot of the same people make the same arguments a lot of the time so maybe I'm a fresh viewpoint? I don't know.
The long and short of it is this: I'm not exactly comfortable with my own concept of gender right now. I don't exactly know what the deal with that is. I'm pretty much a baby. I still have a lot of figuring things out to do.
I come to this thread to read about other people's experiences. I come to this thread to find resources about trans and genderqueer people. I come to this thread because I like the people here and I pray for them when something bad happens and feel legitimate joy when something good happens.
But also this thread sometimes gives me mad anxiety. I don't really know what it is. I feel (whether this is valid or not) that my opinion might not matter. I feel that I don't really understand some things. I feel that there are some forum politics I don't really know how to navigate. It's stressful. Sometimes I stop reading the thread.
But I always come back because in the end, I like what's going on here.
To be competely honest, I don't know exactly what point I'm trying to make. I think the gist of it is that I like this thread on some levels, but as someone who could probably benefit a lot from the discussions herein, I often don't feel comfortable.
So... I'm sort of stuck. I really don't want the thread to go away because it's scary to question your identity and not have anyone to go to for support, and I don't think I'm ready to talk to any real-life friends about it. But I also think the thread could be better.
I don't know. Sorry. I'm just rambling now.
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I don't tend to talk about non-binary stuff as much because I am binary
there's other folk around here way more qualified to speak aboot it than I am
I mean, is someone going around squashing (intentional or not) NB dialogue? because I'm clearly missing it
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For example I wanted to post something about how I live with my parents right now and my mom wants me to cut my hair but I don't want to cut my hair I want to grow it out and then I typed out that post and right afterward I had a talk with her and now I feel like shit.
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and reading through a thread like this and talking to people in it helped me unpack some of it and where i was coming from on it
but there are also times this thread gets weirdly hostile to specific groups. not just cis people but white people in general and people who have never been homeless or significantly financially disadvantaged, and sometimes that forms a constellation of traits but sometimes not
and it's really alienating and if i had been going through that shit when this thread was having a spate of that hostility it would've been really unfortunate
i'm not trying to lecture on what kind of space this should be but i am observing that at times it seems like there's one kind of narrative that gets clear support and the others get something ranging from middling support to discussions of privilege to outright hostility.
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
There are a number of people who fall closer to non-binary lines who do not feel comfortable posting here, yes.
hi