ROUND THREE: FIGHT B: RESULTS

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  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited October 2006
    If Spider-Man can avoid an attack that, out of nowhere, comes from behind, then why are his enemies always able to beat the shit out of him when he can clearly see them coming and they're, for the most part, nowhere near as agile as Blink?

    robosagogo on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    robosagogo wrote:
    If Spider-Man can avoid an attack that, out of nowhere, comes from behind, then why are his enemies always able to beat the shit out of him when he can clearly see them coming and they're, for the most part, nowhere near as agile as Blink?

    Blink has to teleport in.

    Then attack Spidey. She doesn't hit him instantly after she has teleported, she actually has to move and hit or kick or throw something.

    Spidey can avoid this, because he is easily fast enough, and agile enough, and his spider-sense definitely detects those attacks.

    And there is no reason for Spidey to not be able to detect teleporters. He senses all kinds of danger, including invisible danger. And he has sensed teleporters before.

    Spectre-x on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited October 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    If Spider-Man can avoid an attack that, out of nowhere, comes from behind, then why are his enemies always able to beat the shit out of him when he can clearly see them coming and they're, for the most part, nowhere near as agile as Blink?

    Blink has to teleport in.

    Then attack Spidey. She doesn't hit him instantly after she has teleported, she actually has to move and hit or kick or throw something.

    Spidey can avoid this, because he is easily fast enough, and agile enough, and his spider-sense definitely detects those attacks.

    And there is no reason for Spidey to not be able to detect teleporters. He senses all kinds of danger, including invisible danger. And he has sensed teleporters before.

    She could start her attack before teleporting. Begin a harsh jump kick, teleport, and appear the instant before she connects with his head.

    The reason he shouldn't be able to detect teleporters is because it makes no sense. You can't see teleporters coming, so there's nothing to warn the Spider-Sense of danger. If teleporters CAN be predicted, then it means Spider-Man can read the mind of a teleporter in some subconscious fashion and not only know when he or she is going to port, but where he or she is going to port. That or he can actually predict the future, which makes even less sense because it means there's no free will and I'm pretty sure the constant time-traveling and crap have established that free will does exist in the Marvel Universe.

    robosagogo on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    Blink can attack and teleport at the same time. For example, jump kick through a portal, throw something through a portal, port a car above his head, etc.



    And it is worth keeping in mind that Spidey does get beat on a lot. His Spidey Sense does not = an avoid all attacks free card.

    Scooter on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited October 2006
    And around the same time period as the black costume, he gets beaten up by a man in a costume covered in teflon.

    robosagogo on
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    Man, Sue could just bubble, turn invisible and sip tea all match if she really wanted to. She sort of advances automatically, though it IS a bit of a question whether Kitty can phase through the field (it works for matter, but the field isn't matter...) If she really needs to, she just, like, punts bitches across the arena or mashes their heads in if she's really annoyed. She advances.

    So in the ensuing 3-way... hard to call. Kitty has Lockheed, Blink is hard to track down, Spidey... is weak to fire and can only move as fast as he can swing. Sorry, Spidey, Lockheed makes you toast.

    In the end I think Blink > Kitty though. Blink can seperate her from Lockheed, and then once Kitty HAS to go solid to hit Blink she starts losing body parts.

    Sue and Blink advance.

    SpaceDrake on
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  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    If Spider-Man can avoid an attack that, out of nowhere, comes from behind, then why are his enemies always able to beat the shit out of him when he can clearly see them coming and they're, for the most part, nowhere near as agile as Blink?

    Blink has to teleport in.

    Then attack Spidey. She doesn't hit him instantly after she has teleported, she actually has to move and hit or kick or throw something.

    Spidey can avoid this, because he is easily fast enough, and agile enough, and his spider-sense definitely detects those attacks.

    And there is no reason for Spidey to not be able to detect teleporters. He senses all kinds of danger, including invisible danger. And he has sensed teleporters before.

    Please post a time when Spidey has detected a teleported attack... any time. Go for it.

    Two people were able to produce material that shows his Spider-Sense does not detect teleportation attacks, while you have produced nothing.

    Additionally, Blink is called Blink for a reason... her powers operate at an incredibly fast pace. Hell, she can just open a portal behind spidey and hit him with a teleportation shard... she can do a bunch of stuff to knock Spidey out.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Spidey as much as anyone on this board... but you've got fan-boy all over your face on this one.

    Sentry on
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  • NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    Blink is called Blink because when she teleports theres a distinct *blink* sound...at least that's what I've read. Though she does teleport very fast.

    NinjaSquirrel on
  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    Blink and Shadowcat advance.

    Invisible Woman is powerful and all that but I find her boring, she has great potential but I have never heard of her sneaking around ninja like and then tearing people apart/crushing them with her force fields. If she was more of a badass I'd give her first place but she's too Mrs.Cleaver-ish for my tastes.

    Spidey and I go way back, we have a history you might say. Sadly that isn't enough to convince me to place him anywhere else but 4th place.

    Caveman Paws on
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    Sue is capable of fucking people up when the mood REALLY strikes her.

    In an ideal world I'd like to see Kitty and Blink advance, but really, the main problem is neither one of them can actually hurt Sue I think. I really suspect the shards would just bounce off the field, and I dunno if Kitty can move through a forcefield like that when phased. Matter is one thing, but she isn't going through matter...

    So it isn't so much that Sue breaks everyone's shit (although she could casually screw people up if she needed to), it's that there's no one here who can really remove her.

    SpaceDrake on
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  • laughterkillsmelaughterkillsme Registered User
    edited October 2006
    Invisible Woman is first.
    Sadly, Spider-man is last.

    2nd place is a popularity contest ... we should get pinups of the two characters and have people vote which is hotter. It'd be the same thing at this point.

    laughterkillsme on
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  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    SpaceDrake wrote:
    Sue is capable of fucking people up when the mood REALLY strikes her.

    In an ideal world I'd like to see Kitty and Blink advance, but really, the main problem is neither one of them can actually hurt Sue I think. I really suspect the shards would just bounce off the field, and I dunno if Kitty can move through a forcefield like that when phased. Matter is one thing, but she isn't going through matter...

    So it isn't so much that Sue breaks everyone's shit (although she could casually screw people up if she needed to), it's that there's no one here who can really remove her.

    I think you're right here... as much as I want Kitty and Blink to move on, one of them has to go down. If we are assuming that Kitty can't phase through Sue's fields, then I think she's gotta be the one to go.

    sniff... it's so sad.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • SlagmireSlagmire Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    Sue is definately the clear winner out of this bracket, but I have a strong feeling that Blink would pull out the silver... I mean, Kitty might be able to phase through Sue's invisible barriers, but she can't phase through a portal...

    ...right?

    Also... I'm so, so fucking happy Spider-Man won't be making it past this round (that is, if the readers of this forum aren't retarded like the ones at IGN).

    Slagmire on
  • Psychotic OnePsychotic One The Lord of No Pants Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    edited October 2006
    I don't know I think Kitty could phase under Sue's forcefield and drag her under. And I don't see why she couldn't go through it. Unless Sue makes it air tight there is still "holes" in the field Kitty can phase past.

    Psychotic One on
  • Mai-KeroMai-Kero Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    even if it's air-tight Kitty can probably phase past it. She's only had trouble with one thing, right? It was specifically designed by Xavier to be completely secure from everyone, and even then Kitty got past it with some trouble.

    Mai-Kero on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited October 2006
    Apparently she has trouble getting past highly dense materials like adamantium and, probably, magical barriers since she's vulnerable to magic even when phased.

    robosagogo on
  • Adaemus1sfAdaemus1sf Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    Mai-Kero wrote:
    even if it's air-tight Kitty can probably phase past it. She's only had trouble with one thing, right? It was specifically designed by Xavier to be completely secure from everyone, and even then Kitty got past it with some trouble.
    Kitty has always had trouble with particularly dense stuff (she took a long time to get through the floor and walls in the base in the first Astonishing arc, remember). Further, while Kitty might be capable of getting to Sue, how will she find her? We're still dealing with the invisible woman.

    Adaemus1sf on
  • NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Registered User regular
    edited October 2006
    Everyone is auto-winning for Sue. But we have two people that could easily negate sue's forcefields. Kitty to walk through them, and blink to teleport them. I think it was already suggested and explained that IF Blink can teleport Sue's shields, sue would be stunned. Sue stunned = out.

    I really don't see how sue can defend against kitty or blink. her shields can be bypassed. She might be able to explode blink from the inside, IF blink isn't able to teleport the bubble inside her out. but bubble inside kitty? probably jsut phase through her.

    All she has going for her is being invisible, which ill give you, might be enough for her to make it through, if she hides.

    Nogs on
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  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Nogs wrote:
    Everyone is auto-winning for Sue. But we have two people that could easily negate sue's forcefields. Kitty to walk through them, and blink to teleport them. I think it was already suggested and explained that IF Blink can teleport Sue's shields, sue would be stunned. Sue stunned = out.

    I really don't see how sue can defend against kitty or blink. her shields can be bypassed. She might be able to explode blink from the inside, IF blink isn't able to teleport the bubble inside her out. but bubble inside kitty? probably jsut phase through her.

    All she has going for her is being invisible, which ill give you, might be enough for her to make it through, if she hides.

    Meh... I thought we got through the hiding defense back in round 1... if Kitty can phase through Sue's fields, then I give the match to Kitty and Blink. If not, I give the match to Sue and Blink... the only problem is, I don't know if Kitty can phase through them... anyone have a scenario where she did something similar?

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Yeah, that's the real "if" on this, precisely how do Kitty's powers work vis-a-vis Sue's fields? Can she phase through force/energy shielding?

    Also, it's hard to say if Blink could teleport the field. Again, we aren't dealing with tangible matter; it's entirely possible her teleport darts would just bounce off harmlessly.

    Right now I'm autowinning Sue, but if folks can provide examples of Kitty or Clarice bypassing similar kinds of fields then we can have a bit of a debate about it. (And against Kitty, I think Sue could STILL win. She has to be at least partially tangible to punch someone, and Sue can work with that.)

    ... Pete's so screwed though.

    SpaceDrake on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    How would Blink take out kitty?

    Fencingsax on
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  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited November 2006
    Why would her teleport darts bounce off a forcefield when they don't bounce off anything else? She doesn't need to hit something to teleport it as she can move a large group of people with one port, nor is she only able to teleport solid matter as she's teleported energy blasts before. Even if the fields could deflect the darts without setting them off, she could still teleport the area around the fields and, presumably, the field itself along with it.

    robosagogo on
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Fencingsax wrote:
    How would Blink take out kitty?
    me wrote:
    In the end I think Blink > Kitty though. Blink can seperate (Kitty) from Lockheed, and then once Kitty HAS to go solid (at least with, like, her fists) to hit Blink she starts losing body parts.

    Basically, the instant Kitty has to expose herself to teleportation darts at point blank range, she's in a world of hurt. She'd have to be crazy ninja awesome with de-phasing and re-phasing to avoid having limbs taken off - and yes, I know she is in fact a ninja, but Clarice isn't exactly a slug either.

    SpaceDrake on
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  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited November 2006
    I don't see why she wouldn't be able to teleport Kitty either. Even if she's intangible, she still exists in a very real sense. Teleport the area around her and take her along for the ride, assuming you can't just teleport her directly.

    robosagogo on
  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    edited November 2006
    The problem is that it's very easy for her to move out of any area she's in.

    And I'm of the idea that Sue would stealth KO Blink, as she has to know what she's capable of, and that she needs to see her to do anything of note.

    DJ Eebs on
  • Adaemus1sfAdaemus1sf Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Sentry wrote:
    Nogs wrote:
    Everyone is auto-winning for Sue. But we have two people that could easily negate sue's forcefields. Kitty to walk through them, and blink to teleport them. I think it was already suggested and explained that IF Blink can teleport Sue's shields, sue would be stunned. Sue stunned = out.

    I really don't see how sue can defend against kitty or blink. her shields can be bypassed. She might be able to explode blink from the inside, IF blink isn't able to teleport the bubble inside her out. but bubble inside kitty? probably jsut phase through her.

    All she has going for her is being invisible, which ill give you, might be enough for her to make it through, if she hides.

    Meh... I thought we got through the hiding defense back in round 1... if Kitty can phase through Sue's fields, then I give the match to Kitty and Blink. If not, I give the match to Sue and Blink... the only problem is, I don't know if Kitty can phase through them... anyone have a scenario where she did something similar?
    Didn't someone say that Kitty has phased through force fields before? Anyway, I'm still missing the part where an invisible Sue, in an invisible force bubble, moving around smacking people with walls they can neither see nor hear coming, can be found and attacked by Kitty. It's not hiding, anymore than Kitty being intangible while going after people is hiding.

    Adaemus1sf on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    SpaceDrake wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    How would Blink take out kitty?
    me wrote:
    In the end I think Blink > Kitty though. Blink can seperate (Kitty) from Lockheed, and then once Kitty HAS to go solid (at least with, like, her fists) to hit Blink she starts losing body parts.

    Basically, the instant Kitty has to expose herself to teleportation darts at point blank range, she's in a world of hurt. She'd have to be crazy ninja awesome with de-phasing and re-phasing to avoid having limbs taken off - and yes, I know she is in fact a ninja, but Clarice isn't exactly a slug either.

    This assumes that Kitty doesn't surprise Blink.

    Fencingsax on
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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver A Lannister Always Pays His Debts Hear Me RoarRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    Sentry wrote:

    Please post a time when Spidey has detected a teleported attack... any time. Go for it.

    Two people were able to produce material that shows his Spider-Sense does not detect teleportation attacks, while you have produced nothing.

    Additionally, Blink is called Blink for a reason... her powers operate at an incredibly fast pace. Hell, she can just open a portal behind spidey and hit him with a teleportation shard... she can do a bunch of stuff to knock Spidey out.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Spidey as much as anyone on this board... but you've got fan-boy all over your face on this one.

    Mysterio doesn't count against spider-man.


    He's used the ability to avoid attacks by the entirety of the X-men, who came out of no where. He has used the ability to avoid nightcrawler, a teleporter. He has used the ability to KO Will O' the Wisp who can go intangible.

    It makes sense because it's a type of precognition. You know? Seeing in the future and all that jazz?

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  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited November 2006
    If he can see the future, then why can his Spider-Sense be bypassed with chemicals or the symbiote outfit or, according to Miles Warren, being Spider-Man's friend?

    robosagogo on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA
    edited November 2006
    robosagogo wrote:
    If he can see the future, then why can his Spider-Sense be bypassed with chemicals or the symbiote outfit or, according to Miles Warren, being Spider-Man's friend?

    a. because it's a function of his body and so chemicals can fuck with the way it operates inside his brain obviously you need to watch more house

    b. the symbiote used to be part of him so it uh knows how to avoid it? or maybe it registers as friendly automatically because it seems like part of him? i dunno

    c. who the hell is miles warren

    Servo on
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  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited November 2006
    Enemies immune to the spider-sense

    When deprived of his spider-sense, Spider-Man becomes vulnerable to surveillance and attack and traveling by web-line requires most of his concentration.

    * The Green Goblin developed a gas that can temporarily deaden spider-sense.[issue # needed] This same gas was later used by Roderick Kingsley, in his guise as the villain Hobgoblin.
    * Venom is undetectable to Spider-Man's spider-sense, because the symbiote was mentally linked to him. His descendant symbiotes, including Carnage and Toxin, have inherited this trait.(Amazing Spider-Man #300). In the Secret Wars issue #8, Spider-Man first comes in contact with the symbiote. His spider-sense goes off but is quickly dampened as the symbiote flowed over Spider-Man's body and established the mental link that allowed it to generate webbing and respond to Spider-Man's thoughts. Interestingly, although a clone of Spider-Man, Ben Reilly was able to use his spider-sense to anticipate the attacks of Venom. This may be related to the fact that the clone was created prior to Peter's bond with the symbiote.
    * Mysterio has developed a gas that can neutralize the sense.
    * The clones Kaine and Ben Reilly were also undetectable, and he is undetectable to their spider-senses as well. As they share the same DNA, their spider-senses recognize the others as "self."[issue # needed]
    * Kraven the Hunter once used a jungle scent that dulled Spider-Man's spider-sense.[issue # needed]
    * The Jackal once succeeded in attacking Spider-Man from behind, without triggering his spider-sense. The Jackal explained it to be due to him always being Peter Parker's (Spider-Man's alter ego) friend, meaning that the spider-sense wouldn't regard him as a threat/enemy. The Jackal then took of his mask, revealing himself to be Dr. Miles Warren, one of Peter Parker's teachers. [issue # needed]
    * Daredevil using his "radar-sense" is able to move faster than Spider-Man's "spider-sense" can detect, thus attacking him with ease.

    robosagogo on
  • Adaemus1sfAdaemus1sf Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    If Daredevil can move faster than spider-sense can keep up, I'd imagine a couple of other highly trained metahumans like Blink and Kitty could too, with Kitty's ninja training and Blink's enhanced physiology.

    Adaemus1sf on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited November 2006
    All these methods of taking out Spider-Sense, to me, suggest that it just gives you a hyper-awareness of your surroundings and the ability to detect hostile elements based on a)things that are generally regarded as hostile by Peter and b)cues from persons and nature itself which animals are believed to be able to pick up on.

    Spider-Sense can't pick out symbiotes or clones because they're close enough to Peter to count as Peter to his senses, and if he began to regard himself as a threat he'd freak out all day long.

    The Jackal wasn't picked up because Peter had learned to regard him as a friendly element (if he could see the future, he'd have known he would attack).

    The numerous gases that stop the Spider-Sense merely dull his Spider-Senses/overall alertness.

    robosagogo on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Yea, they all go on a basis of supersenses rather than precognition. Although I'm sure there are other cases of it being written like precognition.


    It's probably one of the vaguest well known powers in comics.

    Scooter on
  • CircularCircular Registered User
    edited November 2006
    Couldn't Kitty just phase and then refuse to participate, and Sue just turn invisible and walk away? So long as Sue's not threatening him, Spidey wouldn't have anything to go on right? He probably doesn't think of Sue Storm as a threat the way he thinks of a gun as one.

    Could the two of them just sit around until either Spidey or Blink beats the other, and then hurriedly mop up the one still standing?

    Circular on
  • Adaemus1sfAdaemus1sf Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Circular wrote:
    Couldn't Kitty just phase and then refuse to participate, and Sue just turn invisible and walk away? So long as Sue's not threatening him, Spidey wouldn't have anything to go on right? He probably doesn't think of Sue Storm as a threat the way he thinks of a gun as one.

    Could the two of them just sit around until either Spidey or Blink beats the other, and then hurriedly mop up the one still standing?
    They could, but we've had a policy of not voting for people based on strategies like this, since it doesn't feel right for a superhero battle.

    Adaemus1sf on
  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    No one "sits out" these fights, just like no one has "insta kill" powers (like moving at the speed of light and beating everyone in the 1st second of the fight *eye roll*). Plus anyone who doesn't see Sue Storm as a threat is so retarded they would be unable to control their bodily functions, forget about fighting super heroes.

    Caveman Paws on
  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    edited November 2006
    I think them using their powers in that manner while actively pursuing other heroes is an acceptable strategy though.

    Sue isn't going to make herself visible to anyone whose powers kind of rely on sight, and Kitty isn't going to take the chance of being punched or forcefielded

    DJ Eebs on
  • FierceDeity666FierceDeity666 Registered User
    edited November 2006
    here's what happens:
    spidey gets knocked out, sue invises and hides. blink and kitty fight their way over to sue by accident, blink throws a spike, kitty phases, sue throws up her shield.

    the spike is contacting kitty's phased form AND sue's shield at the same time.

    what happens next: DIVISION BY ZERO.
    {insert your own wacky shit here, Ideon, monoliths, all the dead people from the past, Monty Python Foot, Dethklok, Knight Rider, Voyager's Relay Dish, Megas XLR, Cthulhu, TIME PIRATES, 599 US DOLLARS, Longcat, whatever.}
    winners:a mass of gorgonzola cheese 30,000 cubic meters in size and a yard tall duck that has 48 eyes, wears a hat with earlaps and communicates only by swearing in latin.

    they are actually Sue and Blink. reality failed its saves REALLY BAD.

    FierceDeity666 on
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