So is it ever OK to kill female characters? Is it always "problematic"? And if so, how is that not problematic in and of itself?
It's not OK when the death of the female character exists solely to motivate a male.
But I don't think that was the case here.
Ros is a perfectly capable character in her own right; she was unwittingly on the wrong side, was confronted about it, and made the heroic call. We've already been shown that Malick knows that Ros is getting friendly with SHIELD, and he's teased Ward killing her (or Coulson) for weeks.
Simmons is stronger than Fitz. She straight up tells him to let HYDRA kill her, and she means it. Simmons didn't crack; Fitz did. And even so, his plan is to go in and bring back Will (and not the monster).
Dunno. Regardless, I'm disappointed in how that plot was resolved.
Yeah it is obvious that if either of the two is going to crack, it's Fitz. And Simmons tried to kill Ward, whereas Fitz didn't go through with it. Ward has his hooks really deep into Fitz, I mean he started crying and begging the moment he realized what was going to happen, whereas Simmons has frozen Ward out. He knows all this! It's obvious which one to torture to make the other talk. Gender is irrelevant in this equation.
ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
Hey guys, you need to spoiler this shit. Spelling out the entirety of a plot point and then just putting the actual character name in spoiler tags is not sufficient, because anybody who is minimally intelligent can read between the lines.
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
Incidentally, I love that Fury Road exists in the MCU.
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
It'd be interesting if Coulson pulls an Angelus.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Regarding the beginning of this episode:
Ward killed Ros to hurt Coulson, but Malick sent Ward to kill Ros because she was now a liability to Hydra instead of a dupe. This is not a case of fridging. Ros was suddenly a very real and very specific threat to Hydra operations that was allied to SHIELD.
Female heroes have a tendency to die to motivate the people around them or because a villain is furthering their plans. Female hero deaths are typically plot development, and have the woman being unable to avoid her death.
Male heroes have a tendency to die heroically saving the day, or at least trying to. Male hero deaths are typically plot resolution, and typically have the man sacrificing himself in an effort to save others.
Not all female hero deaths are fridging or problematic. But a certain kind of female hero death is, even when it's not fridging, especially when it's used frequently.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
It's a few similar but distinct concepts.
- Creating shallow, one-note female supporting cast members to be killed off - often in really needlessly gruesome ways - for a hit of quick, lazy drama. The original Fridge, the one the device is named after, was Green Lantern Kyle Rayner's fridge, where he found the crushed and mangled body of his girlfriend in the second issue of his comic. What was she like as a character? Well, she was blonde, and she had big tits.
- Depowering female hero characters or killing them off in a more permanent way than male heroes. This used to happen a LOT, often for reasons that had dick and balls to do with storytelling and everything to do with power struggles between creators ("I hate Bob, the creator of this popular character, but I'll never get permission to kill the character off, so I'll kill off the character's girlfriend in the big crossover and ruin Bob's carefully-planned story!"). The rest of the time it was out-and-out sexism ("a girl Green Lantern? Not on my watch!"). The book Marvel: The Untold Story is fucking full of fascinating anecdotes like these.
- The exploitative use of sexual violence on female heroes for shock value ("Who Rapes Jubilee?, part 12"), and the fact that it basically never happens to male heroes. Also, while it's not rape per se, comics in the 70s and 80s had weird problems with stories where, like, cosmic godlike entities would randomly make female characters pregnant against their will ("You, Mary Jane, are the lucky mortal that STAR-PIMP has chosen to bear his immortal seed!").
The key element here, the big take-away, is that none of this has anything to do with the internal logic of the work. Even in a terrible, fuck-awful story, it is perfectly logical that a rapist rapes. The question is why someone thought to put a rapist there and whether that was a good call. And the answer to that is necessarily subjective and relies a lot on the level of trust you feel the work has earned.
Do I feel that SHIELD did any of that tonight? Fuck no. Do I think it's worth being aware of? Fuck yes.
I haven't seen the episode yet, and I'm not exactly a feminist scholar, so. . .
I'll be happy as long as she doesn't die in a domestic setting, while taken unawares or unable to fight in back in any kind of effective way, and as long as her death has implications beyond "Phil is really angry at Ward now."
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
One thing that irritated me.
When they were listing off who Ward murdered, they neglected to mention Victoria Hand, when that was the kill that was the big reveal. I guess it could be argued that they never found out if it was Garrett or Ward who did it, but at the least he was an accomplice.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
Phil Coulson isn't just a name, it is a question.
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
- Creating shallow, one-note female supporting cast members to be killed off - often in really needlessly gruesome ways - for a hit of quick, lazy drama. The original Fridge, the one the device is named after, was Green Lantern Kyle Rayner's fridge, where he found the crushed and mangled body of his girlfriend in the second issue of his comic. What was she like as a character? Well, she was blonde, and she had big tits.
- Depowering female hero characters or killing them off in a more permanent way than male heroes. This used to happen a LOT, often for reasons that had dick and balls to do with storytelling and everything to do with power struggles between creators ("I hate Bob, the creator of this popular character, but I'll never get permission to kill the character off, so I'll kill off the character's girlfriend in the big crossover and ruin Bob's carefully-planned story!"). The rest of the time it was out-and-out sexism ("a girl Green Lantern? Not on my watch!"). The book Marvel: The Untold Story is fucking full of fascinating anecdotes like these.
- The exploitative use of sexual violence on female heroes for shock value ("Who Rapes Jubilee?, part 12"), and the fact that it basically never happens to male heroes. Also, while it's not rape per se, comics in the 70s and 80s had weird problems with stories where, like, cosmic godlike entities would randomly make female characters pregnant against their will ("You, Mary Jane, are the lucky mortal that STAR-PIMP has chosen to bear his immortal seed!").
The key element here, the big take-away, is that none of this has anything to do with the internal logic of the work. Even in a terrible, fuck-awful story, it is perfectly logical that a rapist rapes. The question is why someone thought to put a rapist there and whether that was a good call. And the answer to that is necessarily subjective and relies a lot on the level of trust you feel the work has earned.
Do I feel that SHIELD did any of that tonight? Fuck no. Do I think it's worth being aware of? Fuck yes.
Identity Crisis: the story that turned joke villain Dr. Light into rapey raperson because they thought rape would make the story better? What a stupid story that was. :?
Mack was using a shotgun when he rescued Coulson. Sadly, it was too dark to see if it was also an axe.
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jefe414"My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter"Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered Userregular
edited December 2015
Thanks for explaining WTF everyone was talking about regarding 'Fridge' . All I had going through my head was Crystal Skull.
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Wasn't really all that thrilled with the way Coulson outsmarted Ward to find the base. let's look up this other surviving brother that we've barely mentioned? it's OBVIOUS from interviewing the original members that's the key! Way too convenient. Ward was spot on reading people, as usual. Seeing Gemma as changed and super tough, going after Fitz 'You're still scared of me'. Perfect. I am surprised Ward went along with Boothe's request to go through the portal though. There must be some angle I'm not seeing.
Well, of course there has to be some convenience because it's an hour long show. And
I didn't think that the connection was specious because it's painfully obvious that just about everything Ward does is filtered through his twisted idea of family. That's been consistent since the twist in season 1. It's not that Ward sees himself as a hero, but as a protective/vindictive big brother who does what's necessary to serve those he loves while removing those that are a threat to who he views as family.
That's why he doesn't lie to or directly harm those that were part of the original Bus team outside of Coulson and May, whom he feels not only betrayed him, but have clouded the minds of the others (most notably Daisy). He's evil enough to let others hurt them, but to his way of thinking, he always gives them an out. It's not his fault that they don't follow his wisdom and kindness until it's too late.
So, going after the younger brother makes perfect sense because it strikes at who Ward is as a person. The well is where Grant Ward, psychopath, was born. And exploiting it makes all the sense in the world. Really, the interview scene didn't provide new information about Ward (outside of the new detail Fitz provided), but rather it served as a way to spell out Ward's motivation for those that haven't really been paying attention since the middle of season 1. I spent the entire time nodding to what was being said because it was merely a recap of what we already knew.
god damn it what an episode. some really great emotional moments, from that opening to FitzSimmons, just so much good stuff in there.
the Coulson/Ros scenes have always been great, the two have such great chemistry and the opening was one of if not the best of the bunch. they play off each other so well that it hurts all the more that Ros is dead. also, gotta love that Tinder reference, and Phil being clueless on it.
once again Fitz brings in the big guns acting-wise. "I'm not strong enough to live in a world that doesn't have you in it", man that was a great line and the delivery was just utterly amazing.
i really want to see how far they go with this Agents of Stargate thing. how long before Fitz comes up with a crazy theory about the pyramids? "Looks guys I know it sounds crazy but i'm pretty sure they were actually built to store grain... for aliens."
loving what they've done with Mack too. he's been kinda in the background but still ever present. his reluctance to be a part of SHIELD and his need to keep Coulson in check all seem to have been building to him taking charge. start the countdown till he loses an eye. :P
One hell of an episode, got me good with the Fury Road reference, that opening, simultaneously can't wait for the next one, but don't want to wait for the inevitable cliffhanger to resolve either.
Speculation for the next one;
I foresee Fitz and Coulson weeding through the Red Shirts on the team, coming down to the two of them, Ward, Will, and The Entity. How that plays out could go any number of ways.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
THIS FUCKING SHOW
1) Ros opening the ketchup for Phil. Small things like that, and their banter, really made them as a couple. They had amazing chemistry for being in just a handful of scenes together. Really sad to see her go. =(
2) The refrigerator analysis is really shallow. She was obviously her own character and served a ton of purpose in the narrative beyond "motivate Coulson". Characters dying to motivate other characters is a thing - it happens in real life - and in and of itself doesn't denote "friging". Merely identifying a pattern or similarity does not constitute meaningful analysis (someone forward this to TV Tropes).
3) I doubt Coulson will be the one bringing the evil thing back. It will likely either be Ward (after a turn back to good) or, my pick, Fitz (because he would be the most heartbreaking choice).
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
AV Club did not like this episode, also dislikes Ward, also dislikes Mac.
I guess I can see Mac, but how can you dislike Ward? He is the perfect love-to-hate villain. Pulpy, charismatic, and slimy as fuck. Probably the best MCU villain who isn't Fisk or Snuffcarcass.
I'd really love to see a Netflix'd Ward, though.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
AV Club seems to want this to be a different show than it is. Complaining that it left the Coulson-Price romance to go back to secret agencies trying to open portals to other worlds is ignoring what the show is actually about. And comparing it to "similar scenes that have also happened in other shows involving Joss Whedon" is stupid. It's like complaining about every Aaron Sorkin show having people walking and talking.
1) Silence 2) Books must be returned by the last date shown 3) Do not interfere with the nature of causality
there was a lingering moment this week where Ward went beyond 'love-to-hate villain' status and straight into 'he needs to die NOW!' status. however, by the end of the episode i was right back at wanting to see what hijinks he'll get up to next. such an awesome villain and played so well too.
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jefe414"My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter"Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered Userregular
AV Club did not like this episode, also dislikes Ward, also dislikes Mac.
I guess I can see Mac, but how can you dislike Ward? He is the perfect love-to-hate villain. Pulpy, charismatic, and slimy as fuck. Probably the best MCU villain who isn't Fisk or Snuffcarcass.
I'd really love to see a Netflix'd Ward, though.
Is.. .is that a weird pet name for Loki or something?
AV Club did not like this episode, also dislikes Ward, also dislikes Mac.
I guess I can see Mac, but how can you dislike Ward? He is the perfect love-to-hate villain. Pulpy, charismatic, and slimy as fuck. Probably the best MCU villain who isn't Fisk or Snuffcarcass.
I'd really love to see a Netflix'd Ward, though.
Is.. .is that a weird pet name for Loki or something?
It's Purple Man.
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Kilgrave?
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
there was a lingering moment this week where Ward went beyond 'love-to-hate villain' status and straight into 'he needs to die NOW!' status. however, by the end of the episode i was right back at wanting to see what hijinks he'll get up to next. such an awesome villain and played so well too.
AV Club did not like this episode, also dislikes Ward, also dislikes Mac.
I guess I can see Mac, but how can you dislike Ward? He is the perfect love-to-hate villain. Pulpy, charismatic, and slimy as fuck. Probably the best MCU villain who isn't Fisk or Snuffcarcass.
I'd really love to see a Netflix'd Ward, though.
Is.. .is that a weird pet name for Loki or something?
murdercorpse
you mean
autono-wally, erotibot300 on
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kaceypwe stayed bright as lightningwe sang loud as thunderRegistered Userregular
It really hit me while watching this episode that I honestly find this to be one of the most consistently satisfying shows on TV right now.
I'm not really a Mac fan. Seems like his job is to be disagreeable and support whoever is currently making terrible decisions.
Ward is fucking great though and disliking him is basically coming out and saying that you have bad opinions about this show.
Mac is the conservative voice of the show. Incredulous hesitance is his thing. He likes the status quo and is the most resistant to change. Which is slowly changing, as we saw at the end of the episode. He's the necessary grounded foil to all the gung-ho crazy in the show.
And Ward is the best, period. I haven't seen all the Whedon shows, but he's one of my favorite characters from the Whedon brain trust. He's evil and crazy, but also understandable. The way he thinks is consistent and even a bit predictable. And he's just fun to watch because he's legitimately dangerous in this world.
Like others have said, a Netflix Ward would be absolutely awesome/frightening.
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Ending with him having to either be put down or leading him to retire, this resolving the "what, he's alive?" problem for the movies.
Male heroes have a tendency to die heroically saving the day, or at least trying to. Male hero deaths are typically plot resolution, and typically have the man sacrificing himself in an effort to save others.
Not all female hero deaths are fridging or problematic. But a certain kind of female hero death is, even when it's not fridging, especially when it's used frequently.
- Depowering female hero characters or killing them off in a more permanent way than male heroes. This used to happen a LOT, often for reasons that had dick and balls to do with storytelling and everything to do with power struggles between creators ("I hate Bob, the creator of this popular character, but I'll never get permission to kill the character off, so I'll kill off the character's girlfriend in the big crossover and ruin Bob's carefully-planned story!"). The rest of the time it was out-and-out sexism ("a girl Green Lantern? Not on my watch!"). The book Marvel: The Untold Story is fucking full of fascinating anecdotes like these.
- The exploitative use of sexual violence on female heroes for shock value ("Who Rapes Jubilee?, part 12"), and the fact that it basically never happens to male heroes. Also, while it's not rape per se, comics in the 70s and 80s had weird problems with stories where, like, cosmic godlike entities would randomly make female characters pregnant against their will ("You, Mary Jane, are the lucky mortal that STAR-PIMP has chosen to bear his immortal seed!").
The key element here, the big take-away, is that none of this has anything to do with the internal logic of the work. Even in a terrible, fuck-awful story, it is perfectly logical that a rapist rapes. The question is why someone thought to put a rapist there and whether that was a good call. And the answer to that is necessarily subjective and relies a lot on the level of trust you feel the work has earned.
Do I feel that SHIELD did any of that tonight? Fuck no. Do I think it's worth being aware of? Fuck yes.
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That's why he doesn't lie to or directly harm those that were part of the original Bus team outside of Coulson and May, whom he feels not only betrayed him, but have clouded the minds of the others (most notably Daisy). He's evil enough to let others hurt them, but to his way of thinking, he always gives them an out. It's not his fault that they don't follow his wisdom and kindness until it's too late.
So, going after the younger brother makes perfect sense because it strikes at who Ward is as a person. The well is where Grant Ward, psychopath, was born. And exploiting it makes all the sense in the world. Really, the interview scene didn't provide new information about Ward (outside of the new detail Fitz provided), but rather it served as a way to spell out Ward's motivation for those that haven't really been paying attention since the middle of season 1. I spent the entire time nodding to what was being said because it was merely a recap of what we already knew.
once again Fitz brings in the big guns acting-wise. "I'm not strong enough to live in a world that doesn't have you in it", man that was a great line and the delivery was just utterly amazing.
i really want to see how far they go with this Agents of Stargate thing. how long before Fitz comes up with a crazy theory about the pyramids? "Looks guys I know it sounds crazy but i'm pretty sure they were actually built to store grain... for aliens."
loving what they've done with Mack too. he's been kinda in the background but still ever present. his reluctance to be a part of SHIELD and his need to keep Coulson in check all seem to have been building to him taking charge. start the countdown till he loses an eye. :P
Speculation for the next one;
2) The refrigerator analysis is really shallow. She was obviously her own character and served a ton of purpose in the narrative beyond "motivate Coulson". Characters dying to motivate other characters is a thing - it happens in real life - and in and of itself doesn't denote "friging". Merely identifying a pattern or similarity does not constitute meaningful analysis (someone forward this to TV Tropes).
3) I doubt Coulson will be the one bringing the evil thing back. It will likely either be Ward (after a turn back to good) or, my pick, Fitz (because he would be the most heartbreaking choice).
I guess I can see Mac, but how can you dislike Ward? He is the perfect love-to-hate villain. Pulpy, charismatic, and slimy as fuck. Probably the best MCU villain who isn't Fisk or Snuffcarcass.
I'd really love to see a Netflix'd Ward, though.
Is.. .is that a weird pet name for Loki or something?
It's Purple Man.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Ward is fucking great though and disliking him is basically coming out and saying that you have bad opinions about this show.
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Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
That makes more sense.
Also:
1000000% agree with this.
Mood's a thing for cattle and loveplay!
God yes. I love thinking back to the beginning.
"Bland ward. Such a Mary Sue!"
Mac is the conservative voice of the show. Incredulous hesitance is his thing. He likes the status quo and is the most resistant to change. Which is slowly changing, as we saw at the end of the episode. He's the necessary grounded foil to all the gung-ho crazy in the show.
And Ward is the best, period. I haven't seen all the Whedon shows, but he's one of my favorite characters from the Whedon brain trust. He's evil and crazy, but also understandable. The way he thinks is consistent and even a bit predictable. And he's just fun to watch because he's legitimately dangerous in this world.
Like others have said, a Netflix Ward would be absolutely awesome/frightening.
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