I've been pretty disappointed by Austin's thoughts on the supposed grand message of the game, and listening to this spoilercast isn't helping
His starting point seems to be the same as mine, specifically the notion that the game is trying to present ways of reading some of life's mysteries. Where we immediately differ is I don't think Blow is trying to suggest an ultimate answer to everything (and I think it's oddly spurious of Austin to bring up issues such as starvation in that context)
What I took away from the audio logs and videos was simply them being impressions from multiple sources. Musings from various times and places around the world, presentations of what meaning can be in different contexts or what have you. The way it fit for me was that it showed a diverse way of approaching the world, much like you are allowed to do in the game
I could see my view being considered shallow, I suppose. Regardless, I think Austin's view is presumptuous and considering how many of the logs would be so obviously contradictory to one another if suggesting one true solution was the intent, I feel genuinely surprised at how strongly Austin hammers that point
Sometimes I feel like I am the only one not hearing all these pretentious or self-aggrandizing things Blow supposedly says, and so far every time I have been pointed to examples it has been misquotes or what to me just seems like flippant conclusions
Yeah I heard Austin's vague comments about his feelings before actually playing the game, and when I did and start getting a sense of what he was talking about, I just did not get that feeling at all. While there are some parallels between one of the characters and Blow himself, it seems like Austin is attributing a lot of that character's thoughts and opinions to Blow himself, and it just seemed kind of odd.
Speaking of which, where are you guys getting/seeing this spoilercast? Poking around the site I don't see anything...
It's not on Giant Bomb, he did it off-site with some other people.
Also, there's nothing more frustrating than watching a video of someone's challenge mode run and thinking "dammit, I might have actually been able to do that one!"
Man, Day9 really struggled with both the light bridges in the mountain, especially the second one. Neither of them really tripped me up much. I pretty quickly figured out what the second one was going to want me to do, then it was just a matter of execution.
So..
Just finished this (522 +lots +6).
Best guess as to where the 'final puzzle' is, is probably on top of the mountain, or some lost triangle puzzle.
Can't say I enjoyed the final audiologs (or the final movie) that much.
Final area (11 laser area) audiolog discussion:
I was quite enjoying playing through this and listening to the random quotes, albeit trying to filter out the voices of the readers as they came across far too "this is deep".
But then these audiologs explained why we were listening to the random quotes (this is an artificial island designed to present them to the person) and why the voice actors were coming across too strong (they were the first ones to go onto the island and meditated on the passages themselves).
And it's like, by doing this, by providing some sort of narrative context, you've cheapened the game.
First, I don't think it adds anything. All the final audiologs and that final movie could be cut, in my opinion.
If it was proper discussion on what I think the core content of the game is, all the prior audiologs and how the voice actors came to differing perspectives, then it would have been valuable.
But instead they're explaining why the game world is the way it is, or breaking the 4th wall in the case of the final movie (We know you are seeking secrets because you are listening to this hour long dissertation to find a secret so here have this history on secret searching).
And my response is predictably 'Yes, I know your world is artificial' and 'Yes, I like finding secrets'.
It's a statement of what I already know and so not worth anything?
Or at least it doesn't challenge me, so why listen to it?
Second, I have to completely agree with one of the final audiologs in that they state they sounded pompous in all the previous audiologs.
(This was then to give credence to the idea that the final recordings then had value because they are people too, and not some all-wise voices)
And now the question is, with all these readings and re-readings that are suggested in the final audiologs, where the voice actors apparently made the quotes make sense to themselves and derived meaning from these, why sound pompous at all if you're aware of it?
Basically, we are hearing their interpretations of the base material.
And I wonder, if we could have heard the base material directly, played flat and not bounced off the VA's own internal interpretation, would it have had more impact.
It would have made it easier for me to listen to at least.
But then, if the readings were played flat, then these final audiologs would again have no place in the game.
There is no reason to explain the voice of the readings when a voice has been artfully removed as best possible.
I guess I just don't see the point of the final audiologs, and I would've preferred the game without them.
Boy I just could not feel more the opposite. I will say the execution of those cave audio logs wasn't perfect, but without them the island felt way more dead and inhuman to me. Acknowledging that there were actual people with actual opinions on what this place was and should be, and that they didn't always agree on what was important about it, gave the experience the humanity it seemed to be reaching for with the regular audio logs. And that final video is a very good and worthwhile experience. Even if it didn't do anything for you personally, I'm still glad some people were exposed to it and may have taken something extra away from their experience with the game.
It's definitely flawed, but I would have enjoyed the game waaaay less without it. For me, it's not that the game didn't need it, but that it probably could have been executed in a much better way (this is my general feeling on anything Blow does narrative-wise).
Boy I just could not feel more the opposite. I will say the execution of those cave audio logs wasn't perfect, but without them the island felt way more dead and inhuman to me. Acknowledging that there were actual people with actual opinions on what this place was and should be, and that they didn't always agree on what was important about it, gave the experience the humanity it seemed to be reaching for with the regular audio logs. And that final video is a very good and worthwhile experience. Even if it didn't do anything for you personally, I'm still glad some people were exposed to it and may have taken something extra away from their experience with the game.
It's definitely flawed, but I would have enjoyed the game waaaay less without it. For me, it's not that the game didn't need it, but that it probably could have been executed in a much better way (this is my general feeling on anything Blow does narrative-wise).
Re: Final area
This is fair.
I just became a bit nonplussed when 'The Witness' became 'The Witnesses'.
I think my favourite moment in the game has to be when (+1 spoiler)
you find a negative space +1. Possibly meant to be the first of the negative space ones. And either side there are two voice recordings about negative space.
And in that moment, the mechanics of the game, and the audiologs interlink.
And I found that to be great. To be confronted in two modes about my perception of the world.
But that's personal, and really doesn't require a narrative behind it.
I may have missed some recordings, but I still think it could have been interesting if the recordings in the mountain were just all the VAs arguing over interpretations.
Then you start thinking about the lens you've been viewing all these quotes through.
But all I heard was them talking about themselves, and how they didn't want to sound so dramatic all the time. And the experiment.
And I think, if the island truly was the experiment, wouldn't it have been great to just let it stand by itself?
Boy I just could not feel more the opposite. I will say the execution of those cave audio logs wasn't perfect, but without them the island felt way more dead and inhuman to me. Acknowledging that there were actual people with actual opinions on what this place was and should be, and that they didn't always agree on what was important about it, gave the experience the humanity it seemed to be reaching for with the regular audio logs. And that final video is a very good and worthwhile experience. Even if it didn't do anything for you personally, I'm still glad some people were exposed to it and may have taken something extra away from their experience with the game.
It's definitely flawed, but I would have enjoyed the game waaaay less without it. For me, it's not that the game didn't need it, but that it probably could have been executed in a much better way (this is my general feeling on anything Blow does narrative-wise).
Re: Final area
This is fair.
I just became a bit nonplussed when 'The Witness' became 'The Witnesses'.
I think my favourite moment in the game has to be when (+1 spoiler)
you find a negative space +1. Possibly meant to be the first of the negative space ones. And either side there are two voice recordings about negative space.
And in that moment, the mechanics of the game, and the audiologs interlink.
And I found that to be great. To be confronted in two modes about my perception of the world.
But that's personal, and really doesn't require a narrative behind it.
I may have missed some recordings, but I still think it could have been interesting if the recordings in the mountain were just all the VAs arguing over interpretations.
Then you start thinking about the lens you've been viewing all these quotes through.
But all I heard was them talking about themselves, and how they didn't want to sound so dramatic all the time. And the experiment.
And I think, if the island truly was the experiment, wouldn't it have been great to just let it stand by itself?
Yeah, I could probably get behind that. I guess my takeaway is that the specifics of how Blow used the underground cave to contextualize your previous experience were pretty weak, but the overall intent was good, and I'd rather have it be flawed but present than completely absent. That being said, I can definitely see how that stuff could be a total swing and a miss for people (just like a few of the other audio logs were for me).
I liked letting the world speak for itself as I wandered around it. It was a gorgeous setting with lots of little secrets and perspective-based moments scattered around, filled with puzzles.
I didn't listen to any of the audio logs. I played a couple of them at the start when I found them, but I was unable to focus on them for longer than a couple of seconds, and then the one quoting the astronaut annoyed me so much I never played another after that.
So with all of that removed, it was just a fun setting. Eventually I came to the conclusion that these statues weren't people frozen in time due to some sort of calamity like is implied at the start. They're all too perfect. Too right-in-the-middle of something interesting. If it really was just a flash freeze of every living animal on the island then some of the people would be mid-yawn, or leaning against a thing picking their nose, or just in the middle of walking. It's too posed.
I have no idea what that means, but I don't really need to. It made it feel like a theme park once I figured that out. I was plopped down into this place and told to have fun exploring. And then I did.
The first +1 puzzle I found was the one on the mountain, because i'm not really one who stumbles upon things like that. After that though, I found them everywhere as was the intention. I think my favorite one was the one where you manipulate the foliage to create a line around the empty space of this big tree. I also really liked hearing in the Giant Bomb video with Blow about how they had to work hard to make sure there weren't any circles in the game that weren't related to a puzzle, that's how important the visual language of them was. A ton of thought went into everything about this game's design.
Kind of wish I could wipe my memory of it and start over. I don't think i'll go back to it at all, knowing that there's no "reward" for finding everything. I already loved wandering around the place, forcing myself to continue doing so just to find the last few hidden things would only spoil it.
I liked letting the world speak for itself as I wandered around it. It was a gorgeous setting with lots of little secrets and perspective-based moments scattered around, filled with puzzles.
I didn't listen to any of the audio logs. I played a couple of them at the start when I found them, but I was unable to focus on them for longer than a couple of seconds, and then the one quoting the astronaut annoyed me so much I never played another after that.
So with all of that removed, it was just a fun setting. Eventually I came to the conclusion that these statues weren't people frozen in time due to some sort of calamity like is implied at the start. They're all too perfect. Too right-in-the-middle of something interesting. If it really was just a flash freeze of every living animal on the island then some of the people would be mid-yawn, or leaning against a thing picking their nose, or just in the middle of walking. It's too posed.
I have no idea what that means, but I don't really need to. It made it feel like a theme park once I figured that out. I was plopped down into this place and told to have fun exploring. And then I did.
The first +1 puzzle I found was the one on the mountain, because i'm not really one who stumbles upon things like that. After that though, I found them everywhere as was the intention. I think my favorite one was the one where you manipulate the foliage to create a line around the empty space of this big tree. I also really liked hearing in the Giant Bomb video with Blow about how they had to work hard to make sure there weren't any circles in the game that weren't related to a puzzle, that's how important the visual language of them was. A ton of thought went into everything about this game's design.
Kind of wish I could wipe my memory of it and start over. I don't think i'll go back to it at all, knowing that there's no "reward" for finding everything. I already loved wandering around the place, forcing myself to continue doing so just to find the last few hidden things would only spoil it.
I'm thinking that panel at the top of the mountain is the one I missed..
+1s
I did wonder how much thought they gave to the circles.
I mean, in town you have hexagonal pulleys, instead of circular ones.
Now that.. that probably won't work depending on the clearance around the corners.
I can also see them spending a lot of time getting the sight lines right.
You don't want to have all the starting points be easily visible everywhere, and you don't want the start points matching up with other paths accidentally.
Also, anyone know what that dog statue near the starting castle is about?
Man, he is really obsessed with the 3 starting points on the one pillar. I know someone else here made a big deal about them too. I don't quite get why this particular instance of a puzzle with multiple starting point options tripped people up so much.
I want to talk about the candle video, because it'll sum up my feelings about certain things.
So, my brain pretty much switches off when it encounters things that it classifies as "arty-farty bullshit". By all means people should make whatever art they want, but a lot of things just aren't for me. And that's fine. But forcing me to experience these things isn't good for anyone. I'll hate it and miss the intended point, or any other unintended point, then complain about it being stupid. Better to just avoid the situation entirely.
This brings us to the candle video. I had found two others prior to this. One was a BBC video that was kind of interesting, and the other was a lecture by Richard Feynman who is always fascinating even though I had seen this particular lecture and interview before. So when I find this third one I figure sure, I'll watch it all the way through.
A guy lights a candle, laboriously walks in silence across a courtyard, the candle goes out halfway, he laboriously walks back and lights it again. Repeat for ten. goddamn. minutes. Finally he gets to the other side, places it down, and falls over dead. Cut to a shot of the inside of a church, which is where I discover that you can scrub through the videos manually.
I don't care about any allegory, or the author's intended message, or interpretations of symbolism, any of that. Again, my brain has shut off at this point. All it is doing is screaming "JUST WALK OVER THERE THEN LIGHT THE CANDLE, ASSHOLE!"
It's not for me, and its inclusion took me out of the experience for a while because of how mad it made me.
The next video I found I heard some lady talking about something I can't even remember now, rolled my eyes after about ten seconds then scrubbed through it looking for circles. I didn't even give the audio on the moon video that much of a chance.
So yeah, the contents of the audio logs might be super neat and fill in some interesting back story, but I'm incapable of even getting to it much less appreciating it.
I want to talk about the candle video, because it'll sum up my feelings about certain things.
So, my brain pretty much switches off when it encounters things that it classifies as "arty-farty bullshit". By all means people should make whatever art they want, but a lot of things just aren't for me. And that's fine. But forcing me to experience these things isn't good for anyone. I'll hate it and miss the intended point, or any other unintended point, then complain about it being stupid. Better to just avoid the situation entirely.
This brings us to the candle video. I had found two others prior to this. One was a BBC video that was kind of interesting, and the other was a lecture by Richard Feynman who is always fascinating even though I had seen this particular lecture and interview before. So when I find this third one I figure sure, I'll watch it all the way through.
A guy lights a candle, laboriously walks in silence across a courtyard, the candle goes out halfway, he laboriously walks back and lights it again. Repeat for ten. goddamn. minutes. Finally he gets to the other side, places it down, and falls over dead. Cut to a shot of the inside of a church, which is where I discover that you can scrub through the videos manually.
I don't care about any allegory, or the author's intended message, or interpretations of symbolism, any of that. Again, my brain has shut off at this point. All it is doing is screaming "JUST WALK OVER THERE THEN LIGHT THE CANDLE, ASSHOLE!"
It's not for me, and its inclusion took me out of the experience for a while because of how mad it made me.
The next video I found I heard some lady talking about something I can't even remember now, rolled my eyes after about ten seconds then scrubbed through it looking for circles. I didn't even give the audio on the moon video that much of a chance.
So yeah, the contents of the audio logs might be super neat and fill in some interesting back story, but I'm incapable of even getting to it much less appreciating it.
The moon video is the candle video I think.
Last video spoilers:
And you're going to hate the last video, if you get to that.
You're forced to sit through the entire thing. All 50 minutes of it.
But at least it's a somewhat interesting discussion, instead of a guy carrying a candle?
It's about a dog.
Discrider, do you want some spoilers that might help find that last puzzle?
Yeah, that'd be good.
I'm currently stumbling around the island blinded by my own knowledge and unable to find what I haven't discovered because of it.
I think it's interesting that you guys phrase it as being 'forced' to watch those videos, since you only have to watch them if you want to finish a completely arbitrary task that does nothing but make a number go up by one. The candle video was actually the first one I unlocked, and to me it pretty well sums up the entirety of the environmental and video 'puzzles'. Once the candle goes out and he goes back to do it again, it becomes clear that this is some kind of ritual or obsession, and it's impossible to imagine how it could have any meaning or value other than whatever meaning this guy has placed on the act itself. That pretty well sums up the puzzles within the videos as well - they don't lead to new puzzles, new narrative, new areas, nothing. They don't have any value other than what you as the player decide they do. You're only 'forced' to go through them because of the value you've placed on the reward.
This isn't really a new concept (which I think Blow acknowledges with the Psalm video) and again, Blow may not have expressed himself in the best way possible. And I'm not at all trying to sound judge-y, like it's good or bad to want to get that stuff. It's just an interesting view for me, since I have absolutely none of that motivation to see everything a game has or check all the boxes or things like that.
It's about a dog.
Discrider, do you want some spoilers that might help find that last puzzle?
Yeah, that'd be good.
I'm currently stumbling around the island blinded by my own knowledge and unable to find what I haven't discovered because of it.
You may, of course, know most of this stuff:
-Look for triangular orange leaves on the lake, those are unsolved scattered triangle puzzles (the brown ones are solved)
-The elevator in the caves has three panel puzzles, all three count
-Did you solve all the colour puzzles in the village? The ones activated in the sound studio underground?
-MY last puzzle was the hard one at the end of the dye marshes, the bonus one with two environmental puzzles to the sides of it.
I think it's interesting that you guys phrase it as being 'forced' to watch those videos, since you only have to watch them if you want to finish a completely arbitrary task that does nothing but make a number go up by one. The candle video was actually the first one I unlocked, and to me it pretty well sums up the entirety of the environmental and video 'puzzles'. Once the candle goes out and he goes back to do it again, it becomes clear that this is some kind of ritual or obsession, and it's impossible to imagine how it could have any meaning or value other than whatever meaning this guy has placed on the act itself. That pretty well sums up the puzzles within the videos as well - they don't lead to new puzzles, new narrative, new areas, nothing. They don't have any value other than what you as the player decide they do. You're only 'forced' to go through them because of the value you've placed on the reward.
This isn't really a new concept (which I think Blow acknowledges with the Psalm video) and again, Blow may not have expressed himself in the best way possible. And I'm not at all trying to sound judge-y, like it's good or bad to want to get that stuff. It's just an interesting view for me, since I have absolutely none of that motivation to see everything a game has or check all the boxes or things like that.
I only used that word because for me, I want to experience all the content in the game.
I didn't even realize that there would be line puzzles attached to the videos, I thought they were just there for flavor. So because the first two I watched were somewhat interesting I figured i'd give that one a try, and it became interminable. If I had known about the ability to move manually through the videos' timelines I would have done that on the candle video after the first 15 seconds.
Maybe forced is the wrong word. Tricked is kind of better, though I don't really like the negative connotation it brings. I thought it would be something else than it was, and after I sat through it I learned my lesson and ignored the other stuff that would be along those same lines.
I want to talk about the candle video, because it'll sum up my feelings about certain things.
So, my brain pretty much switches off when it encounters things that it classifies as "arty-farty bullshit". By all means people should make whatever art they want, but a lot of things just aren't for me. And that's fine. But forcing me to experience these things isn't good for anyone. I'll hate it and miss the intended point, or any other unintended point, then complain about it being stupid. Better to just avoid the situation entirely.
This brings us to the candle video. I had found two others prior to this. One was a BBC video that was kind of interesting, and the other was a lecture by Richard Feynman who is always fascinating even though I had seen this particular lecture and interview before. So when I find this third one I figure sure, I'll watch it all the way through.
A guy lights a candle, laboriously walks in silence across a courtyard, the candle goes out halfway, he laboriously walks back and lights it again. Repeat for ten. goddamn. minutes. Finally he gets to the other side, places it down, and falls over dead. Cut to a shot of the inside of a church, which is where I discover that you can scrub through the videos manually.
I don't care about any allegory, or the author's intended message, or interpretations of symbolism, any of that. Again, my brain has shut off at this point. All it is doing is screaming "JUST WALK OVER THERE THEN LIGHT THE CANDLE, ASSHOLE!"
It's not for me, and its inclusion took me out of the experience for a while because of how mad it made me.
The next video I found I heard some lady talking about something I can't even remember now, rolled my eyes after about ten seconds then scrubbed through it looking for circles. I didn't even give the audio on the moon video that much of a chance.
So yeah, the contents of the audio logs might be super neat and fill in some interesting back story, but I'm incapable of even getting to it much less appreciating it.
The moon video is the candle video I think.
Last video spoilers:
And you're going to hate the last video, if you get to that.
You're forced to sit through the entire thing. All 50 minutes of it.
But at least it's a somewhat interesting discussion, instead of a guy carrying a candle?
Moon video is the last one, and yeah it was one of the last things I did in the game. I started it then left and listened to a podcast while I made and ate lunch.
It's about a dog.
Discrider, do you want some spoilers that might help find that last puzzle?
Yeah, that'd be good.
I'm currently stumbling around the island blinded by my own knowledge and unable to find what I haven't discovered because of it.
You may, of course, know most of this stuff:
-Look for triangular orange leaves on the lake, those are unsolved scattered triangle puzzles (the brown ones are solved)
-The elevator in the caves has three panel puzzles, all three count
-Did you solve all the colour puzzles in the village? The ones activated in the sound studio underground?
-MY last puzzle was the hard one at the end of the dye marshes, the bonus one with two environmental puzzles to the sides of it.
I think it's interesting that you guys phrase it as being 'forced' to watch those videos, since you only have to watch them if you want to finish a completely arbitrary task that does nothing but make a number go up by one. The candle video was actually the first one I unlocked, and to me it pretty well sums up the entirety of the environmental and video 'puzzles'. Once the candle goes out and he goes back to do it again, it becomes clear that this is some kind of ritual or obsession, and it's impossible to imagine how it could have any meaning or value other than whatever meaning this guy has placed on the act itself. That pretty well sums up the puzzles within the videos as well - they don't lead to new puzzles, new narrative, new areas, nothing. They don't have any value other than what you as the player decide they do. You're only 'forced' to go through them because of the value you've placed on the reward.
This isn't really a new concept (which I think Blow acknowledges with the Psalm video) and again, Blow may not have expressed himself in the best way possible. And I'm not at all trying to sound judge-y, like it's good or bad to want to get that stuff. It's just an interesting view for me, since I have absolutely none of that motivation to see everything a game has or check all the boxes or things like that.
I only used that word because for me, I want to experience all the content in the game.
I didn't even realize that there would be line puzzles attached to the videos, I thought they were just there for flavor. So because the first two I watched were somewhat interesting I figured i'd give that one a try, and it became interminable. If I had known about the ability to move manually through the videos' timelines I would have done that on the candle video after the first 15 seconds.
Maybe forced is the wrong word. Tricked is kind of better, though I don't really like the negative connotation it brings. I thought it would be something else than it was, and after I sat through it I learned my lesson and ignored the other stuff that would be along those same lines.
I want to talk about the candle video, because it'll sum up my feelings about certain things.
So, my brain pretty much switches off when it encounters things that it classifies as "arty-farty bullshit". By all means people should make whatever art they want, but a lot of things just aren't for me. And that's fine. But forcing me to experience these things isn't good for anyone. I'll hate it and miss the intended point, or any other unintended point, then complain about it being stupid. Better to just avoid the situation entirely.
This brings us to the candle video. I had found two others prior to this. One was a BBC video that was kind of interesting, and the other was a lecture by Richard Feynman who is always fascinating even though I had seen this particular lecture and interview before. So when I find this third one I figure sure, I'll watch it all the way through.
A guy lights a candle, laboriously walks in silence across a courtyard, the candle goes out halfway, he laboriously walks back and lights it again. Repeat for ten. goddamn. minutes. Finally he gets to the other side, places it down, and falls over dead. Cut to a shot of the inside of a church, which is where I discover that you can scrub through the videos manually.
I don't care about any allegory, or the author's intended message, or interpretations of symbolism, any of that. Again, my brain has shut off at this point. All it is doing is screaming "JUST WALK OVER THERE THEN LIGHT THE CANDLE, ASSHOLE!"
It's not for me, and its inclusion took me out of the experience for a while because of how mad it made me.
The next video I found I heard some lady talking about something I can't even remember now, rolled my eyes after about ten seconds then scrubbed through it looking for circles. I didn't even give the audio on the moon video that much of a chance.
So yeah, the contents of the audio logs might be super neat and fill in some interesting back story, but I'm incapable of even getting to it much less appreciating it.
The moon video is the candle video I think.
Last video spoilers:
And you're going to hate the last video, if you get to that.
You're forced to sit through the entire thing. All 50 minutes of it.
But at least it's a somewhat interesting discussion, instead of a guy carrying a candle?
Moon video is the last one, and yeah it was one of the last things I did in the game. I started it then left and listened to a podcast while I made and ate lunch.
I'm not sure it's particularly deep, clever, or interesting to put really boring "content" into a game and then say: "You don't have to do the boring content! It's just your completionist gamer urges driving you to do it! Isn't that a cool observation?"
It's about a dog.
Discrider, do you want some spoilers that might help find that last puzzle?
Yeah, that'd be good.
I'm currently stumbling around the island blinded by my own knowledge and unable to find what I haven't discovered because of it.
You may, of course, know most of this stuff:
-Look for triangular orange leaves on the lake, those are unsolved scattered triangle puzzles (the brown ones are solved)
-The elevator in the caves has three panel puzzles, all three count
-Did you solve all the colour puzzles in the village? The ones activated in the sound studio underground?
-MY last puzzle was the hard one at the end of the dye marshes, the bonus one with two environmental puzzles to the sides of it.
The dye marshes have an end?
And a bonus panel?
Well, as in, a panel you don't need to solve to activate the laser. It's in a remote basement, on the purple end of the four colour rotating bridge.
It's about a dog.
Discrider, do you want some spoilers that might help find that last puzzle?
Yeah, that'd be good.
I'm currently stumbling around the island blinded by my own knowledge and unable to find what I haven't discovered because of it.
You may, of course, know most of this stuff:
-Look for triangular orange leaves on the lake, those are unsolved scattered triangle puzzles (the brown ones are solved)
-The elevator in the caves has three panel puzzles, all three count
-Did you solve all the colour puzzles in the village? The ones activated in the sound studio underground?
-MY last puzzle was the hard one at the end of the dye marshes, the bonus one with two environmental puzzles to the sides of it.
I have solved all these by the looks of it.
Additionally I have solved:
The gate puzzle: If you get the +1 before you switch it off then you could skip this.
In the factory: The additional puzzle for the stairs and the one in the overseers box that comes on after you solve all the rest.
In the starting area, right after the tunnel but before the gate.
You can also only wind up only doing half of the castle area, so you might have missed four on the ground + a final one in the tower.
Also, make damn sure you got all then finagle pieces. I had apparently missed one and didn't see it in the pond. If I hadn't stumbled across it, I would have never found out I was missing it.
I think it's interesting that you guys phrase it as being 'forced' to watch those videos, since you only have to watch them if you want to finish a completely arbitrary task that does nothing but make a number go up by one. The candle video was actually the first one I unlocked, and to me it pretty well sums up the entirety of the environmental and video 'puzzles'. Once the candle goes out and he goes back to do it again, it becomes clear that this is some kind of ritual or obsession, and it's impossible to imagine how it could have any meaning or value other than whatever meaning this guy has placed on the act itself. That pretty well sums up the puzzles within the videos as well - they don't lead to new puzzles, new narrative, new areas, nothing. They don't have any value other than what you as the player decide they do. You're only 'forced' to go through them because of the value you've placed on the reward.
This isn't really a new concept (which I think Blow acknowledges with the Psalm video) and again, Blow may not have expressed himself in the best way possible. And I'm not at all trying to sound judge-y, like it's good or bad to want to get that stuff. It's just an interesting view for me, since I have absolutely none of that motivation to see everything a game has or check all the boxes or things like that.
I only used that word because for me, I want to experience all the content in the game.
I didn't even realize that there would be line puzzles attached to the videos, I thought they were just there for flavor. So because the first two I watched were somewhat interesting I figured i'd give that one a try, and it became interminable. If I had known about the ability to move manually through the videos' timelines I would have done that on the candle video after the first 15 seconds.
Maybe forced is the wrong word. Tricked is kind of better, though I don't really like the negative connotation it brings. I thought it would be something else than it was, and after I sat through it I learned my lesson and ignored the other stuff that would be along those same lines.
I want to talk about the candle video, because it'll sum up my feelings about certain things.
So, my brain pretty much switches off when it encounters things that it classifies as "arty-farty bullshit". By all means people should make whatever art they want, but a lot of things just aren't for me. And that's fine. But forcing me to experience these things isn't good for anyone. I'll hate it and miss the intended point, or any other unintended point, then complain about it being stupid. Better to just avoid the situation entirely.
This brings us to the candle video. I had found two others prior to this. One was a BBC video that was kind of interesting, and the other was a lecture by Richard Feynman who is always fascinating even though I had seen this particular lecture and interview before. So when I find this third one I figure sure, I'll watch it all the way through.
A guy lights a candle, laboriously walks in silence across a courtyard, the candle goes out halfway, he laboriously walks back and lights it again. Repeat for ten. goddamn. minutes. Finally he gets to the other side, places it down, and falls over dead. Cut to a shot of the inside of a church, which is where I discover that you can scrub through the videos manually.
I don't care about any allegory, or the author's intended message, or interpretations of symbolism, any of that. Again, my brain has shut off at this point. All it is doing is screaming "JUST WALK OVER THERE THEN LIGHT THE CANDLE, ASSHOLE!"
It's not for me, and its inclusion took me out of the experience for a while because of how mad it made me.
The next video I found I heard some lady talking about something I can't even remember now, rolled my eyes after about ten seconds then scrubbed through it looking for circles. I didn't even give the audio on the moon video that much of a chance.
So yeah, the contents of the audio logs might be super neat and fill in some interesting back story, but I'm incapable of even getting to it much less appreciating it.
The moon video is the candle video I think.
Last video spoilers:
And you're going to hate the last video, if you get to that.
You're forced to sit through the entire thing. All 50 minutes of it.
But at least it's a somewhat interesting discussion, instead of a guy carrying a candle?
Moon video is the last one, and yeah it was one of the last things I did in the game. I started it then left and listened to a podcast while I made and ate lunch.
I'm not sure it's particularly deep, clever, or interesting to put really boring "content" into a game and then say: "You don't have to do the boring content! It's just your completionist gamer urges driving you to do it! Isn't that a cool observation?"
Do you think he thought it was boring content? All of the videos had some connection to the themes of the game, so I imagine he thought they were interesting and worthwhile and wanted to give players who might not otherwise be exposed to some of those things the opportunity to experience them in relation to the game. Nobody's saying it's deep or clever (Blow might think so, but whatever whatever death of the author). Personally, I do think it's interesting that a game's creator laid his motivations and inspirations out so directly like that. Again, maybe not executed the best way, and I wouldn't want every game to do things this way, but it's still an interesting thing to do in a game and I'm glad he did it. There really isn't anything more to it than that. And you can deride it all you want, the fact is that you don't have to do it, and it is just your completionist urge. So at worst it's something that can be fully ignored.
Anyway, that might have come off a little stronger than I wanted. I totally get why that stuff didn't work for a lot of people, especially if you came in already knowing about Blow's personality/reputation. That dude just doesn't do himself any favors in letting players decide for themselves what value his games have. But I'm still glad he's doing what he's doing game-wise, despite his best efforts.
Regardless of what dumb stuff I think is in there he made one hell of a good puzzle game. Just like Braid was a fun puzzle platformer even ignoring the weird additional stuff.
I think it's interesting that you guys phrase it as being 'forced' to watch those videos, since you only have to watch them if you want to finish a completely arbitrary task that does nothing but make a number go up by one. The candle video was actually the first one I unlocked, and to me it pretty well sums up the entirety of the environmental and video 'puzzles'. Once the candle goes out and he goes back to do it again, it becomes clear that this is some kind of ritual or obsession, and it's impossible to imagine how it could have any meaning or value other than whatever meaning this guy has placed on the act itself. That pretty well sums up the puzzles within the videos as well - they don't lead to new puzzles, new narrative, new areas, nothing. They don't have any value other than what you as the player decide they do. You're only 'forced' to go through them because of the value you've placed on the reward.
This isn't really a new concept (which I think Blow acknowledges with the Psalm video) and again, Blow may not have expressed himself in the best way possible. And I'm not at all trying to sound judge-y, like it's good or bad to want to get that stuff. It's just an interesting view for me, since I have absolutely none of that motivation to see everything a game has or check all the boxes or things like that.
I only used that word because for me, I want to experience all the content in the game.
I didn't even realize that there would be line puzzles attached to the videos, I thought they were just there for flavor. So because the first two I watched were somewhat interesting I figured i'd give that one a try, and it became interminable. If I had known about the ability to move manually through the videos' timelines I would have done that on the candle video after the first 15 seconds.
Maybe forced is the wrong word. Tricked is kind of better, though I don't really like the negative connotation it brings. I thought it would be something else than it was, and after I sat through it I learned my lesson and ignored the other stuff that would be along those same lines.
I want to talk about the candle video, because it'll sum up my feelings about certain things.
So, my brain pretty much switches off when it encounters things that it classifies as "arty-farty bullshit". By all means people should make whatever art they want, but a lot of things just aren't for me. And that's fine. But forcing me to experience these things isn't good for anyone. I'll hate it and miss the intended point, or any other unintended point, then complain about it being stupid. Better to just avoid the situation entirely.
This brings us to the candle video. I had found two others prior to this. One was a BBC video that was kind of interesting, and the other was a lecture by Richard Feynman who is always fascinating even though I had seen this particular lecture and interview before. So when I find this third one I figure sure, I'll watch it all the way through.
A guy lights a candle, laboriously walks in silence across a courtyard, the candle goes out halfway, he laboriously walks back and lights it again. Repeat for ten. goddamn. minutes. Finally he gets to the other side, places it down, and falls over dead. Cut to a shot of the inside of a church, which is where I discover that you can scrub through the videos manually.
I don't care about any allegory, or the author's intended message, or interpretations of symbolism, any of that. Again, my brain has shut off at this point. All it is doing is screaming "JUST WALK OVER THERE THEN LIGHT THE CANDLE, ASSHOLE!"
It's not for me, and its inclusion took me out of the experience for a while because of how mad it made me.
The next video I found I heard some lady talking about something I can't even remember now, rolled my eyes after about ten seconds then scrubbed through it looking for circles. I didn't even give the audio on the moon video that much of a chance.
So yeah, the contents of the audio logs might be super neat and fill in some interesting back story, but I'm incapable of even getting to it much less appreciating it.
The moon video is the candle video I think.
Last video spoilers:
And you're going to hate the last video, if you get to that.
You're forced to sit through the entire thing. All 50 minutes of it.
But at least it's a somewhat interesting discussion, instead of a guy carrying a candle?
Moon video is the last one, and yeah it was one of the last things I did in the game. I started it then left and listened to a podcast while I made and ate lunch.
I'm not sure it's particularly deep, clever, or interesting to put really boring "content" into a game and then say: "You don't have to do the boring content! It's just your completionist gamer urges driving you to do it! Isn't that a cool observation?"
Do you think he thought it was boring content? All of the videos had some connection to the themes of the game, so I imagine he thought they were interesting and worthwhile and wanted to give players who might not otherwise be exposed to some of those things the opportunity to experience them in relation to the game. Nobody's saying it's deep or clever (Blow might think so, but whatever whatever death of the author). Personally, I do think it's interesting that a game's creator laid his motivations and inspirations out so directly like that. Again, maybe not executed the best way, and I wouldn't want every game to do things this way, but it's still an interesting thing to do in a game and I'm glad he did it. There really isn't anything more to it than that. And you can deride it all you want, the fact is that you don't have to do it, and it is just your completionist urge. So at worst it's something that can be fully ignored.
So... It looks like the Glass Elevator counts as a puzzle solved. So I'm now at 523 :S
FYI @Mayday your 523rd was my 521st, which probably would've been my 523rd if this wasn't my second run through
Because that's how I thought you reactivated the gate. And so 522 and 523 were reactivating the gate, which I didn't need to do to get the hotel, and the glass elevator, which I didn't want to do because it resets you completely.
Did Day9 really do the challenge in around an hour of attempts? Bastard.
?
I got this like second or third try?
At an hour I completed it within the sound-track rather than in the weird silence after the second track?
Is this really incongruous to how everyone else experiences the challenge?
Nope, everyone experiences things in games exactly the same. Nobody else had any problem with what is basically the final challenge in the game.
Anyway, I would say it took me a little over an hour, but I got a suuuper friendly run, and was basically having a heart attack the entire time I was doing the column puzzles (I hadn't gotten that far, didn't know they were even there, and the Mountain King was like 3/4 over). It was super intense and if I hadn't gotten it on that run I'm not sure if I would have had the heart to keep going with it.
Posts
It's not on Giant Bomb, he did it off-site with some other people.
Just finished this (522 +lots +6).
Best guess as to where the 'final puzzle' is, is probably on top of the mountain, or some lost triangle puzzle.
Can't say I enjoyed the final audiologs (or the final movie) that much.
Final area (11 laser area) audiolog discussion:
But then these audiologs explained why we were listening to the random quotes (this is an artificial island designed to present them to the person) and why the voice actors were coming across too strong (they were the first ones to go onto the island and meditated on the passages themselves).
And it's like, by doing this, by providing some sort of narrative context, you've cheapened the game.
First, I don't think it adds anything. All the final audiologs and that final movie could be cut, in my opinion.
If it was proper discussion on what I think the core content of the game is, all the prior audiologs and how the voice actors came to differing perspectives, then it would have been valuable.
But instead they're explaining why the game world is the way it is, or breaking the 4th wall in the case of the final movie (We know you are seeking secrets because you are listening to this hour long dissertation to find a secret so here have this history on secret searching).
And my response is predictably 'Yes, I know your world is artificial' and 'Yes, I like finding secrets'.
It's a statement of what I already know and so not worth anything?
Or at least it doesn't challenge me, so why listen to it?
Second, I have to completely agree with one of the final audiologs in that they state they sounded pompous in all the previous audiologs.
(This was then to give credence to the idea that the final recordings then had value because they are people too, and not some all-wise voices)
And now the question is, with all these readings and re-readings that are suggested in the final audiologs, where the voice actors apparently made the quotes make sense to themselves and derived meaning from these, why sound pompous at all if you're aware of it?
Basically, we are hearing their interpretations of the base material.
And I wonder, if we could have heard the base material directly, played flat and not bounced off the VA's own internal interpretation, would it have had more impact.
It would have made it easier for me to listen to at least.
But then, if the readings were played flat, then these final audiologs would again have no place in the game.
There is no reason to explain the voice of the readings when a voice has been artfully removed as best possible.
I guess I just don't see the point of the final audiologs, and I would've preferred the game without them.
The challenge is fun though.
It's definitely flawed, but I would have enjoyed the game waaaay less without it. For me, it's not that the game didn't need it, but that it probably could have been executed in a much better way (this is my general feeling on anything Blow does narrative-wise).
Re: Final area
I just became a bit nonplussed when 'The Witness' became 'The Witnesses'.
I think my favourite moment in the game has to be when (+1 spoiler)
And I found that to be great. To be confronted in two modes about my perception of the world.
But that's personal, and really doesn't require a narrative behind it.
I may have missed some recordings, but I still think it could have been interesting if the recordings in the mountain were just all the VAs arguing over interpretations.
Then you start thinking about the lens you've been viewing all these quotes through.
But all I heard was them talking about themselves, and how they didn't want to sound so dramatic all the time. And the experiment.
And I think, if the island truly was the experiment, wouldn't it have been great to just let it stand by itself?
So with all of that removed, it was just a fun setting. Eventually I came to the conclusion that these statues weren't people frozen in time due to some sort of calamity like is implied at the start. They're all too perfect. Too right-in-the-middle of something interesting. If it really was just a flash freeze of every living animal on the island then some of the people would be mid-yawn, or leaning against a thing picking their nose, or just in the middle of walking. It's too posed.
I have no idea what that means, but I don't really need to. It made it feel like a theme park once I figured that out. I was plopped down into this place and told to have fun exploring. And then I did.
The first +1 puzzle I found was the one on the mountain, because i'm not really one who stumbles upon things like that. After that though, I found them everywhere as was the intention. I think my favorite one was the one where you manipulate the foliage to create a line around the empty space of this big tree. I also really liked hearing in the Giant Bomb video with Blow about how they had to work hard to make sure there weren't any circles in the game that weren't related to a puzzle, that's how important the visual language of them was. A ton of thought went into everything about this game's design.
Kind of wish I could wipe my memory of it and start over. I don't think i'll go back to it at all, knowing that there's no "reward" for finding everything. I already loved wandering around the place, forcing myself to continue doing so just to find the last few hidden things would only spoil it.
I'm thinking that panel at the top of the mountain is the one I missed..
+1s
I mean, in town you have hexagonal pulleys, instead of circular ones.
Now that.. that probably won't work depending on the clearance around the corners.
I can also see them spending a lot of time getting the sight lines right.
You don't want to have all the starting points be easily visible everywhere, and you don't want the start points matching up with other paths accidentally.
Also, anyone know what that dog statue near the starting castle is about?
Discrider, do you want some spoilers that might help find that last puzzle?
Or at least there's a very long gap.
This brings us to the candle video. I had found two others prior to this. One was a BBC video that was kind of interesting, and the other was a lecture by Richard Feynman who is always fascinating even though I had seen this particular lecture and interview before. So when I find this third one I figure sure, I'll watch it all the way through.
A guy lights a candle, laboriously walks in silence across a courtyard, the candle goes out halfway, he laboriously walks back and lights it again. Repeat for ten. goddamn. minutes. Finally he gets to the other side, places it down, and falls over dead. Cut to a shot of the inside of a church, which is where I discover that you can scrub through the videos manually.
I don't care about any allegory, or the author's intended message, or interpretations of symbolism, any of that. Again, my brain has shut off at this point. All it is doing is screaming "JUST WALK OVER THERE THEN LIGHT THE CANDLE, ASSHOLE!"
It's not for me, and its inclusion took me out of the experience for a while because of how mad it made me.
The next video I found I heard some lady talking about something I can't even remember now, rolled my eyes after about ten seconds then scrubbed through it looking for circles. I didn't even give the audio on the moon video that much of a chance.
So yeah, the contents of the audio logs might be super neat and fill in some interesting back story, but I'm incapable of even getting to it much less appreciating it.
Last video spoilers:
You're forced to sit through the entire thing. All 50 minutes of it.
But at least it's a somewhat interesting discussion, instead of a guy carrying a candle?
Yeah, that'd be good.
I'm currently stumbling around the island blinded by my own knowledge and unable to find what I haven't discovered because of it.
This isn't really a new concept (which I think Blow acknowledges with the Psalm video) and again, Blow may not have expressed himself in the best way possible. And I'm not at all trying to sound judge-y, like it's good or bad to want to get that stuff. It's just an interesting view for me, since I have absolutely none of that motivation to see everything a game has or check all the boxes or things like that.
You may, of course, know most of this stuff:
-The elevator in the caves has three panel puzzles, all three count
-Did you solve all the colour puzzles in the village? The ones activated in the sound studio underground?
-MY last puzzle was the hard one at the end of the dye marshes, the bonus one with two environmental puzzles to the sides of it.
I only used that word because for me, I want to experience all the content in the game.
Maybe forced is the wrong word. Tricked is kind of better, though I don't really like the negative connotation it brings. I thought it would be something else than it was, and after I sat through it I learned my lesson and ignored the other stuff that would be along those same lines.
I did it because I was looking for all the +1s.
I have solved all these by the looks of it.
Additionally I have solved:
In the factory: The additional puzzle for the stairs and the one in the overseers box that comes on after you solve all the rest.
You can also only wind up only doing half of the castle area, so you might have missed four on the ground + a final one in the tower.
Also, make damn sure you got all then finagle pieces. I had apparently missed one and didn't see it in the pond. If I hadn't stumbled across it, I would have never found out I was missing it.
Do you think he thought it was boring content? All of the videos had some connection to the themes of the game, so I imagine he thought they were interesting and worthwhile and wanted to give players who might not otherwise be exposed to some of those things the opportunity to experience them in relation to the game. Nobody's saying it's deep or clever (Blow might think so, but whatever whatever death of the author). Personally, I do think it's interesting that a game's creator laid his motivations and inspirations out so directly like that. Again, maybe not executed the best way, and I wouldn't want every game to do things this way, but it's still an interesting thing to do in a game and I'm glad he did it. There really isn't anything more to it than that. And you can deride it all you want, the fact is that you don't have to do it, and it is just your completionist urge. So at worst it's something that can be fully ignored.
He makes good games.
I guess I should have broken that sentence up - that was more of a universal you.
FYI @Mayday your 523rd was my 521st, which probably would've been my 523rd if this wasn't my second run through
?
I got this like second or third try?
At an hour I completed it within the sound-track rather than in the weird silence after the second track?
Is this really incongruous to how everyone else experiences the challenge?
Nope, everyone experiences things in games exactly the same. Nobody else had any problem with what is basically the final challenge in the game.
Anyway, I would say it took me a little over an hour, but I got a suuuper friendly run, and was basically having a heart attack the entire time I was doing the column puzzles (I hadn't gotten that far, didn't know they were even there, and the Mountain King was like 3/4 over). It was super intense and if I hadn't gotten it on that run I'm not sure if I would have had the heart to keep going with it.