Oh boy I did not even realize that all the bad ninjas are japanese and all the good ninjas are white
I think the thing that actually struck me as odd was that all the people (late season spoilers)
being held captive for the blood draining thing are white, despite the fact that they're supposed to have been shipped from japan iirc? The accountant's son makes sense, of course.
It's possible I missed something there though, I blanked on a bit of that plotline because I was more interested in the other stuff
Daypigeon on
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masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
I was going to bring up Elektra as a counter example but then i thought about that a little more and maybe that doesn't work out so good
Iron Fist should help quite a bit with that, because Danny's supporting cast is full of badasses who are as good as he is if not better, but it's still not great that we gotta wait for the explicit martial arts one
After the initial high has passed, I can say that the biggest problem of this season is how few of the plot threads throughout the season are resolved. And not just "resolved in an unsatisfactory way", but resolved.
I really, really like Frank turning down the PTSD defence.
Quoting something from a while ago as I reread the thread for spoilers, but whatever
I like it in principle
But the dude like, almost definitely has PTSD (admittedly, not PTSD from the war though)
Like, you could follow along in the DSM as he is talking about his family and watch him check off the bullet points
That was something I liked about the trial, too.
Usually the cliche is that some namby pamby psychologist comes along to give some limp-wristed explanation about feeeeelings, when of course the only true way to make our hero feel better is by kicking ass and taking names in the manliest way possible. I'm looking at you, Lethal Weapon.
But for Punisher we're instead encouraged much more to believe that Frank Castle is really not a man in his right mind, and that the psychologists are probably right. He talks about how he didn't view war as any big deal, even when his buddies would die. Then his family gets killed and he can't bear to go back to his old house, he's just in constant "war" mode, and you definitely get the impression that he's stuck there until he finally gets killed, and that really that's what he wants even more than justice. He may be a vigilante but there's also a big dollop of serial killer to DD's Frank.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I really, really like Frank turning down the PTSD defence.
Quoting something from a while ago as I reread the thread for spoilers, but whatever
I like it in principle
But the dude like, almost definitely has PTSD (admittedly, not PTSD from the war though)
Like, you could follow along in the DSM as he is talking about his family and watch him check off the bullet points
My problem with this was it kind of perpetuates the idea that only wars/soldiers can get/give PTSD, which is super super not true
Yeah, and given that Marvel's Netflix division has had a really good understanding of PTSD (from a non-war situation) before, it's kind of frustrating
Like, I get him not wanting to say that he has PTSD from the war
There's nothing in the show to explicitly suggest that he does
But he definitely has PTSD, and while the war isn't the direct cause, it seems like it's a contributing factor for the way that he is coping with it
I don't think the show is saying that he doesn't have PTSD though, it's just Castle himself that's saying that.
And someone in denial that they need help seems pretty accurate actually.
Frank's also responding specifically to the "soldier comes home with PTSD and now he's a psycho violent maniac" trope
Which is totally a stereotype that does affect vets. Even if Frank has PTSD or other mental problems that doesn't mean that's the only reason why he chose to start murdering people.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I like both Elektra and Stick a lot when they are functioning as part of Matt's Messed Up Family Drama. Stick as the disapproving distant replacement father figure that Matt can't help but keep trying to impress even though Matt knows he's just an asshole. Elektra as the on-and-off-again thrill-seeking rich girlfriend who loves him and can't help but be completely terrible for him.
As soon as Stick starts blabbing on about Prophecies and Ancient History and blah blah blah on the other hand it just sucks all the air out of the scene. DD s2's biggest problem is trying to introduce a mythology into a show about fucked up people trying to make their fucked up city better*. These characters already have history and motivations and hangups, they don't need to ACTUALLY be doing things because THE PROPHECY told them to.
*And by city it's really just kind of their extended neighborhood, the place where their family lives. DD protecting New York or The World doesn't really have the same emotional stakes, because that's more of an abstract concept. But protecting his neighborhood is protecting his family, and directly plays into all those family issues and hangups that he has.
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
I'm not sure if I entirely agree with that.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I still think that he's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible. And he's definitely portrayed as a sincerely damaged human being, one who is doing what he thinks is necessary. They portray that in stark and brutal honesty, but I think they leave it up to the audience to decide exactly how bad he is.
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
The show isn't trying to convince anyone that what he's doing is badass or cool. You are still welcome to come to that conclusion on your own, but the show does not glorify it the way many of the comics do.
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
I mean, the cool and badass thing is a value judgment, either way, much like the terrible person one.
I'm just glad the show portrays him in harsh enough light that he can be accepted as being either way.
Like, even though I think of Punisher as a villain, I think the way they've chosen to portray him works better than choosing to portray him as very explicitly a villain, because it allows for differing value judgments on the dude.
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Andy JoeWe claim the land for the highlord!The AdirondacksRegistered Userregular
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
Your opinion isn't "on trial". Like I said, everyone is welcome to draw their own opinion about the character. The point of the discussion is that the show isn't actively trying to campaign for one particular common view of his actions. The only narrative the show pushes with regard to Frank Castle is that he's gone through a lot of trauma and is very damaged as a result.
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
thats fine but they aren't intentionally portraying the punisher as super awesome, thats something you're bringing to the show
He's certainly portrayed as very competent, within a defined range of skills. And of course the likability of a fictional character is determined more by agency than morality.
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
thats fine but they aren't intentionally portraying the punisher as super awesome, thats something you're bringing to the show
He's certainly portrayed as very competent, within a defined range of skills. And of course the likability of a fictional character is determined more by agency than morality.
I really, really like Frank turning down the PTSD defence.
Quoting something from a while ago as I reread the thread for spoilers, but whatever
I like it in principle
But the dude like, almost definitely has PTSD (admittedly, not PTSD from the war though)
Like, you could follow along in the DSM as he is talking about his family and watch him check off the bullet points
My problem with this was it kind of perpetuates the idea that only wars/soldiers can get/give PTSD, which is super super not true
I agree that he probably does have PTSD from his family's death, but they were trying to insinuate that he got PTSD from the war not from his family's death.
Karen was pushing for a story that Frank was a war veteran who's wartime PTSD was "set off" by the death of his family. Which is the part that he disagreed with. It's this kind of mythology of the veteran that gets perpetuated. That any kind of heavy emotional reaction is derived from their experiences in the military. Which, you know, may be but the way it's applied to all veterans is super disingenuous. He didn't want anyone to take the easy out by blaming it on his time in the military, he wanted them to know it was about the death of his family.
His reaction to the idea is really genuine and flies in the face of the typical procedural or media approach to the subject, and I thought it was well worth upholding.
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
thats fine but they aren't intentionally portraying the punisher as super awesome, thats something you're bringing to the show
He's certainly portrayed as very competent, within a defined range of skills. And of course the likability of a fictional character is determined more by agency than morality.
You are absolutely projecting your personal feelings onto the show here. I can believe this is why you identify with the Punisher the way you do, and that's cool, but that's a personal stance, not one the show is angling for. For example, Purple Man in Jessica Jones was incredibly competent within his defined range of skills, but the show went out of its way to show you that he was a despicable monster.
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Andy JoeWe claim the land for the highlord!The AdirondacksRegistered Userregular
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
thats fine but they aren't intentionally portraying the punisher as super awesome, thats something you're bringing to the show
He's certainly portrayed as very competent, within a defined range of skills. And of course the likability of a fictional character is determined more by agency than morality.
This is in no way a universal truth
I wouldn't say universal either, but certainly more common than not. You ever notice that villains are often substantially more popular than heroes? Often part of the reason is that they're typically driving forces, starting out much more actively.
This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
thats fine but they aren't intentionally portraying the punisher as super awesome, thats something you're bringing to the show
He's certainly portrayed as very competent, within a defined range of skills. And of course the likability of a fictional character is determined more by agency than morality.
This is in no way a universal truth
I wouldn't say universal either, but certainly more common than not. You ever notice that villains are often substantially more popular than heroes? It's because they're typically driving forces, starting out much more actively.
That is a potential reason, yes.
But there are a lot of potential reasons as to why villains are (sometimes) more popular than heroes.
You really can't boil down decades of media studies to that.
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some good ninjas are Green
I think... I think he meant in Daredevil, buddy.
Hell yeah they are
Ok I'll stop
I think the thing that actually struck me as odd was that all the people (late season spoilers)
It's possible I missed something there though, I blanked on a bit of that plotline because I was more interested in the other stuff
Iron Fist should help quite a bit with that, because Danny's supporting cast is full of badasses who are as good as he is if not better, but it's still not great that we gotta wait for the explicit martial arts one
?
agree
After the initial high has passed, I can say that the biggest problem of this season is how few of the plot threads throughout the season are resolved. And not just "resolved in an unsatisfactory way", but resolved.
I don't really know why they named him Green Ninja. He's clearly blue.
That was something I liked about the trial, too.
Usually the cliche is that some namby pamby psychologist comes along to give some limp-wristed explanation about feeeeelings, when of course the only true way to make our hero feel better is by kicking ass and taking names in the manliest way possible. I'm looking at you, Lethal Weapon.
Which is totally a stereotype that does affect vets. Even if Frank has PTSD or other mental problems that doesn't mean that's the only reason why he chose to start murdering people.
As soon as Stick starts blabbing on about Prophecies and Ancient History and blah blah blah on the other hand it just sucks all the air out of the scene. DD s2's biggest problem is trying to introduce a mythology into a show about fucked up people trying to make their fucked up city better*. These characters already have history and motivations and hangups, they don't need to ACTUALLY be doing things because THE PROPHECY told them to.
*And by city it's really just kind of their extended neighborhood, the place where their family lives. DD protecting New York or The World doesn't really have the same emotional stakes, because that's more of an abstract concept. But protecting his neighborhood is protecting his family, and directly plays into all those family issues and hangups that he has.
I'm not sure if I entirely agree with that.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I still think that he's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible. And he's definitely portrayed as a sincerely damaged human being, one who is doing what he thinks is necessary. They portray that in stark and brutal honesty, but I think they leave it up to the audience to decide exactly how bad he is.
My favorite illustration of this was:
(Episode 7, I think)
Rereading your post I think I might have read a bit more into it than you'd actually stated
They should have been like the League of Shadows from Batman Begins.
Their ninja clan was diverse!
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
I think thats more on you dude
No, because they have announced a different actor for him.
D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
The show isn't trying to convince anyone that what he's doing is badass or cool. You are still welcome to come to that conclusion on your own, but the show does not glorify it the way many of the comics do.
I'm just glad the show portrays him in harsh enough light that he can be accepted as being either way.
Like, even though I think of Punisher as a villain, I think the way they've chosen to portray him works better than choosing to portray him as very explicitly a villain, because it allows for differing value judgments on the dude.
....okay?
I love the guy but i wouldn't cite him as a source on this one
I'm just saying I'm not alone in my opinion.
(Blood for the blood god.)
thats fine but they aren't intentionally portraying the punisher as super awesome, thats something you're bringing to the show
Your opinion isn't "on trial". Like I said, everyone is welcome to draw their own opinion about the character. The point of the discussion is that the show isn't actively trying to campaign for one particular common view of his actions. The only narrative the show pushes with regard to Frank Castle is that he's gone through a lot of trauma and is very damaged as a result.
He's certainly portrayed as very competent, within a defined range of skills. And of course the likability of a fictional character is determined more by agency than morality.
This is in no way a universal truth
Karen was pushing for a story that Frank was a war veteran who's wartime PTSD was "set off" by the death of his family. Which is the part that he disagreed with. It's this kind of mythology of the veteran that gets perpetuated. That any kind of heavy emotional reaction is derived from their experiences in the military. Which, you know, may be but the way it's applied to all veterans is super disingenuous. He didn't want anyone to take the easy out by blaming it on his time in the military, he wanted them to know it was about the death of his family.
His reaction to the idea is really genuine and flies in the face of the typical procedural or media approach to the subject, and I thought it was well worth upholding.
You are absolutely projecting your personal feelings onto the show here. I can believe this is why you identify with the Punisher the way you do, and that's cool, but that's a personal stance, not one the show is angling for. For example, Purple Man in Jessica Jones was incredibly competent within his defined range of skills, but the show went out of its way to show you that he was a despicable monster.
I wouldn't say universal either, but certainly more common than not. You ever notice that villains are often substantially more popular than heroes? Often part of the reason is that they're typically driving forces, starting out much more actively.
That is a potential reason, yes.
But there are a lot of potential reasons as to why villains are (sometimes) more popular than heroes.
You really can't boil down decades of media studies to that.