LOLOLOL more bad fight scenes. Even when they put a hood on Danny to blatantly give stunt doubles more screen time, they can't do the fight scenes properly.
That Drunken Master fight was so hilariously bad, and the actor speaking with an English accent? Good job dudes. Even ignoring that jarring inconsistency, you were better off not having him speak at all because the dialogue was atrocious regardless.
HOLY SHIT at this point I'm just watching the rest of this to see how much worse it can get.
What's even more hilarious is that everyone and everything except the main character and the main storyline is interesting. Ward in particular is the most interesting character on the show so far. Colleen Wing is #2. Joy is a distant #3, but still eons more interesting than Danny Rand.
Jesus they would've been better off not making this show and introducing Danny Rand as part of the Defenders from the get go, and then giving him a real show afterwards.
What in the actual fuck were they thinking with this show.
Question to the martial arts people:
Was the guy doing an impression of Jackie Chan, or is that just how people think that the fighting style is supposed to look in general (in real life or movies that don't feature Jackie Chan)?
Okay, here's the thing about Danny. I hated him at first, but then I realized why, and have come to appreciate where they're going with him.
Up to Episode 7.
He's like all these fitness guys you see at the gym. He hears about this Iron Fist thing, thinks, "dude, that would be sick, to be Iron Fist; imagine the gainz!!!," and single-mindededly devotes all of his time and energy into earning that status. And he does it, surprising everybody. But it was never about actually fulfilling the duties of the Iron Fist, it was all about meeting all the requirements to become the Iron Fist. You go to a dojo and challenge the master, because that's what you do earn the credit necessary to move up the ranks.
But once he achieves his objective, dude has no idea what to do next, like a dog who finally catches the car. Sure, he knows what he was told about the Iron Fist's duty and whatnot, but his ultimate goal is to defeat mythical badguys. It's like recruiting a U.S. Border Patrol Agent and telling her that her job is to defeat Mictlantecuhtli, Aztec Lord of the Underworld. "I'll get right on that." So he leaves his post and goes home the second the portal opens, because it was never about embracing a culture and a duty with him, it was about doing awesome shit, like another Daniel in The Karate Kid, who learned karate to be a big guy, impress the girl, and beat the bullies. Fulfilling the standards to get a job without actually wanting to do the job or caring about what it entails is a super white American guy thing to do.
He's still a good guy, but he's emotionally stuck at 10 years old when his old life ended. I now understand why they went with a white actor for the character: dude is cultural appropriation personified. He means well, but literally everybody thinks he's an idiot because every inch of his brain is full of what it took to become Iron Fist, or what ten-year-old him thought was important (like that Killah Priest song on his iPod, "Heat of the Moment," aka "more cultural appropriation"). The other characters are either using him, embarrassed of him, or both.
Even Colleen, who is my favorite character by a country mile, gets that he's a super naive dope. When they finally get together, she initiates, and looks amused as hell when he asks if it's okay. "Boy, I just took off my clothes and pulled you on top of me, YES I think it's okay if we have the sex now." Danny missed the part of a millennial upbringing where girls aren't super hung up about making sexual decisions for themselves. The next morning he's stumbling over words, trying to say that it was his first time, and her demeanor says, "duh."
The Meachums start off as fairly stock characters, but I think that they do grow over time. Ward starts as the Futurama 80's guy (he's even got some sort of bone-itis), but the enormous stress involved in keeping his father a secret is enormously telling on him. Joy becomes the real grown-up over time as it's revealed that she's been covering for Ward's fuckups forever. And Harold seems like he's going to be a shadowy manipulator, but quickly reverts to the token evil teammate just flying by the seat of his pants trying to get himself, his children, and his company through the whole affair unscathed. They all see Danny as a means to an end. To Ward, he's the way to keep his father mollified and off his own back. To Joy, he's a moral salve and a PR opportunity. Finally, to Harold, he's the one guy who can save him from The Hand, despite the fact that he's abandoned his duty and is useless to solve any problem that doesn't involve half a loaf of kung fu.
Ultimately the show seems to be about child abuse. Danny gets beaten by monks to make him stronger. Harold disappears from Joy's life and forces Ward to be his cat's paw. The Hand kidnaps children to use against their parents. Colleen is the odd one out, possibly because she hasn't shared her backstory beyond her grandma's mean donkey stew.
Long story short, I don't think this show is as bad as the reviews said. It's telling a different kind of story than the other Marvel Netflix shows, but that's okay. It would be boring if they were all the same. Instead of a Mighty Whitey, this show asks the question, "what did the white man give up to become that good at asian martial arts? Turns out: pretty much everything." I cannot wait to see Luke Cage dismantle Danny in The Defenders when he catches him listening to Wu-Tang Clan. It's going to be solid gold.
Even assuming that was the intent, it's really not conveyed well at all.
"Beverly Hills Ninja" dealt with deconstructing the mighty archetype. "The Last Dragon" deconstructed cultural appropriation. The first movie showcased this by having a traditional Asian character who was far more competent and who had to clean up the messes left by the main character. The second movie showcased the absurdity of the archetype by transferring it onto a race that didn't have that same history.
Both those movies also worked as comedies. A serious drama takes a lot more time and skill, and the creators of this show had neither.
But really, if the writers really did want to go for the themes you're describing, then they could have set up a parallel with
Danny as majority. Danny has more wealth and power than most people could ever dream of, and he didn't have to do anything to earn it other than being born. He doesn't have any business background, or even a real world education. It would have been really easy for the show to portray him as a man who means well, but who is ultimately a disaster. Instead, we as an audience are supposed to believe that Danny is always in the right. Joy thinks he's great for PR, and the public loves him.
Remember that subplot about the woman who blamed Rand for her kid getting cancer? Imagine if a woman approached Danny telling him that Rand brand mumps vaccines gave her child autism. And then Danny immediately accepts her conclusion as valid, despite government regulations saying otherwise, because she's crying and therefore correct.
If the writers wanted to highlight Danny's naivety, they could have followed up the subplot where the company is now being face with tons of bogus lawsuits from people who want to take advantage of Danny's willingness to believe. Or, if they wanted to highlight Rand as a corrupt organization, they could have had the lawyer argue that Rand corporation bribed the government regulators to change the code, to which Joy could calmly deflect and evade.
As a majority shareholder, Danny never has to make any tough decisions. i.e., what if selling drugs at costs means you have no money for future cures? Or what if it results in massive layoffs or pay cuts? What if the chemicals being produced by their factories are saving lives in other areas?
And then at some point, Danny realizes that he's in way over his head, and that he didn't realize what he was signing onto until it was too late and now he has too much responsibility with no idea what to do with it.
Instead, the show wants you to know that Danny is a hero for sticking up for the poor and helpless, and it never goes any deeper than that.
Ah, no, not really?
I'm up to episode 11.
Literally every other character comments about how Danny doesn't understand how the world works, and his actions lead to the board firing the Meachums and banning Danny from the building (not that he even noticed outside of one scene where he's stealing drugs; he's got the Daredevil S2 ninja fighting syndrome and doesn't care about that stuff). Joy is only trying to make lemonade after Danny upsets the fruit cart. They DO risk "bogus" lawsuits (which we know aren't really bogus) until Ward and Joy step in and fix it. That is a subplot that does, in fact, happen. As I said before, everyone in the show knows that he's this dumb boyscout kungfuman and tries to take advantage of him. He's like fucking Candide. It's not subtext, even, but text.
Danny is a hero who sticks up for the helpless, but Claire accurately diagnoses him as emotionally stunted. He is suppressing rage, he has abandoned his post defending K'un-Lun, he has a very simplistic view of right and wrong, he has severe PTSD, and an entitlement complex, all things that he gets called out for.
In one egregious example in Episode 11, Davos wants to drive Claire's car. Danny tells him he can't, because he doesn't have a driver's license. Davos asks Danny if HE has a driver's license, and he says, "No, but it's different: I'm rich."
I'm sorry, but that CANNOT be she show taking his side. Earlier, motherfucker bought an Aston Martin (probably because he liked Bond movies as a kid) and even Ward was like, "are you fucking serious?" The show wants us to know that he's a clueless 1%er, and not only that, a clueless 1%er HIPPIE who never graduated from 5th grade.
I know I seem to be defending the show a lot. I think that the show has a lot of problems. They clearly did not have enough time to choreograph the fights, train the actors, or have more than one pass at the script. It needed a lot more than it got, but I don't think that it's a total wash, and I'm glad that some of these folks are going to get another go-round with The Defenders, because I expect that they'll take the time necessary to do it right.
The problem is that everyone criticizing Danny is also presented as a monster, thus poisoning the well for the critic.
We're outright told that everyone on the board has lots of demons in their closets, thanks to the Jessica Jones investigations.
The one semi-decent person at that company is Joy, and Joy decides to spend the series defending Danny's actions rather than criticizing him.
The main problem is that Danny's actions never present any consequences in the form of something that Danny or that we as an audience are supposed to care about. They're told that his decisions will cost them money, but not of any sacrifices that the company will be forced to make, which means that the only real concern is pissing off the shareholders. And since Danny owns 51% of the company, "pissing off the shareholders" doesn't even matter.
On top of that, the main representative of the board is also embezzling from the company by raiding the pension fund. Which shows that he's only looking out for himself. He doesn't give a shit about the company, and he doesn't give a shit about the employees. So the fact that he whines that Danny "doesn't understand how the world works" holds no weight whatsoever.
And when you say that the lawsuits that they're risking "aren't really bogus," you're proving my point. One way that the show could have handled the matter was to show Danny a huge stack of lawsuits filed over the years, the bulk of which were completely bogus (with descriptions of how ridiculous they were). And that by admitting liability in this case, he was now making the company a lot more vulnerable to all those other suits. And even if they won those other cases, it would still cost them tens of millions of dollars in legal fees.
Even the "Danny is great for PR" thing could have been flipped around by having Danny over promise and under deliver, thus making the public turn on him and on the company. Because with Danny's naivety, it would be really easy for him to make a promise that the company couldn't deliver on. But the show hasn't explored that yet.
In short, the public thinks Danny is doing a great job and the shareholders think Danny is doing a great job. The only people who don't think that Danny is doing a great job are corrupt SOB monsters who are stealing from their own company.
I haven't gotten away with the driving scene yet, but unless Danny commits vehicular homicide due to incompetence, I have absolutely no problem believing that the writers want you to take Danny's side with the "because I'm rich" comment. The implication being that he can pay for any damages that he causes. What exactly would the alternative be? Wait for an Uber to take them? (Again, I haven't watched the seen, but I have a hard time believing that to be the case). So while you might see Danny's remark as a wrong thing to say, I don't think that's what the writers intended.
Episodes 8-10 or so.
In the space of a couple of episodes, Danny has literally everyone he knows tell him he's an asshole to his face, and point out how his actions and decisions are the reason for the raft of shit everyone is on.
Joy tells him he's the reason they lost the company. Claire tells him he's being an unreasonable dick to Colleen just for being in a situation very similar to his own. Davos tells him he's a traitor and a loser for running out on K'un Lun in its time of need. Basically the only person who doesn't come down hard on him is Harold, and he's just openly manipulating him at that point via the faux father figure thing.
Danny catches plenty of hell for being a naive, hypocritical man-child with no sense of boundaries or respect for the agency and expertise of others.
LOLOLOL more bad fight scenes. Even when they put a hood on Danny to blatantly give stunt doubles more screen time, they can't do the fight scenes properly.
That Drunken Master fight was so hilariously bad, and the actor speaking with an English accent? Good job dudes. Even ignoring that jarring inconsistency, you were better off not having him speak at all because the dialogue was atrocious regardless.
HOLY SHIT at this point I'm just watching the rest of this to see how much worse it can get.
What's even more hilarious is that everyone and everything except the main character and the main storyline is interesting. Ward in particular is the most interesting character on the show so far. Colleen Wing is #2. Joy is a distant #3, but still eons more interesting than Danny Rand.
Jesus they would've been better off not making this show and introducing Danny Rand as part of the Defenders from the get go, and then giving him a real show afterwards.
What in the actual fuck were they thinking with this show.
Question to the martial arts people:
Was the guy doing an impression of Jackie Chan, or is that just how people think that the fighting style is supposed to look in general (in real life or movies that don't feature Jackie Chan)?
I think that drunken style is an actual martial art, Jackie didn't invent it for that movie.
LOLOLOL more bad fight scenes. Even when they put a hood on Danny to blatantly give stunt doubles more screen time, they can't do the fight scenes properly.
That Drunken Master fight was so hilariously bad, and the actor speaking with an English accent? Good job dudes. Even ignoring that jarring inconsistency, you were better off not having him speak at all because the dialogue was atrocious regardless.
HOLY SHIT at this point I'm just watching the rest of this to see how much worse it can get.
What's even more hilarious is that everyone and everything except the main character and the main storyline is interesting. Ward in particular is the most interesting character on the show so far. Colleen Wing is #2. Joy is a distant #3, but still eons more interesting than Danny Rand.
Jesus they would've been better off not making this show and introducing Danny Rand as part of the Defenders from the get go, and then giving him a real show afterwards.
What in the actual fuck were they thinking with this show.
Question to the martial arts people:
Was the guy doing an impression of Jackie Chan, or is that just how people think that the fighting style is supposed to look in general (in real life or movies that don't feature Jackie Chan)?
Jackie Chan is sort of the definitive touchstone for that form, cinematically. Like virtually every other fight scene, that one was an homage.
Actual Drunken Style isn't too terribly far off from that. Definitely not further than any given form of Kung Fu usually is from the Wuxia they use to portray it.
The guy doing the drunken master style was the one who campaigned to play Danny Rand right? He can actually fight but he was given some shitty lines and not much to work with choreographically. Despite that I thought he carried it better than Jones did in the entire season.
In the space of a couple of episodes, Danny has literally everyone he knows tell him he's an asshole to his face, and point out how his actions and decisions are the reason for the raft of shit everyone is on.
Joy tells him he's the reason they lost the company. Claire tells him he's being an unreasonable dick to Colleen just for being in a situation very similar to his own. Davos tells him he's a traitor and a loser for running out on K'un Lun in its time of need. Basically the only person who doesn't come down hard on him is Harold, and he's just openly manipulating him at that point via the faux father figure thing.
Danny catches plenty of hell for being a naive, hypocritical man-child with no sense of boundaries or respect for the agency and expertise of others.
The only one of those examples relevant to my comment is Joy.
And Joy's comment is tainted by the fact that she was let go because of a bunch of greedy SOB board members who only look out for themselves.
Just because Danny's actions inspire bad people to do bad things does not mean that the writers are trying to present Danny's actions bad in itself.
That would be like arguing, "Thawne wouldn't be inspired to kill Barry's mother if Barry wasn't a superhero, ergo, Barry being a superhero is bad."
Schrodinger on
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
While I am really enjoying the show, I do think that one of the things that could have improved the show greatly is either more lead time for Jones to get into actual ass-kicking condition or casting someone with a more relevant background and better physicality. Jones looks like Danny probably ought to; lean, long, kinda dirty hippy-ish. But he clearly struggles with some of the fighting because it's not a skill he actually has that much of. Credit where credit is due, he can pull off some of it. But the ambitious way they decided to shoot a lot of the scenes highlights how he is clearly just executing the equivalent of dance steps rather than actually fighting, even if he's doing the "right" thing to win the actual fight. Colleen gets some of that, too, but her personal style is more flaily and goes heavier on the shoulders so it's harder to tell most of the time.
I still enjoy most of the fight scenes and really appreciate what they're going for. It's just the execution that suffers most of the time. When it's good, it feels good, like how Danny ought to fight. It's just not always good.
I always figured "Drunken Fighting Style" was a made-up fighting style just for movies.
Like it looks cool when Jackie Chan does it, but I always figured trying that shit in a real fight would just get your ass beat.
But IANAMA
A lot of contemporary martial arts training doesn't stand up well to sincere street fighting. Most people aren't being trained how to beat up fighters in general, just how to fight other people using the exact same style with a bunch of rules to keep anyone from getting hurt.
In the space of a couple of episodes, Danny has literally everyone he knows tell him he's an asshole to his face, and point out how his actions and decisions are the reason for the raft of shit everyone is on.
Joy tells him he's the reason they lost the company. Claire tells him he's being an unreasonable dick to Colleen just for being in a situation very similar to his own. Davos tells him he's a traitor and a loser for running out on K'un Lun in its time of need. Basically the only person who doesn't come down hard on him is Harold, and he's just openly manipulating him at that point via the faux father figure thing.
Danny catches plenty of hell for being a naive, hypocritical man-child with no sense of boundaries or respect for the agency and expertise of others.
The only one of those examples relevant to my comment is Joy.
And Joy's comment is tainted by the fact that she was let go because of a bunch of greedy SOB board members who only look out for themselves.
Just because Danny's actions inspire bad people to do bad things does not mean that the writers are trying to present Danny's actions bad in itself.
That would be like arguing, "Thawne wouldn't be inspired to kill Barry's mother if Barry wasn't a superhero, ergo, Barry being a superhero is bad."
Sure, if you want to dig far enough, a setting with the term "supervillains" in actual use is going to have someone super shady on the back end of every negative thing that happens. But I'm really not seeing that as a reason to say that Danny isn't feeling the repercussions of his actions by the end of the series. That it took a bunch of greedy people to give him a reality check doesn't mean that isn't what he got.
Not every lesson or chance for growth has to be delivered from on high in a beam of heavenly light. This is a lesson that can be taught perfectly well by a board room full of greedy fucks. He's still off the board, and it's still because of something he did.
I always figured "Drunken Fighting Style" was a made-up fighting style just for movies.
Like it looks cool when Jackie Chan does it, but I always figured trying that shit in a real fight would just get your ass beat.
But IANAMA
A lot of contemporary martial arts training doesn't stand up well to sincere street fighting. Most people aren't being trained how to beat up fighters in general, just how to fight other people using the exact same style with a bunch of rules to keep anyone from getting hurt.
Hence, the Donnie Yen vs. Mike Tyson seen that someone posted earlier. Where the goal was for Yen to last 3 minutes, rather than actually win.
In the real world, Yen would probably be lucky to last 20 seconds in the fight we saw from the sheer power of Mike's punches.
LOLOLOL more bad fight scenes. Even when they put a hood on Danny to blatantly give stunt doubles more screen time, they can't do the fight scenes properly.
That Drunken Master fight was so hilariously bad, and the actor speaking with an English accent? Good job dudes. Even ignoring that jarring inconsistency, you were better off not having him speak at all because the dialogue was atrocious regardless.
HOLY SHIT at this point I'm just watching the rest of this to see how much worse it can get.
What's even more hilarious is that everyone and everything except the main character and the main storyline is interesting. Ward in particular is the most interesting character on the show so far. Colleen Wing is #2. Joy is a distant #3, but still eons more interesting than Danny Rand.
Jesus they would've been better off not making this show and introducing Danny Rand as part of the Defenders from the get go, and then giving him a real show afterwards.
What in the actual fuck were they thinking with this show.
Question to the martial arts people:
Was the guy doing an impression of Jackie Chan, or is that just how people think that the fighting style is supposed to look in general (in real life or movies that don't feature Jackie Chan)?
Episode 8
If you dig too deeply into the history of martial arts, primarily Chinese martial arts that did not survive the turmoil and diaspora of the 1940's onwards (and even many of those), then you will find a lot of apocrypha and myth and not a lot of solid fact. Particularly if you are looking for historical sources and lineages.
Modern wushu is rooted just as much in this kind of wishful thinking as it is in any actual martial history, as it draws from things such as Chinese Opera and gymnastics just as much as it draws from actual, historical Chinese martial arts.
The "Drunken Fist" in the Jackie Chan movies is rooted in that "tradition", where it's not really a style per se so much as something inspired by legend. There are dozens of so-called "drunken" styles (some of which don't even mimic a drunk person, but rather drunk animals such as monkeys), and hundreds more forms (e.g., techniques within larger styles that themselves are not entirely based on "being drunk"), and I would argue that none of them actually exist anymore in something that would be recognizable to those historical (sometimes centuries-lost) traditions. So in a sense, the Jackie Chan (and pre-Jackie Chan) movies are the source.
If the purpose of the fight scene was to pay an homage to modern wuxia film portrayals of Drunken Fist, then they failed pretty miserably. Based entirely on watching that fight scene, I assume Philip Tan's background is probably more Japanese- or Korean-based than anything else. Either that or he is just built incorrectly (yes, that is a thing) to portray the kind of flexible, fluid movement you expect to see in a wuxia Drunken Fist. Or they just plain choreographed it poorly.
Take the guy Jackie Chan faced in the final fight scene for Drunken Master 2 (a.k.a. "Legend of the Drunken Master" in the U.S.). Ken Lo is a master martial artist and was apparently Chan's bodyguard before taking the role. And he moves like a motherfucker. But there is no credible way for someone of his skill-set (Muay Thai + Tae Kwon Do) or body type to portray the kind of wiry, whirly, dervish and off-balance flexibility that you would expect in the "Drunken Fist" style. Even if he was taught the specific moves and could physically do them, they would just look wrong. This is the same reason that gymnasts skew towards being short. Not only do they have a much higher strength-to-size ratio and can more quickly and easily pull off moves that larger people can't, but there is a large element of aesthetics that come into play. Consider that Lo is only a few inches taller than Chan, and both are below 6 feet, while Tan stands several inches above height.
The fact that someone like Tan was hired for this specific role and this specific fight speaks volumes of the lack of planning and experience that came into play for this show in general. These scenes are subpar even by straight-to-DVD standards (which know that if you are going to have a shit story, at least make the action fun and exciting).
Again, this is not so much a criticism of the actors (Jones in particular is taking a lot of flak) but a criticism of the whole production. These people should not have been hired for these roles. Period.
A final bit of venting on that fight - don't do homages to wuxia classics if you aren't going to do them justice or even pretend to care. Quick cuts and close-ups are an insult when the source material's most seminal fight scene is an 8-minute epic that is largely made up of wide-angle shots and long, uncut sequences. That fight scene took four months to shoot.
This is a slap in the face to those of us who grew up watching this stuff. You aren't doing the amount of work required. I don't care how much you claim to "love" it. Feelings are worthless without action to back them up. If you aren't going to put in the effort, then fuck you.
I thought Danny Rand's calling card was supposed to be that he was the best fighter out of the bunch, and he regularly struggles to face off the most random goons and looks like shit doing it. All you had to do was find someone who could throw a punch and put him in a basic story that wasn't complete trash, and you couldn't even do that.
I challenge everyone to rewatch the first episode and try to keep track of Dannys hobo-pack.
Oh yeah that bugged me.
My wife literally went "where's his backpack?" after the scene transition. It was weirdly jarring.
I honestly expected
Some off-screen smacks and Danny then walking back into the office going "sorry, forgot the backpack".
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I just looked up the fight choreographers for this show.
It explains a lot.
Fuck you to whoever is responsible for running this show. Everything from the casting to the plot to the fight choreography is full of the wrong people. Even if they hired a great choreographer I'm guessing the directors and cinematographers would have no idea how to shoot it properly.
The best parts of this show so far are everything that comes from outside of it, or everything not related to the main character.
Consider taking Ward out of this clusterfuck and making him the main character. Do you need Danny Rand or the Iron Fist? OH SHIT. YOU DON'T. WHO FUCKING KNEW.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
I always figured "Drunken Fighting Style" was a made-up fighting style just for movies.
Like it looks cool when Jackie Chan does it, but I always figured trying that shit in a real fight would just get your ass beat.
But IANAMA
A lot of contemporary martial arts training doesn't stand up well to sincere street fighting. Most people aren't being trained how to beat up fighters in general, just how to fight other people using the exact same style with a bunch of rules to keep anyone from getting hurt.
yeah martial arts are arts and sport, not real fight training per se.
in real life when a kung fu master is confronted with a room full of baddies the master gets beaten.
I always figured "Drunken Fighting Style" was a made-up fighting style just for movies.
Like it looks cool when Jackie Chan does it, but I always figured trying that shit in a real fight would just get your ass beat.
But IANAMA
A lot of contemporary martial arts training doesn't stand up well to sincere street fighting. Most people aren't being trained how to beat up fighters in general, just how to fight other people using the exact same style with a bunch of rules to keep anyone from getting hurt.
yeah martial arts are arts and sport, not real fight training per se.
in real life when a kung fu master is confronted with a room full of baddies the master gets beaten.
Or shot, as Bruce Lee was fond of pointing out. "Why don't I just use a gun?"
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
the thing that gets me about this show is that its not like them doing it took them by surprise
they just totally failed at the production level which is really unusual for marvel
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thatassemblyguyJanitor of Technical Debt.Registered Userregular
On the Kung Fu side of Marvel, guns are for people who don't know how to fight properly. I believe there's actually a line in one of the episodes expressing exactly that sentiment.
If we're striving for realism, the idea of someone who can hear their surroundings well enough to backflip through them is probably off the table, too.
ok so some of you might be wondering wtf was going on with that drunken masters accent
that actor is lewis tan, who is actually from manchester, and auditioned for the part of iron fist. i guess he looked too asian to cast as danny because he's a good martial artist apparently :<
I just looked up the fight choreographers for this show.
It explains a lot.
Fuck you to whoever is responsible for running this show. Everything from the casting to the plot to the fight choreography is full of the wrong people. Even if they hired a great choreographer I'm guessing the directors and cinematographers would have no idea how to shoot it properly.
The best parts of this show so far are everything that comes from outside of it, or everything not related to the main character.
Consider taking Ward out of this clusterfuck and making him the main character. Do you need Danny Rand or the Iron Fist? OH SHIT. YOU DON'T. WHO FUCKING KNEW.
did they even have a person whose sole task was fight choreography?
on imdb theres a stunt coordinator who also did a bit but it doesnt seem like they had a main one at all...
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they had someone who was like me; just a huge fan of Hong Kong cinema with some training. Because, while I'm not as down on the fights as some others are, there are bits that are clearly rather amateurish, while at the same time being otherwise point-for-point genre homages.
On the Kung Fu side of Marvel, guns are for people who don't know how to fight properly. I believe there's actually a line in one of the episodes expressing exactly that sentiment.
If we're striving for realism, the idea of someone who can hear their surroundings well enough to backflip through them is probably off the table, too.
But they still had guns in Daredevil. They found creative ways for Daredevil to disarm people and made the fights interesting. They should have done that in Iron Fist.
I really hope the poor way they handled guns in Iron Fist doesn't carry over to Defenders. Because with both Daredevil and Luke Cage, they should have bad guys with guns. It would be embarrassing if Iron Fist can't deal with guns.
On the Kung Fu side of Marvel, guns are for people who don't know how to fight properly. I believe there's actually a line in one of the episodes expressing exactly that sentiment.
If we're striving for realism, the idea of someone who can hear their surroundings well enough to backflip through them is probably off the table, too.
But they still had guns in Daredevil. They found creative ways for Daredevil to disarm people and made the fights interesting. They should have done that in Iron Fist.
I really hope the poor way they handled guns in Iron Fist doesn't carry over to Defenders. Because with both Daredevil and Luke Cage, they should have bad guys with guns. It would be embarrassing if Iron Fist can't deal with guns.
Daredevil's not really kung fu Marvel, though. At least not in most of his series. He's Blind Batman.
I realize I might sound flippant here, but I'm being 100% serious.
Iron Fist and Daredevil end up in the same books sometimes, but for the most part they occupy two very different realities within the same comic book universe. One of those realities has people with guns that are crazy dangerous and the other one has mooks that get jump kicked through train cars that also sometimes have guns.
These are properties with very different genre conceits required to make them work. Which, at this point, I think is part of why people that loved Daredevil may not like Iron Fist at all. Because beyond even the execution errors, they're not the same on a pretty fundamental level.
Edit: I should add that I expect the Defenders to be a completely different animal yet. Since team books always are.
Daredevil lives more in the crime genre, Iron Fist lives more in the Kung Fu / wuxia genre.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I always figured "Drunken Fighting Style" was a made-up fighting style just for movies.
Like it looks cool when Jackie Chan does it, but I always figured trying that shit in a real fight would just get your ass beat.
But IANAMA
A lot of contemporary martial arts training doesn't stand up well to sincere street fighting. Most people aren't being trained how to beat up fighters in general, just how to fight other people using the exact same style with a bunch of rules to keep anyone from getting hurt.
yeah martial arts are arts and sport, not real fight training per se.
in real life when a kung fu master is confronted with a room full of baddies the master gets beaten.
Or shot, as Bruce Lee was fond of pointing out. "Why don't I just use a gun?"
Theoretically Bruce Lee is actually an example of the opposite position, considering that he originally learned martial arts because he wanted to be better at gang fighting.
Daredevil lives more in the crime genre, Iron Fist lives more in the Kung Fu / wuxia genre.
There's a small but important group of fighters in Marvel Comics that can basically just clownshoes anyone who pulls a gun on them, with the only real tension being the possible danger to bystanders. Danny is in it, Matt isn't.
Colleen usually is, too, depending on the writing.
the thing that gets me about this show is that its not like them doing it took them by surprise
they just totally failed at the production level which is really unusual for marvel
Possible Netflix interference?
Doubt it. They generally seem to be about finding creatives they like and getting out of their way. It's likely the marvel machine dropped the ball on this one.
In fact, it's pretty dumb that the Hand's guards don't use guns. They used guns in Daredevil.
Except that they do use guns? Frankly there's A LOT of scenes where the Hand's people use guns.
In fact almost the only situations where they aren't armed with guns is when they're taking part in a very stylized and ceremonial tournament, and in China where basically being seen openly carrying a gun is like asking for a military intervention.
I can't believe how much time this show is spending on thin, poorly executed corporate intrigue. What a mess. Also Danny might as well have been played by a concussed puppy.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
There are a million shows out there, Daredevil included, which show feasible ways to put up the flimsiest of screens so that people with guns are suddenly unable to use them. That's all you need. People are willing to let it go if you give them an excuse.
And yet...
Episode 9
This show is so fucking stupid that it had a guard walking around a warehouse with a fucking halberd because "the Hand". Except the guards are so fucking incompetent that they get knocked out while being distracted by fucking rocks. So it begs the question of why they are walking around with medieval weapons instead of just having guns, because who the fuck are they going to defend the warehouse against with goddamn swords and halberds.
There are a million shows out there, Daredevil included, which show feasible ways to put up the flimsiest of screens so that people with guns are suddenly unable to use them. That's all you need. People are willing to let it go if you give them an excuse.
And yet...
Episode 9
This show is so fucking stupid that it had a guard walking around a warehouse with a fucking halberd because "the Hand". Except the guards are so fucking incompetent that they get knocked out while being distracted by fucking rocks. So it begs the question of why they are walking around with medieval weapons instead of just having guns, because who the fuck are they going to defend the warehouse against with goddamn swords and halberds.
Because.
They.
Are.
In.
China.
Where carrying a gun is a giant sign saying "Come fuck my shit up government!"
In the space of a couple of episodes, Danny has literally everyone he knows tell him he's an asshole to his face, and point out how his actions and decisions are the reason for the raft of shit everyone is on.
Joy tells him he's the reason they lost the company. Claire tells him he's being an unreasonable dick to Colleen just for being in a situation very similar to his own. Davos tells him he's a traitor and a loser for running out on K'un Lun in its time of need. Basically the only person who doesn't come down hard on him is Harold, and he's just openly manipulating him at that point via the faux father figure thing.
Danny catches plenty of hell for being a naive, hypocritical man-child with no sense of boundaries or respect for the agency and expertise of others.
The only one of those examples relevant to my comment is Joy.
And Joy's comment is tainted by the fact that she was let go because of a bunch of greedy SOB board members who only look out for themselves.
Just because Danny's actions inspire bad people to do bad things does not mean that the writers are trying to present Danny's actions bad in itself.
That would be like arguing, "Thawne wouldn't be inspired to kill Barry's mother if Barry wasn't a superhero, ergo, Barry being a superhero is bad."
Sure, if you want to dig far enough, a setting with the term "supervillains" in actual use is going to have someone super shady on the back end of every negative thing that happens. But I'm really not seeing that as a reason to say that Danny isn't feeling the repercussions of his actions by the end of the series. That it took a bunch of greedy people to give him a reality check doesn't mean that isn't what he got.
Not every lesson or chance for growth has to be delivered from on high in a beam of heavenly light. This is a lesson that can be taught perfectly well by a board room full of greedy fucks. He's still off the board, and it's still because of something he did.
What exactly was the "reality check" here?
The corporation loses some money? This is a corporation that's been thoroughly infiltrated by the Hand from the very beginning, and which relies on the corporation as a major source of funding.
So I guess that the reality check is... Danny spending company money to help out cancer victims means less money to fund a super secret criminal organization. And also Joy and Ward get kicked out of said company controlled by criminals because of Danny's decision.
This isn't Wayne Enterprises. This isn't Queen Consolidated. This isn't even Tony Stark's weapons company.
This is basically LexCorp.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
re: madame gao
only acceptable way for her story to work is if she deliberately let herself be captured because she knew it was win win - she could leave at any time and she would let danny destroy the fake hand
otherwise the fact she goes from powerful force user to helpless old woman is too troll for words
In the space of a couple of episodes, Danny has literally everyone he knows tell him he's an asshole to his face, and point out how his actions and decisions are the reason for the raft of shit everyone is on.
Joy tells him he's the reason they lost the company. Claire tells him he's being an unreasonable dick to Colleen just for being in a situation very similar to his own. Davos tells him he's a traitor and a loser for running out on K'un Lun in its time of need. Basically the only person who doesn't come down hard on him is Harold, and he's just openly manipulating him at that point via the faux father figure thing.
Danny catches plenty of hell for being a naive, hypocritical man-child with no sense of boundaries or respect for the agency and expertise of others.
The only one of those examples relevant to my comment is Joy.
And Joy's comment is tainted by the fact that she was let go because of a bunch of greedy SOB board members who only look out for themselves.
Just because Danny's actions inspire bad people to do bad things does not mean that the writers are trying to present Danny's actions bad in itself.
That would be like arguing, "Thawne wouldn't be inspired to kill Barry's mother if Barry wasn't a superhero, ergo, Barry being a superhero is bad."
Sure, if you want to dig far enough, a setting with the term "supervillains" in actual use is going to have someone super shady on the back end of every negative thing that happens. But I'm really not seeing that as a reason to say that Danny isn't feeling the repercussions of his actions by the end of the series. That it took a bunch of greedy people to give him a reality check doesn't mean that isn't what he got.
Not every lesson or chance for growth has to be delivered from on high in a beam of heavenly light. This is a lesson that can be taught perfectly well by a board room full of greedy fucks. He's still off the board, and it's still because of something he did.
What exactly was the "reality check" here?
The corporation loses some money? This is a corporation that's been thoroughly infiltrated by the Hand from the very beginning, and which relies on the corporation as a major source of funding.
So I guess that the reality check is... Danny spending company money to help out cancer victims means less money to fund a super secret criminal organization. And also Joy and Ward get kicked out of said company controlled by criminals because of Danny's decision.
This isn't Wayne Enterprises. This isn't Queen Consolidated. This isn't even Tony Stark's weapons company.
This is basically LexCorp.
That a guy
who knows maybe a dozen people in New York by name is told by one of the small fraction of that number that he actually trusts that he fucked up her life with his actions. And this is in the midst (I'm forgetting if it's before or after) the rest of that fraction chiming in with the same sentiment on some level.
Joy's life's work is probably over because of him throwing his weight around.
Claire is being hunted by killer ninjas (again) because he refuses to stop poking the Hand.
Colleen has burned literally every bridge she has to protect him from his own bullheadedness.
Davos' home is under threat of invasion because Danny bailed on his responsibility.
If your requirements for cummuppence are Danny being destitute and bleeding out in a gutter then sure, this doesn't cut it. But his entire social net spends two episodes telling him that his entitled, naive and ham-fisted methods of approaching life have significant consequences for them. That's not nothing.
only acceptable way for her story to work is if she deliberately let herself be captured because she knew it was win win - she could leave at any time and she would let danny destroy the fake hand
otherwise the fact she goes from powerful force user to helpless old woman is too troll for words
only acceptable way for her story to work is if she deliberately let herself be captured because she knew it was win win - she could leave at any time and she would let danny destroy the fake hand
otherwise the fact she goes from powerful force user to helpless old woman is too troll for words
Danny: I'm glad to see you're finally getting what you deserve.
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Question to the martial arts people:
Was the guy doing an impression of Jackie Chan, or is that just how people think that the fighting style is supposed to look in general (in real life or movies that don't feature Jackie Chan)?
Joy tells him he's the reason they lost the company. Claire tells him he's being an unreasonable dick to Colleen just for being in a situation very similar to his own. Davos tells him he's a traitor and a loser for running out on K'un Lun in its time of need. Basically the only person who doesn't come down hard on him is Harold, and he's just openly manipulating him at that point via the faux father figure thing.
Danny catches plenty of hell for being a naive, hypocritical man-child with no sense of boundaries or respect for the agency and expertise of others.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I think that drunken style is an actual martial art, Jackie didn't invent it for that movie.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Jackie Chan is sort of the definitive touchstone for that form, cinematically. Like virtually every other fight scene, that one was an homage.
Actual Drunken Style isn't too terribly far off from that. Definitely not further than any given form of Kung Fu usually is from the Wuxia they use to portray it.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
edit: Didn't see Surrealitychecks post.
Like it looks cool when Jackie Chan does it, but I always figured trying that shit in a real fight would just get your ass beat.
But IANAMA
The only one of those examples relevant to my comment is Joy.
Just because Danny's actions inspire bad people to do bad things does not mean that the writers are trying to present Danny's actions bad in itself.
That would be like arguing, "Thawne wouldn't be inspired to kill Barry's mother if Barry wasn't a superhero, ergo, Barry being a superhero is bad."
I'm at work so I didn't check the references but according to Wikipedia it's called Zui Quan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_quan
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I still enjoy most of the fight scenes and really appreciate what they're going for. It's just the execution that suffers most of the time. When it's good, it feels good, like how Danny ought to fight. It's just not always good.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
A lot of contemporary martial arts training doesn't stand up well to sincere street fighting. Most people aren't being trained how to beat up fighters in general, just how to fight other people using the exact same style with a bunch of rules to keep anyone from getting hurt.
Not every lesson or chance for growth has to be delivered from on high in a beam of heavenly light. This is a lesson that can be taught perfectly well by a board room full of greedy fucks. He's still off the board, and it's still because of something he did.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Hence, the Donnie Yen vs. Mike Tyson seen that someone posted earlier. Where the goal was for Yen to last 3 minutes, rather than actually win.
In the real world, Yen would probably be lucky to last 20 seconds in the fight we saw from the sheer power of Mike's punches.
Because in boxing, you're not allowed to tear up your opponent's knees to win the fight.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Episode 8
Modern wushu is rooted just as much in this kind of wishful thinking as it is in any actual martial history, as it draws from things such as Chinese Opera and gymnastics just as much as it draws from actual, historical Chinese martial arts.
The "Drunken Fist" in the Jackie Chan movies is rooted in that "tradition", where it's not really a style per se so much as something inspired by legend. There are dozens of so-called "drunken" styles (some of which don't even mimic a drunk person, but rather drunk animals such as monkeys), and hundreds more forms (e.g., techniques within larger styles that themselves are not entirely based on "being drunk"), and I would argue that none of them actually exist anymore in something that would be recognizable to those historical (sometimes centuries-lost) traditions. So in a sense, the Jackie Chan (and pre-Jackie Chan) movies are the source.
If the purpose of the fight scene was to pay an homage to modern wuxia film portrayals of Drunken Fist, then they failed pretty miserably. Based entirely on watching that fight scene, I assume Philip Tan's background is probably more Japanese- or Korean-based than anything else. Either that or he is just built incorrectly (yes, that is a thing) to portray the kind of flexible, fluid movement you expect to see in a wuxia Drunken Fist. Or they just plain choreographed it poorly.
Take the guy Jackie Chan faced in the final fight scene for Drunken Master 2 (a.k.a. "Legend of the Drunken Master" in the U.S.). Ken Lo is a master martial artist and was apparently Chan's bodyguard before taking the role. And he moves like a motherfucker. But there is no credible way for someone of his skill-set (Muay Thai + Tae Kwon Do) or body type to portray the kind of wiry, whirly, dervish and off-balance flexibility that you would expect in the "Drunken Fist" style. Even if he was taught the specific moves and could physically do them, they would just look wrong. This is the same reason that gymnasts skew towards being short. Not only do they have a much higher strength-to-size ratio and can more quickly and easily pull off moves that larger people can't, but there is a large element of aesthetics that come into play. Consider that Lo is only a few inches taller than Chan, and both are below 6 feet, while Tan stands several inches above height.
The fact that someone like Tan was hired for this specific role and this specific fight speaks volumes of the lack of planning and experience that came into play for this show in general. These scenes are subpar even by straight-to-DVD standards (which know that if you are going to have a shit story, at least make the action fun and exciting).
Again, this is not so much a criticism of the actors (Jones in particular is taking a lot of flak) but a criticism of the whole production. These people should not have been hired for these roles. Period.
A final bit of venting on that fight - don't do homages to wuxia classics if you aren't going to do them justice or even pretend to care. Quick cuts and close-ups are an insult when the source material's most seminal fight scene is an 8-minute epic that is largely made up of wide-angle shots and long, uncut sequences. That fight scene took four months to shoot.
This is a slap in the face to those of us who grew up watching this stuff. You aren't doing the amount of work required. I don't care how much you claim to "love" it. Feelings are worthless without action to back them up. If you aren't going to put in the effort, then fuck you.
I thought Danny Rand's calling card was supposed to be that he was the best fighter out of the bunch, and he regularly struggles to face off the most random goons and looks like shit doing it. All you had to do was find someone who could throw a punch and put him in a basic story that wasn't complete trash, and you couldn't even do that.
I honestly expected
It explains a lot.
Fuck you to whoever is responsible for running this show. Everything from the casting to the plot to the fight choreography is full of the wrong people. Even if they hired a great choreographer I'm guessing the directors and cinematographers would have no idea how to shoot it properly.
The best parts of this show so far are everything that comes from outside of it, or everything not related to the main character.
Consider taking Ward out of this clusterfuck and making him the main character. Do you need Danny Rand or the Iron Fist? OH SHIT. YOU DON'T. WHO FUCKING KNEW.
yeah martial arts are arts and sport, not real fight training per se.
in real life when a kung fu master is confronted with a room full of baddies the master gets beaten.
Or shot, as Bruce Lee was fond of pointing out. "Why don't I just use a gun?"
they just totally failed at the production level which is really unusual for marvel
Possible Netflix interference?
In fact, it's pretty dumb that the Hand's guards don't use guns. They used guns in Daredevil.
On the Kung Fu side of Marvel, guns are for people who don't know how to fight properly. I believe there's actually a line in one of the episodes expressing exactly that sentiment.
If we're striving for realism, the idea of someone who can hear their surroundings well enough to backflip through them is probably off the table, too.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Kun lun is celestial Kong Hong, probably.
did they even have a person whose sole task was fight choreography?
on imdb theres a stunt coordinator who also did a bit but it doesnt seem like they had a main one at all...
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
But they still had guns in Daredevil. They found creative ways for Daredevil to disarm people and made the fights interesting. They should have done that in Iron Fist.
I really hope the poor way they handled guns in Iron Fist doesn't carry over to Defenders. Because with both Daredevil and Luke Cage, they should have bad guys with guns. It would be embarrassing if Iron Fist can't deal with guns.
Daredevil's not really kung fu Marvel, though. At least not in most of his series. He's Blind Batman.
I realize I might sound flippant here, but I'm being 100% serious.
Iron Fist and Daredevil end up in the same books sometimes, but for the most part they occupy two very different realities within the same comic book universe. One of those realities has people with guns that are crazy dangerous and the other one has mooks that get jump kicked through train cars that also sometimes have guns.
These are properties with very different genre conceits required to make them work. Which, at this point, I think is part of why people that loved Daredevil may not like Iron Fist at all. Because beyond even the execution errors, they're not the same on a pretty fundamental level.
Edit: I should add that I expect the Defenders to be a completely different animal yet. Since team books always are.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Theoretically Bruce Lee is actually an example of the opposite position, considering that he originally learned martial arts because he wanted to be better at gang fighting.
There's a small but important group of fighters in Marvel Comics that can basically just clownshoes anyone who pulls a gun on them, with the only real tension being the possible danger to bystanders. Danny is in it, Matt isn't.
Colleen usually is, too, depending on the writing.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Doubt it. They generally seem to be about finding creatives they like and getting out of their way. It's likely the marvel machine dropped the ball on this one.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Except that they do use guns? Frankly there's A LOT of scenes where the Hand's people use guns.
And yet...
Episode 9
Also, Episode 10
They.
Are.
In.
China.
Where carrying a gun is a giant sign saying "Come fuck my shit up government!"
What exactly was the "reality check" here?
So I guess that the reality check is... Danny spending company money to help out cancer victims means less money to fund a super secret criminal organization. And also Joy and Ward get kicked out of said company controlled by criminals because of Danny's decision.
This isn't Wayne Enterprises. This isn't Queen Consolidated. This isn't even Tony Stark's weapons company.
This is basically LexCorp.
only acceptable way for her story to work is if she deliberately let herself be captured because she knew it was win win - she could leave at any time and she would let danny destroy the fake hand
otherwise the fact she goes from powerful force user to helpless old woman is too troll for words
That a guy
Joy's life's work is probably over because of him throwing his weight around.
Claire is being hunted by killer ninjas (again) because he refuses to stop poking the Hand.
Colleen has burned literally every bridge she has to protect him from his own bullheadedness.
Davos' home is under threat of invasion because Danny bailed on his responsibility.
If your requirements for cummuppence are Danny being destitute and bleeding out in a gutter then sure, this doesn't cut it. But his entire social net spends two episodes telling him that his entitled, naive and ham-fisted methods of approaching life have significant consequences for them. That's not nothing.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Gao: Punishment is so juvenile.
Danny: At least you're the one in prison.
Gao: Is that what this is?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.