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[Starcraft Remastered] Now Live!

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Posts

  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    the romance still feels one sided for much of SCII, I think? Here's my half remembered broadstrokes read on it! :P
    obviously throughout Wings of Liberty, Kerrigan doesn't feel anything for Jim. She's the Queen of Blades, fuck Terrans. And Raynor seems hung up on the Sarah he knew years ago, not some enduring love, it's like the one that got away, she died to give birth to the Queen of Blades. And his enmity seems to be on Mengsk more than Kerrigan.

    So he's on board with the Xel'naga Artifact maybe killing her, despite Zeratul's warning that she needs to live. Sarah died a long time ago, so what is there to lose. Then at the end of the game, they're moving in to confirm her death and holy shit, she's deinfested. He's got her back, all the feelings he had years ago come flooding back, he's a hero that saved the girl of his dreams!

    Then in Heart of the Swarm, it still feels very one sided. That opening cinematic, with Jim saying "don't you give up on us!" has Sarah in a very detached, melancholy light. Raynor is so excited about running away together, but she doesn't seem to give a shit. His death upsets her, motivates her to get her power back, but it comes across as a duty thing more than a lost love - "this guy gave me another chance, I owe it to him to avenge his death." And she hates Mengsk too, win win. That chapter of the game ends with her once again parting ways with Jim, in a fashion that felt somewhat final. My favourite line, "my pleasure darling. Always was" - that's a goodbye!

    it's really only the epilogue of Void which foists their relationship on us. She gives up being an ascendant life form to smush a lowly Terran? Yeah ok...

    Oh brilliant
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    the romance still feels one sided for much of SCII, I think? Here's my half remembered broadstrokes read on it! :P
    obviously throughout Wings of Liberty, Kerrigan doesn't feel anything for Jim. She's the Queen of Blades, fuck Terrans. And Raynor seems hung up on the Sarah he knew years ago, not some enduring love, it's like the one that got away, she died to give birth to the Queen of Blades. And his enmity seems to be on Mengsk more than Kerrigan.

    So he's on board with the Xel'naga Artifact maybe killing her, despite Zeratul's warning that she needs to live. Sarah died a long time ago, so what is there to lose. Then at the end of the game, they're moving in to confirm her death and holy shit, she's deinfested. He's got her back, all the feelings he had years ago come flooding back, he's a hero that saved the girl of his dreams!

    Then in Heart of the Swarm, it still feels very one sided. That opening cinematic, with Jim saying "don't you give up on us!" has Sarah in a very detached, melancholy light. Raynor is so excited about running away together, but she doesn't seem to give a shit. His death upsets her, motivates her to get her power back, but it comes across as a duty thing more than a lost love - "this guy gave me another chance, I owe it to him to avenge his death." And she hates Mengsk too, win win. That chapter of the game ends with her once again parting ways with Jim, in a fashion that felt somewhat final. My favourite line, "my pleasure darling. Always was" - that's a goodbye!

    it's really only the epilogue of Void which foists their relationship on us. She gives up being an ascendant life form to smush a lowly Terran? Yeah ok...

    I was with you for the most part until the last line
    I don't really have a problem with it ending that way. People give up lots of things for what they think is love. Not to say it isn't in this case. Bessie's she didn't really seem to be a power hungry psychotic when she wasn't infested. We don't really know what ascendence does to influence her psychologically, presumably it does since it's mentioned many times that being zerg pushed her in various directions. I mean what is she going to do with all that power? Become Amon 2.0? Given that every other creature on that level was slaughtered it's proooobably be pretty lonely.

  • UselesswarriorUselesswarrior Registered User regular
    Another really good BW game,

    Hey I made a game, check it out @ http://ifallingrobot.com/. (Or don't, your call)
    MMMig
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2017
    Day9 talks about Starcraft Remastered. I really like the point he makes here, about Brood War being a game that is, at the core, not a strategy game. He talks about how your Starcraft mechanics are not some boring barrier to overcome and learn so that you can then play the "real Starcraft", but are in fact themselves, Starcraft.

    (But watch the video, there's a lot more to it than that and he talks about some really cool stuff that happened in BW like the rise of Corsair/DT)

    Dhalphir on
    Lord_Asmodeus3clipseXerinkKoopahTroopahUselesswarriorVariableMvrckKristmas Kthulhu
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    I remember seeing that exact argument before, but not from day9. It makes sense but at least for me is difficult to get your head around, mostly because of built up preconceptions.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2017
    I remember seeing that exact argument before, but not from day9. It makes sense but at least for me is difficult to get your head around, mostly because of built up preconceptions.

    It's because of two competing myths which people take to their extreme.

    Myth 1 - Mechanics are the most important thing in Starcraft.

    This is actually true, to a certain extent. Mechanics are far more important than strategy. You can win without strategy if your fundamentals are good. You can't win without fundamentals, even if your strategy is good. However, people take it too far, and actually suggest winning with fundamentals only as a desirable and good way to learn the game. I even fell into this trap myself from time to time.

    Myth 2 - Mechanics are boring, having to click a billion times a second isn't fun and isn't real Starcraft.

    Mechanics ARE Starcraft. Half of the challenge of Starcraft is the real time aspect, if you only had to worry about strategy, you wouldn't be playing Starcraft.

    Dhalphir on
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    One of the most interesting things to me was that the ladder games locked the speed at two (i think) clicks below what the game allowed for. So the game was purposely slowed down in competitive play so people could actually micro their units instead of everything playing out at light speed with no hope of moving 150 supply worth of units together with a selection cap of 12.

    3ds FC: 0645 - 7166 - 9801
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    One of the most interesting things to me was that the ladder games locked the speed at two (i think) clicks below what the game allowed for. So the game was purposely slowed down in competitive play so people could actually micro their units instead of everything playing out at light speed with no hope of moving 150 supply worth of units together with a selection cap of 12.

    Are you sure? Because ICCUP games were definitely always played at the Fastest setting. You're referring to default ladder, I assume?

    VariableMMMig
  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    I remember seeing that exact argument before, but not from day9. It makes sense but at least for me is difficult to get your head around, mostly because of built up preconceptions.

    It honestly might have been from Day9, I've seen him say the same thing repeatedly over the years (dear god have I really been watching him since two thousand and fucking nine?)

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    edited April 2017
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    One of the most interesting things to me was that the ladder games locked the speed at two (i think) clicks below what the game allowed for. So the game was purposely slowed down in competitive play so people could actually micro their units instead of everything playing out at light speed with no hope of moving 150 supply worth of units together with a selection cap of 12.

    Are you sure? Because ICCUP games were definitely always played at the Fastest setting. You're referring to default ladder, I assume?

    Yeah, serious Brood War wasn't played on b.net ladder, it was played on iCCup servers.

    TheStig on
    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
    MMMig
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    A point made on the SBFC when this was announced was that Brood War's appeal today is that the balance is 'set' and they're never gonna tweak a value here or there ever again, making the rules of the game a permanent fixture, like Chess. You know the knight makes an L shape move, just like you know a Marine has a movement speed of 2.9 (I had to look that up)

    It's cool to think the end of 'support' is in fact a feature to most people.

    Oh brilliant
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2017
    A point made on the SBFC when this was announced was that Brood War's appeal today is that the balance is 'set' and they're never gonna tweak a value here or there ever again, making the rules of the game a permanent fixture, like Chess. You know the knight makes an L shape move, just like you know a Marine has a movement speed of 2.9 (I had to look that up)

    It's cool to think the end of 'support' is in fact a feature to most people.

    That was always Brood War's appeal, to a degree. Blizzard stopped patching BW long before the pro scene really took off. That meant that, unlike Starcraft 2, nobody spent energy appealing to Blizzard for balance changes. People largely just knuckled down and worked shit out, and what ranting there was about balance was largely restricted to just venting after a loss, nobody really thought the game should be patched.

    And that's how you got badass shit like Bisu shifting the Protoss vs Zerg matchup from 55% Zerg winrate to 55% Protoss winrate by inventing one strategy.

    Instead with SC2 you got stuff like Broodlord/Infestor dominating a matchup for three months and people calling it the end of days even though the winrate for Zerg in the matchup was at about 52%.

    Dhalphir on
    Variable
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    A point made on the SBFC when this was announced was that Brood War's appeal today is that the balance is 'set' and they're never gonna tweak a value here or there ever again, making the rules of the game a permanent fixture, like Chess. You know the knight makes an L shape move, just like you know a Marine has a movement speed of 2.9 (I had to look that up)

    It's cool to think the end of 'support' is in fact a feature to most people.

    That was always Brood War's appeal, to a degree. Blizzard stopped patching BW long before the pro scene really took off. That meant that, unlike Starcraft 2, nobody spent energy appealing to Blizzard for balance changes. People largely just knuckled down and worked shit out, and what ranting there was about balance was largely restricted to just venting after a loss, nobody really thought the game should be patched.

    And that's how you got badass shit like Bisu shifting the Protoss vs Zerg matchup from 55% Zerg winrate to 55% Protoss winrate by inventing one strategy.

    Instead with SC2 you got stuff like Broodlord/Infestor dominating a matchup for three months and people calling it the end of days even though the winrate for Zerg in the matchup was at about 52%.

    i came into SC2 right around the BL+infestor height. i don't have any idea what the scene looked like when that shift you described happened but was the competitive scene comparable to SC2 at the time of BL+infestor? i ask because if professional players with money on the line were "struggling" (which is something that would have to be defined) with a particular strategy "figure it out" isn't always an acceptable answer. it happens in pretty much every game i play, pros and designers can clash as to what is appropriate or not and of course what is or isnt an appropriate time frame/indicator of a problem.

    that seems to be a consistent criticism of SC2, the focus on the overall winrate in matchups and not the nuance between things. its entirely possible for soemthing to be a perfectly 50/50 matchup and still be a miserable experience or "unbalanced" in very specific ways (coming down to luck etc).

    i get the argument of people being tough, rugged pioneers of strategy and tactics. still being alone in the wilderness with zero support isn't spectacular either. i'd rather have some middle ground.

  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited April 2017
    TheStig wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    One of the most interesting things to me was that the ladder games locked the speed at two (i think) clicks below what the game allowed for. So the game was purposely slowed down in competitive play so people could actually micro their units instead of everything playing out at light speed with no hope of moving 150 supply worth of units together with a selection cap of 12.

    Are you sure? Because ICCUP games were definitely always played at the Fastest setting. You're referring to default ladder, I assume?

    Yeah, serious Brood War wasn't played on b.net ladder, it was played on iCCup servers.

    Ya. Ladder was never taken seriously as soon as bots took over. You could easily see the top rankings were all bots for the first like 400 spots or more.

    You would have to go to the iccup server and have those s, a, b, c and d logos next to your username. Or some mmr number as well.

    Always play on fastest.

    MMMig on
    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
    3clipse
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    Part of the patching thing though was that Blizzard released two expansions for SC2 that both changed units and implemented new ones, as well as the number of starting workers thing. Brood War was just one expansion and they didnt keep reinventing the wheel with more stuff. Comparing the launch of SC2 with BW kind of doesn't work, because there were years and two expansions for things to evolve while balance was upended every time one of those expansions launched. Now that legacy is out, things will eventually settle numbers-wise and the two metagames can be looked at a little better.

    3ds FC: 0645 - 7166 - 9801
    WingedWeasel
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    @WingedWeasel Yes, Protoss widely considered the Zerg vs Protoss matchup to be super imbalanced in favour of Zerg, both the pro and ladder winrates reflected that, and it was widely considered the case that Protoss had to do some sort of cheese to gain an early advantage just to bring the game to an evenly matched state, and Zerg eventually would overwhelm them if they did not get this early advantage, even if they played perfectly. It was almost the identical feeling as that which permeated the PvZ matchup around Broodlord Infestor time.

    Then Bisu comes in and flips the matchup on its head in the span of a single 3-0 series.

    3clipseMvrckMMMig
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    @WingedWeasel Yes, Protoss widely considered the Zerg vs Protoss matchup to be super imbalanced in favour of Zerg, both the pro and ladder winrates reflected that, and it was widely considered the case that Protoss had to do some sort of cheese to gain an early advantage just to bring the game to an evenly matched state, and Zerg eventually would overwhelm them if they did not get this early advantage, even if they played perfectly. It was almost the identical feeling as that which permeated the PvZ matchup around Broodlord Infestor time.

    Then Bisu comes in and flips the matchup on its head in the span of a single 3-0 series.

    i get it, but that dosent mean BL+infestor was answerable with the appropriate tools (not saying it wasnt either). my primary question was what the pro scene for BW looked like at the time. obviously common knowledge was that zerg was favored. however was there a bg scene with an incentive on the line (aka a lot of money)

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2017
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    @WingedWeasel Yes, Protoss widely considered the Zerg vs Protoss matchup to be super imbalanced in favour of Zerg, both the pro and ladder winrates reflected that, and it was widely considered the case that Protoss had to do some sort of cheese to gain an early advantage just to bring the game to an evenly matched state, and Zerg eventually would overwhelm them if they did not get this early advantage, even if they played perfectly. It was almost the identical feeling as that which permeated the PvZ matchup around Broodlord Infestor time.

    Then Bisu comes in and flips the matchup on its head in the span of a single 3-0 series.

    i get it, but that dosent mean BL+infestor was answerable with the appropriate tools (not saying it wasnt either). my primary question was what the pro scene for BW looked like at the time. obviously common knowledge was that zerg was favored. however was there a bg scene with an incentive on the line (aka a lot of money)

    Yes.

    The prize pool for the 2007 MSL that Bisu won was just under $130k, and salaries were also rising at that time. That prize pool ranks just outside the top 50 all time for all eSports tournaments.

    http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments/largest-individual-tournaments

    Dhalphir on
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    ah ok. i know virtually nothing about the BW scene hence the curiousity

    Dhalphir
  • UselesswarriorUselesswarrior Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    @WingedWeasel Yes, Protoss widely considered the Zerg vs Protoss matchup to be super imbalanced in favour of Zerg, both the pro and ladder winrates reflected that, and it was widely considered the case that Protoss had to do some sort of cheese to gain an early advantage just to bring the game to an evenly matched state, and Zerg eventually would overwhelm them if they did not get this early advantage, even if they played perfectly. It was almost the identical feeling as that which permeated the PvZ matchup around Broodlord Infestor time.

    Then Bisu comes in and flips the matchup on its head in the span of a single 3-0 series.

    Can someone post this famous series?

    Hey I made a game, check it out @ http://ifallingrobot.com/. (Or don't, your call)
  • UselesswarriorUselesswarrior Registered User regular
    I wonder if the Brood War API will still work on the new client.

    Writing an AI player for Brood Wars is on my bucket list. I'd think that would be a better use of my time then actually getting good at the game.

    Hey I made a game, check it out @ http://ifallingrobot.com/. (Or don't, your call)
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    @WingedWeasel Yes, Protoss widely considered the Zerg vs Protoss matchup to be super imbalanced in favour of Zerg, both the pro and ladder winrates reflected that, and it was widely considered the case that Protoss had to do some sort of cheese to gain an early advantage just to bring the game to an evenly matched state, and Zerg eventually would overwhelm them if they did not get this early advantage, even if they played perfectly. It was almost the identical feeling as that which permeated the PvZ matchup around Broodlord Infestor time.

    Then Bisu comes in and flips the matchup on its head in the span of a single 3-0 series.

    Can someone post this famous series?

    Commentary by Day9 and NonY





    3clipseUselesswarriorkimeVariableMMMigDark Raven XLord_Asmodeus
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    I wonder if the Brood War API will still work on the new client.

    Writing an AI player for Brood Wars is on my bucket list. I'd think that would be a better use of my time then actually getting good at the game.

    Yes, it will - people with the old Brood War can play with people with the new client, and you can toggle back and forth literally at will during a game, so everything should still work fine.

  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    This is some like, 1920s casting technology here, yo.

    MMMigUselesswarriorMrVyngaardLord_Asmodeus
  • UselesswarriorUselesswarrior Registered User regular
    4K remaster?

    How about a 240p cast.

    I think that mass of pixels is a zealot.

    Hey I made a game, check it out @ http://ifallingrobot.com/. (Or don't, your call)
  • FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    4K remaster?

    How about a 240p cast.

    I think that mass of pixels is a zealot.

    Back then it was that or nothing. Usually you couldn't even get english commentary, most of the time you had to settle for some second hand stream of the korean broadcast.

    MMMigDhalphir
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    wow, i thought people were joking as i only saw the stills from the videos. just tried to watch.

    wow

    kime
  • FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    wow, i thought people were joking as i only saw the stills from the videos. just tried to watch.

    wow

    Following professional broodwar was pretty damn hard in the west! It helped that brood wars graphics work pretty well in awful resolutions.

  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    edited April 2017
    Streaming of games online was pretty shitty just a few years ago. The first competition I recall watching live was Evo 2009.
    Back when Twitch was still Justin TV. This video doesn't capture all the disconnects and reloads required to watch at the same time as like 90k other people because the server couldn't take it. Also if you recall in the SC2 beta (2010?) we had HD StarCraft. That guy who got famous posting 1080 quality videos of SC2 beta, because having the hardware to do something like that was so rare.

    Were the SC1 matches even streamed? Or were they all uploaded after the fact?

    TheStig on
    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    I remember listening to Company of Heroes casts made by our very own TychoCelchuu (I think he's retired from these forums though), by downloading an MP3 and a game replay, and then syncing them myself.

    And I thought that was an amazing innovation. Games with a built-in replay system?! No more watching a video of a video of a Starcraft game at 240p, with Korean being spoken in the background and random cuts to the audience at times? WOWOWOWOWOW.

  • 3clipse3clipse I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    TheStig wrote: »
    Streaming of games online was pretty shitty just a few years ago. The first competition I recall watching live was Evo 2009.
    Back when Twitch was still Justin TV. This video doesn't capture all the disconnects and reloads required to watch at the same time as like 90k other people because the server couldn't take it. Also if you recall in the SC2 beta (2010?) we had HD StarCraft. That guy who got famous posting 1080 quality videos of SC2 beta, because having the hardware to do something like that was so rare.

    Were the SC1 matches even streamed? Or were they all uploaded after the fact?

    At least some of them were streamed, Day[9] has stories about setting up public events to watch games in Korea.

    I mean, I'd take Nick Offerman's spikey cat dick willingly
  • CauldCauld Registered User regular
    3clipse wrote: »
    TheStig wrote: »
    Streaming of games online was pretty shitty just a few years ago. The first competition I recall watching live was Evo 2009.
    Back when Twitch was still Justin TV. This video doesn't capture all the disconnects and reloads required to watch at the same time as like 90k other people because the server couldn't take it. Also if you recall in the SC2 beta (2010?) we had HD StarCraft. That guy who got famous posting 1080 quality videos of SC2 beta, because having the hardware to do something like that was so rare.

    Were the SC1 matches even streamed? Or were they all uploaded after the fact?

    At least some of them were streamed, Day[9] has stories about setting up public events to watch games in Korea.

    I remember watching livestreams of some events in korean. There would be a translator in chat. I also remember TSL2, I think, there were no livestreams. To see the results you would have to download the VODs, which they released as torrents. I remember refreshing like crazy around the time of day when VODs were released and then being one of the first ppl in the torrent swarm.... It really wasn't all that long ago!

    I remember that there were a ton of different sites before justintv/twitch came to dominate. I think livestream was the first I watched on, then ustream got big and then justin.tv which then rebranded to twitch.tv. It's crazy that twitch sold itself to amazon for $1 Billion, only a couple years after that. I'm not sure streaming videogames would have caught on nearly as quickly without the broodwar pro scene.

  • CauldCauld Registered User regular
    I just installed it again. If anyone wants to play, I have the same id there. I was never very good and haven't played in years...

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Surprised they didn't add this to their game
    launcher.

    Uselesswarrior
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    Surprised they didn't add this to their game
    launcher.

    the old starcraft isn't compatible since it runs on b.net 1.0

    i don't think they mentioned any integration with 2.0 for remastered. have they?

  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    they also dont let you pick where it's installed, so you have to move it after...

    3ds FC: 0645 - 7166 - 9801
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Surprised they didn't add this to their game
    launcher.

    the old starcraft isn't compatible since it runs on b.net 1.0

    i don't think they mentioned any integration with 2.0 for remastered. have they?

    They haven't, but they are having a lot of other non gameplay quality of life changes to the game, so it's not impossible

  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Surprised they didn't add this to their game
    launcher.

    the old starcraft isn't compatible since it runs on b.net 1.0

    i don't think they mentioned any integration with 2.0 for remastered. have they?

    They haven't, but they are having a lot of other non gameplay quality of life changes to the game, so it's not impossible

    i certainly hope they do

    KoopahTroopah
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Is anyone else getting the BLZBNTBTS0000004A error?

    g38gx1f4xkbv.jpg
    Pretty much everything else Blizzard works on my computer, but I keep getting this error message when I try to use the installer.

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