Anyone know of any alternatives to Necrosis? I just got back into the game, and I wanna use something different. Necrosis seemed to be a resource hog, and hasn't been updated in quite some time.
I keep being really tempted to respec affliction for awhile. BT/Hyjal gear urges you toward destruction, but the fights we've done so far are SO affliction-friendly, it's dumb.
Wait what? I was going to respec destro now that we're starting tier 6. I'm hesitant since I'm already one of the highest in threat (not counting lame rogue and hunters) as affliction on CoS. And I'm threat capped if anyone but our MT or druid tank is tanking. Vashj's crit trinket hasn't dropped, and if it does I'm not leading dkp for it anyways.
Should I stay affliction until we get the first two Hyjal bosses down? If I stay affliction we can keep a second malediction for the mages since most re-spec'd out of arcane now.
Also, how does destro play out on the trash waves? I imagine so much of it is threat capped, or should I not even worry about it? Don't I just Seed of Corruption them anyways?
Who exactly rolls on that threat trinket? It's dropped twice so far for our guild and nobody wanted it either time.
And on the trash waves in Hyjal, all that stuff is tauntable, single target dps something down (get someone nominated a ranged main assist and have everyone follow his target) until it's time to AoE. You can't worry about stopping DPS for threat on the AoE spam, you're on the clock to get everything dead in 90 seconds and all those ghouls need to be gone by then. Once AoE is called for, just keep throwing seeds until you pull, then walk the mobs back to the tanks and start again. Ghouls only melee for about 2k apiece, you won't die immediately unless you pull like 5, and then you either started AoE too early or your tanks suck.
I keep being really tempted to respec affliction for awhile. BT/Hyjal gear urges you toward destruction, but the fights we've done so far are SO affliction-friendly, it's dumb.
Wait what? I was going to respec destro now that we're starting tier 6. I'm hesitant since I'm already one of the highest in threat (not counting lame rogue and hunters) as affliction on CoS. And I'm threat capped if anyone but our MT or druid tank is tanking. Vashj's crit trinket hasn't dropped, and if it does I'm not leading dkp for it anyways.
Should I stay affliction until we get the first two Hyjal bosses down? If I stay affliction we can keep a second malediction for the mages since most re-spec'd out of arcane now.
Also, how does destro play out on the trash waves? I imagine so much of it is threat capped, or should I not even worry about it? Don't I just Seed of Corruption them anyways?
Destro threat isn't an issue, really really. Or it shouldn't be. Get a better MT? >.> The only times I have to really watch threat are gimmick shit like Leotheras or VR.
I think either spec would be fine, it's not like "hit tier 6 and spec destro or you fail." Affliction has some really useful stuff, for the raid and yourself. We usually run with two locks of each spec, and while I destroy them on "stand still and DPS" fights like Al'ar, it's pretty close on most things. Lots of movement = affliction does really well.
Trash is all AOE generally, yeah. We usually single-target one mob to give the tanks some time to grab it all, and then just seed away.
riz on
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
Anyone know of any alternatives to Necrosis? I just got back into the game, and I wanna use something different. Necrosis seemed to be a resource hog, and hasn't been updated in quite some time.
I use LunarSpheres, which has the added benefit of being entirely configurable for any class. It is the best thing ever.
Should I stay affliction until we get the first two Hyjal bosses down? If I stay affliction we can keep a second malediction for the mages since most re-spec'd out of arcane now.
Should I stay affliction until we get the first two Hyjal bosses down? If I stay affliction we can keep a second malediction for the mages since most re-spec'd out of arcane now.
Wait...CoS & CoE stack?
Er when two different warlocks cast them. One curse per warlock.
I drain tanked a 70 MS warrior at 64 with the build. His MS didn't seem to affect my drains.
Check the 2.3 patch notes and try that one again. MS / wound poison and Aimed shot all effect drains and Siphon life.
Spec demo for lving, pve, and pvp. Demo (full demo) is the best in dmg and survivability. The FG really doesn't die too offten as long as you have a Spriest or a decent holy priest that uses PoM. The FGs dmg is far higher then any dot combinations as long as you have battleshout and Blessing of Might. A decently geared Demo lock in full raid buffs should hit like 2k +shadow and his FG should cap around 2500 AP. If you use a staff instead of a MH / OH your FG will get bonus cleave dmg (it's based on YOUR wep dmg) and most of your aggro will be passed to him anyway (this means you can spam your dmg and most of your threat will STILL be on the FG; as will about 30% dmg).
sorry didn't mean to rant or wall of text....but DEMO FTW!!.
Eh, I never instanced with a Felguard, but I found him sorely lacking for levelling. Health funnel is absolute shit, and he takes too much damage to have such a terrible heal. Meanwhile you either have slow nukes, or you lack efficiency on life tap and the huge mana boost from imp. drain soul. I would try out the Felguard on my warlock now at 70, except that he still has so many quests to do and money to earn for an epic flying mount.
Eh, I never instanced with a Felguard, but I found him sorely lacking for levelling. Health funnel is absolute shit, and he takes too much damage to have such a terrible heal. Meanwhile you either have slow nukes, or you lack efficiency on life tap and the huge mana boost from imp. drain soul. I would try out the Felguard on my warlock now at 70, except that he still has so many quests to do and money to earn for an epic flying mount.
I fooled around with a felguard spec last night, doing some BGs and farming some shards. It was kind of fun; I was ridiculously sturdy even with shit for pvp gear (which mostly consists of old socketed gear with steady talasites in every slot), and it was nice being able to finally deal those last 500 points of damage to those rogues who pop Cloak of Shadows just before they die, but I've got a hunter alt that I'm trying to level up if I wanted to play like that on a regular basis.
Eh, I never instanced with a Felguard, but I found him sorely lacking for levelling. Health funnel is absolute shit, and he takes too much damage to have such a terrible heal. Meanwhile you either have slow nukes, or you lack efficiency on life tap and the huge mana boost from imp. drain soul. I would try out the Felguard on my warlock now at 70, except that he still has so many quests to do and money to earn for an epic flying mount.
The FG is far more efficent then anything else. AS long as you have 2 pts in mana feed. If you use only one pt in mana feed then yeah he'll be kinda crappy, alas, for pvp i have to have only one pt in mana feed so grinding can become a BIT bothersome but just a bit. When i grind in my pvp gear i can easily farm 4-5 enemies at a time, letting one or 2 be tanked by thootom. I use cleave and no anguish till he is oom, then I use anguish and no cleave, my regular 2 dot drain rotation keeps me and him both full on mana and hp most of the time. Every 4th - 6th mob i have to use health funnle, which isn't shit at all if you have decent spell dmg. I sit at exactly 1k in my full pvp set and he heals almost 400 per tick....10 seconds out of every minute, usually while i'm killing something, in order to keep him up isn't really and issue for me. And as far as pvp goes, i've beaten a million locks, mages, priests, huntards, pallys..not druids FUCK ROOTS, just by leaving my FG on them when i run away.
He doesn't really die that fast in arenas unless he is completly focused, and let me tell you, if it's a melee class i'd WAY rather my shammy healed him with his 9k armor then me with my 2k ...also if he gets focused I can spam SB and fear uninterupted.
Once again sorry for the text, just saying you should L2 demo at 70 with REAL pvp gear before questioning it. Demo is both the most gear forgiving and gear dependent.
I didn't question it for pvp at all, but for levelling. When I tried it, several times around lvl 60-64, it didn't impress me. Mana Feed? That's for keeping your pet dps up, that wasn't my problem. My problem was dotting and bolting enemies, losing mana too quickly and not being able to regain it well because of poor drains, meanwhile my Felguard is taking damage too quickly for my awful health funnel to replace efficiently. If I'm not sitting there funneling forever(and this was after the funnel change) to get him up from 10% hp, then I'm sitting still for even longer to bandage to regain that lost hp. Meanwhile affliction does high damage, with the absolute best ways to regain health and mana.
I don't particularly like grinding with a felguard, but the trick there is to just resummon him when his health gets low. Health funnely is failure.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited December 2007
I leveled heavy affliction, raided some of kara as heavy affliction, and swapped to raiding felguard later on.
Nothing matches smart affliction farming, unless you're fighting red mobs or mobs that are immune to fear. Once you get improved howl of terror you can pull 3-4 melee mobs and take very few hits. The only problem is running around to collect the loot from corpses. Sure, you might pull some extra adds with the fear, but that only seemed to speed up the process in my experience.
The felguard appears to be unbeatable for single target dps. I can't find anyone that can beat me (or another build that does better that isn't ultimately the same build), and it's a fairly simple rotation with 1/43/17 or something similar. I personally think you need either fel concentration or intensity, but that's a personal thing -- if you don't like it you could take the destruction range talent or fill out devastation and demonic tactics too. I don't think there's a huge difference overall, the importance of talents changes between encounters.
Note that #2 warlock, 0/21/40, uses curse of doom/agony and I use curse of elements. We were both in separate groups, but each had a single beastmastery hunter.
I'd say hey, here's some evidence that felguard is better, but tiernon still had a higher miss rate on shadowbolt than I did even with his better hit rating. Meh sample I guess, even though it's only a 1% difference.
Tukufu is affliction with 940 unbuffed shadow damage and 191ish hit, but he has malediction and has the tank's imp so no one can really argue with that.
Still, curse of doom made up 15% of Tiernon's damage...
Gruul is incredibly biased towards pet classes for DPS. Everybody else spends a ton of time running around during ground slam, or getting out of cave-ins, meanwhile the pets just keep hammering away. Our hunters that are typically nowhere near the top 10 in DPS manage to dominate the top spots on gruul, due almost entirely to ground slam.
I would think affliction would be great there, as you've got 5 DoTs ticking away while you're running. 5 DoTs that I would think, would outpace the dps of the Felguard, who has to be constantly watched to not attack from the front.
On stationary bosses like gruul, pets seem like they do a pretty decent job of getting around to the rear. On fights with more movement, not so much.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
0
kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited December 2007
on the contrary, cave in fucks up pets something fierce at gruul
flaadhun certainly wasn't in melee range for the duration of the fight, and the "get behind the monster" ai they implemented for pets actually completely sucks for fights where there's this cave in that you want to avoid.
I drain tanked a 70 MS warrior at 64 with the build. His MS didn't seem to affect my drains.
Check the 2.3 patch notes and try that one again. MS / wound poison and Aimed shot all effect drains and Siphon life.
Spec demo for lving, pve, and pvp. Demo (full demo) is the best in dmg and survivability. The FG really doesn't die too offten as long as you have a Spriest or a decent holy priest that uses PoM. The FGs dmg is far higher then any dot combinations as long as you have battleshout and Blessing of Might. A decently geared Demo lock in full raid buffs should hit like 2k +shadow and his FG should cap around 2500 AP. If you use a staff instead of a MH / OH your FG will get bonus cleave dmg (it's based on YOUR wep dmg) and most of your aggro will be passed to him anyway (this means you can spam your dmg and most of your threat will STILL be on the FG; as will about 30% dmg).
sorry didn't mean to rant or wall of text....but DEMO FTW!!.
I would think affliction would be great there, as you've got 5 DoTs ticking away while you're running. 5 DoTs that I would think, would outpace the dps of the Felguard, who has to be constantly watched to not attack from the front.
The pet AI has changed so that they will always try to attack from the back, even if you'd rather they didn't. It's a blessing and a curse, as kaleedity has pointed out.
And I've never really bought into the notion that being able to keep dots ticking while you're scurrying around and hiding was such an advantage to affliction. Unless you're able to use the time you are forced to move to refresh your curse or your instant dots, you're still losing casting time that would have gone into casting non-instant dots or shadowbolts if you had been allowed to stand still and nuke, so movement still causes you to lose dps. Now on some fights, you spend so much time running around that it is a definite edge (Void Reaver, Lady Vashj Phase 3), but on Gruul, the affliction lock, the shadowbolt spammer, and the felguard lock all spend roughly the same number of global cooldowns casting and the same number of global cooldowns hiding behind a rock and not casting, while the felguard lock also gets to have his pet wail on gruul during the downtime. If you didn't have to be constantly watching gruul's ass for cave-ins, that fight would definitely favor a demo lock over the other two specs.
I drain tanked a 70 MS warrior at 64 with the build. His MS didn't seem to affect my drains.
Check the 2.3 patch notes and try that one again. MS / wound poison and Aimed shot all effect drains and Siphon life.
Spec demo for lving, pve, and pvp. Demo (full demo) is the best in dmg and survivability. The FG really doesn't die too offten as long as you have a Spriest or a decent holy priest that uses PoM. The FGs dmg is far higher then any dot combinations as long as you have battleshout and Blessing of Might. A decently geared Demo lock in full raid buffs should hit like 2k +shadow and his FG should cap around 2500 AP. If you use a staff instead of a MH / OH your FG will get bonus cleave dmg (it's based on YOUR wep dmg) and most of your aggro will be passed to him anyway (this means you can spam your dmg and most of your threat will STILL be on the FG; as will about 30% dmg).
sorry didn't mean to rant or wall of text....but DEMO FTW!!.
The felguard's damage is based on your weapon?
I've never heard that.
not his dmg, but his CLEAVE dmg is. You lose minimal spell dmg / hit and what not by using a staff but the FG gains at least 100 base on cleaves, usually more (depending on the staff). Cleave, in pvp especially, is a large part of the FGs dmg if you use a staff he'll do a lot more then if you use a MH OH combo. The lost in spell dmg is as i said minimal and usually you gain something else to counter the loss.
And I've never really bought into the notion that being able to keep dots ticking while you're scurrying around and hiding was such an advantage to affliction. Unless you're able to use the time you are forced to move to refresh your curse or your instant dots, you're still losing casting time that would have gone into casting non-instant dots or shadowbolts if you had been allowed to stand still and nuke, so movement still causes you to lose dps.
No one's saying you don't lose dps. But dots make up such a massive portion of your damage, and at least if there's any sort of warning about when you have to start moving, you can make sure that you're losing very little of your DoT damage. Meanwhile a Felguard spec, I would bet, has a noticeably higher portion of it's dps coming from nuking.
I drain tanked a 70 MS warrior at 64 with the build. His MS didn't seem to affect my drains.
Check the 2.3 patch notes and try that one again. MS / wound poison and Aimed shot all effect drains and Siphon life.
Spec demo for lving, pve, and pvp. Demo (full demo) is the best in dmg and survivability. The FG really doesn't die too offten as long as you have a Spriest or a decent holy priest that uses PoM. The FGs dmg is far higher then any dot combinations as long as you have battleshout and Blessing of Might. A decently geared Demo lock in full raid buffs should hit like 2k +shadow and his FG should cap around 2500 AP. If you use a staff instead of a MH / OH your FG will get bonus cleave dmg (it's based on YOUR wep dmg) and most of your aggro will be passed to him anyway (this means you can spam your dmg and most of your threat will STILL be on the FG; as will about 30% dmg).
sorry didn't mean to rant or wall of text....but DEMO FTW!!.
The felguard's damage is based on your weapon?
I've never heard that.
not his dmg, but his CLEAVE dmg is. You lose minimal spell dmg / hit and what not by using a staff but the FG gains at least 100 base on cleaves, usually more (depending on the staff). Cleave, in pvp especially, is a large part of the FGs dmg if you use a staff he'll do a lot more then if you use a MH OH combo. The lost in spell dmg is as i said minimal and usually you gain something else to counter the loss.
Can you cite testing that backs this up? I know any number of stathead warlocks, and I've never heard that you should use a staff when you've got the felguard out.
Also, WRT affliction on mobility fights, it definitely helps. I led our raid's DPS on our first supremus kill by a pretty wide margin (posted the WWS one of the other threads), which isn't something that usually happens. Any boss fight with multiple targets or a lot of movement is going to help all the DoT classes, and affliction's the DoT king.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I drain tanked a 70 MS warrior at 64 with the build. His MS didn't seem to affect my drains.
Check the 2.3 patch notes and try that one again. MS / wound poison and Aimed shot all effect drains and Siphon life.
Spec demo for lving, pve, and pvp. Demo (full demo) is the best in dmg and survivability. The FG really doesn't die too offten as long as you have a Spriest or a decent holy priest that uses PoM. The FGs dmg is far higher then any dot combinations as long as you have battleshout and Blessing of Might. A decently geared Demo lock in full raid buffs should hit like 2k +shadow and his FG should cap around 2500 AP. If you use a staff instead of a MH / OH your FG will get bonus cleave dmg (it's based on YOUR wep dmg) and most of your aggro will be passed to him anyway (this means you can spam your dmg and most of your threat will STILL be on the FG; as will about 30% dmg).
sorry didn't mean to rant or wall of text....but DEMO FTW!!.
The felguard's damage is based on your weapon?
I've never heard that.
not his dmg, but his CLEAVE dmg is. You lose minimal spell dmg / hit and what not by using a staff but the FG gains at least 100 base on cleaves, usually more (depending on the staff). Cleave, in pvp especially, is a large part of the FGs dmg if you use a staff he'll do a lot more then if you use a MH OH combo. The lost in spell dmg is as i said minimal and usually you gain something else to counter the loss.
Can you cite testing that backs this up? I know any number of stathead warlocks, and I've never heard that you should use a staff when you've got the felguard out.
Also, WRT affliction on mobility fights, it definitely helps. I led our raid's DPS on our first supremus kill by a pretty wide margin (posted the WWS one of the other threads), which isn't something that usually happens. Any boss fight with multiple targets or a lot of movement is going to help all the DoT classes, and affliction's the DoT king.
Read the tooltip for cleave, it says YOUR weapon dmg +76, or something like that. Also i have done tests with a few lock friends of mine, but i don't have substantial numbers to back it up. I just know that S3 staff > all else for pvp
You're not very bright, "Your weapon damage" is as if the felguard were reading it. Avoidance says "Increases your chance to avoid area of effect attacks by an additional 50%." does that mean your Warlock gets a better chance to dodge AoE attacks? No. Your felguard's weapon damage is modified by your Spell Damage (gives him more AP, gives more weapon damage)
You're not very bright, "Your weapon damage" is as if the felguard were reading it. Avoidance says "Increases your chance to avoid area of effect attacks by an additional 50%." does that mean your Warlock gets a better chance to dodge AoE attacks? No. Your felguard's weapon damage is modified by your Spell Damage (gives him more AP, gives more weapon damage)
lol, think as you will, when i get home tonight i'll try to grab another lock with similar gear but using a MH / OH combo and test it out.
Also my FG doesn't have a wep, he has atk power and just atk power. There is absolutely no "weapon" for him to base an attack off of. You can't increase weapon dmg through my spell dmg, you can only increase his atk power. There is also no set base weapon dmg for him, else it would be listed in his pet page. I'm pretty positive though that his cleaves are based on my weapon dmg.
Like I said before, i don't have a way to prove it but i have checked before against a few other locks and from what i've seen this is the case.
W/E though the S3 staff is still the best choice for gear in S3 because of the spell pen.
You're not very bright, "Your weapon damage" is as if the felguard were reading it. Avoidance says "Increases your chance to avoid area of effect attacks by an additional 50%." does that mean your Warlock gets a better chance to dodge AoE attacks? No. Your felguard's weapon damage is modified by your Spell Damage (gives him more AP, gives more weapon damage)
lol, think as you will, when i get home tonight i'll try to grab another lock with similar gear but using a MH / OH combo and test it out.
Also my FG doesn't have a wep, he has atk power and just atk power. There is absolutely no "weapon" for him to base an attack off of. You can't increase weapon dmg through my spell dmg, you can only increase his atk power. There is also no set base weapon dmg for him, else it would be listed in his pet page. I'm pretty positive though that his cleaves are based on my weapon dmg.
Like I said before, i don't have a way to prove it but i have checked before against a few other locks and from what i've seen this is the case.
W/E though the S3 staff is still the best choice for gear in S3 because of the spell pen.
Have you ever played a melee class? No? I didn't think so, because skills that do "weapon damage" are counted as your actual weapon's damage + the damage your attack power gives you. Your felguard has a weapon, it's a giant fucking axe. If he had 0 attack power he would still have this base weapon damage. Same with a lvl 1 character and their fists if they had no attack power they'd still do 1-2 damage. So you can "think as you will" because I know I am right no matter what your un-scientific "testing" will "prove".
It's not complicated. Weapon damage, is whatever you see in your character screen melee tooltip. It fluctuates on Attack Power, but it will show a damage range, as well as a speed, and that's your weapon damage.
You're not very bright, "Your weapon damage" is as if the felguard were reading it. Avoidance says "Increases your chance to avoid area of effect attacks by an additional 50%." does that mean your Warlock gets a better chance to dodge AoE attacks? No. Your felguard's weapon damage is modified by your Spell Damage (gives him more AP, gives more weapon damage)
lol, think as you will, when i get home tonight i'll try to grab another lock with similar gear but using a MH / OH combo and test it out.
Also my FG doesn't have a wep, he has atk power and just atk power. There is absolutely no "weapon" for him to base an attack off of. You can't increase weapon dmg through my spell dmg, you can only increase his atk power. There is also no set base weapon dmg for him, else it would be listed in his pet page. I'm pretty positive though that his cleaves are based on my weapon dmg.
Like I said before, i don't have a way to prove it but i have checked before against a few other locks and from what i've seen this is the case.
W/E though the S3 staff is still the best choice for gear in S3 because of the spell pen.
Have you ever played a melee class? No? I didn't think so, because skills that do "weapon damage" are counted as your actual weapon's damage + the damage your attack power gives you. Your felguard has a weapon, it's a giant fucking axe. If he had 0 attack power he would still have this base weapon damage. Same with a lvl 1 character and their fists if they had no attack power they'd still do 1-2 damage. So you can "think as you will" because I know I am right no matter what your un-scientific "testing" will "prove".
I have played a melee class. AP adds dps to the weps dmg but you can't use moves based on wep dmg if you don't have a wep. I'll go home and just take off my staff and see how much less he cleaves for. Yes he does have a giant axe but it has not bottom or top end dmg.
Across the web you can find posts both arguing that it does and doesn't count my staff dmg for his cleave. I'll do the best I can to support my side but you seamed to get all defensive and shit for no reason. As for un-scientific, I grab as much data under different circumstances that i can. If i lose 200 spell dmg my FG will really only be losing like 110 base atk power, 170ish after demon frenzy. 170 AP isn't much to lose so his cleaves should just minorly decrease right? well if they bottom out then it's a sure fire thing that cleave is based off of my wep dmg. Unless you can disprove that someway?
It really is this simple, if it was based off your weapon damage, Vengeful Gladiator's War Staff does 135 - 298 damage, is your felguard cleaving for more than this? If yes, you are wrong.
Or you could just look at your pet tab and see what his weapon damage is, is your felguard hitting for this much when he cleaves? Take into account armor mitigation. If so, I am right.
I've not played my warlock in a while, but I'm 100% sure that if you go to your Felguard's character sheet, under the same area as your own damage listing for your staff, you will see a damage range. That damage range is his weapon, regardless of whether you can equip anything on him or not.
I specifically remember calculating cleave damage a long while back and the dps it would do, based off of his listed weapon damage, which does vary wildly because of his 50% AP buff.
You're not very bright, "Your weapon damage" is as if the felguard were reading it. Avoidance says "Increases your chance to avoid area of effect attacks by an additional 50%." does that mean your Warlock gets a better chance to dodge AoE attacks? No. Your felguard's weapon damage is modified by your Spell Damage (gives him more AP, gives more weapon damage)
lol, think as you will, when i get home tonight i'll try to grab another lock with similar gear but using a MH / OH combo and test it out.
Also my FG doesn't have a wep, he has atk power and just atk power. There is absolutely no "weapon" for him to base an attack off of. You can't increase weapon dmg through my spell dmg, you can only increase his atk power. There is also no set base weapon dmg for him, else it would be listed in his pet page. I'm pretty positive though that his cleaves are based on my weapon dmg.
Like I said before, i don't have a way to prove it but i have checked before against a few other locks and from what i've seen this is the case.
W/E though the S3 staff is still the best choice for gear in S3 because of the spell pen.
Have you ever played a melee class? No? I didn't think so, because skills that do "weapon damage" are counted as your actual weapon's damage + the damage your attack power gives you. Your felguard has a weapon, it's a giant fucking axe. If he had 0 attack power he would still have this base weapon damage. Same with a lvl 1 character and their fists if they had no attack power they'd still do 1-2 damage. So you can "think as you will" because I know I am right no matter what your un-scientific "testing" will "prove".
I have played a melee class. AP adds dps to the weps dmg but you can't use moves based on wep dmg if you don't have a wep. I'll go home and just take off my staff and see how much less he cleaves for. Yes he does have a giant axe but it has not bottom or top end dmg.
Across the web you can find posts both arguing that it does and doesn't count my staff dmg for his cleave. I'll do the best I can to support my side but you seamed to get all defensive and shit for no reason. As for un-scientific, I grab as much data under different circumstances that i can. If i lose 200 spell dmg my FG will really only be losing like 110 base atk power, 170ish after demon frenzy. 170 AP isn't much to lose so his cleaves should just minorly decrease right? well if they bottom out then it's a sure fire thing that cleave is based off of my wep dmg. Unless you can disprove that someway?
If you're going to test this, you should compare between white weapons. Buy something from an outland weapon vendor, buy a skinning knife, and use that as your basis of comparison. Trying to account for the change in weapon as well as a change in stats (which add back into the felguard's stats) is just going to screw you up. I'd do this myself, but this argument isn't worth the 100g I'd have to spend.
You're not very bright, "Your weapon damage" is as if the felguard were reading it. Avoidance says "Increases your chance to avoid area of effect attacks by an additional 50%." does that mean your Warlock gets a better chance to dodge AoE attacks? No. Your felguard's weapon damage is modified by your Spell Damage (gives him more AP, gives more weapon damage)
lol, think as you will, when i get home tonight i'll try to grab another lock with similar gear but using a MH / OH combo and test it out.
Also my FG doesn't have a wep, he has atk power and just atk power. There is absolutely no "weapon" for him to base an attack off of. You can't increase weapon dmg through my spell dmg, you can only increase his atk power. There is also no set base weapon dmg for him, else it would be listed in his pet page. I'm pretty positive though that his cleaves are based on my weapon dmg.
Like I said before, i don't have a way to prove it but i have checked before against a few other locks and from what i've seen this is the case.
W/E though the S3 staff is still the best choice for gear in S3 because of the spell pen.
Have you ever played a melee class? No? I didn't think so, because skills that do "weapon damage" are counted as your actual weapon's damage + the damage your attack power gives you. Your felguard has a weapon, it's a giant fucking axe. If he had 0 attack power he would still have this base weapon damage. Same with a lvl 1 character and their fists if they had no attack power they'd still do 1-2 damage. So you can "think as you will" because I know I am right no matter what your un-scientific "testing" will "prove".
I have played a melee class. AP adds dps to the weps dmg but you can't use moves based on wep dmg if you don't have a wep. I'll go home and just take off my staff and see how much less he cleaves for. Yes he does have a giant axe but it has not bottom or top end dmg.
Across the web you can find posts both arguing that it does and doesn't count my staff dmg for his cleave. I'll do the best I can to support my side but you seamed to get all defensive and shit for no reason. As for un-scientific, I grab as much data under different circumstances that i can. If i lose 200 spell dmg my FG will really only be losing like 110 base atk power, 170ish after demon frenzy. 170 AP isn't much to lose so his cleaves should just minorly decrease right? well if they bottom out then it's a sure fire thing that cleave is based off of my wep dmg. Unless you can disprove that someway?
If you're going to test this, you should compare between white weapons. Buy something from an outland weapon vendor, buy a skinning knife, and use that as your basis of comparison. Trying to account for the change in weapon as well as a change in stats (which add back into the felguard's stats) is just going to screw you up. I'd do this myself, but this argument isn't worth the 100g I'd have to spend.
I'm at work atm, but as soon as i get home (bout 8 hrs) i'll try to prove / disprove this so that i'm not pasing misinformation. i guess i've always used a staff but most of the locks that roll FG that i've talked to ONLY use staffs cuz of cleave. If i am wrong i'll be glad to say so. I go and take my S1 staff off. Then I'll put on like a low lv dagger, then a rogue dps sword or something and see what differences occur. The lack of stats / spell dmg from the loss of my S1 staff SHOULDN"T effect the FG that much, and I'll try to supplement the spell dmg loss by adding on spell dmg trinkets. If I am right then losing the S1 staff would mean that his cleaves would completely bottom out and go from 3-400s down to like 1-200s. If i am wrong then it will only drop like 100 at max.
Conspiracy theories. The man is out to get you, Elvis lives on in a nice shack on the moon, the bermuda triangle eats people, use melee DPS weapons so your pet hits harder.
Conspiracy theories. The man is out to get you, Elvis lives on in a nice shack on the moon, the bermuda triangle eats people, use melee DPS weapons so your pet hits harder.
just to see if cleave is based on wep dmg. Maybe i'll get the slowest, hardest-hitting 2h i can and i'll stop using dots and just let my FG fight for me.
It wouldn't exactly surprise me if Blizzard put in some retarded code that based the cleave off the warlock's weapon, but this looks like a case of misunderstanding weapon damage as opposed to hard evidence.
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I drain tanked a 70 MS warrior at 64 with the build. His MS didn't seem to affect my drains.
Xbox Live: Kunohara
Who exactly rolls on that threat trinket? It's dropped twice so far for our guild and nobody wanted it either time.
And on the trash waves in Hyjal, all that stuff is tauntable, single target dps something down (get someone nominated a ranged main assist and have everyone follow his target) until it's time to AoE. You can't worry about stopping DPS for threat on the AoE spam, you're on the clock to get everything dead in 90 seconds and all those ghouls need to be gone by then. Once AoE is called for, just keep throwing seeds until you pull, then walk the mobs back to the tanks and start again. Ghouls only melee for about 2k apiece, you won't die immediately unless you pull like 5, and then you either started AoE too early or your tanks suck.
Destro threat isn't an issue, really really. Or it shouldn't be. Get a better MT? >.> The only times I have to really watch threat are gimmick shit like Leotheras or VR.
I think either spec would be fine, it's not like "hit tier 6 and spec destro or you fail." Affliction has some really useful stuff, for the raid and yourself. We usually run with two locks of each spec, and while I destroy them on "stand still and DPS" fights like Al'ar, it's pretty close on most things. Lots of movement = affliction does really well.
Trash is all AOE generally, yeah. We usually single-target one mob to give the tanks some time to grab it all, and then just seed away.
Wait...CoS & CoE stack?
Steam: pazython
Er when two different warlocks cast them. One curse per warlock.
Check the 2.3 patch notes and try that one again. MS / wound poison and Aimed shot all effect drains and Siphon life.
Spec demo for lving, pve, and pvp. Demo (full demo) is the best in dmg and survivability. The FG really doesn't die too offten as long as you have a Spriest or a decent holy priest that uses PoM. The FGs dmg is far higher then any dot combinations as long as you have battleshout and Blessing of Might. A decently geared Demo lock in full raid buffs should hit like 2k +shadow and his FG should cap around 2500 AP. If you use a staff instead of a MH / OH your FG will get bonus cleave dmg (it's based on YOUR wep dmg) and most of your aggro will be passed to him anyway (this means you can spam your dmg and most of your threat will STILL be on the FG; as will about 30% dmg).
sorry didn't mean to rant or wall of text....but DEMO FTW!!.
I fooled around with a felguard spec last night, doing some BGs and farming some shards. It was kind of fun; I was ridiculously sturdy even with shit for pvp gear (which mostly consists of old socketed gear with steady talasites in every slot), and it was nice being able to finally deal those last 500 points of damage to those rogues who pop Cloak of Shadows just before they die, but I've got a hunter alt that I'm trying to level up if I wanted to play like that on a regular basis.
The FG is far more efficent then anything else. AS long as you have 2 pts in mana feed. If you use only one pt in mana feed then yeah he'll be kinda crappy, alas, for pvp i have to have only one pt in mana feed so grinding can become a BIT bothersome but just a bit. When i grind in my pvp gear i can easily farm 4-5 enemies at a time, letting one or 2 be tanked by thootom. I use cleave and no anguish till he is oom, then I use anguish and no cleave, my regular 2 dot drain rotation keeps me and him both full on mana and hp most of the time. Every 4th - 6th mob i have to use health funnle, which isn't shit at all if you have decent spell dmg. I sit at exactly 1k in my full pvp set and he heals almost 400 per tick....10 seconds out of every minute, usually while i'm killing something, in order to keep him up isn't really and issue for me. And as far as pvp goes, i've beaten a million locks, mages, priests, huntards, pallys..not druids FUCK ROOTS, just by leaving my FG on them when i run away.
He doesn't really die that fast in arenas unless he is completly focused, and let me tell you, if it's a melee class i'd WAY rather my shammy healed him with his 9k armor then me with my 2k
Once again sorry for the text, just saying you should L2 demo at 70 with REAL pvp gear before questioning it. Demo is both the most gear forgiving and gear dependent.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Nothing matches smart affliction farming, unless you're fighting red mobs or mobs that are immune to fear. Once you get improved howl of terror you can pull 3-4 melee mobs and take very few hits. The only problem is running around to collect the loot from corpses. Sure, you might pull some extra adds with the fear, but that only seemed to speed up the process in my experience.
The felguard appears to be unbeatable for single target dps. I can't find anyone that can beat me (or another build that does better that isn't ultimately the same build), and it's a fairly simple rotation with 1/43/17 or something similar. I personally think you need either fel concentration or intensity, but that's a personal thing -- if you don't like it you could take the destruction range talent or fill out devastation and demonic tactics too. I don't think there's a huge difference overall, the importance of talents changes between encounters.
Data sample: our last gruul kill wws
Note that #2 warlock, 0/21/40, uses curse of doom/agony and I use curse of elements. We were both in separate groups, but each had a single beastmastery hunter.
My warlock has about 140 hit (with non-pvp pieces), 19ish destruction crit, and about 800 unbuffed damage. [url=http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Tiernon[/url]Tiernon[/url] has significantly better overall stats with 163 hit, 26ish destruction crit, and 830 unbuffed damage.
I'd say hey, here's some evidence that felguard is better, but tiernon still had a higher miss rate on shadowbolt than I did even with his better hit rating. Meh sample I guess, even though it's only a 1% difference.
Tukufu is affliction with 940 unbuffed shadow damage and 191ish hit, but he has malediction and has the tank's imp so no one can really argue with that.
Still, curse of doom made up 15% of Tiernon's damage...
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
flaadhun certainly wasn't in melee range for the duration of the fight, and the "get behind the monster" ai they implemented for pets actually completely sucks for fights where there's this cave in that you want to avoid.
The felguard's damage is based on your weapon?
I've never heard that.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
The pet AI has changed so that they will always try to attack from the back, even if you'd rather they didn't. It's a blessing and a curse, as kaleedity has pointed out.
And I've never really bought into the notion that being able to keep dots ticking while you're scurrying around and hiding was such an advantage to affliction. Unless you're able to use the time you are forced to move to refresh your curse or your instant dots, you're still losing casting time that would have gone into casting non-instant dots or shadowbolts if you had been allowed to stand still and nuke, so movement still causes you to lose dps. Now on some fights, you spend so much time running around that it is a definite edge (Void Reaver, Lady Vashj Phase 3), but on Gruul, the affliction lock, the shadowbolt spammer, and the felguard lock all spend roughly the same number of global cooldowns casting and the same number of global cooldowns hiding behind a rock and not casting, while the felguard lock also gets to have his pet wail on gruul during the downtime. If you didn't have to be constantly watching gruul's ass for cave-ins, that fight would definitely favor a demo lock over the other two specs.
not his dmg, but his CLEAVE dmg is. You lose minimal spell dmg / hit and what not by using a staff but the FG gains at least 100 base on cleaves, usually more (depending on the staff). Cleave, in pvp especially, is a large part of the FGs dmg if you use a staff he'll do a lot more then if you use a MH OH combo. The lost in spell dmg is as i said minimal and usually you gain something else to counter the loss.
No one's saying you don't lose dps. But dots make up such a massive portion of your damage, and at least if there's any sort of warning about when you have to start moving, you can make sure that you're losing very little of your DoT damage. Meanwhile a Felguard spec, I would bet, has a noticeably higher portion of it's dps coming from nuking.
Can you cite testing that backs this up? I know any number of stathead warlocks, and I've never heard that you should use a staff when you've got the felguard out.
Also, WRT affliction on mobility fights, it definitely helps. I led our raid's DPS on our first supremus kill by a pretty wide margin (posted the WWS one of the other threads), which isn't something that usually happens. Any boss fight with multiple targets or a lot of movement is going to help all the DoT classes, and affliction's the DoT king.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Read the tooltip for cleave, it says YOUR weapon dmg +76, or something like that. Also i have done tests with a few lock friends of mine, but i don't have substantial numbers to back it up. I just know that S3 staff > all else for pvp
lol, think as you will, when i get home tonight i'll try to grab another lock with similar gear but using a MH / OH combo and test it out.
Also my FG doesn't have a wep, he has atk power and just atk power. There is absolutely no "weapon" for him to base an attack off of. You can't increase weapon dmg through my spell dmg, you can only increase his atk power. There is also no set base weapon dmg for him, else it would be listed in his pet page. I'm pretty positive though that his cleaves are based on my weapon dmg.
Like I said before, i don't have a way to prove it but i have checked before against a few other locks and from what i've seen this is the case.
W/E though the S3 staff is still the best choice for gear in S3 because of the spell pen.
Have you ever played a melee class? No? I didn't think so, because skills that do "weapon damage" are counted as your actual weapon's damage + the damage your attack power gives you. Your felguard has a weapon, it's a giant fucking axe. If he had 0 attack power he would still have this base weapon damage. Same with a lvl 1 character and their fists if they had no attack power they'd still do 1-2 damage. So you can "think as you will" because I know I am right no matter what your un-scientific "testing" will "prove".
I have played a melee class. AP adds dps to the weps dmg but you can't use moves based on wep dmg if you don't have a wep. I'll go home and just take off my staff and see how much less he cleaves for. Yes he does have a giant axe but it has not bottom or top end dmg.
Across the web you can find posts both arguing that it does and doesn't count my staff dmg for his cleave. I'll do the best I can to support my side but you seamed to get all defensive and shit for no reason. As for un-scientific, I grab as much data under different circumstances that i can. If i lose 200 spell dmg my FG will really only be losing like 110 base atk power, 170ish after demon frenzy. 170 AP isn't much to lose so his cleaves should just minorly decrease right? well if they bottom out then it's a sure fire thing that cleave is based off of my wep dmg. Unless you can disprove that someway?
Or you could just look at your pet tab and see what his weapon damage is, is your felguard hitting for this much when he cleaves? Take into account armor mitigation. If so, I am right.
I specifically remember calculating cleave damage a long while back and the dps it would do, based off of his listed weapon damage, which does vary wildly because of his 50% AP buff.
If you're going to test this, you should compare between white weapons. Buy something from an outland weapon vendor, buy a skinning knife, and use that as your basis of comparison. Trying to account for the change in weapon as well as a change in stats (which add back into the felguard's stats) is just going to screw you up. I'd do this myself, but this argument isn't worth the 100g I'd have to spend.
I'm at work atm, but as soon as i get home (bout 8 hrs) i'll try to prove / disprove this so that i'm not pasing misinformation. i guess i've always used a staff but most of the locks that roll FG that i've talked to ONLY use staffs cuz of cleave. If i am wrong i'll be glad to say so. I go and take my S1 staff off. Then I'll put on like a low lv dagger, then a rogue dps sword or something and see what differences occur. The lack of stats / spell dmg from the loss of my S1 staff SHOULDN"T effect the FG that much, and I'll try to supplement the spell dmg loss by adding on spell dmg trinkets. If I am right then losing the S1 staff would mean that his cleaves would completely bottom out and go from 3-400s down to like 1-200s. If i am wrong then it will only drop like 100 at max.
Tinfoil hats meets WoW official forums.
just to see if cleave is based on wep dmg. Maybe i'll get the slowest, hardest-hitting 2h i can and i'll stop using dots and just let my FG fight for me.