Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
edited June 2017
The New Gods aren't really good or evil. They just are. The deal here is mostly they have an absence of any kind of codified ritual like the ones that the Old Gods have shaped and been shaped by, and they look to supplement their power base by getting the Old Gods to abandon their rituals in favor of becoming content for their content delivery systems.
Basically, it's the second season of Deadwood writ large. Hearst/Mr World shows up, offers to buy everyone's property but says they can keep doing what they're doing, now with a big lump of cash to spruce up their lives-until such time as Hearst would own enough of Deadwood/Devotion to take the whole thing over and kick everyone else out, at which point the original founders/Gods will be too dependent on Hearst/Mr World to do anything about it and wither and die.
Odin/Swearengen can see this game from a mile off. That's why he sees this as a war, and why the New Gods don't want that narrative.
He's not a god, but he's definitely a supernatural being. He says he was once a king. I'm thinking he was once mortal and became something else through magical means.
So I'm left wondering a few things (and I haven't read the book):
- Is Wednesday & Co. the good guys here? Do we want the Old Gods to win? The Old Gods are petty and fickle and mercurial and kill people for shits and giggles, and they're insecure as all hell. They do bad things for selfish reasons and express very little remorse, and Odin/Sweeny/Ostara seem to be as guilty of this as anyone.
- Conversely, outside of Technoboy being insufferable, what exactly are we to oppose about Media and Mr. World? Their forms of worship are subtler and gentler, their needs and pettiness far less, their willingness to compromise far more.
Addendum to the second question:
Was I supposed to understand what Mr. World was a god of?
Well, it's not a book spoiler, because it's not in the book either, but he's roughly the god of globalization.
If you haven't heard of the word "Cocacolonization", it really defines Mr World's methods well.
Cocacolonization - Portmanteau of Coca Cola and Colonization. It's an example of what happens when the US culture of capitalism takes hold in an area. The mega brands come into town and take over small competition until everything that's left is made by those brands. It also applies to culture. When the culture of capitalism comes to an area, the existing culture becomes commodified, the fictional characters start to show up on billboards hocking Coca Cola and Levis jeans.
So, like Bilquis, Astara, and Vulcan, everything old and unique to an area is repurposed to sell product.
He's not a god, but he's definitely a supernatural being. He says he was once a king. I'm thinking he was once mortal and became something else through magical means.
So I'm left wondering a few things (and I haven't read the book):
- Is Wednesday & Co. the good guys here? Do we want the Old Gods to win? The Old Gods are petty and fickle and mercurial and kill people for shits and giggles, and they're insecure as all hell. They do bad things for selfish reasons and express very little remorse, and Odin/Sweeny/Ostara seem to be as guilty of this as anyone.
- Conversely, outside of Technoboy being insufferable, what exactly are we to oppose about Media and Mr. World? Their forms of worship are subtler and gentler, their needs and pettiness far less, their willingness to compromise far more.
One of the things is that Media showed up a lot sooner in the show than in the novel, and I suspect that much of her real dark side from the book is being saved for a long speech later in the show.
gave me goosebumps. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone deliver intimidation as well as Gillian Anderson did in that scene. She deserves all the awards that are undoubtedly coming her way.
If there is any justice in the world, within the next 5 years Gillian Anderson is going to earn herself an Oscar for one of the movie roles that is definitely coming her way after New Gods.
He's not a god, but he's definitely a supernatural being. He says he was once a king. I'm thinking he was once mortal and became something else through magical means.
Note I have not read the book.
He's a Leprechaun...
Not sure if it was Gaiman's original intent but, based on the Sweeney episode, ShowSweeney seems to
be getting the backstory of the Irish folk-figure Buile Shuibhne, aka Mad Sweeney.
The whole mad king, fled a battle, cursed in sundry ways thing wasn't in the book, I don't think.
So I'm left wondering a few things (and I haven't read the book):
- Is Wednesday & Co. the good guys here? Do we want the Old Gods to win? The Old Gods are petty and fickle and mercurial and kill people for shits and giggles, and they're insecure as all hell. They do bad things for selfish reasons and express very little remorse, and Odin/Sweeny/Ostara seem to be as guilty of this as anyone.
- Conversely, outside of Technoboy being insufferable, what exactly are we to oppose about Media and Mr. World? Their forms of worship are subtler and gentler, their needs and pettiness far less, their willingness to compromise far more.
Addendum to the second question:
Was I supposed to understand what Mr. World was a god of?
Well, it's not a book spoiler, because it's not in the book either, but he's roughly the god of globalization.
If you haven't heard of the word "Cocacolonization", it really defines Mr World's methods well.
Cocacolonization - Portmanteau of Coca Cola and Colonization. It's an example of what happens when the US culture of capitalism takes hold in an area. The mega brands come into town and take over small competition until everything that's left is made by those brands. It also applies to culture. When the culture of capitalism comes to an area, the existing culture becomes commodified, the fictional characters start to show up on billboards hocking Coca Cola and Levis jeans.
So, like Bilquis, Astara, and Vulcan, everything old and unique to an area is repurposed to sell product.
That would be more the God of the Market. Mr World is more like the 1950's conspiracy theory of a global cabal in a single person. CIA + NSA + Flouridification + Jetstreams + Bilderberg + whatever new Alex Jones fever dream.
He's not a god, but he's definitely a supernatural being. He says he was once a king. I'm thinking he was once mortal and became something else through magical means.
Note I have not read the book.
Well they're all beings manifested by belief. 'Gods' is something of a catch all term even for those who aren't divine figures (for example Sweeney referring to himself as a god). In theory
Major historical figures could be the basis for some gods. There could have very well been a mortal Jesus before the God Jesi came into being. Whether or not the mortal version and the godly versions could be considered the same entities is hard to say though.
Speaking of, all Sweeney's talk about the King of America makes me hope Emperor Norton shows up (The self proclaimed Emperor of America). Wouldn't be the first time he's appeared in a Neil Gaiman project.
So I'm left wondering a few things (and I haven't read the book):
- Is Wednesday & Co. the good guys here? Do we want the Old Gods to win? The Old Gods are petty and fickle and mercurial and kill people for shits and giggles, and they're insecure as all hell. They do bad things for selfish reasons and express very little remorse, and Odin/Sweeny/Ostara seem to be as guilty of this as anyone.
- Conversely, outside of Technoboy being insufferable, what exactly are we to oppose about Media and Mr. World? Their forms of worship are subtler and gentler, their needs and pettiness far less, their willingness to compromise far more.
Addendum to the second question:
Was I supposed to understand what Mr. World was a god of?
Well, it's not a book spoiler, because it's not in the book either, but he's roughly the god of globalization.
If you haven't heard of the word "Cocacolonization", it really defines Mr World's methods well.
Cocacolonization - Portmanteau of Coca Cola and Colonization. It's an example of what happens when the US culture of capitalism takes hold in an area. The mega brands come into town and take over small competition until everything that's left is made by those brands. It also applies to culture. When the culture of capitalism comes to an area, the existing culture becomes commodified, the fictional characters start to show up on billboards hocking Coca Cola and Levis jeans.
So, like Bilquis, Astara, and Vulcan, everything old and unique to an area is repurposed to sell product.
World is explained in the book:
He's the manifestation of paranoid fantasies about three letter government agencies.
So I'm left wondering a few things (and I haven't read the book):
- Is Wednesday & Co. the good guys here? Do we want the Old Gods to win? The Old Gods are petty and fickle and mercurial and kill people for shits and giggles, and they're insecure as all hell. They do bad things for selfish reasons and express very little remorse, and Odin/Sweeny/Ostara seem to be as guilty of this as anyone.
- Conversely, outside of Technoboy being insufferable, what exactly are we to oppose about Media and Mr. World? Their forms of worship are subtler and gentler, their needs and pettiness far less, their willingness to compromise far more.
Addendum to the second question:
Was I supposed to understand what Mr. World was a god of?
Well, it's not a book spoiler, because it's not in the book either, but he's roughly the god of globalization.
If you haven't heard of the word "Cocacolonization", it really defines Mr World's methods well.
Cocacolonization - Portmanteau of Coca Cola and Colonization. It's an example of what happens when the US culture of capitalism takes hold in an area. The mega brands come into town and take over small competition until everything that's left is made by those brands. It also applies to culture. When the culture of capitalism comes to an area, the existing culture becomes commodified, the fictional characters start to show up on billboards hocking Coca Cola and Levis jeans.
So, like Bilquis, Astara, and Vulcan, everything old and unique to an area is repurposed to sell product.
World is explained in the book:
He's the manifestation of paranoid fantasies about three letter government agencies.
I think World like Tech boy has evolved a bit. The book was written pre 9/11. I'd say the conspiracies such as the New World order stuff have kicked into higher gear since then.
So I'm left wondering a few things (and I haven't read the book):
- Is Wednesday & Co. the good guys here? Do we want the Old Gods to win? The Old Gods are petty and fickle and mercurial and kill people for shits and giggles, and they're insecure as all hell. They do bad things for selfish reasons and express very little remorse, and Odin/Sweeny/Ostara seem to be as guilty of this as anyone.
- Conversely, outside of Technoboy being insufferable, what exactly are we to oppose about Media and Mr. World? Their forms of worship are subtler and gentler, their needs and pettiness far less, their willingness to compromise far more.
Addendum to the second question:
Was I supposed to understand what Mr. World was a god of?
Well, it's not a book spoiler, because it's not in the book either, but he's roughly the god of globalization.
If you haven't heard of the word "Cocacolonization", it really defines Mr World's methods well.
Cocacolonization - Portmanteau of Coca Cola and Colonization. It's an example of what happens when the US culture of capitalism takes hold in an area. The mega brands come into town and take over small competition until everything that's left is made by those brands. It also applies to culture. When the culture of capitalism comes to an area, the existing culture becomes commodified, the fictional characters start to show up on billboards hocking Coca Cola and Levis jeans.
So, like Bilquis, Astara, and Vulcan, everything old and unique to an area is repurposed to sell product.
World is explained in the book:
He's the manifestation of paranoid fantasies about three letter government agencies.
I think World like Tech boy has evolved a bit. The book was written pre 9/11. I'd say the conspiracies such as the New World order stuff have kicked into higher gear since then.
Definitely. He's very much in line with Dedwrekka's desciption now.
"New world order" was probably the link that got them from paranoid conspiracy theories to more visible factors of globalization. Or he's still the God of Conspiracy Theories, and they just fleshed it out!
...Spoilering cause I'd do it for GoT. Should I not bother hiding that element of his character?
Someone in the SE++ thread said there was a line in the book about "someone like you taking your place" if you died.
well i don't think Vulcan was in the book to begin with.
Not about Vulcan specifically. I think the conception is more like of the Endless in The Sandman. Where
The Endless can die, and they are replaced by completely different versions of the concepts they embody (with different personalities, looks, etc)
Well yes. Gods in mythology tend to come back again and again. Different names, different jobs, different personalities but still the same God. Bit like Dr.Who.
Rebirth is a big running theme of the book and show and much like the cabbie Gods can be born again too.
So I'm left wondering a few things (and I haven't read the book):
- Is Wednesday & Co. the good guys here? Do we want the Old Gods to win? The Old Gods are petty and fickle and mercurial and kill people for shits and giggles, and they're insecure as all hell. They do bad things for selfish reasons and express very little remorse, and Odin/Sweeny/Ostara seem to be as guilty of this as anyone.
- Conversely, outside of Technoboy being insufferable, what exactly are we to oppose about Media and Mr. World? Their forms of worship are subtler and gentler, their needs and pettiness far less, their willingness to compromise far more.
Addendum to the second question:
Was I supposed to understand what Mr. World was a god of?
Well, it's not a book spoiler, because it's not in the book either, but he's roughly the god of globalization.
If you haven't heard of the word "Cocacolonization", it really defines Mr World's methods well.
Cocacolonization - Portmanteau of Coca Cola and Colonization. It's an example of what happens when the US culture of capitalism takes hold in an area. The mega brands come into town and take over small competition until everything that's left is made by those brands. It also applies to culture. When the culture of capitalism comes to an area, the existing culture becomes commodified, the fictional characters start to show up on billboards hocking Coca Cola and Levis jeans.
So, like Bilquis, Astara, and Vulcan, everything old and unique to an area is repurposed to sell product.
World is explained in the book:
He's the manifestation of paranoid fantasies about three letter government agencies.
World was intentionally largely a non-entity in the book, because in the book even showing who he is would be a big spoiler.
You only see people talk about him, and even then, not in detailed ways that explain what he's supposed to be the god of.
Like, people assume that he's the god of conspiracy theories because he's ordering around a bunch of Men in Black, but we know he's not actually the god of that, so the Men in Black would know that he's not the god of that too even if they don't know who he really is. So he has to be acting as the god of something other than the god of conspiracy theories, because the Misters would know that he wasn't.
So I'm left wondering a few things (and I haven't read the book):
- Is Wednesday & Co. the good guys here? Do we want the Old Gods to win? The Old Gods are petty and fickle and mercurial and kill people for shits and giggles, and they're insecure as all hell. They do bad things for selfish reasons and express very little remorse, and Odin/Sweeny/Ostara seem to be as guilty of this as anyone.
- Conversely, outside of Technoboy being insufferable, what exactly are we to oppose about Media and Mr. World? Their forms of worship are subtler and gentler, their needs and pettiness far less, their willingness to compromise far more.
Addendum to the second question:
Was I supposed to understand what Mr. World was a god of?
Well, it's not a book spoiler, because it's not in the book either, but he's roughly the god of globalization.
If you haven't heard of the word "Cocacolonization", it really defines Mr World's methods well.
Cocacolonization - Portmanteau of Coca Cola and Colonization. It's an example of what happens when the US culture of capitalism takes hold in an area. The mega brands come into town and take over small competition until everything that's left is made by those brands. It also applies to culture. When the culture of capitalism comes to an area, the existing culture becomes commodified, the fictional characters start to show up on billboards hocking Coca Cola and Levis jeans.
So, like Bilquis, Astara, and Vulcan, everything old and unique to an area is repurposed to sell product.
World is explained in the book:
He's the manifestation of paranoid fantasies about three letter government agencies.
World was intentionally largely a non-entity in the book, because in the book even showing who he is would be a big spoiler.
You only see people talk about him, and even then, not in detailed ways that explain what he's supposed to be the god of.
Like, people assume that he's the god of conspiracy theories because he's ordering around a bunch of Men in Black, but we know he's not actually the god of that, so the Men in Black would know that he's not the god of that too even if they don't know who he really is. So he has to be acting as the god of something other than the god of conspiracy theories, because the Misters would know that he wasn't.
well with someone like Crispin Glover playing the character you can understand why they changed it to a more grandiose character from his relatively low-key presence in the book.
Someone in the SE++ thread said there was a line in the book about "someone like you taking your place" if you died.
Based on the existence of the new gods it seems like enough people 'worshiping' (for some understanding of the term) and 'sacrificing' (same again) to some concept is enough to create a god.
Vulcan set up his own little culture where worship is ubiquitous and periodic human sacrifice is the norm. Unless some other god steps in and takes up his portfolio (to put it in D&D terms) it seems unavoidable that a new god would be spawned to fill the void.
PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Someone in the SE++ thread said there was a line in the book about "someone like you taking your place" if you died.
\lightbulb pops over head
Does
Does that mean that (speculation!)
Shadow Moon could be a new god? Like either another god died we didn't see before the series takes place or he's the manifestation of a new worship. Is that why there's so much fuss over him? Holy shit what if hes a new powerful god and that's why Wednesday is using him like this?!
Someone in the SE++ thread said there was a line in the book about "someone like you taking your place" if you died.
\lightbulb pops over head
Does
Does that mean that
Shadow Moon could be a new god? Like either another god died we didn't see before the series takes place or he's the manifestation of a new worship. Is that why there's so much fuss over him? Holy shit what if hes a new powerful god and that's why Wednesday is using him like this?!
Well,
the moon goddess asked him why he wants to throw his life away again.
Someone in the SE++ thread said there was a line in the book about "someone like you taking your place" if you died.
\lightbulb pops over head
Does
Does that mean that
Shadow Moon could be a new god? Like either another god died we didn't see before the series takes place or he's the manifestation of a new worship. Is that why there's so much fuss over him? Holy shit what if hes a new powerful god and that's why Wednesday is using him like this?!
Regards to Obi's question:
I'm not restating the question out of spoilers but you asked, so, uh, Obi I strongly suggest you be careful about spoilers and that question.
Edit: On second thought, even vague nonanswer to that should be spoilered.
In general this show is a casting triumph. They've managed to find just the right actor for every role. Some of these performances are so powerful that they might become popular culture icons in their own right. Wednesday and Media in particular, but I also really like Mad Sweeney, Dead Wife, and a certain spoilery goddess in the season finale. And the actor playing Shadow is doing a great job even if the role is a bit unrewarding so far.
Someone in the SE++ thread said there was a line in the book about "someone like you taking your place" if you died.
Sure, If there's any believers left a new Vulcan would take his place.
Vulcans power base was gun nuts who swore by his ammunition.
Now he is dead and Odins curse made his ammo unreliable pos.
Who's gonna pray for him now?
In general this show is a casting triumph. They've managed to find just the right actor for every role. Some of these performances are so powerful that they might become popular culture icons in their own right. Wednesday and Media in particular, but I also really like Mad Sweeney, Dead Wife, and a certain spoilery goddess in the season finale. And the actor playing Shadow is doing a great job even if the role is a bit unrewarding so far.
Shadow will come more into his own during the second season, particularly if they shift to Lakeside (if I've got the pacing right, that should be during the second half).
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
In general this show is a casting triumph. They've managed to find just the right actor for every role. Some of these performances are so powerful that they might become popular culture icons in their own right. Wednesday and Media in particular, but I also really like Mad Sweeney, Dead Wife, and a certain spoilery goddess in the season finale. And the actor playing Shadow is doing a great job even if the role is a bit unrewarding so far.
Shadow will come more into his own during the second season, particularly if they shift to Lakeside (if I've got the pacing right, that should be during the second half).
Personally I think Shadow's doing a great job, especially considering how nondescript Shadow was in the original version.
I wonder if they'll change the Lakeside stuff at all.
[book spoilers]
Having the end of that come after the big battle just felt weird to me, like it was hastily added in after the climax.
I was really getting into it at the time, then everything else came along and took over. By the time he went back, I was just 'Oh yeah, there was that thing'.
I could see that being moved forwards to the end of season 2, as it feels like a mini-climax to end a season one, while still having a to be continued ending to bring you into season 3.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
0
TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Mr. World is the God of Government. Everything both good and bad about it and everything both real and not real about it.
Like he really does have Men in Black at his beck and call even though that's not something that actually happens in the real world, but enough people believe it that it's true, like wise with the Big Brotherish Eye-in-the-Sky bit, and how every bit of knowledge is archived away by him for later use.
I actually wouldn't mind an episode that focused on Mr. World and showed him to not be a completely deranged psychopath who seems to only use his powers to intimidate or kill.
I wonder if they'll change the Lakeside stuff at all.
[book spoilers]
Having the end of that come after the big battle just felt weird to me, like it was hastily added in after the climax.
I was really getting into it at the time, then everything else came along and took over. By the time he went back, I was just 'Oh yeah, there was that thing'.
I could see that being moved forwards to the end of season 2, as it feels like a mini-climax to end a season one, while still having a to be continued ending to bring you into season 3.
I loved "that thing"
Reorder would be good though, give S2 more of a purpose since it preumably starts with House on the rock, then has nowhere to go but Lakeside. Resolving the thing within that season would provide some needed texture.
Posts
Basically, it's the second season of Deadwood writ large. Hearst/Mr World shows up, offers to buy everyone's property but says they can keep doing what they're doing, now with a big lump of cash to spruce up their lives-until such time as Hearst would own enough of Deadwood/Devotion to take the whole thing over and kick everyone else out, at which point the original founders/Gods will be too dependent on Hearst/Mr World to do anything about it and wither and die.
Odin/Swearengen can see this game from a mile off. That's why he sees this as a war, and why the New Gods don't want that narrative.
The directors intentionally portrayed the Jesuses as the nicest of the gods. I like it.
Note I have not read the book.
Well, it's not a book spoiler, because it's not in the book either, but he's roughly the god of globalization.
If you haven't heard of the word "Cocacolonization", it really defines Mr World's methods well.
Cocacolonization - Portmanteau of Coca Cola and Colonization. It's an example of what happens when the US culture of capitalism takes hold in an area. The mega brands come into town and take over small competition until everything that's left is made by those brands. It also applies to culture. When the culture of capitalism comes to an area, the existing culture becomes commodified, the fictional characters start to show up on billboards hocking Coca Cola and Levis jeans.
So, like Bilquis, Astara, and Vulcan, everything old and unique to an area is repurposed to sell product.
He's a Leprechaun...
One of the things is that Media showed up a lot sooner in the show than in the novel, and I suspect that much of her real dark side from the book is being saved for a long speech later in the show.
Hmmm, yes, when you put it that way, I agree.
In that case, what happens to
Not sure if it was Gaiman's original intent but, based on the Sweeney episode, ShowSweeney seems to
The whole mad king, fled a battle, cursed in sundry ways thing wasn't in the book, I don't think.
That would be more the God of the Market. Mr World is more like the 1950's conspiracy theory of a global cabal in a single person. CIA + NSA + Flouridification + Jetstreams + Bilderberg + whatever new Alex Jones fever dream.
Well they're all beings manifested by belief. 'Gods' is something of a catch all term even for those who aren't divine figures (for example Sweeney referring to himself as a god). In theory
Speaking of, all Sweeney's talk about the King of America makes me hope Emperor Norton shows up (The self proclaimed Emperor of America). Wouldn't be the first time he's appeared in a Neil Gaiman project.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton
World is explained in the book:
well i don't think Vulcan was in the book to begin with.
I think World like Tech boy has evolved a bit. The book was written pre 9/11. I'd say the conspiracies such as the New World order stuff have kicked into higher gear since then.
Not about Vulcan specifically. I think the conception is more like of the Endless in The Sandman. Where
NNID: Hakkekage
Definitely. He's very much in line with Dedwrekka's desciption now.
...Spoilering cause I'd do it for GoT. Should I not bother hiding that element of his character?
Well yes. Gods in mythology tend to come back again and again. Different names, different jobs, different personalities but still the same God. Bit like Dr.Who.
Rebirth is a big running theme of the book and show and much like the cabbie Gods can be born again too.
You only see people talk about him, and even then, not in detailed ways that explain what he's supposed to be the god of.
Like, people assume that he's the god of conspiracy theories because he's ordering around a bunch of Men in Black, but we know he's not actually the god of that, so the Men in Black would know that he's not the god of that too even if they don't know who he really is. So he has to be acting as the god of something other than the god of conspiracy theories, because the Misters would know that he wasn't.
Based on the existence of the new gods it seems like enough people 'worshiping' (for some understanding of the term) and 'sacrificing' (same again) to some concept is enough to create a god.
\lightbulb pops over head
Does
Does that mean that (speculation!)
Well,
Regards to Obi's question:
Edit: On second thought, even vague nonanswer to that should be spoilered.
I've stayed blind on this series precisely for that reason.
Vulcans power base was gun nuts who swore by his ammunition.
Now he is dead and Odins curse made his ammo unreliable pos.
Who's gonna pray for him now?
Shadow will come more into his own during the second season, particularly if they shift to Lakeside (if I've got the pacing right, that should be during the second half).
Personally I think Shadow's doing a great job, especially considering how nondescript Shadow was in the original version.
[book spoilers]
I was really getting into it at the time, then everything else came along and took over. By the time he went back, I was just 'Oh yeah, there was that thing'.
I could see that being moved forwards to the end of season 2, as it feels like a mini-climax to end a season one, while still having a to be continued ending to bring you into season 3.
Like he really does have Men in Black at his beck and call even though that's not something that actually happens in the real world, but enough people believe it that it's true, like wise with the Big Brotherish Eye-in-the-Sky bit, and how every bit of knowledge is archived away by him for later use.
I actually wouldn't mind an episode that focused on Mr. World and showed him to not be a completely deranged psychopath who seems to only use his powers to intimidate or kill.
I loved "that thing"