Also that not only are destroyers generally not worth bothering with anymore, but the automated defense turret upgrade is buried in a place where no one is really every going to pick it. Destroyer IIs need 2 red techs, red is the weakest branch, and why bother getting Destroyer II when at that point you're only one additional tech away from war suns?
Also that not only are destroyers generally not worth bothering with anymore, but the automated defense turret upgrade is buried in a place where no one is really every going to pick it. Destroyer IIs need 2 red techs, red is the weakest branch, and why bother getting Destroyer II when at that point you're only one additional tech away from war suns?
Hey!
I need all the red techs.
And at least the destroyers were cheap to hang an Assault Cannon off.
I also think yellow's the weakest branch, with blue far and away the strongest, and would be the strongest if only because its second tech is not some garbage tech you want to skip with a tech speciality
Sarween Tools is something pretty much everyone wants to get every game. Graviton is okay (I would move it to tier 1 though since Sarween is better). Transit Diodes is great in that not only does it save you from buying carriers to transport infantry to the front line plus the command tokens, but you can use one pool of infantry to attack more than once in the same round (invade, teleport to different planet you own , attack another target with them). Integral Economy is amazing that essentially gives you the powerful Arborec racial ability.
On the other hand, Magen is the single worst generic tech in the game, and the rest of the reds fall under "nice, but not that great". The podcast made a great point that Graviton belongs in the red branch and should replace Magen.
Arborec still has to pay resources for their racial ability.
Their racial ability is amazing.
edit: my mistake, I was thinking the resource value only applied to the build limit, not the total cost. That's less amazing. Still, replenishing your fighter screen and infantry force on the go is still a lot better than anything the red branch offers.
So a big thing with the Arborec infantry is Sarween applies to it.
IE doesn't have any unit to hang Sarween off.
And Red just blasts through the fighter screen so meh.
I also don't count the level 1 techs as part of the tree.
Anyone can get them without specialisation, and most get some for free.
So it's less about the relative strength of the trees and more about the racial advantages.
I'm also not a fan of the transit diodes.
You still need transport capacity to double attack with, which implies you have either a two-step invasion going on, or you're concentrating your GF for the purposes of the invasion.
The first is costly to do, and the second seems to be done better and cheaper by Cruiser IIs.
So in all, yellow seems to me to be the same strength as red generally but without anything cool at the end of it.
And yes, everyone takes Sarween, but that doesn't compel anyone to devote more resources to running up the tree.
I should probably also say, yes Magen is bad (the yellow second stage is slightly better, but both require a PDS), and Duranium is also situational and you're probably better off getting Direct Hit invulnerable Dread IIs if you can instead.
But at least there's War Suns and Assault Cannons at the end.
@MrBlarney
It would seem that Discrider and Ketar were very quick to point out the error that Mr Body made in thinking he could retreat his forces from the Naalu home system when the rules do not allow this. However, I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that the current Naalu Fleet Pool is only 3. Hybrid Crystal fighters still count 1/2 against the Naalu's fleet limit so Lykouragh should indicate which forces he is moving in from the Starpoint system. If he brings the maximum of 4 fighters, both infantry and a fighter must stay behind. Alternatively, he could leave behind the destroyer from Vefut and/or the cruiser from Mehar Xull to bring all his fighters and one or both infantry and still stay within the fleet limit.
No, I'm wrong. It appears that the fleet limit is not imposed during movement, only once the fleet is in the destination system.
34.3 If at any time the number of a player’s ships in a system
exceeds the number of tokens in his fleet pool, he chooses and
destroys excess ships in that system.
It would seem that Discrider and Ketar were very quick to point out the error that Mr Body made in thinking he could retreat his forces from the Naalu home system when the rules do not allow this. However, I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that the current Naalu Fleet Pool is only 3. Hybrid Crystal fighters still count 1/2 against the Naalu's fleet limit so Lykouragh should indicate which forces he is moving in from the Starpoint system. If he brings the maximum of 4 fighters, both infantry and a fighter must stay behind. Alternatively, he could leave behind the destroyer from Vefut and/or the cruiser from Mehar Xull to bring all his fighters and one or both infantry and still stay within the fleet limit.
beetfarmer
Nope.
Appears to be legal.
He does not exceed capacity / fleet supply in either the activated system nor the original system.
2 fighters supported by home space dock
2 fighters in Carrier with 2 GF
1 fighter unsupported.
2.5 fleet in home system
Heck, 3 fleet supply if the GF in the home system is moved to space.
And there's actually 3 fighters supported by the space dock. So more room to move.
.... and the spacedock on Druaa provides the additional capacity needed to support all 5 fighters and both infantry from Starpoint.
Unless the infantry in Druaa is moved to Space so it can invade.
So you bring up another point: if and when the infantry on Druaa can be moved to space to invade? When the movement to the home system is completed, there is only enough capacity to support two infantry in space on the carrier since the spacedock can only support 3 fighters and so the carrier must support the additional 2. Once the combat is completed, there is a high probability that there will be capacity freed up on the carrier. Can Lykouragh transfer the additional infantry on Druaa to the carrier after space combat is completed but before he initiates invasion combat?
If transfer between space and a planet is allowed between space combat and invasion combat, then it would always be better to land infantry on a planet before space combat and then pick them up again afterwards. That way, it frees up more capacity to support fighters during combat and it avoids the possibility of losing ground forces if a carrier is destroyed.
However, if one reads through the sequence of a tactical action in the rules reference, section 78 states:
78.4 STEP 4—INVASION: The active player may use his
“Bombardment” abilities, commit units to land on planets, and
resolve ground combat against other players’ units.
To me, this suggests that the attacker cannot land his ground forces on planets in the system (even friendly ones) until he has defeated the defending ships. This makes thematic sense to me as the defending ships could be blockading the enemy planet. However, there is no mention of whether ground forces can be moved to space in between space combat and invasion combat. In fact, if a player wishes to retreat from a system with ground forces on a planet, he is allowed to move those ground forces to space after announcing a retreat (although that means they could be destroyed if the ships providing the capacity are themselves destroyed during the round of combat that occurs between announcing a retreat and executing it).
Maybe this is a question for the designer but in the absence of a ruling from FFG, I guess MrBlarney will be the one to decide.
When a ship moves, it may transport any combination of fighters and ground forces, but the number of units it transports cannot exceed that ship’s capacity value.
84.1 The ship can pick up and transport fighters and ground forces when it moves. During a tactical action, it can pick up and transport units from the active system, the system it started its movement in, and each system it moves through.
These transported units can only be dropped off in the active system.
84.2 Any fighters and ground forces that a ship transports must move with the ship and remain in the space area of a system.
84.3 Fighters and ground forces cannot be picked up from a system that contains one of their faction’s command tokens other than the active system.
84.4 A player can land ground forces on a planet in a system during the “Invasion” step of a tactical action.
This sounds like you may pick up troops from the activated system regardless of enemy forces, if you have capacity to do so. Naalu does - 3 fighters supported by space dock, 1 by carrier, 2 in space + 2 other ships
Except that Naalu is moving in five fighters, two ground forces, a carrier and two other ships and has a fleet pool of three. That means the ground force on Druaa would need to be picked up after movement is completed and sometime after space combat has begun once capacity on the carrier is freed up (presumably by the loss of a ship in combat -- it doesn't have to be a fighter since Hybrid Crystal fighters are self-supporting and only count 1/2 towards the fleet supply limit) but prior to the start of invasion combat. Of course, the carrier would need to survive space combat to support the infantry in space at the point that invasion combat begins.
... and the spacedock on Druaa provides the additional capacity needed to support all 5 fighters and both infantry from Starpoint.
Unless the infantry in Druaa is moved to Space so it can invade.
So you bring up another point: if and when the infantry on Druaa can be moved to space to invade? ... Can Lykouragh transfer the additional infantry on Druaa to the carrier after space combat is completed but before he initiates invasion combat?
As noted by Phyphor, units must be loaded (moved to Space) during the movement step of a Tactical Action, before space combat occurs. And the presence of the Space Dock in the home system makes the movement of all ships okay. It's a pretty unusual situation, but it looks fine to me.
Round 6 - Naalu Movement Back to Home System
Pre-Combat Effects
Naalu has 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Carrier, and 5 Hybrid Crystal Fighter IIs (carrying 2 Infantry).
N'orr has 1 Exotrireme II, 1 Carrier II, and 3 Fighters.
Naalu has 1 PDS unit in range for Space Cannon Offense.
So.. if we had to look at capacity on route, then the Carrier could move 'first', bringing a fleet of 3 across with 4 fighters flying themselves.
Three fighters 'settle' into the space dock, then the Cruiser accompanies.
But @Lykouragh still needs to specify whether his GF in his home system is now in space, just in case the Carrier is destroyed.
And if the scenario were slightly different and the Carrier did not have enough possible capacity to transport both the fighters and the Druaa GF, the Druaa GF would have to stay on the planet.
Much like one of my Cruisers could not transport a GF from one planet and a supported fighter into a system, even if there was fighter support capacity in that system.
Capacity is full after the Movement step, with the Space Dock supporting 3 Fighters and Carrier supporting 2 Fighters and 2 Infantry. There's no room for the Infantry on Druaa to go to space since, due to Fleet Pool limits, there's no room for the Fighters to become unsupported.
Capacity is full after the Movement step, with the Space Dock supporting 3 Fighters and Carrier supporting 2 Fighters and 2 Infantry. There's no room for the Infantry on Druaa to go to space since, due to Fleet Pool limits, there's no room for the Fighters to become unsupported.
There's only a carrier and cruiser in the system though?
So two fighters can be unsupported?
Nvm.
This is why I don't read the map on my phone.
No extra capacity is right
The Destroyer also moved in from Vefut II. I should also note that, despite the order to move "everything", the Infantry was left on Vefut II due to lack of Capacity. That is, the status update logs will translate
I'm very confused by all this and openly admit that I just didn't think about capacity, so I'm glad it seems to have worked out.
Basically, you exceeded Fleet Supply in the middle of the move, but not at either end, where Fleet Supply is checked.
This is because there is no Space Dock accompanying your fighters between systems.
If you didn't have Crystal Fighters, I don't think the move would be valid, because the Carrier would not be able to transport everything.
Even though your capacity is sufficient at both ends (but not in the middle).
Hey hey, we're back. Last time on Twilight Imperium, the Naalu high command recalled their ships back to the home system. Friendly PDS cannon fire greeted the returning fleet, landing shots on the N'orr ships stationed.
@MrBody to assign a hit, before moving on to space combat proper (including Naalu's Anti-Fighter Barrage rolls).
Naalu has 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Carrier, and 5 Hybrid Crystal Fighter IIs (carrying 2 Infantry).
N'orr has 1 Exotrireme II (damaged), 1 Carrier II, and 3 Fighters.
Naalu has 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Carrier, and 5 Hybrid Crystal Fighter IIs (carrying 2 Infantry).
N'orr has 1 Exotrireme II (damaged), 1 Carrier II, and 2 Fighters.
Geth roll 1d10t7+1d10t9+1d10t9+5d10t7 for Naalu
Geth roll 1d10t4+1d10t8+2d10t8 for N'orr
That went surprisingly well! I'm posting from mobile so apologies in advance for any mistakes.
land both gf on maaluk. Regardless of combat outcome tap vefut to build two fighters and two gf.... I did check capacity this time and I think with the space dock I should be ok.
N'orr scores one hit in the first round of combat, destroying 1 Naalu Infantry.
Each side scores one hit in the second round of combat, destroying 1 Infantry on each side.
This leaves 1 N'orr Infantry at the end of the second round; combat ends in favor of N'orr.
The Druaa Space Dock produces 2 Fighters and 2 Infantry.
Posts
Hey!
I need all the red techs.
And at least the destroyers were cheap to hang an Assault Cannon off.
On the other hand, Magen is the single worst generic tech in the game, and the rest of the reds fall under "nice, but not that great". The podcast made a great point that Graviton belongs in the red branch and should replace Magen.
Integrated Economy sucks.
You still have to pay resources to use it.
So you're spamming infantry I guess?
Their racial ability is amazing.
edit: my mistake, I was thinking the resource value only applied to the build limit, not the total cost. That's less amazing. Still, replenishing your fighter screen and infantry force on the go is still a lot better than anything the red branch offers.
Not so sure about this one?
Perhaps if your ships are slow.
IE doesn't have any unit to hang Sarween off.
And Red just blasts through the fighter screen so meh.
I also don't count the level 1 techs as part of the tree.
Anyone can get them without specialisation, and most get some for free.
So it's less about the relative strength of the trees and more about the racial advantages.
You still need transport capacity to double attack with, which implies you have either a two-step invasion going on, or you're concentrating your GF for the purposes of the invasion.
The first is costly to do, and the second seems to be done better and cheaper by Cruiser IIs.
So in all, yellow seems to me to be the same strength as red generally but without anything cool at the end of it.
And yes, everyone takes Sarween, but that doesn't compel anyone to devote more resources to running up the tree.
But at least there's War Suns and Assault Cannons at the end.
Green and Blue are much better.
It would seem that Discrider and Ketar were very quick to point out the error that Mr Body made in thinking he could retreat his forces from the Naalu home system when the rules do not allow this. However, I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that the current Naalu Fleet Pool is only 3. Hybrid Crystal fighters still count 1/2 against the Naalu's fleet limit so Lykouragh should indicate which forces he is moving in from the Starpoint system. If he brings the maximum of 4 fighters, both infantry and a fighter must stay behind. Alternatively, he could leave behind the destroyer from Vefut and/or the cruiser from Mehar Xull to bring all his fighters and one or both infantry and still stay within the fleet limit.
No, I'm wrong. It appears that the fleet limit is not imposed during movement, only once the fleet is in the destination system.
34.3 If at any time the number of a player’s ships in a system
exceeds the number of tokens in his fleet pool, he chooses and
destroys excess ships in that system.
Sorry about that!
beetfarmer
Nope.
Appears to be legal.
He does not exceed capacity / fleet supply in either the activated system nor the original system.
2 fighters supported by home space dock
2 fighters in Carrier with 2 GF
1 fighter unsupported.
2.5 fleet in home system
Heck, 3 fleet supply if the GF in the home system is moved to space.
And there's actually 3 fighters supported by the space dock. So more room to move.
Unless the infantry in Druaa is moved to Space so it can invade.
Looks like we cross posted. You pointed out my mistake while I was editing my post.
So you bring up another point: if and when the infantry on Druaa can be moved to space to invade? When the movement to the home system is completed, there is only enough capacity to support two infantry in space on the carrier since the spacedock can only support 3 fighters and so the carrier must support the additional 2. Once the combat is completed, there is a high probability that there will be capacity freed up on the carrier. Can Lykouragh transfer the additional infantry on Druaa to the carrier after space combat is completed but before he initiates invasion combat?
If transfer between space and a planet is allowed between space combat and invasion combat, then it would always be better to land infantry on a planet before space combat and then pick them up again afterwards. That way, it frees up more capacity to support fighters during combat and it avoids the possibility of losing ground forces if a carrier is destroyed.
However, if one reads through the sequence of a tactical action in the rules reference, section 78 states:
78.4 STEP 4—INVASION: The active player may use his
“Bombardment” abilities, commit units to land on planets, and
resolve ground combat against other players’ units.
To me, this suggests that the attacker cannot land his ground forces on planets in the system (even friendly ones) until he has defeated the defending ships. This makes thematic sense to me as the defending ships could be blockading the enemy planet. However, there is no mention of whether ground forces can be moved to space in between space combat and invasion combat. In fact, if a player wishes to retreat from a system with ground forces on a planet, he is allowed to move those ground forces to space after announcing a retreat (although that means they could be destroyed if the ships providing the capacity are themselves destroyed during the round of combat that occurs between announcing a retreat and executing it).
Maybe this is a question for the designer but in the absence of a ruling from FFG, I guess MrBlarney will be the one to decide.
This sounds like you may pick up troops from the activated system regardless of enemy forces, if you have capacity to do so. Naalu does - 3 fighters supported by space dock, 1 by carrier, 2 in space + 2 other ships
You can only drop off after combat though
As noted by Phyphor, units must be loaded (moved to Space) during the movement step of a Tactical Action, before space combat occurs. And the presence of the Space Dock in the home system makes the movement of all ships okay. It's a pretty unusual situation, but it looks fine to me.
Round 6 - Naalu Movement Back to Home System
Pre-Combat Effects
Naalu has 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Carrier, and 5 Hybrid Crystal Fighter IIs (carrying 2 Infantry).
N'orr has 1 Exotrireme II, 1 Carrier II, and 3 Fighters.
Naalu has 1 PDS unit in range for Space Cannon Offense.
Geth roll 1d10t6 for Naalu Space Cannon Offense
Three fighters 'settle' into the space dock, then the Cruiser accompanies.
But @Lykouragh still needs to specify whether his GF in his home system is now in space, just in case the Carrier is destroyed.
Much like one of my Cruisers could not transport a GF from one planet and a supported fighter into a system, even if there was fighter support capacity in that system.
There's only a carrier and cruiser in the system though?
So two fighters can be unsupported?
Nvm.
This is why I don't read the map on my phone.
No extra capacity is right
as "Move 1 Carrier, 5 Fighters, and 2 Infantry from New Albion-Starpoint, 1 Cruiser from Mehar Xull, and 1 Destroyer from Vefut II."
Basically, you exceeded Fleet Supply in the middle of the move, but not at either end, where Fleet Supply is checked.
This is because there is no Space Dock accompanying your fighters between systems.
If you didn't have Crystal Fighters, I don't think the move would be valid, because the Carrier would not be able to transport everything.
Even though your capacity is sufficient at both ends (but not in the middle).
@MrBody to assign a hit, before moving on to space combat proper (including Naalu's Anti-Fighter Barrage rolls).
Naalu has 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Carrier, and 5 Hybrid Crystal Fighter IIs (carrying 2 Infantry).
N'orr has 1 Exotrireme II (damaged), 1 Carrier II, and 3 Fighters.
Naalu has 1 Destroyer for Anti-Fighter Barrage.
Geth roll 2d10t9 for Naalu Anti-Fighter Barrage
Combat Round 1
Naalu has 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Carrier, and 5 Hybrid Crystal Fighter IIs (carrying 2 Infantry).
N'orr has 1 Exotrireme II (damaged), 1 Carrier II, and 2 Fighters.
Geth roll 1d10t7+1d10t9+1d10t9+5d10t7 for Naalu
Geth roll 1d10t4+1d10t8+2d10t8 for N'orr
land both gf on maaluk. Regardless of combat outcome tap vefut to build two fighters and two gf.... I did check capacity this time and I think with the space dock I should be ok.
He rolls three 10s and I dont get a single hit
Combat Rounds 1-3
Naalu has 2 Infantry.
N'orr has 2 Infantry.
For expediency, multiple rounds of combat have been rolled. In case of casualties, rolls will be taken from left to right.
Geth roll 3#2d10t8 for Naalu
Geth roll 3#2d10t7 for N'orr
Each side scores one hit in the second round of combat, destroying 1 Infantry on each side.
This leaves 1 N'orr Infantry at the end of the second round; combat ends in favor of N'orr.
The Druaa Space Dock produces 2 Fighters and 2 Infantry.
@Ketar has the next action.