HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited January 2018
Okay yeah I just caught up on today's episode and I'm done for a while and this is really upsetting as it is, thanks for the heads up you two.
Edit - I really, really hope the person(s) that made this game do what they can to promote people getting help when they need it because this shit isn't a joke or some sideshow entertainment.
That's kind of where I am on it. The game does a really good job realistically conveying mental health issues like depression, but the plot point that
all these characters are being deliberately driven insane by an AI seems to undermine anything humanizing it could say about mental illness. It gives it a fantasy angle that I'm not sure sits well with me, especially with how explicit the game is.
I'm still watching to see the reactions but it's flying pretty close to the sun vis a vis using depression as the vehicle for a horror game.
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
I don't usually get too hooked on GG stuff, I think the last time I was this into it was Mario Maker. :P I've been watching the DDLC stuff and I'm a couple days behind right now (1:30am is probably not an appropriate time for me to catch up),
but I looooove this kind of horror. It makes me think a lot of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, which I also thought was great and only watched during daylight. I'm picky about the horror I'll consume because of the vulnerability the genre requires, but for some reason this is intriguing enough for me to eagerly await the next part.
Honestly, I think it helps that it's Dan. I love going through it with Dan, so I'm glad that GG was my intro to this game... Dan has a way of reacting big enough that I can use it as a ground. Can someone recommend another really good playthrough where the person is playing it for the first time?
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
That's kind of where I am on it. The game does a really good job realistically conveying mental health issues like depression, but the plot point that
all these characters are being deliberately driven insane by an AI seems to undermine anything humanizing it could say about mental illness. It gives it a fantasy angle that I'm not sure sits well with me, especially with how explicit the game is.
I'm still watching to see the reactions but it's flying pretty close to the sun vis a vis using depression as the vehicle for a horror game.
I didn’t interpret that plot point that way.
They aren’t being deliberately driven insane.
Monika is turning up certain aspects of their personalities to make them undesirable to the player. It’s just that the nature of the game causes those traits to spiral out of control. Meanwhile she’s trying to make herself desirable to the player and constantly running into roadblocks because the game isn’t built with her as a romance option.
Think of it like following a walkthrough to complete romances in a Bioware game, only Monika is doing it to YOU. Tailoring her responses and personality to speedrun the romance.
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Also, at the end of the day it is a story. If they did a good job of portraying real human emotions in relation to a situation then they just developed good characters. It doesn't need to serve a purpose to be a good story. That would be a bonus yeah. But if they did their homework on some of that shit, then it would first and foremost be to make the story and characters more believable.
I have to say though, by the time the second twist happened I was desensitized to it. So it almost just seemed par the course by that point. I didn't realize it still a super creepy moment coming up because of that.
That's kind of where I am on it. The game does a really good job realistically conveying mental health issues like depression, but the plot point that
all these characters are being deliberately driven insane by an AI seems to undermine anything humanizing it could say about mental illness. It gives it a fantasy angle that I'm not sure sits well with me, especially with how explicit the game is.
I'm still watching to see the reactions but it's flying pretty close to the sun vis a vis using depression as the vehicle for a horror game.
I didn’t interpret that plot point that way.
They aren’t being deliberately driven insane.
Monika is turning up certain aspects of their personalities to make them undesirable to the player. It’s just that the nature of the game causes those traits to spiral out of control. Meanwhile she’s trying to make herself desirable to the player and constantly running into roadblocks because the game isn’t built with her as a romance option.
Think of it like following a walkthrough to complete romances in a Bioware game, only Monika is doing it to YOU. Tailoring her responses and personality to speedrun the romance.
Or that’s my interpretation of the ending anyway.
I don't see a meaningful distinction between "they're being driven insane" and "their emotions are being ratcheted to 13". I'd also probably feel a bit different about it if the emotions didn't all seem to converge on self-harm.
It's also a hundo percent a personal thing. I don't think every piece of media needs to be Socially Responsible and un-problematic. But suicide and child abuse are topics I personally think you gotta really earn, and I'm not sure this game is gonna stick that dismount going by what we've seen so far and the synopsis I've read.
I don't usually get too hooked on GG stuff, I think the last time I was this into it was Mario Maker. :P I've been watching the DDLC stuff and I'm a couple days behind right now (1:30am is probably not an appropriate time for me to catch up),
but I looooove this kind of horror. It makes me think a lot of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, which I also thought was great and only watched during daylight. I'm picky about the horror I'll consume because of the vulnerability the genre requires, but for some reason this is intriguing enough for me to eagerly await the next part.
Honestly, I think it helps that it's Dan. I love going through it with Dan, so I'm glad that GG was my intro to this game... Dan has a way of reacting big enough that I can use it as a ground. Can someone recommend another really good playthrough where the person is playing it for the first time?
Are you looking for another blind DDLC playthrough, or another blind GG playthrough? Because Dan went in/played Shadow of the Colossus blind and it was pretty great, IIRC.
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
Today on Paper Mario, Dan refuses to use any Flower power to use more damaging special moves. Then he uses Whacka Bumps as his healing item, which makes sense since his FP is at full...
He does squeak by this time, but he will need some basic RPG lessons to beat the final boss or it will be IMPOSSIBLE.
0
Options
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Yeah my Wife who is not really a gamer played through all of TTYD, except the last boss. I had to do that for her. It just changes difficulty drastically at that point.
I mentioned it before upthread, but I think that after the first twist in Doki Doki,
there's a reason the game ends and has you start over. It's trying to convey a different message the second time around, and it's not necessarily one grounded in the reality of being friends with a person who is trying to hide their mental illness and maintain a "normal" life, like the first playthrough.
I think the second go through is about you, the player, and about the act of playing dating sims like this. It's about being the sole free entity that a fictional world revolves around, and about how that fictional world is one where a bunch of emotionally vulnerable girls are manipulated, by you, so that they fall in love with you. Like this entire universe is a machine that creates people so that you can toy with them to see if you can get something from them. You sit there completely divorced from all consequence while these characters are bent by a world that forces them to love you, and, at any point, you can just stop the whole thing and walk away.
I think it has shit to say about entertaining the fantasy of that, of the anime harem, and how fucked up it is. And about how fucked up it is that this genre of game is super popular!
That's why it starts coming at you with a different, less human angle as the game progresses.
I mentioned it before upthread, but I think that after the first twist in Doki Doki,
there's a reason the game ends and has you start over. It's trying to convey a different message the second time around, and it's not necessarily one grounded in the reality of being friends with a person who is trying to hide their mental illness and maintain a "normal" life, like the first playthrough.
I think the second go through is about you, the player, and about the act of playing dating sims like this. It's about being the sole free entity that a fictional world revolves around, and about how that fictional world is one where a bunch of emotionally vulnerable girls are manipulated, by you, so that they fall in love with you. Like this entire universe is a machine that creates people so that you can toy with them to see if you can get something from them. You sit there completely divorced from all consequence while these characters are bent by a world that forces them to love you, and, at any point, you can just stop the whole thing and walk away.
I think it has shit to say about entertaining the fantasy of that, of the anime harem, and how fucked up it is. And about how fucked up it is that this genre of game is super popular!
That's why it starts coming at you with a different, less human angle as the game progresses.
Well... (Doki Doki full game spoilers)
I don't necessarily agree that the creator is against dating sims in all contexts. If you get the "best ending" by trying all the routes out BEFORE seeing Sayori's death and having your saves deleted, Sayori's attitude at the end changes. And then you get a letter from the creator where he thinks some people like dating sims because of empathy. He DEFINITELY wrote the second third about the terror of having your mind influenced by an outside source though. And about wanting something even if there's no good reason to want it. The tragedy of Monika is that she's broken the fourth wall and realizes she's a non-important character in a game but still seems to be driven by the same compulsion to love the player that the other characters are. Like, when you delete her, she briefly hates you for doing it... and then decides she's still in love with you after all. So how sentient she actually is is an open question, if she still blindly loves the player no matter what.
What's interesting about Doki Doki as a "standard dating game" is that it's kind of a lazy one. The date you end up on with either Yuri or Natsuki proceeds as romantically whether you've been observing the scenes with that character or not. Even if you've clearly been pursuing Sayori, your character ends up on a cute date with romantic tension with one of the other two anyway. Likewise, even if you've completely been ignoring Sayuri, you can suddenly confess to her before "that moment". Unlike something like Persona where you have to build up a romantic affinity with the character, the characters in Doki Doki start out liking the player and you just need to wander over to receive their affection.
shoeboxjeddy on
0
Options
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I mentioned it before upthread, but I think that after the first twist in Doki Doki,
there's a reason the game ends and has you start over. It's trying to convey a different message the second time around, and it's not necessarily one grounded in the reality of being friends with a person who is trying to hide their mental illness and maintain a "normal" life, like the first playthrough.
I think the second go through is about you, the player, and about the act of playing dating sims like this. It's about being the sole free entity that a fictional world revolves around, and about how that fictional world is one where a bunch of emotionally vulnerable girls are manipulated, by you, so that they fall in love with you. Like this entire universe is a machine that creates people so that you can toy with them to see if you can get something from them. You sit there completely divorced from all consequence while these characters are bent by a world that forces them to love you, and, at any point, you can just stop the whole thing and walk away.
I think it has shit to say about entertaining the fantasy of that, of the anime harem, and how fucked up it is. And about how fucked up it is that this genre of game is super popular!
That's why it starts coming at you with a different, less human angle as the game progresses.
Well... (Doki Doki full game spoilers)
I don't necessarily agree that the creator is against dating sims in all contexts. If you get the "best ending" by trying all the routes out BEFORE seeing Sayori's death and having your saves deleted, Sayori's attitude at the end changes. And then you get a letter from the creator where he thinks some people like dating sims because of empathy. He DEFINITELY wrote the second third about the terror of having your mind influenced by an outside source though. And about wanting something even if there's no good reason to want it. The tragedy of Monika is that she's broken the fourth wall and realizes she's a non-important character in a game but still seems to be driven by the same compulsion to love the player that the other characters are. Like, when you delete her, she briefly hates you for doing it... and then decides she's still in love with you after all. So how sentient she actually is is an open question, if she still blindly loves the player no matter what.
What's interesting about Doki Doki as a "standard dating game" is that it's kind of a lazy one. The date you end up on with either Yuri or Natsuki proceeds as romantically whether you've been observing the scenes with that character or not. Even if you've clearly been pursuing Sayori, your character ends up on a cute date with romantic tension with one of the other two anyway. Likewise, even if you've completely been ignoring Sayuri, you can suddenly confess to her before "that moment". Unlike something like Persona where you have to build up a romantic affinity with the character, the characters in Doki Doki start out liking the player and you just need to wander over to receive their affection.
I mean, the game really doesn't TRY to be a real dating sim. It acts like one enough to be somewhat convincing, then becomes just a visual novel way of fucking with you.
Also, the second half is simply the game breaking apart because Monika screwed it up. The creepy stuff is just supposed to be creepy. I think the writer tried to make it make sense, but in the end the goal was to freak you the hell out and not seem like it was still a functional dating sim at all. The file you can find after Monika deletes Sayori basically shows she isn't sure what is going to happen and is trying to make it work. Which is why it starts up all glitched and then just gets rewritten without Sayo.
It is good writing, and a well executed idea. But it's not the next great American Novel. I think people need to stop trying to hard to find such depth that shouldn't exist. It is written well enough to make you want to do that, so that alone should mean it did it's job. But it is not supposed to be raising awareness for mental health issues in people, or completely enthrall you with realistic relationship representations. It is not supposed to be the top 3 choice making game of all time. It is just a nice idea executed well enough and kind of having game elements just enough to not make it a pure visual novel.
It's kind of akin to expecting GTA to raise awareness for gang violence or something. It's not fair to label some topics as untouchable because it rubs you the wrong way.
I must admit, DDLC is the only GG series I've been watching every day. The game itself is corny and silly, but Dan's reactions are great. It's hilarious how overly freaked out he gets while Arin just eggs him on.
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
It's kind of akin to expecting GTA to raise awareness for gang violence or something. It's not fair to label some topics as untouchable because it rubs you the wrong way.
I would say fairplay for the game having very overt trigger warnings on the Steam page and as the game begins. GTA never bothered with such a thing.
Right, I'm all for avoiding the topics if they are hard to watch, but it's of like virtue signalling or maybe just censorship if you just don't want games to tackle tough subjects. As the saying goes, art exists because the world is imperfect.
0
Options
KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
Also, again. Trigger warning for the tomorrow's episode.
Right, I'm all for avoiding the topics if they are hard to watch, but it's of like virtue signalling or maybe just censorship if you just don't want games to tackle tough subjects. As the saying goes, art exists because the world is imperfect.
Censorship is some unrelated authoritarian agency coming in and changing the content (or denying it). I'm not saying it's wrong to have this stuff as game content, I'm saying there's a way to handle it or recognize how it matters in the real world. The game doesn't have to do it, and the content author doesn't have to dedicate their life to it, but I would hope they understand what they're using for their entertainment piece and what it means to others.
If that counts as 'censorship' or I'm otherwise somehow wrong for caring about a topic, I don't want to be right. FFS the worst thing to come to the video game enthusiast space is condemning having consideration of others or the shit they go through, even if they're just sharing what they went through without saying "THIS ISN'T ALLOWED." That's the kind of behavior that makes me wish video games were banned because it's not worth the assholes that are coming up in this useless-ass 'culture.'
Edit - And just to make sure there's no mistakes here, you may recall my posts say that I am taking a break. None of what I said was rooted in "how dare the Game Grumps," or "you guys should stop watching too," or anything. But calling my personal concerns and choice of action 'virtue signalling' or whatever is a really mean and disingenuous way to frame my posts. I really want to yell at you Jay but I'm hoping for the best here.
Well I think it goes both ways. You can understand there are sensitive topics and also be aware skirting those issues doesn't make them go away. Maybe the creator has personal experience with the issues at hand, maybe not; doesn't change that it's just fiction.
We're in a hypersensitive culture these days and sometimes art can stand on its own. What you take away from it is up to you, personally. I'm also a person with depression, suicidal thoughts, in therapy, recovering alcoholic, etc and yet watching movies or playing games about these topics are still important to me. Trying to hide away from things that can trouble you can do more harm than good in some cases. I'm all for awareness and such, but you're taking the wrong person to task for these things.
Well I think it goes both ways. You can understand there are sensitive topics and also be aware skirting those issues doesn't make them go away. Maybe the creator has personal experience with the issues at hand, maybe not; doesn't change that it's just fiction.
We're in a hypersensitive culture these days and sometimes art can stand on its own. What you take away from it is up to you, personally. I'm also a person with depression, suicidal thoughts, in therapy, recovering alcoholic, etc and yet watching movies or playing games about these topics are still important to me. Trying to hide away from things that can trouble you can do more harm than good in some cases. I'm all for awareness and such, but you're taking the wrong person to task for these things.
Quote from the creator's AMA: "Yes, I have used real-life experiences as the basis for Sayori's behavior, as well as various traits that the other club members exhibit. I think because of that, it felt very natural for me to write the characters like I did, with those kinds of conflicts. I was very moved when I found out how strongly people related to some of the characters' insecurities, and I think that wouldn't have been possible had I not been so closely acquainted with similar people in my own life."
I wasn't trying to get personal Henroid, I just think certain places like tumblr love to take a thing and just hate it for arbitrary reasons without looking at the substance of the material. I know you are coming from a place of concern, but that doesnt make the creators morally responsible for raising awareness for issues like these.
Not to get too personal, but regarding the first major twist (More DDLC spoilers)
I had a friend who hanged himself in a similar manner back when I was younger. I actually appreciated the game for giving me a hint of what he might have been going through because it's not something I will ever fully understand. If I played DDLC the day afterwards, I would have been WRECKED, but with emotional distance now, I can enjoy it as an unsettling horror story and something with greater themes to it. We know that Sayori is depressed (unclear if she would have been suicidally depressed without Monika's meddling), Yuri is a cutter with social anxiety, and the one not fully explored by the game, Natsuki seems to have an abusive father figure and is likely being bullied by people outside of the club. I never got the sense that this is a gimmick, more its the suggestion that a lot of other harem style stuff is reductive while the characters in this game have some serious shit going on in the background.
+2
Options
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I was not referencing anyone directly either. I just have very strong feelings about telling creators how they should create things based on "rules" we have to follow. I believe that someone should be able to write about any topic weather they are an expert on it or not. I also believe offense should generally be based on the intent of a topic, not just the existence of it. Of course, one can still be offended or affected and that is fine, but don't place blame on the fiction because of it. Not that anyone is in this case, but I don't like skirting the idea that someone shouldn't be able to write about something if they can't do so without doing it perfectly because it might hurt someone. As long as the intent wasn't to hurt the person, than it simply needs to be understood it was just a topic they wanted to write about and any pain it may cause was because of what is a perfectly normal lack of understanding of every person's specific situation that just flat out is going to always exist. Like, no matter how hard you try some topics are going to adversely affect someone somewhere just because of their specific life experiences.
Reading that the writer of DDLC actually wrote these characters based on real life experiences unfortunately proves the point that it might be stretching too far for some people to claim it was written with ignorance just because it's not the best writing ever.
If anything this conversation proves the game does raise awareness just by being out there; it's a horror game with mature themes and yet it's still hitting close to home for a lot of us. Good art is reflective of our lives and while it can be hard to watch, it is comforting to know you aren't alone in dealing with the shit life piles on you.
That's kind of where I am on it. The game does a really good job realistically conveying mental health issues like depression, but the plot point that
all these characters are being deliberately driven insane by an AI seems to undermine anything humanizing it could say about mental illness. It gives it a fantasy angle that I'm not sure sits well with me, especially with how explicit the game is.
I'm still watching to see the reactions but it's flying pretty close to the sun vis a vis using depression as the vehicle for a horror game.
I didn’t interpret that plot point that way.
They aren’t being deliberately driven insane.
Monika is turning up certain aspects of their personalities to make them undesirable to the player. It’s just that the nature of the game causes those traits to spiral out of control. Meanwhile she’s trying to make herself desirable to the player and constantly running into roadblocks because the game isn’t built with her as a romance option.
Think of it like following a walkthrough to complete romances in a Bioware game, only Monika is doing it to YOU. Tailoring her responses and personality to speedrun the romance.
Or that’s my interpretation of the ending anyway.
Something I didn't pick up on my first watch of DDLC:
(Mega spoilers)
On second viewing, its pretty obvious that Monika is the odd one out; that she doesn't belong in the game's world at all:
You've got three girls with Japanese names, and then there's "Monika"
As Taramoor points out, it feels like Monika runs into problems trying to court the player character because the game simply isn't designed with her in mind as a romance option... or maybe it isn't designed with her in mind at all
When Sayori is deleted, everything starts going to shit. When Monika is deleted, the game (initially at least) carries on just fine without her, e.g, there's no glitched Monika left on the title screen
What I haven't quite figured out yet is how this factors in to what happens in the final loop. If Monika is the only "real" person in the game, then what's the deal with Sayori's little takeover attempt at the very end? She says something like "Now that I'm president, I know all about Monika... I know everything". Which sort of implies to me that they're all real, but only the President gets endowed with sentience and the ability to edit the game. I'm pretty certain that Sayori is real at least, and I think its her calling for help in the brief moment after Monika's poem last episode. I.e, the one that starts with "Save me" and ends with "Delete her"; that's Sayori's consciousness leaking through into Monika.
What does all this mean? Fucked if I know, guess we'll just have to wait for Team Salvato's next game.
That's kind of where I am on it. The game does a really good job realistically conveying mental health issues like depression, but the plot point that
all these characters are being deliberately driven insane by an AI seems to undermine anything humanizing it could say about mental illness. It gives it a fantasy angle that I'm not sure sits well with me, especially with how explicit the game is.
I'm still watching to see the reactions but it's flying pretty close to the sun vis a vis using depression as the vehicle for a horror game.
I didn’t interpret that plot point that way.
They aren’t being deliberately driven insane.
Monika is turning up certain aspects of their personalities to make them undesirable to the player. It’s just that the nature of the game causes those traits to spiral out of control. Meanwhile she’s trying to make herself desirable to the player and constantly running into roadblocks because the game isn’t built with her as a romance option.
Think of it like following a walkthrough to complete romances in a Bioware game, only Monika is doing it to YOU. Tailoring her responses and personality to speedrun the romance.
Or that’s my interpretation of the ending anyway.
Something I didn't pick up on my first watch of DDLC:
(Mega spoilers)
On second viewing, its pretty obvious that Monika is the odd one out; that she doesn't belong in the game's world at all:
You've got three girls with Japanese names, and then there's "Monika"
As Taramoor points out, it feels like Monika runs into problems trying to court the player character because the game simply isn't designed with her in mind as a romance option... or maybe it isn't designed with her in mind at all
When Sayori is deleted, everything starts going to shit. When Monika is deleted, the game (initially at least) carries on just fine without her, e.g, there's no glitched Monika left on the title screen
What I haven't quite figured out yet is how this factors in to what happens in the final loop. If Monika is the only "real" person in the game, then what's the deal with Sayori's little takeover attempt at the very end? She says something like "Now that I'm president, I know all about Monika... I know everything". Which sort of implies to me that they're all real, but only the President gets endowed with sentience and the ability to edit the game. I'm pretty certain that Sayori is real at least, and I think its her calling for help in the brief moment after Monika's poem last episode. I.e, the one that starts with "Save me" and ends with "Delete her"; that's Sayori's consciousness leaking through into Monika.
What does all this mean? Fucked if I know, guess we'll just have to wait for Team Salvato's next game.
My guess was that
The Club President's role was supposed to just be a helper to the Player romancing one of the girls, but then something happened (check out Monika's first poem for a hint as to what this could have been) that tips the President off to the existence of game files, which then tips her off to the existence of the console, the PC, and the player. Whatever break in the 4th wall that exists, Sayori is exposed to it the moment she comes back from "deletion" (Monika claims later that she basically removed the file and didn't fully delete it because she couldn't bring herself to do it) and it quickly drives her even more intensely insane realizing Monika's betrayal and the screwed up system they exist in. Monika isn't fully gone either though, since she deletes the rest of the game rather than let things get even worse, her attempt at a good ending foiled by the same thing that gave her the knowledge that messed her up in the first place (?).
+1
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Okay I'm glad the maker has some personal experience to draw on, that's enough to alleviate my concerns here.
That said I'm still taking a break from watching because the subject matter is too much for me to handle at the moment.
That's kind of where I am on it. The game does a really good job realistically conveying mental health issues like depression, but the plot point that
all these characters are being deliberately driven insane by an AI seems to undermine anything humanizing it could say about mental illness. It gives it a fantasy angle that I'm not sure sits well with me, especially with how explicit the game is.
I'm still watching to see the reactions but it's flying pretty close to the sun vis a vis using depression as the vehicle for a horror game.
I didn’t interpret that plot point that way.
They aren’t being deliberately driven insane.
Monika is turning up certain aspects of their personalities to make them undesirable to the player. It’s just that the nature of the game causes those traits to spiral out of control. Meanwhile she’s trying to make herself desirable to the player and constantly running into roadblocks because the game isn’t built with her as a romance option.
Think of it like following a walkthrough to complete romances in a Bioware game, only Monika is doing it to YOU. Tailoring her responses and personality to speedrun the romance.
Or that’s my interpretation of the ending anyway.
Something I didn't pick up on my first watch of DDLC:
(Mega spoilers)
On second viewing, its pretty obvious that Monika is the odd one out; that she doesn't belong in the game's world at all:
You've got three girls with Japanese names, and then there's "Monika"
As Taramoor points out, it feels like Monika runs into problems trying to court the player character because the game simply isn't designed with her in mind as a romance option... or maybe it isn't designed with her in mind at all
When Sayori is deleted, everything starts going to shit. When Monika is deleted, the game (initially at least) carries on just fine without her, e.g, there's no glitched Monika left on the title screen
What I haven't quite figured out yet is how this factors in to what happens in the final loop. If Monika is the only "real" person in the game, then what's the deal with Sayori's little takeover attempt at the very end? She says something like "Now that I'm president, I know all about Monika... I know everything". Which sort of implies to me that they're all real, but only the President gets endowed with sentience and the ability to edit the game. I'm pretty certain that Sayori is real at least, and I think its her calling for help in the brief moment after Monika's poem last episode. I.e, the one that starts with "Save me" and ends with "Delete her"; that's Sayori's consciousness leaking through into Monika.
What does all this mean? Fucked if I know, guess we'll just have to wait for Team Salvato's next game.
Not exactly supported by anything but a few joke lines, but my thoughts, big spoilers:
Monika is a new character added into the American translated version of an extremely generic Japanese dating sim. That's why she's the one giving the pitch on the main page.
At one point someone makes a joke that Monika must like squid (ika) because her name is Mon-ika. To which Monika replies, "That doesn't even make sense with the translation!" And the other girl is visibly confused, says something like, "What are you talking about?" And then Monika immediately changes the subject.
I just thought it was a throw-away joke, as I was also mentally pronouncing her name Mon-ika to go along with the other Japanese names. But it also kinda fits in with the story, where she doesn't look like the others, doesn't have her own route, etc. Like she was added in later in production. Or she added herself in!
Similarly Monika brings up Shel Silverstein, which doesn't make sense if she's supposed to be in Japan. Almost like she doesn't know any Japanese stuff outside of what's in the game.
Ooh, I like that. Also tangentally related, this DDLC graffiti showed up in my city:
(No spoilers)
So... that's a thing that exists.
+6
Options
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
Re: DDLC, keeping in mind that I'm not completely caught up,
I'm not sure how on this will prove to be, but one of my first thoughts after Sayori was found dead and the thing reboots all glitchy... for me, it felt like a) dealing with the wake of a close friend's suicide, and the cycles one goes through especially as an adolescent trying to cope in the aftermath. After the suicides of the various people in my life who were, or had been at one time, close to me, how many times did I so badly wish I could rewrite history? Do it again with more closure or a better outcome? Can't happen though. Was I better off not having known them to avoid what I'm feeling now? I would try to think through my life that way, but the holes left are wide and jarring and inescapable. The only way to get through for a little while seems to be to pretend none of it happened.
b) There are certain realities one faces, especially as an adolescent, when dealing with a friend with severe and yet mostly invisible mental illness while desperately trying to fight your own. When I was a teenager, I would say that at least three of my closest friends and I all had some pretty crippling mental illnesses ranging from severe depression to cyclic mood disorders to misdiagnosed schizophrenia. We were all at various points suicidal. We all self-harmed. We were not very good at talking each other down because some part of us was always talking ourselves down, and it really made us less effective in the "emotional support" department. This is an issue that I don't feel gets enough air time - suicide awareness/prevention always seems to come with the narrative that one person is suffering in silence while everyone around them is oblivious because they are all too busy being okay. We all knew damn well what was up in each other's heads, and we did the best we could, but we only had so much to give each other. So when I think of an AI pulling strings to drive people mad, I don't think of it as taking away from the humanity of the situation at all, but rather adding something to the scenario in the form of each's individual chemical (im)balance, something written inside of each of us and pulling strings we can't control. And in the case of my one friend, literally making static in her hearing and vision and telling her everything is snafu. We, as those with such imbalances, need to navigate these interactions while every input we receive must be viewed through the fog of whatever our brain is doing that day. Did he really just say that? Eh, seems fine now. At least someone wants to talk to me today. NEXT THING.
In the end though, it's horror. It's meant to take a scenario and turn it twisted. If you aren't uncomfortable, it isn't doing its job. I think the genre requires a certain vulnerability, meaning you need to go into it ready to open yourself up to feeling something awful. If you don't intend to do that and it catches you off guard it can feel like a violation, and in a way I think that's what makes this game so effective in its genre: it has the ability to really sneak up on the person who is too busy being okay to pick up on what later seem as though they should have been obvious cues. But the people in the story aren't reacting that way. She writes fucked up poetry and that was a fucking weird thing to say but at least she is talking to me maybe I'm not completely worthless after all. NEXT THING.
Or at least, that's how my brain runs the numbers.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
Posts
Edit - I really, really hope the person(s) that made this game do what they can to promote people getting help when they need it because this shit isn't a joke or some sideshow entertainment.
I'm still watching to see the reactions but it's flying pretty close to the sun vis a vis using depression as the vehicle for a horror game.
Honestly, I think it helps that it's Dan. I love going through it with Dan, so I'm glad that GG was my intro to this game... Dan has a way of reacting big enough that I can use it as a ground. Can someone recommend another really good playthrough where the person is playing it for the first time?
I didn’t interpret that plot point that way.
Monika is turning up certain aspects of their personalities to make them undesirable to the player. It’s just that the nature of the game causes those traits to spiral out of control. Meanwhile she’s trying to make herself desirable to the player and constantly running into roadblocks because the game isn’t built with her as a romance option.
Think of it like following a walkthrough to complete romances in a Bioware game, only Monika is doing it to YOU. Tailoring her responses and personality to speedrun the romance.
Or that’s my interpretation of the ending anyway.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
I have to say though, by the time the second twist happened I was desensitized to it. So it almost just seemed par the course by that point. I didn't realize it still a super creepy moment coming up because of that.
It's also a hundo percent a personal thing. I don't think every piece of media needs to be Socially Responsible and un-problematic. But suicide and child abuse are topics I personally think you gotta really earn, and I'm not sure this game is gonna stick that dismount going by what we've seen so far and the synopsis I've read.
Are you looking for another blind DDLC playthrough, or another blind GG playthrough? Because Dan went in/played Shadow of the Colossus blind and it was pretty great, IIRC.
if you like the Grumps freaking out at horror things, might I suggest the PT playthrough
Dan didn’t know Sheik and Zelda were the same person.
Ocarina was a hell of a thing to watch.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
except for one major recurring thing in the late game
I think the second go through is about you, the player, and about the act of playing dating sims like this. It's about being the sole free entity that a fictional world revolves around, and about how that fictional world is one where a bunch of emotionally vulnerable girls are manipulated, by you, so that they fall in love with you. Like this entire universe is a machine that creates people so that you can toy with them to see if you can get something from them. You sit there completely divorced from all consequence while these characters are bent by a world that forces them to love you, and, at any point, you can just stop the whole thing and walk away.
I think it has shit to say about entertaining the fantasy of that, of the anime harem, and how fucked up it is. And about how fucked up it is that this genre of game is super popular!
That's why it starts coming at you with a different, less human angle as the game progresses.
Well... (Doki Doki full game spoilers)
What's interesting about Doki Doki as a "standard dating game" is that it's kind of a lazy one. The date you end up on with either Yuri or Natsuki proceeds as romantically whether you've been observing the scenes with that character or not. Even if you've clearly been pursuing Sayori, your character ends up on a cute date with romantic tension with one of the other two anyway. Likewise, even if you've completely been ignoring Sayuri, you can suddenly confess to her before "that moment". Unlike something like Persona where you have to build up a romantic affinity with the character, the characters in Doki Doki start out liking the player and you just need to wander over to receive their affection.
Also, the second half is simply the game breaking apart because Monika screwed it up. The creepy stuff is just supposed to be creepy. I think the writer tried to make it make sense, but in the end the goal was to freak you the hell out and not seem like it was still a functional dating sim at all. The file you can find after Monika deletes Sayori basically shows she isn't sure what is going to happen and is trying to make it work. Which is why it starts up all glitched and then just gets rewritten without Sayo.
It is good writing, and a well executed idea. But it's not the next great American Novel. I think people need to stop trying to hard to find such depth that shouldn't exist. It is written well enough to make you want to do that, so that alone should mean it did it's job. But it is not supposed to be raising awareness for mental health issues in people, or completely enthrall you with realistic relationship representations. It is not supposed to be the top 3 choice making game of all time. It is just a nice idea executed well enough and kind of having game elements just enough to not make it a pure visual novel.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
I would say fairplay for the game having very overt trigger warnings on the Steam page and as the game begins. GTA never bothered with such a thing.
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah
If that counts as 'censorship' or I'm otherwise somehow wrong for caring about a topic, I don't want to be right. FFS the worst thing to come to the video game enthusiast space is condemning having consideration of others or the shit they go through, even if they're just sharing what they went through without saying "THIS ISN'T ALLOWED." That's the kind of behavior that makes me wish video games were banned because it's not worth the assholes that are coming up in this useless-ass 'culture.'
Edit - And just to make sure there's no mistakes here, you may recall my posts say that I am taking a break. None of what I said was rooted in "how dare the Game Grumps," or "you guys should stop watching too," or anything. But calling my personal concerns and choice of action 'virtue signalling' or whatever is a really mean and disingenuous way to frame my posts. I really want to yell at you Jay but I'm hoping for the best here.
We're in a hypersensitive culture these days and sometimes art can stand on its own. What you take away from it is up to you, personally. I'm also a person with depression, suicidal thoughts, in therapy, recovering alcoholic, etc and yet watching movies or playing games about these topics are still important to me. Trying to hide away from things that can trouble you can do more harm than good in some cases. I'm all for awareness and such, but you're taking the wrong person to task for these things.
Reading that the writer of DDLC actually wrote these characters based on real life experiences unfortunately proves the point that it might be stretching too far for some people to claim it was written with ignorance just because it's not the best writing ever.
Something I didn't pick up on my first watch of DDLC:
(Mega spoilers)
What I haven't quite figured out yet is how this factors in to what happens in the final loop. If Monika is the only "real" person in the game, then what's the deal with Sayori's little takeover attempt at the very end? She says something like "Now that I'm president, I know all about Monika... I know everything". Which sort of implies to me that they're all real, but only the President gets endowed with sentience and the ability to edit the game. I'm pretty certain that Sayori is real at least, and I think its her calling for help in the brief moment after Monika's poem last episode. I.e, the one that starts with "Save me" and ends with "Delete her"; that's Sayori's consciousness leaking through into Monika.
What does all this mean? Fucked if I know, guess we'll just have to wait for Team Salvato's next game.
My guess was that
That said I'm still taking a break from watching because the subject matter is too much for me to handle at the moment.
You'll want to avoid it for a while. Next episode needs an extra trigger warning, I think.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
Not exactly supported by anything but a few joke lines, but my thoughts, big spoilers:
At one point someone makes a joke that Monika must like squid (ika) because her name is Mon-ika. To which Monika replies, "That doesn't even make sense with the translation!" And the other girl is visibly confused, says something like, "What are you talking about?" And then Monika immediately changes the subject.
I just thought it was a throw-away joke, as I was also mentally pronouncing her name Mon-ika to go along with the other Japanese names. But it also kinda fits in with the story, where she doesn't look like the others, doesn't have her own route, etc. Like she was added in later in production. Or she added herself in!
Similarly Monika brings up Shel Silverstein, which doesn't make sense if she's supposed to be in Japan. Almost like she doesn't know any Japanese stuff outside of what's in the game.
(No spoilers)
So... that's a thing that exists.
b) There are certain realities one faces, especially as an adolescent, when dealing with a friend with severe and yet mostly invisible mental illness while desperately trying to fight your own. When I was a teenager, I would say that at least three of my closest friends and I all had some pretty crippling mental illnesses ranging from severe depression to cyclic mood disorders to misdiagnosed schizophrenia. We were all at various points suicidal. We all self-harmed. We were not very good at talking each other down because some part of us was always talking ourselves down, and it really made us less effective in the "emotional support" department. This is an issue that I don't feel gets enough air time - suicide awareness/prevention always seems to come with the narrative that one person is suffering in silence while everyone around them is oblivious because they are all too busy being okay. We all knew damn well what was up in each other's heads, and we did the best we could, but we only had so much to give each other. So when I think of an AI pulling strings to drive people mad, I don't think of it as taking away from the humanity of the situation at all, but rather adding something to the scenario in the form of each's individual chemical (im)balance, something written inside of each of us and pulling strings we can't control. And in the case of my one friend, literally making static in her hearing and vision and telling her everything is snafu. We, as those with such imbalances, need to navigate these interactions while every input we receive must be viewed through the fog of whatever our brain is doing that day. Did he really just say that? Eh, seems fine now. At least someone wants to talk to me today. NEXT THING.
In the end though, it's horror. It's meant to take a scenario and turn it twisted. If you aren't uncomfortable, it isn't doing its job. I think the genre requires a certain vulnerability, meaning you need to go into it ready to open yourself up to feeling something awful. If you don't intend to do that and it catches you off guard it can feel like a violation, and in a way I think that's what makes this game so effective in its genre: it has the ability to really sneak up on the person who is too busy being okay to pick up on what later seem as though they should have been obvious cues. But the people in the story aren't reacting that way. She writes fucked up poetry and that was a fucking weird thing to say but at least she is talking to me maybe I'm not completely worthless after all. NEXT THING.
Or at least, that's how my brain runs the numbers.
RE
ITERATING
THIS
since im sure the Grumps wont think to actually try it, is it possible to delete Monika the same way, or does a special thing happen if you try?
Pretty big spoiler here:
Apparently there's hundreds of pages of dialogue that she will keep going on with until you do it.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube