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This Thread Will Go Down in [History]

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  • ASimPersonASimPerson And they will tremble again at the sound of our silence.Registered User regular
    Today I learned some stuff about Thomas Paine. Or, more specifically, his corpse.

    So after Thomas Paine died he was buried. (This is normal. It is the only normal part of this story.) Ten years later a radical British journalist named William Cobbett dug him up, and shipped him to England to erect a monument in his honour. But something happened or the Kickstarter didn't get funded or something because once the body arrived in England it just went into a box in this dude's house. And the dude wrote his own name on Thomas Paine's skull, just in case someone was like "excuse me this skull isn't yours." Fast forward to 1835 and aforementioned bodynapper dies in bankruptcy, but the estate auctioneers were like uhh we can't really auction off human remains even if you write your own name on them in sharpie sooo this is awkward... And the body or parts thereof (and hopefully the box) sort of vanish into the ether until 1853? In 1853 an "ultraradical" by the name of James Watson buys whatever is left of Thomas Paine at auction because I guess by then they were like fuck it, sure, you can own a famous dead body. Then Watson died and Paine's brain, separated from the skull, got sold at auction AGAIN to phrenologists in 1897.

    This might be the best "TIL" I've ever read.

    redoctober2.png
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  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I was just reading/listening to the Sojourner Truth Project, https://www.thesojournertruthproject.com/

    The reason for the project:
    Much of Sojourner Truth's widely cited 'Ain't I A Woman' speech was made up by a white woman abolitionist who gave Sojourner a broken southern dialect when Sojourner was from New York, grew up speaking Dutch and prided herself on how well she spoke English.

    This version of the speech contains a number of inaccuracies, including how many children Sojourner had. Frances Dana Barker Gage published her retelling of Sojourner's speech 12 years later and didn't collaborate with Sojourn when she wrote down "her words".

    What sets my teeth on edge - apart from the utter arrogant shittiness of 'reimagining' somebody's spoken testament in the first place - is how much better the original speech was. It's pithy, eloquent, and doesn't fuck around. I won't comment on the dialect, but the rewritten version abandons clarity of argument for pathos, and is weaker for it.

    JedoccB557MagellSkeithShortyCouscousMidniteFencingsaxV1mPolaritieJansonEdith Upwards
  • JedocJedoc Take a look. It's in a book. It was always in a book, you fool.Registered User regular
    edited January 2018
    That is fascinating. And terrible, in the case of the traditional transcription. The difference between the two is shocking.

    Jedoc on
    GDdCWMm.jpg
    tynicSkeithKadithBrainleechShortyFencingsaxPolaritieJanson
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Reading a dead interesting book on Poland

    Tell you what, I had no idea that during the European Reformation and Counter-Reformation period (so like, 15th-16th century), Poland was incredibly tolerant. Like, Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, they all got on. In 1554 when a a bishop visiting sentenced a Protestant to death for stealing the Host and passing it to some Jews (allegedly), an angry mob of Catholics turned up... to forcibly free the Protestant and the Jews, and briefly siege the delegate's lodgings for the insult. And they did this repeatedly! A quote from Jan Tarnowski at the time, "it is not a question of religion, it is a question of liberty."

    But it gets better! In 1580 a Calvinist called Marcin Kreza stole the Host from a Catholic priest (in a Catholic country, during the Counter-Reformation), spat on it, trampled on it, fed it to a passing dog, all in front of the King (a Catholic King, during the fucking Counter-Reformation), who told him reproachfully not to do it again.

    It's extraordinary, really. Incredible. We should be taking a leaf out of the book of the Renaissance Poles I reckon.

    Solar on
    cB557Phoenix-DMetzger Meistervalhalla130DouglasDangerSkeithL Ron HowardIronKnuckle's GhostKayne Red RobeDedwrekkasarukunPenguin IncarnateDuke 2.0kimePolaritieShortylonelyahavaVegemyteMvrckDysHefflingEdith UpwardsZonugal
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Reading a dead interesting book on Poland

    Tell you what, I had no idea that during the European Reformation and Counter-Reformation period (so like, 15th-16th century), Poland was incredibly tolerant. Like, Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, they all got on. In 1554 when a a bishop visiting sentenced a Protestant to death for stealing the Host and passing it to some Jews (allegedly), an angry mob of Catholics turned up... to forcibly free the Protestant and the Jews, and briefly siege the delegate's lodgings for the insult. And they did this repeatedly! A quote from Jan Tarnowski at the time, "it is not a question of religion, it is a question of liberty."

    But it gets better! In 1580 a Calvinist called Marcin Kreza stole the Host from a Catholic priest (in a Catholic country, during the Counter-Reformation), spat on it, trampled on it, fed it to a passing dog, all in front of the King (a Catholic King, during the fucking Counter-Reformation), who told him reproachfully not to do it again.

    It's extraordinary, really. Incredible. We should be taking a leaf out of the book of the Renaissance Poles I reckon.

    don't worry, it's now a crime to argue that the polish government was possibly complicit in war crimes associated with the holocaust

    wait...

    chrishallett83Shorty
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    This is a fascinating piece of... forensic archaeology?
    In 2010, archaeologists exploring a fifth-century fortress on a Swedish island found a pair of skeleton feet peeking out from a doorway. The team thought it odd that the ancient people had left a body unburied to rot within their village’s stone walls, which housed some 200 people.

    When they later dug up the rest of the skeleton, the team discovered signs that the person had been murdered. Beside him they found the brutalized remains of another. And in houses nearby and on the streets they uncovered more human bones that had been butchered with swords, axes and clubs.
    The attack happened suddenly, as shown by the half-eaten herring that was discovered in one house. The people kept animals like dogs and sheep, many of which starved after the raid. Some people wore expensive jewelry like rings, silver pendants and gilded brooches. The presence of Roman gold coins in the fort also suggested that the massacre happened after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 A.D., which could have created a power struggle on the island, according to the researchers.

    KwoarucB557KanatynicsarukunDedwrekkaL Ron HowardVegemyteZonugalSlacker71
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    People are bad

    I play games on ps3 and ps4. My PSN is DouglasDanger.
    FencingsaxsarukunLost SalientPeas
  • sarukunsarukun Mr. Bulldopps Get SchwiftyRegistered User regular
    People were a mistake

    Penguin IncarnateDouglasDangerFencingsaxLost SalientPeas
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited April 2018
    sarukun wrote: »
    Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no one should ever have left the oceans..

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
    sarukunDrezknitdanPolaritieMvrckLost SalientEvilCakeHefflingZonugal
  • JedocJedoc Take a look. It's in a book. It was always in a book, you fool.Registered User regular
    sarukun wrote: »
    People were a mistake

    Without people, you wouldn't have dogs.

    Checkmate.

    GDdCWMm.jpg
    sarukunKanaDuke 2.0
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular

    Fencingsax
  • sarukunsarukun Mr. Bulldopps Get SchwiftyRegistered User regular
    Jedoc wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    People were a mistake

    Without people, you wouldn't have dogs.

    Checkmate.

    Compelling argument.

    furlionSkeithPolaritieLost SalientEvilCakeZonugal
  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    It is the 155th anniversary of the Battle of Camerón today. One of the most famous battles of the French Foreign Legion that they celebrate each year. It's a pretty impressive story so I figured I'd share a brief overview. In July 1861 Mexico stopped payments on their foreign loans prompting an joint invasion by Britain, Spain and France. This was in blatant violation of the Monroe Doctrine but the United States was a bit busy at the time. After a bit of fighting the Spanish and British discovered France (then ruled by Napoleon III) intended to conquer Mexico and establish a puppet monarchy. Consequently the Brits and Spaniards withdrew leaving just the French. On May 5 1862 the Mexican Army soundly defeated the French expeditionary force, which is the origin of Cinco de Mayo, but that's a different story.The French landed a bunch more forces and eventually succeeded in putting some asshole Austrian Archduke up as the "Emperor of Mexico" in April of 1864, but the forces of the Republic of Mexico never stopped fighting.

    Backing up just a bit though, in April 1863 a French Army is besieging the city of Puebla being supplied by caravans from the port of Veracruz. A major caravan is getting ready to set out so a small detachment of French troops set out to scout the road and make sure it was safe. This detachment consisted of 3rd Company, 1st Battalion, Foreign Regiment (later named Foreign Legion), understrength due to casualties from disease and totaling 62 enlisted, 2 Lieutenants, and Captain Danjou, who had volunteered to go with as 3rd Company had no acting Captain. After a thoroughly miserable march, near the abandoned village of El Camerón, 3rd Company spotted 200+ Mexican cavalry and withdrew into a walled hacienda on the outskirts of the village for cover. The cavalry reported the presence of French troops back to their commander Colonel Milán. Milán decided he needed to eliminate the French so they couldn't report spotting his troops, who were in fact planning to ambush the supply caravan. Somewhere around 600 Mexican cavalry surrounded 3rd Company and demanded the surrender of the vastly outnumbered French force. Captain Danjou replied, "We have ammo, we will not surrender."

    The fighting began in earnest at 0900, a bit before noon Danjou was mortally wounded, Lt. Vilain assumed command of the 40 or so remaining Legionnaires. Shortly after Col. Milán arrived on the scene with the rest of his forces. There were now around 2000 Mexican troops besieging 40 Legionnaires penned into a walled stablehouse. Milán offered Vilain another chance to surrender, "Merde!" was the only reply. The fighting resumed. Eventually Lt. Vilain too was killed, Lt. Maudet taking command. By 1800 there were only 5 Frenchmen standing, and even scavenging the dead and wounded they were down to one shot each. Lt. Maudet gave his final order, the Legionnaires fixed bayonets fired a volley and charged.

    Maudet and another Legionnaire, Private Catteau, were shot down, but a Mexican officer, Col. Combas stopped his troops before they killed the other 3 and offered another chance to surrender, Corporal Maine, senior surviving Legionnaire, agreed if the Mexicans would care for their wounded. Combas replied, "One refuses nothing to men such as you." Combras brought the captured Legionnaires to Milán, who asked where the others were. When Combras told him the 3 were all that had surrendered Milán exclaimed, “That’s all that is left? These aren’t men, they are devils!”

    In the end, 24 Legionnaires, all wounded, survived the battle and received medical care from the Mexican Army doctors. They were allowed to keep their arms and were freed in a prisoner exchange later that same year. None of the officers survived though, and Captain Danjou's prosthetic wooden hand (recovered by the Legion later), is one of the French Foreign Legions most treasured artifacts.

    L Ron HowardFleebPenguin IncarnateFencingsaxRMS OceanicIronKnuckle's GhostElvenshae
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Huh
    fvwv1cz8fre1.png
    That's his hand

    XaquinDisruptedCapitalistL Ron HowardFencingsaxIronKnuckle's GhostKayne Red RobeElvenshae
  • JedocJedoc Take a look. It's in a book. It was always in a book, you fool.Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    That's a pretty good hand. Fine workmanship. Weird that the middle finger is missing, given the owner.

    Jedoc on
    GDdCWMm.jpg
    TheStigRainfallElvenshae
  • Penguin IncarnatePenguin Incarnate King of Kafiristan Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Mentioning "they were allowed to keep their arms" made me think of Fernao Lopes, who was only allowed to keep one.

    Fernao Lopes was a mercenary who was working out of Portuguese-occupied Goa. During a rebellion against the Portuguese, him and a number of other mercenaries (many of whom had converted to Islam or were married to local women) took up arms against the colonists. As these things go, the rebellion was quashed and the mercenaries were surrendered to the Portuguese on the condition that they not be executed for treason.

    This agreement was not respected. Most of the men were tortured to death. Somehow Lopes survived, despite the fact that, uh, I'll leave out most of the details, but uh most of his face wasn't left when they were done with him.

    Eventually he stowed away on a ship and baled out in Saint Helena (yes, that Saint Helena) where he lived a Robinson Crusoe-esque life. His best friend was a chicken.

    In time people spotted him and tried to establish communication with him and he was brought back to Europe where the Pope absolved his sins (because that's a thing). He then asked to be allowed to go back to the shack he kept on the island (no word of whether the chicken was still there or not).

    Penguin Incarnate on
    L Ron Howard
  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    Jedoc wrote: »
    That's a pretty good hand. Fine workmanship. Weird that the middle finger is missing, given the owner.

    Probably just lost in the intervening years, but I prefer to think it got shot off.

    Fencingsax
  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    He broke it off and fired it out of a musket like FUCK YOU ALL THE WAY BUDDY

    FencingsaxSkeithKayne Red RobesarukunEncElvenshae
  • ChicoBlueChicoBlue Registered User regular
    I've been listening to an audiobook on the Crusades and my knowledge of about the topic is so minimal that after Saladin and Richard the Lionheart died I figured that the book was about done.

    Oh no, fool. There's about seven more hours and six more Crusades to get through.

    JedoccB557DisruptedCapitalistFencingsaxSkeithtynicsarukunSolarCouscousDuke 2.0chrishallett83VegemytekimeMvrckZonugalElvenshae
  • PlatyPlaty anything but regular Registered User regular
    Did your audiobook mention all the cannibalism

  • PlatyPlaty anything but regular Registered User regular
    Some authors deny there was cannibalism during the First Crusade but the accounts of starvation among the crusaders are generally accepted as genuine

  • ChicoBlueChicoBlue Registered User regular
    Yes. So much cannibalism.

    There is a passage that describes the eating of undercooked Saracen buttocks.

  • JedocJedoc Take a look. It's in a book. It was always in a book, you fool.Registered User regular
    Amateurs. I got a recipe for sous vide Saracen ham that'll knock your greaves off.

    GDdCWMm.jpg
    DisruptedCapitalistSolarchrishallett83KanaVegemytekimeElvenshaeSlacker71
  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    ChicoBlue wrote: »
    Yes. So much cannibalism.

    There is a passage that describes the eating of undercooked Saracen buttocks.

    Undercooked?! You one of those well done meat loving heathens?

    TheStig on
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  • MuzzmuzzMuzzmuzz Registered User regular
    The Crusades remind me of a movie that does decently well at the box office (because it’s mid January and there’s no good movies at all)

    Then the production company takes this as a sign to churn out more and more sequels, each getting progressively worse.

    Then after a break, the production company tries to reboot it, using the newest hip actors, except no one ever wanted a reboot.

  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    ChicoBlue wrote: »
    I've been listening to an audiobook on the Crusades and my knowledge of about the topic is so minimal that after Saladin and Richard the Lionheart died I figured that the book was about done.

    Oh no, fool. There's about seven more hours and six more Crusades to get through.

    gotta

    get

    that

    holy land

    Fencingsaxchrishallett83MidniteVegemyteSlacker71
  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    Also one with some kids. Maybe. Possibly not? I heard that actual substantial eyewitness accounts of the so-called "children's crusade" are spotty at best

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    ChicoBlue wrote: »
    I've been listening to an audiobook on the Crusades and my knowledge of about the topic is so minimal that after Saladin and Richard the Lionheart died I figured that the book was about done.

    Oh no, fool. There's about seven more hours and six more Crusades to get through.

    gotta

    get

    that

    holy land

    We've always been at war with Egypt Constantinople

    ASimPersonBrainleechchrishallett83MidniteVegemyteGundi
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    ChicoBlue wrote: »
    I've been listening to an audiobook on the Crusades and my knowledge of about the topic is so minimal that after Saladin and Richard the Lionheart died I figured that the book was about done.

    Oh no, fool. There's about seven more hours and six more Crusades to get through.

    gotta

    get

    that

    holy land

    We've always been at war with Egypt Constantinople

    Why in the first one is still a good question

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Orthodox Christians in the Balkans all the way up to Russia still want Constantinople back. They're basically of the opinion that one day, they'll get it off Turkey, by hook or crook

  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Stuff like the Cameron battle seems so dumb to me? Let's celebrate how two thirds of us died and the rest got wounded for now actual effect. But we were so manly.

  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    ChicoBlue wrote: »
    I've been listening to an audiobook on the Crusades and my knowledge of about the topic is so minimal that after Saladin and Richard the Lionheart died I figured that the book was about done.

    Oh no, fool. There's about seven more hours and six more Crusades to get through.

    gotta

    get

    that

    holy land

    We've always been at war with Egypt Constantinople

    And then there were the Crusades against the Cathars and the Baltic pagans.

    It's surprising how few Crusades actually targeted the Holy Land.

    GvzbgulBrainleechVegemyte
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Crusades were just a papal plot to get all of those assholes with swords that were constantly wandering around Europe to go someplace else. It didn't matter where they went, just as long as they were gone.

  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Crusades were just a papal plot to get all of those assholes with swords that were constantly wandering around Europe to go someplace else. It didn't matter where they went, just as long as they were gone.

    Also sick loot. Gotta grind for those papal drops, that's why they ran the same area so many times.

    kime
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    Also the Baltic Crusades against the last Pagans in Europe. They lasted a long time.

    And then they tried to Crusade against the Ottomans in Europe. It....did not go well.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    ChicoBlue wrote: »
    I've been listening to an audiobook on the Crusades and my knowledge of about the topic is so minimal that after Saladin and Richard the Lionheart died I figured that the book was about done.

    Oh no, fool. There's about seven more hours and six more Crusades to get through.

    gotta

    get

    that

    holy land

    We've always been at war with Egypt Constantinople

    And then there were the Crusades against the Cathars and the Baltic pagans.

    It's surprising how few Crusades actually targeted the Holy Land.

    Reading descriptions of the early Crusader armies, it always strikes me how similar they read to the types of mass migrations of people that bothered the Romans so much in the late Imperial era.

    Like, with Roman history we identify with the Romans, and so we think of the people moving in as invading barbarian hordes.

    Then we identify with the European Crusaders, and so we think of them as like a Proper Army and shit, with clear military objectives.

    But a lot of the descriptions of what they actually did and how they operated sounds far more similar to those previous barbarian hordes than any sort of organized military operation.

    Kana on
    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
    Gundi
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    I mean the Crusaders did have clear objectives and a united front and WAIT A MINUTE WHAT HAPPENED TO CONSTANTINOPLE?!?!?!?
    The Fourth Crusade will never ceases to amaze me. It's stranger than fiction.

    ShortyDisruptedCapitalistBrainleechErlecCrimson KingRMS OceanicVegemyteDuke 2.0Kayne Red RobeSkeithMvrckElvenshae
  • Penguin IncarnatePenguin Incarnate King of Kafiristan Registered User regular
    Some authors deny there was cannibalism during the First Crusade but the accounts of starvation among the crusaders are generally accepted as genuine
    Where the fuck is that horror movie?

    RMS OceanicZonugal
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Some authors deny there was cannibalism during the First Crusade but the accounts of starvation among the crusaders are generally accepted as genuine
    Where the fuck is that horror movie?

    Probably Eastern Europe

    RMS Oceanic
  • Penguin IncarnatePenguin Incarnate King of Kafiristan Registered User regular
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