Uhhh, this is very bizarre, but apparently the White House and GOP leadership are not happy with Mike Pence. And why? Because he's... get ready for it... been doing his job. Apparently they don't want him making any appearances or headlines, they don't want him helping with the 2018 campaigning. It's gone as far as White House officials saying that Pence is supposed to stay in the corner and not be seen nor heard.
Not sure I buy this story or that it's a pervasive feeling. The administration throws too many important bones to Evangelicals periodically for me to believe they don't value Mike Pence's input.
If I were cynical, it's because they feel Pence would erode Trump's base. Or Trump feels he is angling for the Presidency.
Uhhh, this is very bizarre, but apparently the White House and GOP leadership are not happy with Mike Pence. And why? Because he's... get ready for it... been doing his job. Apparently they don't want him making any appearances or headlines, they don't want him helping with the 2018 campaigning. It's gone as far as White House officials saying that Pence is supposed to stay in the corner and not be seen nor heard.
Not sure I buy this story or that it's a pervasive feeling. The administration throws too many important bones to Evangelicals periodically for me to believe they don't value Mike Pence's input.
If I were cynical, it's because they feel Pence would erode Trump's base. Or Trump feels he is angling for the Presidency.
If Pence were smarter, I would say Pence's people leaked it to make him more palatable.
Doug Jones will oppose, on straight moral torture is wrong grounds. Good for him.
It's a shame that there's any Democrats willing to put their name in support of Haskel.
I would have thought that opposition to torture would be a defining plank of the Democratic party. I guess not.
And to be clear, I'm not in favor of opposing everything Trump does. Just the vile, horrible, disgusting shit (ie, 95% of his current agenda). Such as nominating this person, with these obvious character flaws, to a position where she'll be in a position to oversee this kind of thing in the future.
I'm kinda glad I don't get a voice in American elections. Because besides the obvious, I'd have trouble voting for some people who belong to the party I'd want representing me.
Doug Jones will oppose, on straight moral torture is wrong grounds. Good for him.
It's a shame that there's any Democrats willing to put their name in support of Haskel.
I would have thought that opposition to torture would be a defining plank of the Democratic party. I guess not.
And to be clear, I'm not in favor of opposing everything Trump does. Just the vile, horrible, disgusting shit (ie, 95% of his current agenda). Such as nominating this person, with these obvious character flaws, to a position where she'll be in a position to oversee this kind of thing in the future.
I'm kinda glad I don't get a voice in American elections. Because besides the obvious, I'd have trouble voting for some people who belong to the party I'd want representing me.
I suspect it's entirely a combination of (stupid) political calculation and a belief that she's the best you are gonna get from Trump.
I'm gonna lay a lot of the blame on Chuck Schumer, too. In a year where all the momentum is on your side, how the fuck do you allow ANY Democrat to defect on something like this?
I'm gonna lay a lot of the blame on Chuck Schumer, too. In a year where all the momentum is on your side, how the fuck do you allow ANY Democrat to defect on something like this?
If I wanted to think as cynically as possible, Americans do not care about torture that much across the political spectrum so there isn't a large incentive to really try to fight people like Joe Manchin who normally would be expected to not mind torture and he doesn't have enough leverage over most members to change the political calculus for people like Joe Manchin if those individual members are being purely cynical even if he cared much. Same thing with foreign policy in general except when Americans get killed.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Maybe they just think that the next appointment would be worse and the Rs would fall in line
I've seen nothing to indicate the game theory you've been proposing was their idea.
Yes because if you talk about the game theory it backfires. Because people don’t care. Except they think you’re too smart for your own good and will potentially abandon you when things aren’t favorable.
As a reference: see all of this thread and every intraparty conflict we have had in the past 20 years.
Just like how the GOPer isn’t going to swap to the Dems as a result of this vote you’re not going to vote for a Republican against one of those senators. Even if you were in those districts.
"Well I was going to vote GOP, but that Democrat voted for that CIA director I know who I'll vote for!" Said no one fucking ever.
"That Democrat in a tough race voted to appoint the CIA director. I guess we don't need to devote resources to defeating him." Said noone at the RNC ever.
It's been said before, but the "political calculus" of doing so is just stupid. No Republican is going to vote for a Democrat because of this kind of vote. No independent is going to vote for a Democrat because of it. No apathetic is going to get off the couch and vote because of it. But enough of these kinds of votes, and you MIGHT get Democrats staying home.
And the RNC are absolutely NOT going to hold back on their electioneering for this kind of vote. They might not try and tie them to it with a "Joe Manchin voted to allow a known torturer to the post of CIA Director. How can you trust him?". But you can bet your ass that they're going to contest the seat just as hard.
So, unless he voted strictly for conviction reasons (ie, he believes Haspel is a suitable candidate), and he's willing to risk his seat for his convictions, it just seems like a completely stupid thing to do.
Maybe they just think that the next appointment would be worse and the Rs would fall in line
I've seen nothing to indicate the game theory you've been proposing was their idea.
Yes because if you talk about the game theory it backfires. Because people don’t care. Except they think you’re too smart for your own good and will potentially abandon you when things aren’t favorable.
As a reference: see all of this thread and every intraparty conflict we have had in the past 20 years.
Just like how the GOPer isn’t going to swap to the Dems as a result of this vote you’re not going to vote for a Republican against one of those senators. Even if you were in those districts.
I wouldn't vote for a Republican, but I wouldn't vote for one of them either if I lived in a different State. Including in the General.
There is no acceptable level of support for torture. I truly and honestly believe that to my marrow.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Schumer can’t lay down the law on his Dems, as we saw with the shutdown fight.
On the plus side almost all Dems were on the right side of this.
That isn't much of a consolation prize when a torture-crazy person gets put in charge of the CIA.
Edit - It would've been one thing if there was a total block vote effort made, but that person got through because of members of the party... I dunno, going "fuck it" or trying to look special or unique or maybe they genuinely believe torture is okay.
There’s only votes to be lost by voting to confirm, and there are *incredibly* smart people that voted “no” to tell me the “we could get someone worse” excuse us a load of hot diarrhea.
It's also not like the three Republicans were opposing from the right either. Not that I trust Paul/Flake/McCain further than I can throw them if they're the actual difference between the GOP winning or losing, but still. Let's stand up for human rights and international law.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
It's also not like the three Republicans were opposing from the right either. Not that I trust Paul/Flake/McCain further than I can throw them if they're the actual difference between the GOP winning or losing, but still. Let's stand up for human rights and international law.
It's even more fundamental than that. It is civilization versus barbarism. Torture is torture.
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If I were cynical, it's because they feel Pence would erode Trump's base. Or Trump feels he is angling for the Presidency.
If Pence were smarter, I would say Pence's people leaked it to make him more palatable.
Instead, he just hired Corey Lewandowski.
As in straight up fire? Him and Mueller, weirdly.
I would have thought that opposition to torture would be a defining plank of the Democratic party. I guess not.
And to be clear, I'm not in favor of opposing everything Trump does. Just the vile, horrible, disgusting shit (ie, 95% of his current agenda). Such as nominating this person, with these obvious character flaws, to a position where she'll be in a position to oversee this kind of thing in the future.
I'm kinda glad I don't get a voice in American elections. Because besides the obvious, I'd have trouble voting for some people who belong to the party I'd want representing me.
I suspect it's entirely a combination of (stupid) political calculation and a belief that she's the best you are gonna get from Trump.
R votes against: Paul, McCain, Flake.
D votes in favor: Warner, Manchin, Heitkamp, Nelson, Donnelly, Shaheen.
EDIT: McCain abstained.
Missed Shaheen on my first post.
Fine, six. And Shaheen isn't up til 2020.
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Democrats: we love to shoot ourselves in our own dick like nobody else
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We are the baddies.
I'm not sure it's a resume boost. It's just not disqualifying.
Which shouldn't be surprising.
As a person who really supported Warner back in the day when I lived in VA, fuck you Mark Warner. Ugh.
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i mean even doug jones voted no, what excuse do these people have
If I wanted to think as cynically as possible, Americans do not care about torture that much across the political spectrum so there isn't a large incentive to really try to fight people like Joe Manchin who normally would be expected to not mind torture and he doesn't have enough leverage over most members to change the political calculus for people like Joe Manchin if those individual members are being purely cynical even if he cared much. Same thing with foreign policy in general except when Americans get killed.
Maybe they just approve of torture.
Doug Jones is going to drive us god damn nuts on the economy, but on issues of justice he's rock solid.
I've seen nothing to indicate the game theory you've been proposing was their idea.
And I'm not going to buy anyone saying it after the fact as post-facto justification. The time to justify your vote was as you were voting.
Yes because if you talk about the game theory it backfires. Because people don’t care. Except they think you’re too smart for your own good and will potentially abandon you when things aren’t favorable.
As a reference: see all of this thread and every intraparty conflict we have had in the past 20 years.
Just like how the GOPer isn’t going to swap to the Dems as a result of this vote you’re not going to vote for a Republican against one of those senators. Even if you were in those districts.
We're to believe they're endorsing a war criminal but can't say it's to avoid someone worse because that would be bad politics?
On the plus side almost all Dems were on the right side of this.
It's been said before, but the "political calculus" of doing so is just stupid. No Republican is going to vote for a Democrat because of this kind of vote. No independent is going to vote for a Democrat because of it. No apathetic is going to get off the couch and vote because of it. But enough of these kinds of votes, and you MIGHT get Democrats staying home.
And the RNC are absolutely NOT going to hold back on their electioneering for this kind of vote. They might not try and tie them to it with a "Joe Manchin voted to allow a known torturer to the post of CIA Director. How can you trust him?". But you can bet your ass that they're going to contest the seat just as hard.
So, unless he voted strictly for conviction reasons (ie, he believes Haspel is a suitable candidate), and he's willing to risk his seat for his convictions, it just seems like a completely stupid thing to do.
I wouldn't vote for a Republican, but I wouldn't vote for one of them either if I lived in a different State. Including in the General.
There is no acceptable level of support for torture. I truly and honestly believe that to my marrow.
Edit - It would've been one thing if there was a total block vote effort made, but that person got through because of members of the party... I dunno, going "fuck it" or trying to look special or unique or maybe they genuinely believe torture is okay.
It's even more fundamental than that. It is civilization versus barbarism. Torture is torture.