Synopsis: A women's two children, aged 13 and 15, unvaccinated on "religious grounds"*, were refused the religious exemption, and therefore refused access while unvaccinated. She's suing. Claims and counterclaims.
* Found elsewhere, the first three pages of Google references to this church, "Temple of the Inner Flame Church" only shows articles referencing back to this lawsuit, and other topics not related to this issue or the church.
Synopsis: A women's two children, aged 13 and 15, unvaccinated on "religious grounds"*, were refused the religious exemption, and therefore refused access while unvaccinated. She's suing. Claims and counterclaims.
* Found elsewhere, the first three pages of Google references to this church, "Temple of the Inner Flame Church" only shows articles referencing back to this lawsuit, and other topics not related to this issue or the church.
Isn't that a D&D campaign?
If Cure Light Wounds was good enough for my 5th level Paladin, it's good enough for me!
All Hail Pelor.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Synopsis: A women's two children, aged 13 and 15, unvaccinated on "religious grounds"*, were refused the religious exemption, and therefore refused access while unvaccinated. She's suing. Claims and counterclaims.
* Found elsewhere, the first three pages of Google references to this church, "Temple of the Inner Flame Church" only shows articles referencing back to this lawsuit, and other topics not related to this issue or the church.
I can find a reference in a PDF from a California government website telling me which box to look in for more information, but thats about it.
This is why religious exemptions need to go, and go swiftly.
If this succeeds, what's to stop the next bunch of crackpots from forming some bare-bones church and claiming something like "my religion allows me to marry underage girls", or "hey, my religion allows me to take all kinds of illegal drugs in rituals, you can't arrest me!" It's a slippery slope.
The only allowable exemptions ought to be for medical reasons. I'm tired of seeing these people put everyone at risk just because they don't want to admit they're wrong, and thinking that some internet rando knows more about vaccines than scientists and doctors do is going to get lots of us in possible deep crap.
It's not right that the rest of us end up at risk just because they think they know better.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
+20
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
This is why religious exemptions need to go, and go swiftly.
If this succeeds, what's to stop the next bunch of crackpots from forming some bare-bones church and claiming something like "my religion allows me to marry underage girls", or "hey, my religion allows me to take all kinds of illegal drugs in rituals, you can't arrest me!" It's a slippery slope.
The only allowable exemptions ought to be for medical reasons. I'm tired of seeing these people put everyone at risk just because they don't want to admit they're wrong, and thinking that some internet rando knows more about vaccines than scientists and doctors do is going to get lots of us in possible deep crap.
It's not right that the rest of us end up at risk just because they think they know better.
That slippery slope argument doesn't really apply here, as neither of your hypothetical's currently allow for religious exemption to the law. The only reason this works is that states have laws that already allow for religious exemption.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Earlier this week, I encountered an intriguing anti-vaxxer argument.
Paraphrased: "Quebec has 99% measles vaccination coverage, but they had measles outbreaks in 1989 and 2011! Checkmate, so-called 'herd immunity!'"
Sounded like a factual claim that could be easily verified, so I looked it up. And I learned things! (I like learning things.)
Quebec does indeed have high measles vaccination coverage. (Some articles say "over 95%" rather than "99%" but that doesn't really matter for this argument because both numbers are enough to produce herd immunity.)
There were indeed measles outbreaks in 1989 and 2011. Some of the people who got measles had been vaccinated.
But here's what the argument didn't take into account:
Today, it's commonplace to do two doses of the measles vaccine. The first sometime near the child's first birthday (more on that later) and the second just before they enter school. This wasn't standard practice in 1989. If an adult has only had one childhood measles vaccine dose, then they need to get a booster shot for best possible immunity. If an adult has had two childhood doses, then boosters are generally unnecessary.
Data collected from the 1989 outbreak was one of the driving factors for Canada & the US to adopt a two-dose schedule.
Today, it's standard practice to do the first measles vaccine dose near the child's first birthday. CDC recommends between 12 months and 15 months. I've seen a few other agencies that allow for ranges as wide as 9 months to 18 months. But, in general, measles vaccines administered before 9 months don't "stick." Measles vaccines administered after 18 months are less effective (until the second dose is administered).
For example, families who are traveling with newborns might get their newborn vaccinated before visiting countries with high measles incidence. That's fine and dandy. But if they do so, CDC/WHO/etc recommend they also get the standard two-dose measles schedule when the time comes.
This wasn't widespread knowledge in 1989, either.
So what about 2011?
Well, that's only 12 years after the 1989 outbreak. There were a lot of adolescents who were in their teens yet had only received one dose of the measles vaccine, or had received it at the wrong age. Those teenagers were more likely to get measles than those who had received two doses.
The incidence of measles in people who had received two doses of the vaccine on time was, predictably, lower than the one-dose, zero-dose, or wrong-schedule groups. But still not zero. People who had received the vaccine exactly the way they were supposed to still got measles...
...but their symptoms were significantly lesser. In fact, the first stats on the percentage of two-dosers who got measles were underestimated. Why? Because those folks didn't seek medical attention. For the most part, they got mild fevers easily treated with OTC medicine.
Still, some people on the 2-dose schedule got (generally mild) measles anyway. Why? A couple of explanations, neither of which seem to be consensus yet:
- Some people (3-5% of the population) have a genetic resistance to the measles vaccine.
- The first-dose age window is still too loose, it needs to be narrowed down closer to 15 months of age.
I could cite all these, but I'm lazy. Google Scholar or Semantic Scholar search for "1989 quebec measles outbreak" and "2011 quebec measles outbreak."
Obviously none of this means that herd immunity is a myth. Unvaccinated individuals, and undervaccinated communities, had both the highest incidence of measles and the most severe symptoms. The measles vaccine clearly saved lives. All it means is that herd immunity isn't a light switch that turns on when we hit some magic number.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Facebook is under pressure to stem the rise of anti-vaccination groups spreading false information about the dangers of life-saving vaccines while peddling unfounded alternative treatments such as high doses of vitamin C.
So-called “anti-vaxxers” are operating on Facebook in closed groups, where members have to be approved in advance. By barring access to others, they are able to serve undiluted misinformation without challenge.
The groups are large and sophisticated. Stop Mandatory Vaccination has more than 150,000 approved members. Vitamin C Against Vaccine Damage claims that large doses of the vitamin can “heal” people from vaccine damage, even though vaccines are safe.
The arguments flown at work point to the number of people dying from measles vaccine being greater than measles deaths over same period ergo catching measles is less risky than the vaccine.
They don't question vaccines in general, either, just this specific one.
The arguments flown at work point to the number of people dying from measles vaccine being greater than measles deaths over same period ergo catching measles is less risky than the vaccine.
They don't question vaccines in general, either, just this specific one.
That is such a stupid argument. Yes of course complications from a successful vaccine will have more issues than the thing you are protecting against.
But like last year alone 70 people died in the Philippines from fucking measels and I really really doubt 70 people died from the measels vaccine last year.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The correct argument is deaths from measels with no vaccine vs. deaths from the vaccine plus deaths from measels with the vaccine.
Total combined deaths from both, even with the constant outbreaks, are still less than measels killed before the vaccine became available.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Re: religious exemptions
There's a reason that the IRS is only government entity in the U.S. that even tries to qualify what constitutes a religious organization. Because it's basically impossible to regulate short of telepathy.
Re: religious exemptions
There's a reason that the IRS is only government entity in the U.S. that even tries to qualify what constitutes a religious organization. Because it's basically impossible to regulate short of telepathy.
Things would be so much simpler if there was a provision in the constitution that prevented the government from recognizing religions or favoring them through policy specifically because they're religious.
jothki on
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
edited February 2019
Feral In your example, is is 1989 and 2011, 22 years apart? Or 1989 and 2001, 12 years apart?
One of the afflicted is a child who was in between their vaccination shots. So, someone doing the right thing and the antivaxxers still got their kid sick.
Five of the six new patients were unvaccinated, according to Clark County Public Health, and one had received just the first of two recommended doses.
Of the 59 Clark County cases, all but two had no doses of the vaccine. One dose of the vaccine gives a person 93 percent immunity, and a second dose raises that to 97 percent.
Fears over maybe causing autism (I’m aware it doesn’t, the emphasis is on the feared possibility) leading to *actual*, tangible spread of disease.
I hope we never have to go over the “religious exemption/strongly held beliefs” thing again, because when it comes to vaccines, either you’re part of the solution or part of the problem. Medical exemptions only.
I have a friend who has a compromised system due to an autoimmune disorder, and i become a touch irate at the idea that some parents delaying or ignoring their shots could lead to serious illness or death for her, as she cannot receive vaccines. The world is a grubby and microbiologically dangerous enough place without people figuratively shooting holes in attempts to build herd immunity. It is a height of privilege to say that their medically unfounded fear meets or supersedes their responsibility to society in general.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
Back '98, when I got stationed in Korea, after getting my second shot of the anthrax series, I fell supremely ill, and was put on a run of doxycycline. Now the vaccine isn't supposed to have any actual anthrax in it, one of the possible side effects is flu-like symptoms. Maybe it was the side effect or I encountered anthrax by some other vector, but they never had me finish the vaccine series, and when I transitioned back the states my medical records got purged of ever receiving the vaccine at all.
I toss this up to general army shittiness, and am planning on scheduling a full booster through my health care for anything they offer. Also I got my flu shot this season back in October and have been fine while so many coworkers couldn't "find the time" and have been sick for weeks.
Fears over maybe causing autism (I’m aware it doesn’t, the emphasis is on the feared possibility) leading to *actual*, tangible spread of disease.
I hope we never have to go over the “religious exemption/strongly held beliefs” thing again, because when it comes to vaccines, either you’re part of the solution or part of the problem. Medical exemptions only.
I have a friend who has a compromised system due to an autoimmune disorder, and i become a touch irate at the idea that some parents delaying or ignoring their shots could lead to serious illness or death for her, as she cannot receive vaccines. The world is a grubby and microbiologically dangerous enough place without people figuratively shooting holes in attempts to build herd immunity. It is a height of privilege to say that their medically unfounded fear meets or supersedes their responsibility to society in general.
The absolutely wild and wacky thing is there is no "religion" that bans it. The only thing I can find is really crazy sects that are like "wahhhh we're shitty people, ban everything medical!" and also some maybe tangential "well I heard from a friend of a friend that this vaccine was made with embryonic stem cells so I don't want to get it" (lol what?)
There is of course the whole "made from porcine cells" which could potentially be an issue.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Fears over maybe causing autism (I’m aware it doesn’t, the emphasis is on the feared possibility) leading to *actual*, tangible spread of disease.
I hope we never have to go over the “religious exemption/strongly held beliefs” thing again, because when it comes to vaccines, either you’re part of the solution or part of the problem. Medical exemptions only.
I have a friend who has a compromised system due to an autoimmune disorder, and i become a touch irate at the idea that some parents delaying or ignoring their shots could lead to serious illness or death for her, as she cannot receive vaccines. The world is a grubby and microbiologically dangerous enough place without people figuratively shooting holes in attempts to build herd immunity. It is a height of privilege to say that their medically unfounded fear meets or supersedes their responsibility to society in general.
The absolutely wild and wacky thing is there is no "religion" that bans it. The only thing I can find is really crazy sects that are like "wahhhh we're shitty people, ban everything medical!" and also some maybe tangential "well I heard from a friend of a friend that this vaccine was made with embryonic stem cells so I don't want to get it" (lol what?)
There is of course the whole "made from porcine cells" which could potentially be an issue.
More importantly, there's probably less than a million people worldwide with "legitimate" religious objections to vaccines. They are not statistically relevant to attempts to maintain herd immunity.
Wahhabi Islam (probably butchered that spelling) only allows medical procedures and drugs created by Muslims. Many things have been reinvented in Pakistan to skirt the rule, and I know at least some vaccines have been, but the allowed versions aren't available globally.
I'm not aware of any wahhabist strongholds outside of Pakistan and it's immediate neighbors, but it's a popular one to claim if you're trying to claim religious exemption. Tons of Protestants in the US have grown up seeing Christian Science families "persecuted" while also being told over and over by preachers and politicians that Muslims and Sharia law have some kind of special protected status that Christians don't.
In washington state the schools that have the worst anti vaxx rates are christian charter schools. Because again are exemption rules suck and people use their religion to get people sick.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Speaking of measles, I’ve always loved this edutainment video on how the disease affects the body, how the body reacts, long term effects, and why measles can be so deadly without the vaccine to boost your immune response if there is no medical treatment for all the other shit that infects you.
The paper reported the state House Health and Human Services Committee approved three bills with 5-4 votes and support from Republican lawmakers. Representative Nancy Barto, who sponsored the bills, claimed that the bills aim to “strike that balance” between arguments on “both sides” and that vaccinations are “not a one size fits all option for every child.” The aims of the bills include expanded exemptions for religious reasons as well as axing a requirement that parents or guardians sign a document in order to opt out of vaccinations.
I'm still trying to process this a bit and read some additional articles. It's really crazy to me that in the wake of measles outbreaks in very clearly under vaccinated communities the answer is to lean in to exemptions and both sides this thing. It's not a political issue, it's kids getting diseases they shouldn't.
It seems like some mixture of trying to prove just how anti-science and pro-religion a person can be. The Purity Olympics.
Edit: Even in the Washington proposal there's only one Republican supporting the bill.
On the plus side, YouTube is apparently pulling ads from anti-vaxxers due to annoyance from the advertisers. Hopefully that will reduce the incentive to create those videos.
But I don't mind, as long as there's a bed beneath the stars that shine,
I'll be fine, just give me a minute, a man's got a limit, I can't get a life if my heart's not in it.
Freedom of Expression is valued more than the lives of other people. Because of course my child will never catch disease X that they aren't immunized for. My child is special!
There are starting to be enough measles cases in my area that I'm becoming concerned for my (vaccinated) child because the vaccine isn't perfect and relies on herd immunity.
There are starting to be enough measles cases in my area that I'm becoming concerned for my (vaccinated) child because the vaccine isn't perfect and relies on herd immunity.
I'm concerned for my own well being because there was 1-2 vaccines I couldn't get because it gave me dangerous arrhythmia or something... but I guess it's a complication with some thyroid stuff I am not too up to date on the cause of it but my doctor was like "ehhhhh don't worry about it most everyone's vaccinated so it won't be a problem"
Guess it's a fucking problem.
I wonder if since I'm older I can just get them all again and it won't be as big of a deal, I should find out.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I don't think I was ever vaccinated for measles because it wasn't a thing when I was young.
Unless youre very old that is unlikely.
@Bowen. I got my MMR when i was 28 (also for health reasons) so you can definitely get it later in life. Talk to your doctor about it
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
You can definitely get an MMR shot as an adult. Although it might still cause the same arythmia issues for Bowen, but 100% ask your doctor if you are worried about it. We made my whole family get another round of MMR before Sapling was born.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Posts
Isn't that a D&D campaign?
If Cure Light Wounds was good enough for my 5th level Paladin, it's good enough for me!
All Hail Pelor.
I can find a reference in a PDF from a California government website telling me which box to look in for more information, but thats about it.
Box 98? https://oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/tf3779n92n/dsc/?query=c..;dsc.position=5001;
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
If this succeeds, what's to stop the next bunch of crackpots from forming some bare-bones church and claiming something like "my religion allows me to marry underage girls", or "hey, my religion allows me to take all kinds of illegal drugs in rituals, you can't arrest me!" It's a slippery slope.
The only allowable exemptions ought to be for medical reasons. I'm tired of seeing these people put everyone at risk just because they don't want to admit they're wrong, and thinking that some internet rando knows more about vaccines than scientists and doctors do is going to get lots of us in possible deep crap.
It's not right that the rest of us end up at risk just because they think they know better.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
That slippery slope argument doesn't really apply here, as neither of your hypothetical's currently allow for religious exemption to the law. The only reason this works is that states have laws that already allow for religious exemption.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Paraphrased: "Quebec has 99% measles vaccination coverage, but they had measles outbreaks in 1989 and 2011! Checkmate, so-called 'herd immunity!'"
Sounded like a factual claim that could be easily verified, so I looked it up. And I learned things! (I like learning things.)
Quebec does indeed have high measles vaccination coverage. (Some articles say "over 95%" rather than "99%" but that doesn't really matter for this argument because both numbers are enough to produce herd immunity.)
There were indeed measles outbreaks in 1989 and 2011. Some of the people who got measles had been vaccinated.
But here's what the argument didn't take into account:
Today, it's commonplace to do two doses of the measles vaccine. The first sometime near the child's first birthday (more on that later) and the second just before they enter school. This wasn't standard practice in 1989. If an adult has only had one childhood measles vaccine dose, then they need to get a booster shot for best possible immunity. If an adult has had two childhood doses, then boosters are generally unnecessary.
Data collected from the 1989 outbreak was one of the driving factors for Canada & the US to adopt a two-dose schedule.
Today, it's standard practice to do the first measles vaccine dose near the child's first birthday. CDC recommends between 12 months and 15 months. I've seen a few other agencies that allow for ranges as wide as 9 months to 18 months. But, in general, measles vaccines administered before 9 months don't "stick." Measles vaccines administered after 18 months are less effective (until the second dose is administered).
For example, families who are traveling with newborns might get their newborn vaccinated before visiting countries with high measles incidence. That's fine and dandy. But if they do so, CDC/WHO/etc recommend they also get the standard two-dose measles schedule when the time comes.
This wasn't widespread knowledge in 1989, either.
So what about 2011?
Well, that's only 12 years after the 1989 outbreak. There were a lot of adolescents who were in their teens yet had only received one dose of the measles vaccine, or had received it at the wrong age. Those teenagers were more likely to get measles than those who had received two doses.
The incidence of measles in people who had received two doses of the vaccine on time was, predictably, lower than the one-dose, zero-dose, or wrong-schedule groups. But still not zero. People who had received the vaccine exactly the way they were supposed to still got measles...
...but their symptoms were significantly lesser. In fact, the first stats on the percentage of two-dosers who got measles were underestimated. Why? Because those folks didn't seek medical attention. For the most part, they got mild fevers easily treated with OTC medicine.
Still, some people on the 2-dose schedule got (generally mild) measles anyway. Why? A couple of explanations, neither of which seem to be consensus yet:
- Some people (3-5% of the population) have a genetic resistance to the measles vaccine.
- The first-dose age window is still too loose, it needs to be narrowed down closer to 15 months of age.
I could cite all these, but I'm lazy. Google Scholar or Semantic Scholar search for "1989 quebec measles outbreak" and "2011 quebec measles outbreak."
Obviously none of this means that herd immunity is a myth. Unvaccinated individuals, and undervaccinated communities, had both the highest incidence of measles and the most severe symptoms. The measles vaccine clearly saved lives. All it means is that herd immunity isn't a light switch that turns on when we hit some magic number.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
They don't question vaccines in general, either, just this specific one.
That is such a stupid argument. Yes of course complications from a successful vaccine will have more issues than the thing you are protecting against.
But like last year alone 70 people died in the Philippines from fucking measels and I really really doubt 70 people died from the measels vaccine last year.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Total combined deaths from both, even with the constant outbreaks, are still less than measels killed before the vaccine became available.
There's a reason that the IRS is only government entity in the U.S. that even tries to qualify what constitutes a religious organization. Because it's basically impossible to regulate short of telepathy.
Things would be so much simpler if there was a provision in the constitution that prevented the government from recognizing religions or favoring them through policy specifically because they're religious.
D'oh! My bad.
That's not an answer though, what are you trying to hide?
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
One of the afflicted is a child who was in between their vaccination shots. So, someone doing the right thing and the antivaxxers still got their kid sick.
https://www.oregonlive.com/health/2019/02/6-new-measles-cases-in-vancouver-area-outbreak.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/father-vancouver-measles-outbreak-1.5022891
Fears over autism..
I hope we never have to go over the “religious exemption/strongly held beliefs” thing again, because when it comes to vaccines, either you’re part of the solution or part of the problem. Medical exemptions only.
I have a friend who has a compromised system due to an autoimmune disorder, and i become a touch irate at the idea that some parents delaying or ignoring their shots could lead to serious illness or death for her, as she cannot receive vaccines. The world is a grubby and microbiologically dangerous enough place without people figuratively shooting holes in attempts to build herd immunity. It is a height of privilege to say that their medically unfounded fear meets or supersedes their responsibility to society in general.
I toss this up to general army shittiness, and am planning on scheduling a full booster through my health care for anything they offer. Also I got my flu shot this season back in October and have been fine while so many coworkers couldn't "find the time" and have been sick for weeks.
The absolutely wild and wacky thing is there is no "religion" that bans it. The only thing I can find is really crazy sects that are like "wahhhh we're shitty people, ban everything medical!" and also some maybe tangential "well I heard from a friend of a friend that this vaccine was made with embryonic stem cells so I don't want to get it" (lol what?)
There is of course the whole "made from porcine cells" which could potentially be an issue.
Christian Scientists.
I'm not aware of any wahhabist strongholds outside of Pakistan and it's immediate neighbors, but it's a popular one to claim if you're trying to claim religious exemption. Tons of Protestants in the US have grown up seeing Christian Science families "persecuted" while also being told over and over by preachers and politicians that Muslims and Sharia law have some kind of special protected status that Christians don't.
pleasepaypreacher.net
@silence1186
22 years. 1989 / 2011. Typo, thanks for catching that.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
It’s really well animated, worth checking out.
The channel has a whole series on the immune system that’s fun to watch and easy to digest.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2019/02/what-will-it-take-to-tighten-vaccination-laws-in-oregon-washington-a-measles-outbreak-might-help.html
we now will have a bill introduced in OR legislature to close the loophole, my rep is cosponsoring
WRITE YOUR STATE REPS!
I'm still trying to process this a bit and read some additional articles. It's really crazy to me that in the wake of measles outbreaks in very clearly under vaccinated communities the answer is to lean in to exemptions and both sides this thing. It's not a political issue, it's kids getting diseases they shouldn't.
It seems like some mixture of trying to prove just how anti-science and pro-religion a person can be. The Purity Olympics.
Edit: Even in the Washington proposal there's only one Republican supporting the bill.
WTF?
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47357252
I'll be fine, just give me a minute, a man's got a limit, I can't get a life if my heart's not in it.
I'm concerned for my own well being because there was 1-2 vaccines I couldn't get because it gave me dangerous arrhythmia or something... but I guess it's a complication with some thyroid stuff I am not too up to date on the cause of it but my doctor was like "ehhhhh don't worry about it most everyone's vaccinated so it won't be a problem"
Guess it's a fucking problem.
I wonder if since I'm older I can just get them all again and it won't be as big of a deal, I should find out.
@Bowen. I got my MMR when i was 28 (also for health reasons) so you can definitely get it later in life. Talk to your doctor about it
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain