He's easily a contender for the best Tight End I've seen (yes, limited sample size, I've only been following intensely for a little over a decade). The only one who I'd consider his better, is Tony Gonzalez, who had the misfortune of not having the same supporting quality of Brady and Bellicheck.
Besides Tony and Gronk, best I've ever seen was Kellen Winslow Sr. He really was a decade+ ahead of his time in the pros and may have been one of the 3 best TEs the college game has ever seen.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
Good call for him. Go out on a superb owl win while he is still capable of walking. It's hard to give up something you love but his injuries were starting to really add up and if he wants any quality of life as he gets older stopping now is important.
Good call for him. Go out on a superb owl win while he is still capable of walking. It's hard to give up something you love but his injuries were starting to really add up and if he wants any quality of life as he gets older stopping now is important.
In the last three games of his career, he had a signature "Gronk blows up the defense" run and catch against San Diego, a huge catch on third down in OT against the Chiefs, and the last catch of his career was the one that brought the Patriots to the two yard line in the Super Bowl. While the last was not a Super Bowl winning TD, it was the signature offensive play of the game (in fairness, not that there were many to choose from). Even at the end, while noticeably not what he once was, he could still Gronk a defense.
Gronk is retiring averaging 15.1 Y/R. That's higher than Tony Gonzalez (11.4), Larry Fitzgerald (12.5), Terrell Ownes (14.8) and Jerry Rice (14.8). He averaged a TD per 0.69 games, which is behind Moss (0.72) and Owens (0.70), but ahead of Rice (0.65), Fitzgerald (0.50) and Gonzalez (0.41). When it comes to catching passes, Gronk deserves consideration among the absolute best in NFL history. And he did that while also basically being one of the best offensive line guys in the league as well. And all this despite suffering enough injuries that it's a miracle he can still walk.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Still in mourning over Gronk yeah. I wouldn't be shocked if he showed up in August after skipping the BS off-season stuff but that might be wishful thinking
ed
Also IMO definitely the best TE of all time. His peak was better than any other TE as a receiver and the only ones who were close - Sharpe, Gonzalez, Gates - can't compare as a blocker.
If the team was struggling or they needed him at some point next year, and let’s just say hypothetically Tom Brady gave him a call and said ‘Rob, I need you.’ I wouldn’t be shocked if he came back to play a few games.
Which means the terrible NE fans are going to start demanding Tom make that call the moment the Pats get behind in a game.
Still in mourning over Gronk yeah. I wouldn't be shocked if he showed up in August after skipping the BS off-season stuff but that might be wishful thinking
ed
Also IMO definitely the best TE of all time. His peak was better than any other TE as a receiver and the only ones who were close - Sharpe, Gonzalez, Gates - can't compare as a blocker.
When you think of the best you have to consider longevity. I mean, Terrel Davis was amazing, but you wouldn't call him the best of all time because you only got 3 years out of him. The others played for many years while defining the position for their whole career.
Not to knock gronk. If putting together a team and you get a player at their peak, I'd probably pick gronk. He was amazing and I loved him whenever I saw him even as a dolphins fan. He was too big of a goofball to hate. But only playing 9 years has to hurt him when talking about GoAT.
It'd have to be a really limited timetable per year. The arm being held together by duct tape and bubblegum would be easy enough to compensate for when working matches, but his back would be another story.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
Still in mourning over Gronk yeah. I wouldn't be shocked if he showed up in August after skipping the BS off-season stuff but that might be wishful thinking
ed
Also IMO definitely the best TE of all time. His peak was better than any other TE as a receiver and the only ones who were close - Sharpe, Gonzalez, Gates - can't compare as a blocker.
When you think of the best you have to consider longevity. I mean, Terrel Davis was amazing, but you wouldn't call him the best of all time because you only got 3 years out of him. The others played for many years while defining the position for their whole career.
Not to knock gronk. If putting together a team and you get a player at their peak, I'd probably pick gronk. He was amazing and I loved him whenever I saw him even as a dolphins fan. He was too big of a goofball to hate. But only playing 9 years has to hurt him when talking about GoAT.
He hung around long enough to be 3rd in TD, 7th in yards (5th if you include the postseason) among TEs and none of the guys ahead of him could block basically at all.
And plenty of people still say Jim Brown was the greatest of all time and he played fewer games and seasons. Barry Sanders played 1 more season.
It'd have to be a really limited timetable per year. The arm being held together by duct tape and bubblegum would be easy enough to compensate for when working matches, but his back would be another story.
Brock Lesnar wrestles like three times in a year and he's champ. So Gronk could do like two matches and be double champ.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
When you think of the best you have to consider longevity...
Hall of fame tight ends:
Dave Casper 1974-1984
Mike Ditka 1961-1972
John Mackey 1963-1972
Ozzie Newsome 1978-1990
Charlie Sanders 1968-1977
Shannon Sharpe 1990-2003
Jackie Smith 1963-1978
Kellen Winslow 1979-1987
So, if longevity were the key, Gronk would be at the low end, but still in the mix.
Still in mourning over Gronk yeah. I wouldn't be shocked if he showed up in August after skipping the BS off-season stuff but that might be wishful thinking
ed
Also IMO definitely the best TE of all time. His peak was better than any other TE as a receiver and the only ones who were close - Sharpe, Gonzalez, Gates - can't compare as a blocker.
When you think of the best you have to consider longevity. I mean, Terrel Davis was amazing, but you wouldn't call him the best of all time because you only got 3 years out of him. The others played for many years while defining the position for their whole career.
Not to knock gronk. If putting together a team and you get a player at their peak, I'd probably pick gronk. He was amazing and I loved him whenever I saw him even as a dolphins fan. He was too big of a goofball to hate. But only playing 9 years has to hurt him when talking about GoAT.
He hung around long enough to be 3rd in TD, 7th in yards (5th if you include the postseason) among TEs and none of the guys ahead of him could block basically at all.
And plenty of people still say Jim Brown was the greatest of all time and he played fewer games and seasons. Barry Sanders played 1 more season.
I think the goat case for Gronk is pretty strong, but -outside of QB obviously- I don't know if any position has benefited as much from the rules changes as TE. More passing, a much more open middle of the field, lots of nickle package defenses for mismatches, etc
Of the top 100 TE Rec/Rec Yards/TD seasons since the merger(1970-48 seasons) 75(3)/68(4)/58(6) of them were in the last 15 years. For WR is 62/58/46. Hell the last 10 is 58/52/49 vs 48/45/31. Even if you removed Gronk's seasons, ~1/2 of the best TE seasons ever occurred during his relatively short career. It's very possible that in 6 years when they are voting he might have fallen out of the top 10 in yards, will have fallen down in TDs.
Do you want to guess who has the best points against in the league over the last five years? And note of course that points against includes points against scored against the offence and special teams, so it’s not a perfect measure of defensive performance.
Would you guess the Seahawks, who have had one of the best defensive groups in the league, and who have rebuilt on the go into a group that keeps the Seahawks at the top of the league? Would you guess the Broncos, who had a historically great defense in 2015 and who have had some of the best defensive players in the league, from Von Miller to Harris Jr to Talib (for most of that span)? Would you guess the Ravens, who have had great defensive players and a reputation for great defenses?
A couple of surprises there, eh? #5 and #3 were teams that I didn’t expect. Recency bias is a fact for my surprise at #5; I had forgotten just how great they were in 2014 and 2015. And #3 is one of those teams that I think of as above average, but never really think of as great. But a lot of very good seasons pile up, and 2017 was a great year for them.
And that leaves the obvious champion for points allowed, 2014 to 2018:
New England Patriots: 1499 points allowed
Now, as I mentioned, you have to consider that this includes special teams and offensive points allowed. The Patriots tend to be pretty good at not allowing points in those phases of the game. But still. I’m a Patriots fan and I didn’t expect that.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Do you want to guess who has the best points against in the league over the last five years? And note of course that points against includes points against scored against the offence and special teams, so it’s not a perfect measure of defensive performance.
Would you guess the Seahawks, who have had one of the best defensive groups in the league, and who have rebuilt on the go into a group that keeps the Seahawks at the top of the league? Would you guess the Broncos, who had a historically great defense in 2015 and who have had some of the best defensive players in the league, from Von Miller to Harris Jr to Talib (for most of that span)? Would you guess the Ravens, who have had great defensive players and a reputation for great defenses?
A couple of surprises there, eh? #5 and #3 were teams that I didn’t expect. Recency bias is a fact for my surprise at #5; I had forgotten just how great they were in 2014 and 2015. And #3 is one of those teams that I think of as above average, but never really think of as great. But a lot of very good seasons pile up, and 2017 was a great year for them.
And that leaves the obvious champion for points allowed, 2014 to 2018:
New England Patriots: 1499 points allowed
Now, as I mentioned, you have to consider that this includes special teams and offensive points allowed. The Patriots tend to be pretty good at not allowing points in those phases of the game. But still. I’m a Patriots fan and I didn’t expect that.
If you didn't expect the Vikings you haven't been paying attention to them. They've been doing pretty well for years now, though not well enough, but pretty much the only reason for that is defense because the offense has been... lets go with unreliable.
I expected the Vikings to be top 10. I didn't expect them to be where they are. I mean, gut-check: without looking it up, how many people would say "yeah, the Vikings have allowed fewer points over the last five years than the Broncos or Ravens." But the gap between the Vikings and the Broncos is 133 points; for some context, the Broncos themselves are ahead of the #10 Bengals by a mere 64 points.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Do you want to guess who has the best points against in the league over the last five years? And note of course that points against includes points against scored against the offence and special teams, so it’s not a perfect measure of defensive performance.
Would you guess the Seahawks, who have had one of the best defensive groups in the league, and who have rebuilt on the go into a group that keeps the Seahawks at the top of the league? Would you guess the Broncos, who had a historically great defense in 2015 and who have had some of the best defensive players in the league, from Von Miller to Harris Jr to Talib (for most of that span)? Would you guess the Ravens, who have had great defensive players and a reputation for great defenses?
A couple of surprises there, eh? #5 and #3 were teams that I didn’t expect. Recency bias is a fact for my surprise at #5; I had forgotten just how great they were in 2014 and 2015. And #3 is one of those teams that I think of as above average, but never really think of as great. But a lot of very good seasons pile up, and 2017 was a great year for them.
And that leaves the obvious champion for points allowed, 2014 to 2018:
New England Patriots: 1499 points allowed
Now, as I mentioned, you have to consider that this includes special teams and offensive points allowed. The Patriots tend to be pretty good at not allowing points in those phases of the game. But still. I’m a Patriots fan and I didn’t expect that.
Do you want to guess who has the best points against in the league over the last five years? And note of course that points against includes points against scored against the offence and special teams, so it’s not a perfect measure of defensive performance.
Would you guess the Seahawks, who have had one of the best defensive groups in the league, and who have rebuilt on the go into a group that keeps the Seahawks at the top of the league? Would you guess the Broncos, who had a historically great defense in 2015 and who have had some of the best defensive players in the league, from Von Miller to Harris Jr to Talib (for most of that span)? Would you guess the Ravens, who have had great defensive players and a reputation for great defenses?
A couple of surprises there, eh? #5 and #3 were teams that I didn’t expect. Recency bias is a fact for my surprise at #5; I had forgotten just how great they were in 2014 and 2015. And #3 is one of those teams that I think of as above average, but never really think of as great. But a lot of very good seasons pile up, and 2017 was a great year for them.
And that leaves the obvious champion for points allowed, 2014 to 2018:
New England Patriots: 1499 points allowed
Now, as I mentioned, you have to consider that this includes special teams and offensive points allowed. The Patriots tend to be pretty good at not allowing points in those phases of the game. But still. I’m a Patriots fan and I didn’t expect that.
I have a theory.
Bills
2014 Kyle Orton (12) / EJ Manuel (4)
2015 Matt Cassel (1)* / Tyrod Taylor (13) / EJ Manuel (2)
2016 Tyrod Taylor (15) / EJ Manuel (1)
2017 Tyrod Taylor (14) / Nathan Peterman (2)
2018 Josh Allen (11) / Nathan Peterman (2) / Derek Anderson (1) / Matt Barkley (1)
Dolphins
2014 Ryan Tannehill (16)
2015 Ryan Tannehill (16)
2016 Ryan Tannehill (13) Matt Moore (3)
2017 Jay Cutler (14) Matt Moore (2)
2018 Ryan Tannehill (11) Brock Osweiler (5)
Jets
2014 Geno Smith (13) / Michael Vick (3)
2015 Ryan Fitzpatrick (16)
2016 Ryan Fitzpatrick (11) / Bryce Petty (4) / Geno Smith (1)
2017 Josh McCown (13) / Bryce Petty (3)
2018 Sam Darnold (13) / Josh McCown (3)
Do you want to guess who has the best points against in the league over the last five years? And note of course that points against includes points against scored against the offence and special teams, so it’s not a perfect measure of defensive performance.
Would you guess the Seahawks, who have had one of the best defensive groups in the league, and who have rebuilt on the go into a group that keeps the Seahawks at the top of the league? Would you guess the Broncos, who had a historically great defense in 2015 and who have had some of the best defensive players in the league, from Von Miller to Harris Jr to Talib (for most of that span)? Would you guess the Ravens, who have had great defensive players and a reputation for great defenses?
A couple of surprises there, eh? #5 and #3 were teams that I didn’t expect. Recency bias is a fact for my surprise at #5; I had forgotten just how great they were in 2014 and 2015. And #3 is one of those teams that I think of as above average, but never really think of as great. But a lot of very good seasons pile up, and 2017 was a great year for them.
And that leaves the obvious champion for points allowed, 2014 to 2018:
New England Patriots: 1499 points allowed
Now, as I mentioned, you have to consider that this includes special teams and offensive points allowed. The Patriots tend to be pretty good at not allowing points in those phases of the game. But still. I’m a Patriots fan and I didn’t expect that.
Its more that the pats have had no bad years. Historically good defenses are still only a small bit better than regularly good defenses. And if you habe a couple average years those can wash out really fast.
The other thing is that “points allowed” is not a great measure of defensive quality because its dependent on offensive quality of play. If you divided by the amount of time those defenses were on the field i bet the patriots advantage would wash out. (Might not, but probably will)
Plus its buttressed by playing historically weak offenses.
Posts
Nice
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Good call for him. Go out on a superb owl win while he is still capable of walking. It's hard to give up something you love but his injuries were starting to really add up and if he wants any quality of life as he gets older stopping now is important.
In the last three games of his career, he had a signature "Gronk blows up the defense" run and catch against San Diego, a huge catch on third down in OT against the Chiefs, and the last catch of his career was the one that brought the Patriots to the two yard line in the Super Bowl. While the last was not a Super Bowl winning TD, it was the signature offensive play of the game (in fairness, not that there were many to choose from). Even at the end, while noticeably not what he once was, he could still Gronk a defense.
Gronk is retiring averaging 15.1 Y/R. That's higher than Tony Gonzalez (11.4), Larry Fitzgerald (12.5), Terrell Ownes (14.8) and Jerry Rice (14.8). He averaged a TD per 0.69 games, which is behind Moss (0.72) and Owens (0.70), but ahead of Rice (0.65), Fitzgerald (0.50) and Gonzalez (0.41). When it comes to catching passes, Gronk deserves consideration among the absolute best in NFL history. And he did that while also basically being one of the best offensive line guys in the league as well. And all this despite suffering enough injuries that it's a miracle he can still walk.
"Gronk" and "Safety" don't really go together.
I now want to see Gronk twerk on Booger McFarland.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
ed
Also IMO definitely the best TE of all time. His peak was better than any other TE as a receiver and the only ones who were close - Sharpe, Gonzalez, Gates - can't compare as a blocker.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
When you think of the best you have to consider longevity. I mean, Terrel Davis was amazing, but you wouldn't call him the best of all time because you only got 3 years out of him. The others played for many years while defining the position for their whole career.
Not to knock gronk. If putting together a team and you get a player at their peak, I'd probably pick gronk. He was amazing and I loved him whenever I saw him even as a dolphins fan. He was too big of a goofball to hate. But only playing 9 years has to hurt him when talking about GoAT.
What if Gronk goes to the WWE to wrestle?
It'd have to be a really limited timetable per year. The arm being held together by duct tape and bubblegum would be easy enough to compensate for when working matches, but his back would be another story.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
He hung around long enough to be 3rd in TD, 7th in yards (5th if you include the postseason) among TEs and none of the guys ahead of him could block basically at all.
And plenty of people still say Jim Brown was the greatest of all time and he played fewer games and seasons. Barry Sanders played 1 more season.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Brock Lesnar wrestles like three times in a year and he's champ. So Gronk could do like two matches and be double champ.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Dave Casper 1974-1984
Mike Ditka 1961-1972
John Mackey 1963-1972
Ozzie Newsome 1978-1990
Charlie Sanders 1968-1977
Shannon Sharpe 1990-2003
Jackie Smith 1963-1978
Kellen Winslow 1979-1987
So, if longevity were the key, Gronk would be at the low end, but still in the mix.
I think the goat case for Gronk is pretty strong, but -outside of QB obviously- I don't know if any position has benefited as much from the rules changes as TE. More passing, a much more open middle of the field, lots of nickle package defenses for mismatches, etc
Of the top 100 TE Rec/Rec Yards/TD seasons since the merger(1970-48 seasons) 75(3)/68(4)/58(6) of them were in the last 15 years. For WR is 62/58/46. Hell the last 10 is 58/52/49 vs 48/45/31. Even if you removed Gronk's seasons, ~1/2 of the best TE seasons ever occurred during his relatively short career. It's very possible that in 6 years when they are voting he might have fallen out of the top 10 in yards, will have fallen down in TDs.
Here’s something I didn’t realize until today.
Do you want to guess who has the best points against in the league over the last five years? And note of course that points against includes points against scored against the offence and special teams, so it’s not a perfect measure of defensive performance.
Would you guess the Seahawks, who have had one of the best defensive groups in the league, and who have rebuilt on the go into a group that keeps the Seahawks at the top of the league? Would you guess the Broncos, who had a historically great defense in 2015 and who have had some of the best defensive players in the league, from Von Miller to Harris Jr to Talib (for most of that span)? Would you guess the Ravens, who have had great defensive players and a reputation for great defenses?
Here’s #5 to #2:
5. Kansas City Chiefs: 1639 points allowed
4. Baltimore Ravens: 1614 points allowed
3. Minnesota Vikings: 1545 points allowed
2. Seattle Seahawks: 1502 points allowed
A couple of surprises there, eh? #5 and #3 were teams that I didn’t expect. Recency bias is a fact for my surprise at #5; I had forgotten just how great they were in 2014 and 2015. And #3 is one of those teams that I think of as above average, but never really think of as great. But a lot of very good seasons pile up, and 2017 was a great year for them.
And that leaves the obvious champion for points allowed, 2014 to 2018:
Now, as I mentioned, you have to consider that this includes special teams and offensive points allowed. The Patriots tend to be pretty good at not allowing points in those phases of the game. But still. I’m a Patriots fan and I didn’t expect that.
If you didn't expect the Vikings you haven't been paying attention to them. They've been doing pretty well for years now, though not well enough, but pretty much the only reason for that is defense because the offense has been... lets go with unreliable.
I expected the Vikings to be top 10. I didn't expect them to be where they are. I mean, gut-check: without looking it up, how many people would say "yeah, the Vikings have allowed fewer points over the last five years than the Broncos or Ravens." But the gap between the Vikings and the Broncos is 133 points; for some context, the Broncos themselves are ahead of the #10 Bengals by a mere 64 points.
Patriots world problems
NE also has allowed the fewest 2016-2018, 2015-2018, 2015-2017 but Seattle edges 2014-2017.
Also first in points scored 2014-2018 but only top 3-5 in smaller time periods.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I have a theory.
Bills
2014 Kyle Orton (12) / EJ Manuel (4)
2015 Matt Cassel (1)* / Tyrod Taylor (13) / EJ Manuel (2)
2016 Tyrod Taylor (15) / EJ Manuel (1)
2017 Tyrod Taylor (14) / Nathan Peterman (2)
2018 Josh Allen (11) / Nathan Peterman (2) / Derek Anderson (1) / Matt Barkley (1)
Dolphins
2014 Ryan Tannehill (16)
2015 Ryan Tannehill (16)
2016 Ryan Tannehill (13) Matt Moore (3)
2017 Jay Cutler (14) Matt Moore (2)
2018 Ryan Tannehill (11) Brock Osweiler (5)
Jets
2014 Geno Smith (13) / Michael Vick (3)
2015 Ryan Fitzpatrick (16)
2016 Ryan Fitzpatrick (11) / Bryce Petty (4) / Geno Smith (1)
2017 Josh McCown (13) / Bryce Petty (3)
2018 Sam Darnold (13) / Josh McCown (3)
Its more that the pats have had no bad years. Historically good defenses are still only a small bit better than regularly good defenses. And if you habe a couple average years those can wash out really fast.
The other thing is that “points allowed” is not a great measure of defensive quality because its dependent on offensive quality of play. If you divided by the amount of time those defenses were on the field i bet the patriots advantage would wash out. (Might not, but probably will)
Plus its buttressed by playing historically weak offenses.
Seattle
Atlanta
Philadelphia
LAR
Is a thing
it's a huge advantage to your defense wrt points scored to have a good offense that doesn't turn the ball over for the entire time you're measuring.
Huzzah.
And no one will ever complain about it ever again!
I have 549 Rock Band Drum and 305 Pro Drum FC's
REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS
Huzzah!
I love everything about that.
And the Reddit thread has some great responses
He did something wrong
I have 549 Rock Band Drum and 305 Pro Drum FC's
REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS REFS
Ah, Philadelphia continues to be The Most Ironically Named City in America.
Hey, nothing spreads brotherly love like a sandwich covered in whizz and a D-cell chucked at one's head at around 30 miles an hour.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Philly is where Santa was booed, HitchBot was murdered, and Gritty was born.
I rest my case.