I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited April 2019
Edit - This quote was a draft meant to be discarded and got posted by accident. So disregard!
I don't think anyone's saying marginalized people "should" gently educate their oppressors as in, have a moral responsibility to. Of course they don't. It's "should" as in, because a lot of privileged people won't listen unless we go to extreme lengths to protect their egos - and even then they probably still won't.
Why do the marginalized have to go through great efforts for the sake of the privileged? Why do queerfolk have to make sure they're polite to an asshole screaming slurs?
I don't think anyone's saying marginalized people "should" gently educate their oppressors as in, have a moral responsibility to. Of course they don't. It's "should" as in, because a lot of privileged people won't listen unless we go to extreme lengths to protect their egos - and even then they probably still won't.
If finding out that, I dunno, non-het relationships are in video games causes you (generic you) to become a member of a misogynistic homophobic white supremacist movement then you are not someone that could have really been engaged with constructively anyway, because you have a greater emotional connection to the "purity" of video games than you do to other human beings, and are a reactionary fascist.
There's a lot of people who CAN become fascists in the right political climate but mostly won't become fascists in normal circumstances.
There's something odd that goes off in people's brains when it comes to politics. Take prison, for example. I've seen this board argue passionately for prison reform focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment, because we believe people can change. Even people who have done awful things! I've seen it for myself in real life! I worked with a murderer turned youth pastor in Southern California, never met a humbler guy.
But when it comes to gamers, we're *so fucking ready* to write off a vast majority of them as hopeless, reactionary fascists that can't be reasoned with or brought around.
Is there a word for this? For the utter irrationality that politics can inflict upon us? There should be.
Have you ever tried to talk these groups into revising their sentiments? I've gone head to head with both Incels and the hardcore gamer right, both. But those examples are too hard: I've tried to talk to you, a person who can actually express himself rationally and calmly on this forum - something those other groups are quite incapable of, by the way, but that doesn't mean I don't try with them. But I'm getting distracted, I've tried to directly address you about issues as important as accepting a "no" when a woman tells you no, and at using ever form of rhetoric I know of, I wasn't able to convince you of the importance of that. How can I, then, convince an alt-right gamer that it's OK for me, and POC, and QUILTBAG folk to play games, too? How can I talk them into seeing me as a human being? I couldn't even convince you of that fact!
No one's going to agree on everything. I don't want to drag our past conflicts here, but personally I feel we're not as far apart as you think. What we disagreed on was the finer points of the modern dating scene, not whether you were a human being or not. I'm sure there's other areas where we vehemently disagree too. Probably along the lines of free speech and the like? And... well... that's ok. I still see you us as being broadly on the same side despite some the views you hold.
I think the importance is finding common ground. That's the foundation, that's where growth begins. Based on your post, I can tell you that you probably think worse of them than they do of you. I'm thinking here of the gaming guild I've helped run for the past 5-6 years. SJW jokes galore, so many memes and a plethora of non-PC related discussion. It's also a great group of people that's at least half made up of minorities and poc. The guild lead is from the Philippines. 3/5 officers are from Taiwan and Vietnam. Two black americans, one Egyptian, a handful of women and then like 8-10 of us straight white males. This is what's in my mind when I'm talking about this stuff.
They should be on our team. They're not fascists by any stretch, they're not even really right! But they want nothing to do with the left, and they think the left wants nothing to do with them. And given the thread here I can't really say they're wrong. The vast majority of people I've interacted with in my years gaming fit roughly the same profile. Plenty of assholes but the majority just people trying to fit in their community and have a good time, and almost universally I've found a poisoned well when it comes to the left, liberals and progressives. People consider them be sex-negative, prudish, anti-violence and oversensitive to pretty much everything. Projection? Sure, whatever. But reputation's a reputation, and there's a huge number of people--non-facist, normal, "moderate" people--who just want nothing to do with the left. And based off of my interactions with the "Left" on these matters in general (both here and elsewhere) the left doesn't want them either. It's easier to write them off and bundle them up in a nice, neat "alt right package".
That is the difference between us and the alt right. The alt right is a big tent. They're focused on finding common ground to draw people in. We categorically do not do that. We look for reasons to call someone out or shut them up or shut them out. And then we are surprised that they draw in the people we shut out or told were unwelcome.
In the end, I'm not trying to say there's this huge majority of good, honest, perfect people the left rudely and needless rejected. That's not it. I'm saying there's a huge number of people who could be on our side--not wholly, not bought in on every issue and point of ideology--but broadly and that would be awesome! Not everyone's going to be a fanatic, not everyone is going to be invested in it like you guys are, not everyone is going to be on the cutting edge and passionate about diversity and all that shit and they don't have to be. It is better that they're broadly on our side than on the other, and it is unnerving to me that we cannot recognize that. It is unnerving that we do not understand the word Compromise. The well is poisoned and it doesn't matter who poisoned it, we can deal with it or not and the prevailing opinion here is not.
I'm at work and it's hastily written, so I apologize if it's slightly sloppy, I attempted to make it coherent.
I was there; I was one of the women desperately trying to convince you that "No" doesn't mean "try harder." That the bolded is how you remember it is exactly the problem Cambiata is describing: when marginalized people say, "Please stop doing violence to us," too often, the response they get is "we're not."
As I tried to explain back then, your experience is not a monolith. I'd never have met my wife if not for my persistence, and I am living a happier life than I ever thought possible because of her. Everyone trying to speak for her and to her personal experience was pretty distasteful, speaking personally. Apparently a woman's experience only matters when it matches with established doctrine.
In the interests of not utterly derailing this thread, I'd like to ask a moratorium of rehashing that thread. A SKFM-style thread monopolization is something I'd like to avoid (RIP old buddy).
Let's not lose sight of the fact that for a lot of people, pwning soyboy cucks for lulz is all that matters. They don't want to engage in a meaningful dialogue. They simply want to watch their opposition squirm. Not all, but a lot, certainly. And, having difficulty separating that noise from whatever signal is emanating from that side of the political spectrum is, in itself, a tactic.
Knowing a few Coal Rollers this is sadly too true. This demographic is also a lot older than you’d hope.
TBH there's a subset that responds to gentle education with mockery and ignoring you and telling them to fuck right off works better to convince them. Tactics have to vary for the people you're talking to and the audience.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
Let's go ahead and start with advocating for the dehumanization of and violence against groups and work from there. This forum has certainly benefited from not allowing for it.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
I've been feeling extremely pessimistic about the future for the last couple years, and this thread encapsulates why. There is so much effort to make people compromise in order to find common ground, when what we're being asked to compromise on is, is it okay to treat a minority like shit because they're a minority. This statement:
We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side.
suggests that the only way to beat white supremacists is to allow them to beat on and harm a minority once in a while. To 'throw them under the bus' in order to not offend the moderates. I see this in the same light as every other suggestion of sometimes a sacrifice must be made to accomplish our goals.
It's all fine and dandy when you're not the one doing the sacrificing.
Frankie, do you really think you'll be the one against the wall when progressives step back and allow a minority to be trampled by white supremacy? If not, then who the hell do you think you are? How dare you think you can ask others to make the sacrifice for YOU to be comfortable. To not have to work. To not have to ask hard questions. How fucking massive is your privilege right now? Who do YOU choose to make that sacrifice, then? Who are YOU okay with being beaten and lynched because their skin is the wrong colour or they love the wrong person?
Unless it's you who is making that sacrifice, you do not get to say that's what has to happen.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I think it's a mistake to view the alt-right as "an open tent." If you've spent time in those communities, you find they are very closed door on certain topics. Everyone gets to be invited up to a point. One of the worst victims of gamergate was a tran woman who agreed with gamergate, but then dared to question a high-profile gamergate VIP. (I don't even remember who she had questions about, I don't even think it was someone as high-profile as Milo Yannopolis, it was someone much lower tier). As soon as she dared to question, she was an outcast. And this happens in every conservative sphere. There are a lot of conservative women out there, who find themselves deeply hurt once they realize their husbands genuinely think of them as a lesser being than themselves (I'm talking from family experience of a multi-generational ultra-conservative family of which I am the liberal black sheep). These women would not speak publicly about their pain, they will not change their vote... they just live with it. But I think younger women are less prone to just living with it once they see the game that's being played on them.
For men I can't answer; but I do feel like alt-rightism has a shelf life, but there's always a new generation of young men coming up to carry the flag anew.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
Uh. What? On the list of evils perpetrated by Nazi Germany, censorship of specific parts of media are lower on the list than, say, genocide, murder, and war.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
I don't normally do this, but this is very goosey of you here.
EDIT: Like, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, but posts like that will definitely make people write you and the things you say off forever.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that for a lot of people, pwning soyboy cucks for lulz is all that matters. They don't want to engage in a meaningful dialogue. They simply want to watch their opposition squirm. Not all, but a lot, certainly. And, having difficulty separating that noise from whatever signal is emanating from that side of the political spectrum is, in itself, a tactic.
that's pretty key
when we think about the big tent concept for the alt-right, what we're meaning is that they have a tent where bad acts have no consequences, bad behavior and antisocial attitudes are welcome, and you're only unwelcome if you show a conscience or empathy.
you can be a bad person to basically anyone, and that's fine in the alt-right. You can't do that in the progressive left except as a wokeness competition or vs some pre-defined groups. Clear difference - you can be a silly goose and the worse the better, vs proving that you're more virtuous.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
Let's go ahead and start with advocating for the dehumanization of and violence against groups and work from there. This forum has certainly benefited from not allowing for it.
Sure. Good. I don't see how that will limit alt right recruitment as I don't think outright calls for violence are how they attract people who are not yet radicalized.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
Let's go ahead and start with advocating for the dehumanization of and violence against groups and work from there. This forum has certainly benefited from not allowing for it.
Sure. Good. I don't see how that will limit alt right recruitment as I don't think outright calls for violence are how they attract people who are not yet radicalized.
The president himself, poster boy for the alt right, has repeatedly advocated violence as a tool against political opponents. Demagogues like Limbaugh and Alex Jones do the same. The alt right absolutely supports violence against others. You do not know what you're talking about.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that for a lot of people, pwning soyboy cucks for lulz is all that matters. They don't want to engage in a meaningful dialogue. They simply want to watch their opposition squirm. Not all, but a lot, certainly. And, having difficulty separating that noise from whatever signal is emanating from that side of the political spectrum is, in itself, a tactic.
that's pretty key
when we think about the big tent concept for the alt-right, what we're meaning is that they have a tent where bad acts have no consequences, bad behavior and antisocial attitudes are welcome, and you're only unwelcome if you show a conscience or empathy.
you can be a bad person to basically anyone, and that's fine in the alt-right. You can't do that in the progressive left except as a wokeness competition or vs some pre-defined groups. Clear difference - you can be a silly goose and the worse the better, vs proving that you're more virtuous.
Eeeeeeh no. They have their list of things you're not allowed to bitch about. *But* it more or less aligns with their recruiting goals anyway.
The problem with talking about bullying as a root issue for right-wing gamers is that plenty of women, non-binary, non-straight and non-white people were also bullied in school for being nerdy.
So to then ask those same people to coddle the white men who were bullied for being nerdy...
I brought this up earlier in the thread, but popular media has more bad representation of nerdy straight white guys than it does other nerds (although that's because nerds who aren't straight white guys usually aren't represented at all in media; bad representation vs no representation).
Right; and I dislike that, and have been vocally critical of it elsewhere.
I’m not entirely sure how it relates to my post (I think there was another post of mine you quoted on a previous page that I never responded to because I also wasn’t sure how it related).
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
Let's go ahead and start with advocating for the dehumanization of and violence against groups and work from there. This forum has certainly benefited from not allowing for it.
Sure. Good. I don't see how that will limit alt right recruitment as I don't think outright calls for violence are how they attract people who are not yet radicalized.
The president himself, poster boy for the alt right, has repeatedly advocated violence as a tool against political opponents. Demagogues like Limbaugh and Alex Jones do the same. The alt right absolutely supports violence against others. You do not know what you're talking about.
That's not the argument that was being made. Read the bolded again?
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
Let's go ahead and start with advocating for the dehumanization of and violence against groups and work from there. This forum has certainly benefited from not allowing for it.
Sure. Good. I don't see how that will limit alt right recruitment as I don't think outright calls for violence are how they attract people who are not yet radicalized.
The president himself, poster boy for the alt right, has repeatedly advocated violence as a tool against political opponents. Demagogues like Limbaugh and Alex Jones do the same. The alt right absolutely supports violence against others. You do not know what you're talking about.
And non extremist leftists call for the deaths of all rich people as of late.
"Eat the rich" is basically a leftist slogan at this point. You may not have noticed, that's a call to extreme violence right there.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that for a lot of people, pwning soyboy cucks for lulz is all that matters. They don't want to engage in a meaningful dialogue. They simply want to watch their opposition squirm. Not all, but a lot, certainly. And, having difficulty separating that noise from whatever signal is emanating from that side of the political spectrum is, in itself, a tactic.
that's pretty key
when we think about the big tent concept for the alt-right, what we're meaning is that they have a tent where bad acts have no consequences, bad behavior and antisocial attitudes are welcome, and you're only unwelcome if you show a conscience or empathy.
you can be a bad person to basically anyone, and that's fine in the alt-right. You can't do that in the progressive left except as a wokeness competition or vs some pre-defined groups. Clear difference - you can be a silly goose and the worse the better, vs proving that you're more virtuous.
This very much overlooks the fact that anyone slightly different spotted attacking the "wrong" person is immediately turned upon. A black woman posting to r/the_donald won't last 20 seconds if she shits on the president. Even if it was civil criticism it wouldn't matter.
We do still understand humor, yes? Do I have to pull up my extinguished family tree to make that joke.
Oy vey.
If you believe that credentialing is what we are seeking (we're not), then that's part of the problem with your argument and your contemptuous (from my point of view, you have to understand... "You progressives Just Don't Get It") view of your audience. Also, you JUST threw out something about not derailing the thread, and then proceed to Godwin it... there's a bit of tonal whiplash there.
I think it's a mistake to view the alt-right as "an open tent." If you've spent time in those communities, you find they are very closed door on certain topics. Everyone gets to be invited up to a point. One of the worst victims of gamergate was a tran woman who agreed with gamergate, but then dared to question a high-profile gamergate VIP. (I don't even remember who she had questions about, I don't even think it was someone as high-profile as Milo Yannopolis, it was someone much lower tier). As soon as she dared to question, she was an outcast. And this happens in every conservative sphere. There are a lot of conservative women out there, who find themselves deeply hurt once they realize their husbands genuinely think of them as a lesser being than themselves (I'm talking from family experience of a multi-generational ultra-conservative family of which I am the liberal black sheep). These women would not speak publicly about their pain, they will not change their vote... they just live with it. But I think younger women are less prone to just living with it once they see the game that's being played on them.
For men I can't answer; but I do feel like alt-rightism has a shelf life, but there's always a new generation of young men coming up to carry the flag anew.
The reason it keeps going on and on and on is because gaming offers the perfect place for them to communicate with people and to sway them. I mean, what happens when you get into a random match with and form a party with one of these people? The squad chat offers anonymous communication, little to no moderation, and nobody offering a counterpoint or argument against the provided position, allowing the first few ideas to sink in- and then you bring them into the clan/guild/free company/whatever, give them a built-in private Discord and bombard them with links and vids and there it goes.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
I don't normally do this, but this is very goosey of you here.
EDIT: Like, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, but posts like that will definitely make people write you and the things you say off forever.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
Let's go ahead and start with advocating for the dehumanization of and violence against groups and work from there. This forum has certainly benefited from not allowing for it.
Sure. Good. I don't see how that will limit alt right recruitment as I don't think outright calls for violence are how they attract people who are not yet radicalized.
The president himself, poster boy for the alt right, has repeatedly advocated violence as a tool against political opponents. Demagogues like Limbaugh and Alex Jones do the same. The alt right absolutely supports violence against others. You do not know what you're talking about.
And non extremist leftists call for the deaths of all rich people as of late.
"Eat the rich" is basically a leftist slogan at this point. You may not have noticed, that's a call to extreme violence right there.
The day some liberal follows through on a non realistic statement and rolls in to a Manhattan penthouse to consume the occupants I'll care. I suspect however that it's going to be a long wait.
Meanwhile I've got MAGA bomber, New Zealand shooter, and Coast Guard officer all actually acting on their community's very literal and continuing calls to violence.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
You're not the only person who lost family. Give it a rest.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
I don't normally do this, but this is very goosey of you here.
EDIT: Like, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, but posts like that will definitely make people write you and the things you say off forever.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
Your claim that we need to be kinder and more understanding of the alt right would probably be more convincing if you didn't immediately dismiss other people's own feelings.
+12
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
The reason it keeps going on and on and on is because gaming offers the perfect place for them to communicate with people and to sway them. I mean, what happens when you get into a random match with and form a party with one of these people? The squad chat offers anonymous communication, little to no moderation, and nobody offering a counterpoint or argument against the provided position, allowing the first few ideas to sink in- and then you bring them into the clan/guild/free company/whatever, give them a built-in private Discord and bombard them with links and vids and there it goes.
I'm pretty dubious of this model. Random matches are not a good place for creating connections; by their nature they're incredibly transitory.
Is anonymous matchmade gaming a fairly consequence free soapbox for shitters to be shitty? Absolutely. But as a platform for recruitment, I don't think it's very good.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
0
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
What more common ground could there possibly be between people who like games but want them to be more inclusive and people who like games but don't want them to be more inclusive? Everybody in that conversation likes games! If common ground were sufficient to keep people from radicalizing this thread wouldn't exist.
I think the importance is finding common ground. That's the foundation, that's where growth begins. Based on your post, I can tell you that you probably think worse of them than they do of you. I'm thinking here of the gaming guild I've helped run for the past 5-6 years. SJW jokes galore, so many memes and a plethora of non-PC related discussion. It's also a great group of people that's at least half made up of minorities and poc. The guild lead is from the Philippines. 3/5 officers are from Taiwan and Vietnam. Two black americans, one Egyptian, a handful of women and then like 8-10 of us straight white males. This is what's in my mind when I'm talking about this stuff.
They should be on our team. They're not fascists by any stretch, they're not even really right! But they want nothing to do with the left, and they think the left wants nothing to do with them. And given the thread here I can't really say they're wrong. The vast majority of people I've interacted with in my years gaming fit roughly the same profile. Plenty of assholes but the majority just people trying to fit in their community and have a good time, and almost universally I've found a poisoned well when it comes to the left, liberals and progressives. People consider them be sex-negative, prudish, anti-violence and oversensitive to pretty much everything. Projection? Sure, whatever. But reputation's a reputation, and there's a huge number of people--non-facist, normal, "moderate" people--who just want nothing to do with the left. And based off of my interactions with the "Left" on these matters in general (both here and elsewhere) the left doesn't want them either. It's easier to write them off and bundle them up in a nice, neat "alt right package".
That is the difference between us and the alt right. The alt right is a big tent. They're focused on finding common ground to draw people in. We categorically do not do that. We look for reasons to call someone out or shut them up or shut them out. And then we are surprised that they draw in the people we shut out or told were unwelcome.
In the end, I'm not trying to say there's this huge majority of good, honest, perfect people the left rudely and needless rejected. That's not it. I'm saying there's a huge number of people who could be on our side--not wholly, not bought in on every issue and point of ideology--but broadly and that would be awesome! Not everyone's going to be a fanatic, not everyone is going to be invested in it like you guys are, not everyone is going to be on the cutting edge and passionate about diversity and all that shit and they don't have to be. It is better that they're broadly on our side than on the other, and it is unnerving to me that we cannot recognize that. It is unnerving that we do not understand the word Compromise. The well is poisoned and it doesn't matter who poisoned it, we can deal with it or not and the prevailing opinion here is not.
I am so tired of this argument, and attempts in general to sanitise this as a purely ideological battle between the left and the right.
I'm speaking of my own experiences as someone in one of the many marginalised groups wanting better representation in gaming. I've encountered multiple incidents of homophobia, transphobia and racism in my time in online communities. I've left guilds because of other players making gay slurs and getting a response back from officers that was essentially 'look they're just joking around/it's just words/get a thicker skin', of seeing other players doubling down just from me asking them not to use homophobic or racial slurs. In real life, I've been assaulted less than 100m from my own front door because some random strangers took exception to me resting my head on my boyfriend's shoulder for a few seconds on a bus home, and actually decided to follow us off the bus with the explicit intent of beating the shit out of us. I've had to refute comparisons people have made between homosexuality and paedophilia (from members of my own fucking family!). I've lived through governments legislating against my very existence, and I'm watching the exact same thing happen right now with trans men and women.
And all of this has been against a low-level background societal acceptance of that being 'just the way it is'. So you'll have to forgive me if I take a very dim view of the assertion that marginalised groups do not understand the word Compromise. We absolutely do. And for the longest time we have understood it to mean 'accept that you are lesser than us, that you are less deserving than us, that you will never be allowed to have the same freedoms, rights and representation as us'.
And you'll also have to forgive me if my response to being told we need to compromise is a resounding 'fuck that shit!'. But I will be damned before I ask forgiveness for looking side-eyed at a self-identified straight white male who categorises this as diversity and all that shit.
I would ask though, using again your specific example of that guild, what exactly your response was to the 'SJW jokes galore, so many memes and a plethora of non-PC discussion'; did you (or anyone else for that matter) actually do anything to combat/nudge/adjust the conversation away from such things?
Well, I would ask, but I kind of already have an idea of what the answer would be.
It's all saltwater these days:
Ocean, tears and heartbreak soup
Half alive in a whitecap foam
Half in love with a white half moon
+22
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
I don't normally do this, but this is very goosey of you here.
EDIT: Like, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, but posts like that will definitely make people write you and the things you say off forever.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
I am honestly surprised, then, at how cavalier you are towards the alt-right, considering their stated goals, and what they've done in the past. It definitely changes my understanding of what you've said, though I'm probably more confused now than ever. Your family suffered by the manifestation of the ideals and objectives that you're asking us to be more permissive towards.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
You're not the only person who lost family. Give it a rest.
This entire thread is glutted with Nazi this Nazi that, you’ll survive a single Nazi joke.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
I don't normally do this, but this is very goosey of you here.
EDIT: Like, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, but posts like that will definitely make people write you and the things you say off forever.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
Your claim that we need to be kinder and more understanding of the alt right would probably be more convincing if you didn't immediately dismiss other people's own feelings.
I’m not being unkind, I’m just not going to browbeaten about making a joke about my own heritage. We talk about Nazis every other page but a joke? NEIN! I know y’all mean well but you’re being silly.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
You're not the only person who lost family. Give it a rest.
This entire thread is glutted with Nazi this Nazi that, you’ll survive a single Nazi joke.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
I don't normally do this, but this is very goosey of you here.
EDIT: Like, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, but posts like that will definitely make people write you and the things you say off forever.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
Your claim that we need to be kinder and more understanding of the alt right would probably be more convincing if you didn't immediately dismiss other people's own feelings.
I’m not being unkind, I’m just not going to browbeaten about making a joke about my own heritage. We talk about Nazis every other page but a joke? NEIN! I know y’all mean well but you’re being silly.
Cool, none of us are being unkind when we say sexist, racist, phobic geese don't deserve the time of day.
+6
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
I’m not being unkind, I’m just not going to browbeaten about making a joke about my own heritage. We talk about Nazis every other page but a joke? NEIN! I know y’all mean well but you’re being silly.
Okay, but what we're talking about when we say "Nazi" every page are actual neo-Nazis, exactly one-for-one what the alt-right is. That's serious, there's not a meaning for joke or hyperbole, at least when I'm using it.
These folks are fascist white supremacists who hate all the same folks and call for all the same things as Nazis. They are Nazis.
I find it dismaying that you seem to be reading it in any other less serious way.
Kalnaur on
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
I don't normally do this, but this is very goosey of you here.
EDIT: Like, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, but posts like that will definitely make people write you and the things you say off forever.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
I am honestly surprised, then, at how cavalier you are towards the alt-right, considering their stated goals, and what they've done in the past. It definitely changes my understanding of what you've said, though I'm probably more confused now than ever. Your family suffered by the manifestation of the ideals and objectives that you're asking us to be more permissive towards.
I'm at a loss.
Naturally, because I see my efforts as pushing in the opposite direction of another holocaust. Good guys won’t win by alienating all their potential allies and purity testing themselves into tiny internet bubbles.
As I’ve said before, I know people here mean well. We disagree on messaging and some finer points of ideology but we’re on the same team.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
I don't normally do this, but this is very goosey of you here.
EDIT: Like, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, but posts like that will definitely make people write you and the things you say off forever.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
I am honestly surprised, then, at how cavalier you are towards the alt-right, considering their stated goals, and what they've done in the past. It definitely changes my understanding of what you've said, though I'm probably more confused now than ever. Your family suffered by the manifestation of the ideals and objectives that you're asking us to be more permissive towards.
I'm at a loss.
Naturally, because I see my efforts as pushing in the opposite direction of another holocaust. Good guys won’t win by alienating all their potential allies and purity testing themselves into tiny internet bubbles.
As I’ve said before, I know people here mean well. We disagree on messaging and some finer points of ideology but we’re on the same team.
In reality your efforts are one step on the recruiting chain, whether you intend that or not.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
I don't normally do this, but this is very goosey of you here.
EDIT: Like, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, but posts like that will definitely make people write you and the things you say off forever.
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
I am honestly surprised, then, at how cavalier you are towards the alt-right, considering their stated goals, and what they've done in the past. It definitely changes my understanding of what you've said, though I'm probably more confused now than ever. Your family suffered by the manifestation of the ideals and objectives that you're asking us to be more permissive towards.
I'm at a loss.
As far as I can tell, Frankie's position seems to be not "the Alt-Right is good" but "not every woman or PoC is as progressive as the average poster in this thread". The response is "just because a woman or PoC isn't protesting doesn't mean they don't privately feel uncomfortable." It's more similar to the earlier D&D-related conversation where someone posted "if I started going on a tangent about colonialism in my Saturday D&D game (which includes PoC and female players) people would be weirded out."
Personally, I don't know where exactly I stand here. I find Frankie's attitude too dismissive of possible harm, but at the same time I wouldn't want to DM a D&D game for the person who wrote that Monster Hunter World article posted earlier because I'd imagine they'd be judging me the whole time (if I had to choose, though, I'd pick them as a player over an Alt-Righter every time with no hesitation).
I am really unconvinced that deplatforming will work. That's basically what we did to racists. And so they just started using dog whistles. And then dog whistles of those dog whistles. And then surprise decades later when someone is willing to just be openly racist there is this huge pool of people who turns out are actually pretty racist still and raring to go.
Deplatforming absolutely works. It's just that fascists are good at finding new platforms, and found the internet as readily available breeding ground.
Posts
So what does zero tolerance mean? What is the line that you think Reddit, etc all should be using to delineate acceptable content from unacceptable content?
As I tried to explain back then, your experience is not a monolith. I'd never have met my wife if not for my persistence, and I am living a happier life than I ever thought possible because of her. Everyone trying to speak for her and to her personal experience was pretty distasteful, speaking personally. Apparently a woman's experience only matters when it matches with established doctrine.
In the interests of not utterly derailing this thread, I'd like to ask a moratorium of rehashing that thread. A SKFM-style thread monopolization is something I'd like to avoid (RIP old buddy).
Knowing a few Coal Rollers this is sadly too true. This demographic is also a lot older than you’d hope.
Let's go ahead and start with advocating for the dehumanization of and violence against groups and work from there. This forum has certainly benefited from not allowing for it.
The forum you're presently visiting is a good model.
I've been feeling extremely pessimistic about the future for the last couple years, and this thread encapsulates why. There is so much effort to make people compromise in order to find common ground, when what we're being asked to compromise on is, is it okay to treat a minority like shit because they're a minority. This statement:
suggests that the only way to beat white supremacists is to allow them to beat on and harm a minority once in a while. To 'throw them under the bus' in order to not offend the moderates. I see this in the same light as every other suggestion of sometimes a sacrifice must be made to accomplish our goals.
It's all fine and dandy when you're not the one doing the sacrificing.
Frankie, do you really think you'll be the one against the wall when progressives step back and allow a minority to be trampled by white supremacy? If not, then who the hell do you think you are? How dare you think you can ask others to make the sacrifice for YOU to be comfortable. To not have to work. To not have to ask hard questions. How fucking massive is your privilege right now? Who do YOU choose to make that sacrifice, then? Who are YOU okay with being beaten and lynched because their skin is the wrong colour or they love the wrong person?
Unless it's you who is making that sacrifice, you do not get to say that's what has to happen.
You can't even talk about anime here, making PA forums precisely 3 points of evil worse than Nazi Germany.
So at the minimum, in addition to a worldwide PA forum we will require a Weeb Containment Zone.
For men I can't answer; but I do feel like alt-rightism has a shelf life, but there's always a new generation of young men coming up to carry the flag anew.
I don't normally do this, but this is very goosey of you here.
EDIT: Like, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, but posts like that will definitely make people write you and the things you say off forever.
Which makes it worse.
that's pretty key
when we think about the big tent concept for the alt-right, what we're meaning is that they have a tent where bad acts have no consequences, bad behavior and antisocial attitudes are welcome, and you're only unwelcome if you show a conscience or empathy.
you can be a bad person to basically anyone, and that's fine in the alt-right. You can't do that in the progressive left except as a wokeness competition or vs some pre-defined groups. Clear difference - you can be a silly goose and the worse the better, vs proving that you're more virtuous.
Sure. Good. I don't see how that will limit alt right recruitment as I don't think outright calls for violence are how they attract people who are not yet radicalized.
The president himself, poster boy for the alt right, has repeatedly advocated violence as a tool against political opponents. Demagogues like Limbaugh and Alex Jones do the same. The alt right absolutely supports violence against others. You do not know what you're talking about.
Oy vey.
Eeeeeeh no. They have their list of things you're not allowed to bitch about. *But* it more or less aligns with their recruiting goals anyway.
Right; and I dislike that, and have been vocally critical of it elsewhere.
I’m not entirely sure how it relates to my post (I think there was another post of mine you quoted on a previous page that I never responded to because I also wasn’t sure how it related).
That's not the argument that was being made. Read the bolded again?
And non extremist leftists call for the deaths of all rich people as of late.
"Eat the rich" is basically a leftist slogan at this point. You may not have noticed, that's a call to extreme violence right there.
This very much overlooks the fact that anyone slightly different spotted attacking the "wrong" person is immediately turned upon. A black woman posting to r/the_donald won't last 20 seconds if she shits on the president. Even if it was civil criticism it wouldn't matter.
The reason it keeps going on and on and on is because gaming offers the perfect place for them to communicate with people and to sway them. I mean, what happens when you get into a random match with and form a party with one of these people? The squad chat offers anonymous communication, little to no moderation, and nobody offering a counterpoint or argument against the provided position, allowing the first few ideas to sink in- and then you bring them into the clan/guild/free company/whatever, give them a built-in private Discord and bombard them with links and vids and there it goes.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
And I regret that, but it’s my family that died in concentration camps and I reserve the right to make light of it as I see fit. People can be adults about it or not, I can’t control them.
The day some liberal follows through on a non realistic statement and rolls in to a Manhattan penthouse to consume the occupants I'll care. I suspect however that it's going to be a long wait.
Meanwhile I've got MAGA bomber, New Zealand shooter, and Coast Guard officer all actually acting on their community's very literal and continuing calls to violence.
Your claim that we need to be kinder and more understanding of the alt right would probably be more convincing if you didn't immediately dismiss other people's own feelings.
Is anonymous matchmade gaming a fairly consequence free soapbox for shitters to be shitty? Absolutely. But as a platform for recruitment, I don't think it's very good.
I am so tired of this argument, and attempts in general to sanitise this as a purely ideological battle between the left and the right.
I'm speaking of my own experiences as someone in one of the many marginalised groups wanting better representation in gaming. I've encountered multiple incidents of homophobia, transphobia and racism in my time in online communities. I've left guilds because of other players making gay slurs and getting a response back from officers that was essentially 'look they're just joking around/it's just words/get a thicker skin', of seeing other players doubling down just from me asking them not to use homophobic or racial slurs. In real life, I've been assaulted less than 100m from my own front door because some random strangers took exception to me resting my head on my boyfriend's shoulder for a few seconds on a bus home, and actually decided to follow us off the bus with the explicit intent of beating the shit out of us. I've had to refute comparisons people have made between homosexuality and paedophilia (from members of my own fucking family!). I've lived through governments legislating against my very existence, and I'm watching the exact same thing happen right now with trans men and women.
And all of this has been against a low-level background societal acceptance of that being 'just the way it is'. So you'll have to forgive me if I take a very dim view of the assertion that marginalised groups do not understand the word Compromise. We absolutely do. And for the longest time we have understood it to mean 'accept that you are lesser than us, that you are less deserving than us, that you will never be allowed to have the same freedoms, rights and representation as us'.
And you'll also have to forgive me if my response to being told we need to compromise is a resounding 'fuck that shit!'. But I will be damned before I ask forgiveness for looking side-eyed at a self-identified straight white male who categorises this as diversity and all that shit.
I would ask though, using again your specific example of that guild, what exactly your response was to the 'SJW jokes galore, so many memes and a plethora of non-PC discussion'; did you (or anyone else for that matter) actually do anything to combat/nudge/adjust the conversation away from such things?
Well, I would ask, but I kind of already have an idea of what the answer would be.
Ocean, tears and heartbreak soup
Half alive in a whitecap foam
Half in love with a white half moon
I am honestly surprised, then, at how cavalier you are towards the alt-right, considering their stated goals, and what they've done in the past. It definitely changes my understanding of what you've said, though I'm probably more confused now than ever. Your family suffered by the manifestation of the ideals and objectives that you're asking us to be more permissive towards.
I'm at a loss.
This entire thread is glutted with Nazi this Nazi that, you’ll survive a single Nazi joke.
I’m not being unkind, I’m just not going to browbeaten about making a joke about my own heritage. We talk about Nazis every other page but a joke? NEIN! I know y’all mean well but you’re being silly.
Cool, none of us are being unkind when we say sexist, racist, phobic geese don't deserve the time of day.
Okay, but what we're talking about when we say "Nazi" every page are actual neo-Nazis, exactly one-for-one what the alt-right is. That's serious, there's not a meaning for joke or hyperbole, at least when I'm using it.
These folks are fascist white supremacists who hate all the same folks and call for all the same things as Nazis. They are Nazis.
I find it dismaying that you seem to be reading it in any other less serious way.
Naturally, because I see my efforts as pushing in the opposite direction of another holocaust. Good guys won’t win by alienating all their potential allies and purity testing themselves into tiny internet bubbles.
As I’ve said before, I know people here mean well. We disagree on messaging and some finer points of ideology but we’re on the same team.
In reality your efforts are one step on the recruiting chain, whether you intend that or not.
As far as I can tell, Frankie's position seems to be not "the Alt-Right is good" but "not every woman or PoC is as progressive as the average poster in this thread". The response is "just because a woman or PoC isn't protesting doesn't mean they don't privately feel uncomfortable." It's more similar to the earlier D&D-related conversation where someone posted "if I started going on a tangent about colonialism in my Saturday D&D game (which includes PoC and female players) people would be weirded out."
Personally, I don't know where exactly I stand here. I find Frankie's attitude too dismissive of possible harm, but at the same time I wouldn't want to DM a D&D game for the person who wrote that Monster Hunter World article posted earlier because I'd imagine they'd be judging me the whole time (if I had to choose, though, I'd pick them as a player over an Alt-Righter every time with no hesitation).