I don't think there are any fewer places to "hang out" than there have ever been.
There are still plenty of parks, libraries, and community centers around.
I'm not really sure where people go, though... bars? The mall maybe?
Can go to just about anywhere regularly and eventually meet people. I just decided to go play pool at the bar across the street and after a month or so of going by myself regularly I knew the bartenders and a bunch of people that I ended up friends with.
With things like Meetup and stuff there really isn't an excuse beyond low population to not find something to do.
They're not looking for something to do. They want to have sex with Emily Ratajkowski. Not a relationship with that nice girl bowling in the lane next to them.
Volunteering tends to be a) somewhere folks want new people to come in with a pretty open agenda about why b) involves going and doing something constructive c) a probably for a good cause d) doing these things together with other people.
It could be better than a bar for a lot of people, there are tons of ways to go about, and most of them are advertised in one way or another.
Wild shot in the dark, but I'm guessing it's not very popular with incels.
When you get to the level of social isolation where you literally have no friends, going out to meet new people in any way is incredibly overwhelming.
I don't think there are any fewer places to "hang out" than there have ever been.
There are still plenty of parks, libraries, and community centers around.
I'm not really sure where people go, though... bars? The mall maybe?
Can go to just about anywhere regularly and eventually meet people. I just decided to go play pool at the bar across the street and after a month or so of going by myself regularly I knew the bartenders and a bunch of people that I ended up friends with.
With things like Meetup and stuff there really isn't an excuse beyond low population to not find something to do.
They're not looking for something to do. They want to have sex with Emily Ratajkowski. Not a relationship with that nice girl bowling in the lane next to them.
Volunteering tends to be a) somewhere folks want new people to come in with a pretty open agenda about why b) involves going and doing something constructive c) a probably for a good cause d) doing these things together with other people.
It could be better than a bar for a lot of people, there are tons of ways to go about, and most of them are advertised in one way or another.
Wild shot in the dark, but I'm guessing it's not very popular with incels.
When you get to the level of social isolation where you literally have no friends, going out to meet new people in any way is incredibly overwhelming.
I have hordes of friends and it still terrifies me.
I'm an atheist and I think a lot of the online criticism of atheists is really unfair (especially the US' treatment of atheists, even from purportedly progressive and accepting people, on this very forum on fact!), and I don't think it's fair to say that there's really a massive connection between atheism and incels, any more than I'd blame "religion" for the ills of Evangelical Christians.
I don't think it's a thing like, "all atheists are incels", that would be a bullshit thing to say. My husband is an atheist and he is not an incel. But I do think it's fair to say that a large contingent of the visible incel world - that which exists online - is strongly atheist, just as I would say a large contingent of the homophobic world is Christian. Angry, regressive, non-intellectual atheists have been ranting online more and more frequently in the last decade, they have definitely become a "thing." Hell, Sargon of Akkad - aka Carl Benjamin - has actually reached enough power that he's running for office. (he's not specifically an incel, just incel-adjacent. But he is an alt-right atheist)
He's runnig for office, in an already nutcase party, for in a fairly minor election (yes, EU elections are kinda minor(ish), unfortunately).
That said, why is it that atheists are more predominant among incels? (assuming they are, i honestly have no clue if this is true or not) Do religions give proto incels other ways to cope...?
This is probably a good spot to interject something I've been wanting to mention but was reluctant to.
The answer to your bolded question is a resounding yes. I fully recognize and understand that this isn't the path for everyone, but let me just say to the people earlier in the thread who were wrestling with bad things they did in their past, and to those who are struggling to move past emotional hurt done to them, if they'd like to hear: there's a piece of the Episcopal service that always resonates so strongly with me, I've been moved to tears more than once. I'll spoiler for those who prefer avoiding religion.
Some sins are plain to us, some are hidden, some we cannot face. God forgives you - forgive others, forgive yourself.
If you can do this, within the context of faith or some other moral framework, you will not be an incel. I invite all of you who are struggling with your past to take the idea to heart even if the religious part turns you off. It can be your path forward into a more content, less angry, more joyful life.
I am very much an atheist, and while I think organized religion has a great many issues, it does create community. It creates a group of people you regularly see in person, and with whom you share interests and values, and you all sort of work together on being better people, and to some extent you'll find people you can depend on.
That's really important, and it's something I think most americans don't really have anymore. I've found a sort of community which fills the same role, and really would be worse off without it. And you hear a lot of the same sentiments(like forgiveness is a big thing), though normally more framed around the self than a deity.
Also, there's a strong correlation between a lack of community and being vulnerable to falling into cults. On the right-wing side of the aisle, there's a very deep resentment against the "atomization of society" because they feel robbed of that sense of community. Of course, they blame diversity on all it's forms, but that's another consequence of the actual cause, all the jobs going to the cities and the people going there and failing to create new bonds in them.
In his 1995 essay, sociologist Robert Putnam warned of the increasing atomization of American society. The institutions of American social capital, he wrote, are on the decline: Attendance at public forums, religious groups, civic organizations, and even his eponymous bowling leagues have been steadily declining since the the heyday of the 1950s American suburban community. The social fabric of America is coming apart on the neighborhood level, wrote Putnam—and it’s only going to get worse.
Unfortunately, it seems Putnam was on to something. In a report for urbanism think-tank City Observatory, economist Joe Cortright tracks the decline of American social capital over the past 40 years not simply in terms of membership to voluntary organizations, but also through the relationships Americans have with their geographical neighbors. Data used in the report from the General Social Survey doesn’t paint a pretty picture: According to Cortright, the degree to which Americans trust one another is at a 40-year low.
What’s behind this trend? Cortright posits that social capital is on the decline largely because cities are failing to function as "interaction machines" that facilitate community solidarity. He argues that a growing preference for private spaces over the public commons has dramatically affected how Americans socialize. Nowadays, people prefer the quiet of their own homes or of private organizations than the local commons that are meant to be the centerpieces of communities. These growing divisions manifest themselves in stark ways—Cortright mentions the rise of charter schools, gated communities, and other "exclusive" communities like swimming pools—and more subtle ones, like broad economic segregation.
"Our city governments, schools, and communities are more fragmented and less inclusive than in days gone by," Cortright writes. "In many cases—in leisure, entertainment, and schooling—we’ve enabled people to secede from the commons and get a different level and quality of service."
I feel this acutely. There's no place to just... hang out. I feel like American cities strongly discourage loitering, and they feel very lonely as a result. You're either Doing Something, or you're on your way to or from Doing Something. Private spaces are the only places left to just... exist.
edit: removed old draft
why doesn't your city have parks and libraries?
edit: sorry if I'm coming across as glib, I'm failing to find the npr or 99PI piece i was looking for. It was rather specifically about how libraries and parks build social trust by filling this exact role. They provide public open spaces where this exact thing can happen.
I live in Austin. It has a serious commitment to both, and they are well used by the folks here.
Going to a park without your own children is a good way to get treated like a pedophile.
When you get to the level of social isolation where you literally have no friends, going out to meet new people in any way is incredibly overwhelming.
yes, it is. There was a while were I would regularly go for a week or so without speaking to anyone other than counter help. There's most of two decades where I didn't have any physically, or really much of any sort of, intimacy with another human.
It's weird figuring out how wrong you can be about yourself, when you realize in your late 30s that your pretty much a huge extrovert that's mostly been terrified of people.
Going to a park without your own children is a good way to get treated like a pedophile.
While I understand that fear, it hasn't been my actual experience. Then again, I've always had access to parks with hiking/biking paths, disc golf, in places with colleges, or larger metropolitan parks.
Can go to just about anywhere regularly and eventually meet people. I just decided to go play pool at the bar across the street and after a month or so of going by myself regularly I knew the bartenders and a bunch of people that I ended up friends with.
With things like Meetup and stuff there really isn't an excuse beyond low population to not find something to do.
They're not looking for something to do. They want to have sex with Emily Ratajkowski. Not a relationship with that nice girl bowling in the lane next to them.
You don't have social anxiety, do you?
Back around 2012-2014 I started going to the downtown area of a city an hour away from me just to try and socialize. I would always go by myself (all my friends had either moved away or were otherwise busy). Most everyone else there seemed to be with at least one friend, so going up and trying to talk to someone with another group of people already was intimidating (after all, whenever I used to do things with the friends I had no random person ever walked up to try and hang out with us). Usually the most I would do would be to talk to the bartenders I ordered from, look for someone not already occupied to talk to, give up, and drink my beer or whatever while looking on my smartphone.
The last time I went there to try and socialize I started talking to a guy for a while and asked if I could friend him on Facebook. He told me his name, but when it came up with a bunch of people with his name he just said the first result was him (although going by the picture it clearly wasn't). Later that night I managed to try and talk to a woman at another bar. We actually talked well for a while and started doing shots together. I asked if she wanted to go get something to eat at a restaurant nearby, but she said she didn't feel like it and just wanted to stay there. I though to myself "maybe she doesn't trust me enough to want to go somewhere with me" and asked "I'm not bothering you or making you uncomfortable, am I?" She replied no. I also didn't want her to think I was just trying to get her drunk to take advantage of her, so whenever she ordered another drink I ordered the same thing and paid for both of ours. I was also afraid that if I sobered-up I would lose my ability to talk with her calmly, so I kept drinking.
I woke up in the emergency room at a nearby hospital the next morning. Apparently she could handle her drinks better than me, and eventually I had passed out at the bar and she left. The people working there called the police to come and pick me up, and the police officer feared I was suffering from alcohol poisoning so she took me to the hospital. I had to pay an emergency room bill, and later that week I had to voluntarily turn myself into the county jail for public intoxication and disorderly conduct (I only had to stay at the jail for a few hours, thankfully).
I personally don't think my own social anxiety and hang-ups are even as bad as most of these incel types, so if even I had an experience like this I could imagine it going even worse for them. I've managed to get better enough at handling my anxiety that I've been running a Dungeons & Dragons game on Sundays for months now, but I still often get anxious enough that I'm afraid my players will notice ("I feel sweaty, do I look sweaty, I hope I don't" has gone through my mind at the end of a session more than once) and sometimes I put a shot or two of whiskey in the soda I drink during the game to help calm my nerves.
Even if I did want to go to bars again most of the people there were early 20's, whereas I'm 30 now.
Bars have always perplexed me. You go to a place where you're supposed to try to strike up a conversation with a stranger while competing with a bunch of loud people in packed quarters, concert volume music / television, slurred speech, impaired judgment, and frighteningly dangerous stakes on the line that you already need all your wits and crystal clear communication to carefully navigate.
When I was a kid, I understood the pressure - you had a reputation to protect, and smarter people would always bail you out. Now, though, it seems like the exact opposite way I would normally approach a precarious situation.
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Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Bars are a great place to go with people you already know. It is impossible to go to bars often enough to make new friends without doing your liver serious damage.
Can go to just about anywhere regularly and eventually meet people. I just decided to go play pool at the bar across the street and after a month or so of going by myself regularly I knew the bartenders and a bunch of people that I ended up friends with.
With things like Meetup and stuff there really isn't an excuse beyond low population to not find something to do.
They're not looking for something to do. They want to have sex with Emily Ratajkowski. Not a relationship with that nice girl bowling in the lane next to them.
You don't have social anxiety, do you?
Back around 2012-2014 I started going to the downtown area of a city an hour away from me just to try and socialize. I would always go by myself (all my friends had either moved away or were otherwise busy). Most everyone else there seemed to be with at least one friend, so going up and trying to talk to someone with another group of people already was intimidating (after all, whenever I used to do things with the friends I had no random person ever walked up to try and hang out with us). Usually the most I would do would be to talk to the bartenders I ordered from, look for someone not already occupied to talk to, give up, and drink my beer or whatever while looking on my smartphone.
The last time I went there to try and socialize I started talking to a guy for a while and asked if I could friend him on Facebook. He told me his name, but when it came up with a bunch of people with his name he just said the first result was him (although going by the picture it clearly wasn't). Later that night I managed to try and talk to a woman at another bar. We actually talked well for a while and started doing shots together. I asked if she wanted to go get something to eat at a restaurant nearby, but she said she didn't feel like it and just wanted to stay there. I though to myself "maybe she doesn't trust me enough to want to go somewhere with me" and asked "I'm not bothering you or making you uncomfortable, am I?" She replied no. I also didn't want her to think I was just trying to get her drunk to take advantage of her, so whenever she ordered another drink I ordered the same thing and paid for both of ours. I was also afraid that if I sobered-up I would lose my ability to talk with her calmly, so I kept drinking.
I woke up in the emergency room at a nearby hospital the next morning. Apparently she could handle her drinks better than me, and eventually I had passed out at the bar and she left. The people working there called the police to come and pick me up, and the police officer feared I was suffering from alcohol poisoning so she took me to the hospital. I had to pay an emergency room bill, and later that week I had to voluntarily turn myself into the county jail for public intoxication and disorderly conduct (I only had to stay at the jail for a few hours, thankfully).
I personally don't think my own social anxiety and hang-ups are even as bad as most of these incel types, so if even I had an experience like this I could imagine it going even worse for them. I've managed to get better enough at handling my anxiety that I've been running a Dungeons & Dragons game on Sundays for months now, but I still often get anxious enough that I'm afraid my players will notice ("I feel sweaty, do I look sweaty, I hope I don't" has gone through my mind at the end of a session more than once) and sometimes I put a shot or two of whiskey in the soda I drink during the game to help calm my nerves.
Even if I did want to go to bars again most of the people there were early 20's, whereas I'm 30 now.
BTW, who is Emily Ratajkowski???
I wasn't trying to point out it's easy to make friends or meet people. I was saying that there's not really a shortage of places you can go and eventually meet people. The isolation isn't because someone came to town and burned down all the libraries, coffee shops and bowling alleys. It's because there are other factors.
My query from the previous post is because I'm wondering if maybe there are places in rural America where all the normal meeting places are strictly religious or exclusionary, forcing people who are divergent from the attitudes or hobbies in the area to look elsewhere for people who don't shun or mock them - reddit, forums, etc. If incels were all from places where it's been traditionally hard to be non-religious, LGBTQ, mixed ethnicity, etc that would mean there's a need for support for kids and young adults in those areas that has always been a need and we've just been ignoring for 80 years. Inceldom(?) would be an awful but natural progression of a need to belong in areas that have always struggled with that.
Emily Ratajkowski was in the latest Tomb Raider and is constantly showing up in the news for wearing bikinis and promoting a fashion line. She's basically inescapable and by all accounts actually not an awful person but she's not famous and lusted after for her personality. (I am a wrong person, see edit note)
Edit: Bars as a drinking destination that cater to college age kids are really kind of awful. The places to go and just hang out and learn to play pool, billiards or darts that don't play insane music and have 2$ shots are harder to find these days but they do exist. Playing darts/pool/shuffleboard with someone and then asking if they want to split a pitcher isn't all that uncommon in a normal dive bar. In a college bar or country bar with dancing? Probably not going to happen.
Edit2: Corrected on Tomb Raider actress. She's in movies though!
Yeah, I suspect in small American towns in red states, the church is the center of social life outside of school, so a young atheist will have problems making friends and meeting girls.
I dunno about the rest of the midwest, but Minnesota has a fanatic board game scene. Seriously, think of that one scene with Ben Wyatt x1000. The most popular store in the Mall of America is just board games and has like a billion people in it at all times. There are board games in every single bar and people actually play them. You will be a social outcast if you can't hold your own in Catan. Every office party, every life celebration is board games. Seriously, if you want to make it in the midwest, you gotta boardgame
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
edited April 2019
I would think it would be extraordinarily difficult to make new friends at bars or places like that. They're where people go to A) Party with people they already know or Be drunk. Neither is helpful at establishing any kind of new relationship.
My circle of friends that I actually hang out with all the time now are from slowly growing two regular RPG groups. We spend most of our social time gaming, but it's building into just a general group of friends where we hang out and what not. I know people that had success with finding new friends and one of them found their future wife by joining a climbing club. Another joined a hiking club. Another a unicycle club. Figure out an activity that interests you. See if there's any groups around that do that. Go.
Some people may hit it off with others right away, some may take a while, but be nice and don't shut people out and your social circles will grow.
Emily Ratajkowski was in the latest Tomb Raider and is constantly showing up in the news for wearing bikinis and promoting a fashion line. She's basically inescapable and by all accounts actually not an awful person but she's not famous and lusted after for her personality.
Tiny point of order: the actress who was in the latest Tomb Raider was Alicia Vikander (I mostly remember her because she was also in Ex Machina...and I absolutely love Ex Machina) and not Emily Ratajkowski.
And yeah...until cyber-livers are commonplace, trying to be a regular at a bar in order to expand your social circle(s) is likely going to be a truly hazardous and/or expensive (ER visits, as Hex experienced, aren't cheap) endeavor (edit-whoops, need more coffee to avoid dropping key words).
Maybe independent coffee/tea cafes that double as libraries and/or tabletop gaming venues would be a better idea?
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So we all agree these places exist. So it isn't just "there's nowhere to meet people anymore!". It is probably easier or more difficult for different people and maybe easier in some locations.
So we de-platform the aggressive rape condoning misogynist incel movement and it works. The most outspoken of the movement fade from collective memory.
You still have a bunch of people who don't have an appropriate outlet for social bonding and interaction. They'll just find something else that fills the hole, they're probably pretty angry so that leaves them back with joining supremacist groups? Without an outlet or some sort of phase 2, we end up with the same shit with a different name.
Emily Ratajkowski was in the latest Tomb Raider and is constantly showing up in the news for wearing bikinis and promoting a fashion line. She's basically inescapable and by all accounts actually not an awful person but she's not famous and lusted after for her personality.
Tiny point of order: the actress who was in the latest Tomb Raider was Alicia Vikander (I mostly remember her because she was also in Ex Machina...and I absolutely love Ex Machina) and not Emily Ratajkowski.
And yeah...until cyber-livers are commonplace, trying to be a regular at a bar in order to expand your social circle(s) is likely going to be a truly hazardous and/or expensive (ER visits, as Hex experienced, aren't cheap) endeavor (edit-whoops, need more coffee to avoid dropping key words).
Maybe independent coffee/tea cafes that double as libraries and/or tabletop gaming venues would be a better idea?
Yup! There are lots of coffee shops that do game nights and have chess boards and clubs that meet. There are pool halls and bowling alleys and pubs that serve snacks where you don't have to drink at all. I actually used to play pool with a guy who just drank Arnold Palmers (sweet tea and lemonade) all night. I didn't mean to imply the inebriation was a requirement or that you should get shitfaced at some local bar until people recognize you.
If you live in nowhere Kansas though and your choice is the Pizza Hut or hanging out behind the farming supply and feed store with the cool kids or total isolation - an internet community full of people who are also angry at people is tempting.
People have been trying to figure out the "restless/angry young men" thing for centuries, so yes there are other likely bad results. It's not just a one-time simple fix.
Now they have a reason to stay angry young men and never grow into adults. Peter Pan style frozen in time with a miserable unchanging outlook that an entire community encourages them to not change.
They've always existed but now it's a community/movement/hate group.
If you're looking for a reason that socialization is harder, the answer isn't in your community, it's in your pocket. Smartphones provide tenuous and unsatisfying links to distant communities, which are just strong enough to slow the forming of new links. A random friendly person sitting at a bar when you walk in looking for a chat and a beer is now 99% likely to be on their phone.
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
I don't know if I agree with that. I don't think the ubiquity of smart phones has made connecting with people any more or less difficult. Whether or not a stranger is looking at a smart phone has zero effect on my likelihood of speaking to them (0%). Socially awkward people aren't going to initiate conversation most of the time, regardless of what a person is doing.
I don't know if I agree with that. I don't think the ubiquity of smart phones has made connecting with people any more or less difficult. Whether or not a stranger is looking at a smart phone has zero effect on my likelihood of speaking to them (0%). Socially awkward people aren't going to initiate conversation most of the time, regardless of what a person is doing.
It certainly reduces their likelihood of speaking to you. For socially awkward people who have trouble starting conversations as it is, the phone they're staring at is like an impenetrable wall.
I don't know if I agree with that. I don't think the ubiquity of smart phones has made connecting with people any more or less difficult. Whether or not a stranger is looking at a smart phone has zero effect on my likelihood of speaking to them (0%). Socially awkward people aren't going to initiate conversation most of the time, regardless of what a person is doing.
It certainly reduces their likelihood of speaking to you.
I don't know if I agree with that. I don't think the ubiquity of smart phones has made connecting with people any more or less difficult. Whether or not a stranger is looking at a smart phone has zero effect on my likelihood of speaking to them (0%). Socially awkward people aren't going to initiate conversation most of the time, regardless of what a person is doing.
It certainly reduces their likelihood of speaking to you.
So we all agree these places exist. So it isn't just "there's nowhere to meet people anymore!". It is probably easier or more difficult for different people and maybe easier in some locations.
No, that hasn't really been demonstrated at all. Research seems to indicate, from anything I've seen, that we live more isolated lives. These places don't really exist like you are claiming. Like, to use the old school example, physical bowling alleys are still a thing but the thing they did, they place they were in the sense of not just being a location but a social spot, does not.
Stranger danger was an informational campaign that really fucked us up. Turns out if your taught that talking to strangers is inherently dangerous as a child that sticks with you and makes any engagement from strangers to be unsettling well into adulthood.
So we all agree these places exist. So it isn't just "there's nowhere to meet people anymore!". It is probably easier or more difficult for different people and maybe easier in some locations.
No, that hasn't really been demonstrated at all. Research seems to indicate, from anything I've seen, that we live more isolated lives. These places don't really exist like you are claiming. Like, to use the old school example, physical bowling alleys are still a thing but the thing they did, they place they were in the sense of not just being a location but a social spot, does not.
"we live more isolated lives" and "places don't exist anymore to hang out or meet people" aren't the same claim though
If you're looking for a reason that socialization is harder, the answer isn't in your community, it's in your pocket. Smartphones provide tenuous and unsatisfying links to distant communities, which are just strong enough to slow the forming of new links.
I don't know how I feel about this.
It is true that I use my phone to look and post on these forums very often, but I did that before I had a smartphone. I spend so much time looking and posting on these forums despite them not being as emotionally fulfilling as close relationships with other people IRL because most of the people I'm around IRL are not be the kind I'd enjoy spending time with.
People spend a lot of time on their phones and such because they'd rather be with the people they enjoy interacting with online than the ones they have no choice but to be around IRL. These online communities are primarily online because teleportation doesn't exist.
Yeah, I think that if people are more isolated these days it's because they choose to be.
In ye olden times, you had to socialize with the people around you. In person. They were the only people and that was the only way.
It was always difficult and tedious, but it was the way of things and people got used to it.
But the information age and the rise of the internet made it so that the newest generations don't have to do all that shit.
And so many don't.
IF I MAY USE A WORLD OF WARCRAFT ANALOGY. Ahem...
In the early days of WoW, people HAD to cultivate a relationship with their server population. They either put forth "the effort" or quit playing WoW. It was a social game first and foremost.
But nowadays you can basically play WoW as a single-player game. Server merges and the dumbing down of mechanics have rendered the notions of community and co-operation mere "options" rather than mandates. Party members are just faces you've never seen before and will never see again. No one speaks. Trade skills suck ass and most trades are handled autonomously through the auction house. You don't need to know a guy who knows a guy.
All very good and convenient quality-of-life improvements for the average player, BUT... it does erode the sense of "community".
"Choice" does not exist in a vacuum. How we structure modern life influences how people act.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I would NEVER go to a bar to make friends. It's just not my scene for a multitude of reasons. If I wanted to make friends, I would definitely try to find a local D'n'D group. Best thing about them is that there are already likely to be several awkward, socially-anxious people in those groups, so I've no need to feel like I'm the only one whose not good with people.
Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
On my sleeve, let the runway start
I don't see much of a need to make real life friends when I get all the best parts over the internet
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I'm an atheist and I think a lot of the online criticism of atheists is really unfair (especially the US' treatment of atheists, even from purportedly progressive and accepting people, on this very forum on fact!), and I don't think it's fair to say that there's really a massive connection between atheism and incels, any more than I'd blame "religion" for the ills of Evangelical Christians.
I don't think it's a thing like, "all atheists are incels", that would be a bullshit thing to say. My husband is an atheist and he is not an incel. But I do think it's fair to say that a large contingent of the visible incel world - that which exists online - is strongly atheist, just as I would say a large contingent of the homophobic world is Christian. Angry, regressive, non-intellectual atheists have been ranting online more and more frequently in the last decade, they have definitely become a "thing." Hell, Sargon of Akkad - aka Carl Benjamin - has actually reached enough power that he's running for office. (he's not specifically an incel, just incel-adjacent. But he is an alt-right atheist)
He's runnig for office, in an already nutcase party, for in a fairly minor election (yes, EU elections are kinda minor(ish), unfortunately).
That said, why is it that atheists are more predominant among incels? (assuming they are, i honestly have no clue if this is true or not) Do religions give proto incels other ways to cope...?
This is probably a good spot to interject something I've been wanting to mention but was reluctant to.
The answer to your bolded question is a resounding yes. I fully recognize and understand that this isn't the path for everyone, but let me just say to the people earlier in the thread who were wrestling with bad things they did in their past, and to those who are struggling to move past emotional hurt done to them, if they'd like to hear: there's a piece of the Episcopal service that always resonates so strongly with me, I've been moved to tears more than once. I'll spoiler for those who prefer avoiding religion.
Some sins are plain to us, some are hidden, some we cannot face. God forgives you - forgive others, forgive yourself.
If you can do this, within the context of faith or some other moral framework, you will not be an incel. I invite all of you who are struggling with your past to take the idea to heart even if the religious part turns you off. It can be your path forward into a more content, less angry, more joyful life.
I am very much an atheist, and while I think organized religion has a great many issues, it does create community. It creates a group of people you regularly see in person, and with whom you share interests and values, and you all sort of work together on being better people, and to some extent you'll find people you can depend on.
That's really important, and it's something I think most americans don't really have anymore. I've found a sort of community which fills the same role, and really would be worse off without it. And you hear a lot of the same sentiments(like forgiveness is a big thing), though normally more framed around the self than a deity.
Also, there's a strong correlation between a lack of community and being vulnerable to falling into cults. On the right-wing side of the aisle, there's a very deep resentment against the "atomization of society" because they feel robbed of that sense of community. Of course, they blame diversity on all it's forms, but that's another consequence of the actual cause, all the jobs going to the cities and the people going there and failing to create new bonds in them.
In his 1995 essay, sociologist Robert Putnam warned of the increasing atomization of American society. The institutions of American social capital, he wrote, are on the decline: Attendance at public forums, religious groups, civic organizations, and even his eponymous bowling leagues have been steadily declining since the the heyday of the 1950s American suburban community. The social fabric of America is coming apart on the neighborhood level, wrote Putnam—and it’s only going to get worse.
Unfortunately, it seems Putnam was on to something. In a report for urbanism think-tank City Observatory, economist Joe Cortright tracks the decline of American social capital over the past 40 years not simply in terms of membership to voluntary organizations, but also through the relationships Americans have with their geographical neighbors. Data used in the report from the General Social Survey doesn’t paint a pretty picture: According to Cortright, the degree to which Americans trust one another is at a 40-year low.
What’s behind this trend? Cortright posits that social capital is on the decline largely because cities are failing to function as "interaction machines" that facilitate community solidarity. He argues that a growing preference for private spaces over the public commons has dramatically affected how Americans socialize. Nowadays, people prefer the quiet of their own homes or of private organizations than the local commons that are meant to be the centerpieces of communities. These growing divisions manifest themselves in stark ways—Cortright mentions the rise of charter schools, gated communities, and other "exclusive" communities like swimming pools—and more subtle ones, like broad economic segregation.
"Our city governments, schools, and communities are more fragmented and less inclusive than in days gone by," Cortright writes. "In many cases—in leisure, entertainment, and schooling—we’ve enabled people to secede from the commons and get a different level and quality of service."
I feel this acutely. There's no place to just... hang out. I feel like American cities strongly discourage loitering, and they feel very lonely as a result. You're either Doing Something, or you're on your way to or from Doing Something. Private spaces are the only places left to just... exist.
edit: removed old draft
why doesn't your city have parks and libraries?
edit: sorry if I'm coming across as glib, I'm failing to find the npr or 99PI piece i was looking for. It was rather specifically about how libraries and parks build social trust by filling this exact role. They provide public open spaces where this exact thing can happen.
I live in Austin. It has a serious commitment to both, and they are well used by the folks here.
I've never seen anyone other than kids and their parents in the parks, and the library isn't set up for interacting with people. You're kind of SOL here if you don't like bars.
Meetups are great for finding people to Do A Thing with, which was kind of my point.
I meet people in bars and go to parties and such all the time, personally, and I'd never say that it's a good way to meet people in general unless you're really naturally good at that sort of thing, in which case no problem.
D&D, Wargaming, board games, these are all good ways to meet new friends and social circles.
D&D, Wargaming, board games, these are all good ways to meet new friends and social circles.
Assuming you can find a place to do those things in your area.
How to meet people and make friends is extremely situational, depending both on location, and people involved.
And telling someone that "it's easy" is unhelpful, because it is not true.
Because if the person in question had easy time to make friends, they probably already would have.
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When you get to the level of social isolation where you literally have no friends, going out to meet new people in any way is incredibly overwhelming.
I have hordes of friends and it still terrifies me.
Going to a park without your own children is a good way to get treated like a pedophile.
yes, it is. There was a while were I would regularly go for a week or so without speaking to anyone other than counter help. There's most of two decades where I didn't have any physically, or really much of any sort of, intimacy with another human.
It's weird figuring out how wrong you can be about yourself, when you realize in your late 30s that your pretty much a huge extrovert that's mostly been terrified of people.
While I understand that fear, it hasn't been my actual experience. Then again, I've always had access to parks with hiking/biking paths, disc golf, in places with colleges, or larger metropolitan parks.
You don't have social anxiety, do you?
Back around 2012-2014 I started going to the downtown area of a city an hour away from me just to try and socialize. I would always go by myself (all my friends had either moved away or were otherwise busy). Most everyone else there seemed to be with at least one friend, so going up and trying to talk to someone with another group of people already was intimidating (after all, whenever I used to do things with the friends I had no random person ever walked up to try and hang out with us). Usually the most I would do would be to talk to the bartenders I ordered from, look for someone not already occupied to talk to, give up, and drink my beer or whatever while looking on my smartphone.
The last time I went there to try and socialize I started talking to a guy for a while and asked if I could friend him on Facebook. He told me his name, but when it came up with a bunch of people with his name he just said the first result was him (although going by the picture it clearly wasn't). Later that night I managed to try and talk to a woman at another bar. We actually talked well for a while and started doing shots together. I asked if she wanted to go get something to eat at a restaurant nearby, but she said she didn't feel like it and just wanted to stay there. I though to myself "maybe she doesn't trust me enough to want to go somewhere with me" and asked "I'm not bothering you or making you uncomfortable, am I?" She replied no. I also didn't want her to think I was just trying to get her drunk to take advantage of her, so whenever she ordered another drink I ordered the same thing and paid for both of ours. I was also afraid that if I sobered-up I would lose my ability to talk with her calmly, so I kept drinking.
I woke up in the emergency room at a nearby hospital the next morning. Apparently she could handle her drinks better than me, and eventually I had passed out at the bar and she left. The people working there called the police to come and pick me up, and the police officer feared I was suffering from alcohol poisoning so she took me to the hospital. I had to pay an emergency room bill, and later that week I had to voluntarily turn myself into the county jail for public intoxication and disorderly conduct (I only had to stay at the jail for a few hours, thankfully).
I personally don't think my own social anxiety and hang-ups are even as bad as most of these incel types, so if even I had an experience like this I could imagine it going even worse for them. I've managed to get better enough at handling my anxiety that I've been running a Dungeons & Dragons game on Sundays for months now, but I still often get anxious enough that I'm afraid my players will notice ("I feel sweaty, do I look sweaty, I hope I don't" has gone through my mind at the end of a session more than once) and sometimes I put a shot or two of whiskey in the soda I drink during the game to help calm my nerves.
Even if I did want to go to bars again most of the people there were early 20's, whereas I'm 30 now.
BTW, who is Emily Ratajkowski???
When I was a kid, I understood the pressure - you had a reputation to protect, and smarter people would always bail you out. Now, though, it seems like the exact opposite way I would normally approach a precarious situation.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I wasn't trying to point out it's easy to make friends or meet people. I was saying that there's not really a shortage of places you can go and eventually meet people. The isolation isn't because someone came to town and burned down all the libraries, coffee shops and bowling alleys. It's because there are other factors.
My query from the previous post is because I'm wondering if maybe there are places in rural America where all the normal meeting places are strictly religious or exclusionary, forcing people who are divergent from the attitudes or hobbies in the area to look elsewhere for people who don't shun or mock them - reddit, forums, etc. If incels were all from places where it's been traditionally hard to be non-religious, LGBTQ, mixed ethnicity, etc that would mean there's a need for support for kids and young adults in those areas that has always been a need and we've just been ignoring for 80 years. Inceldom(?) would be an awful but natural progression of a need to belong in areas that have always struggled with that.
Emily Ratajkowski was in the latest Tomb Raider and is constantly showing up in the news for wearing bikinis and promoting a fashion line. She's basically inescapable and by all accounts actually not an awful person but she's not famous and lusted after for her personality. (I am a wrong person, see edit note)
Edit: Bars as a drinking destination that cater to college age kids are really kind of awful. The places to go and just hang out and learn to play pool, billiards or darts that don't play insane music and have 2$ shots are harder to find these days but they do exist. Playing darts/pool/shuffleboard with someone and then asking if they want to split a pitcher isn't all that uncommon in a normal dive bar. In a college bar or country bar with dancing? Probably not going to happen.
Edit2: Corrected on Tomb Raider actress. She's in movies though!
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
My circle of friends that I actually hang out with all the time now are from slowly growing two regular RPG groups. We spend most of our social time gaming, but it's building into just a general group of friends where we hang out and what not. I know people that had success with finding new friends and one of them found their future wife by joining a climbing club. Another joined a hiking club. Another a unicycle club. Figure out an activity that interests you. See if there's any groups around that do that. Go.
Some people may hit it off with others right away, some may take a while, but be nice and don't shut people out and your social circles will grow.
Tiny point of order: the actress who was in the latest Tomb Raider was Alicia Vikander (I mostly remember her because she was also in Ex Machina...and I absolutely love Ex Machina) and not Emily Ratajkowski.
And yeah...until cyber-livers are commonplace, trying to be a regular at a bar in order to expand your social circle(s) is likely going to be a truly hazardous and/or expensive (ER visits, as Hex experienced, aren't cheap) endeavor (edit-whoops, need more coffee to avoid dropping key words).
Maybe independent coffee/tea cafes that double as libraries and/or tabletop gaming venues would be a better idea?
So we de-platform the aggressive rape condoning misogynist incel movement and it works. The most outspoken of the movement fade from collective memory.
You still have a bunch of people who don't have an appropriate outlet for social bonding and interaction. They'll just find something else that fills the hole, they're probably pretty angry so that leaves them back with joining supremacist groups? Without an outlet or some sort of phase 2, we end up with the same shit with a different name.
Yup! There are lots of coffee shops that do game nights and have chess boards and clubs that meet. There are pool halls and bowling alleys and pubs that serve snacks where you don't have to drink at all. I actually used to play pool with a guy who just drank Arnold Palmers (sweet tea and lemonade) all night. I didn't mean to imply the inebriation was a requirement or that you should get shitfaced at some local bar until people recognize you.
If you live in nowhere Kansas though and your choice is the Pizza Hut or hanging out behind the farming supply and feed store with the cool kids or total isolation - an internet community full of people who are also angry at people is tempting.
They've always existed but now it's a community/movement/hate group.
It certainly reduces their likelihood of speaking to you. For socially awkward people who have trouble starting conversations as it is, the phone they're staring at is like an impenetrable wall.
God it's so great.
And my hypothesis is proven conclusively.
No, that hasn't really been demonstrated at all. Research seems to indicate, from anything I've seen, that we live more isolated lives. These places don't really exist like you are claiming. Like, to use the old school example, physical bowling alleys are still a thing but the thing they did, they place they were in the sense of not just being a location but a social spot, does not.
"we live more isolated lives" and "places don't exist anymore to hang out or meet people" aren't the same claim though
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
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I don't know how I feel about this.
It is true that I use my phone to look and post on these forums very often, but I did that before I had a smartphone. I spend so much time looking and posting on these forums despite them not being as emotionally fulfilling as close relationships with other people IRL because most of the people I'm around IRL are not be the kind I'd enjoy spending time with.
People spend a lot of time on their phones and such because they'd rather be with the people they enjoy interacting with online than the ones they have no choice but to be around IRL. These online communities are primarily online because teleportation doesn't exist.
In ye olden times, you had to socialize with the people around you. In person. They were the only people and that was the only way.
It was always difficult and tedious, but it was the way of things and people got used to it.
But the information age and the rise of the internet made it so that the newest generations don't have to do all that shit.
And so many don't.
IF I MAY USE A WORLD OF WARCRAFT ANALOGY. Ahem...
In the early days of WoW, people HAD to cultivate a relationship with their server population. They either put forth "the effort" or quit playing WoW. It was a social game first and foremost.
But nowadays you can basically play WoW as a single-player game. Server merges and the dumbing down of mechanics have rendered the notions of community and co-operation mere "options" rather than mandates. Party members are just faces you've never seen before and will never see again. No one speaks. Trade skills suck ass and most trades are handled autonomously through the auction house. You don't need to know a guy who knows a guy.
All very good and convenient quality-of-life improvements for the average player, BUT... it does erode the sense of "community".
On my sleeve, let the runway start
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I've never seen anyone other than kids and their parents in the parks, and the library isn't set up for interacting with people. You're kind of SOL here if you don't like bars.
Meetups are great for finding people to Do A Thing with, which was kind of my point.
If you can stand sports, and crowds.
There are definitely no crowds. Fair point on the sports.
More than 5 people?
It's a crowd.
D&D, Wargaming, board games, these are all good ways to meet new friends and social circles.
1) Overuse of pornography
2) Little to no social friendship group
I think those are probably pretty key.
How to meet people and make friends is extremely situational, depending both on location, and people involved.
And telling someone that "it's easy" is unhelpful, because it is not true.
Because if the person in question had easy time to make friends, they probably already would have.