I think Trump has a reasonable path to victory under Warren and Sanders as well.
Warren's polling with minorities hasnt been great, i worry about her campaigning style against Trump's, and I suspect she's going tonstruggle appealing to people outside the white educated center-left, which incidentally makes is the demographic here by and large.
Sanders I think campaigns the best against Trump. He can meet him on populism. But a fairly large amount if the base will not accept him for a variety of reasons. Maybe he can make up for that with new voters? My bigger concern is that if Sanders wins capital is going to view it as a 5 alarm fire and there will be an overwhelming amount of money against him.
I mean, Obama's polling with minorities was also not great, until it was. It's a problem she needs to fix but isn't insurmountable.
And again, financial people hate Sanders' policies, but they think Warren is more likely to win, so are afraid of her.
Nah, I think there's no reason to try and explain around it. They hate Warren because going after the finance industry is something she's been doing for decades now. Back to when she was mostly just into bankruptcy. There's a reason she's the one who came up with the CFPB and why they did everything they could to keep her from running the thing. There's a reason she's got bones to pick with Biden.
How does someone tell the difference between a serious piece of legislation and one that’s just “value signaling”?
Do you think Sanders seriously thought his finance bill would pass?
I don’t think many of the bills Sanders proposes would actually pass, but that’s just my opinion.
It also has nothing to do with how we’re supposed to tell the difference here. Unless you think it’s a good position for Sanders to take where if you look at a particularly dramatic piece of legislation you’re not out of bounds saying “well this one is so out there he clearly isn’t serious about it”.
I mean y'all fucking loved HR1 and knew full well it was there to show people what Democrats wanted and had no real chance of passing.
We could just not play this game.
HR1 has no chance of passing because the Senate would never allow it. If the members of the House who endorsed it suddenly did a 180 and said “wait, no I didn’t actually mean that vote for real” people would rightfully be pissed off at them for it.
It is kinda hilarious seeing the switch from defending Warren’s Republican past to some people tripping over themselves to do the “he’s not actually a Democrat and blah blah” dance. People care about stupid bullshit when they want to care about stupid bullshit, and they don’t have the slightest embarrassment about it.
Warren became a Democrat in 1996, Bernie still hasn’t:
Bernie Sanders filed Monday to be a candidate for the Senate in 2024 — as an independent.
But last month, Sanders filed as a Democrat for president.
It is kinda hilarious seeing the switch from defending Warren’s Republican past to some people tripping over themselves to do the “he’s not actually a Democrat and blah blah” dance. People care about stupid bullshit when they want to care about stupid bullshit, and they don’t have the slightest embarrassment about it.
Sanders isn’t a Democrat right now
This is some false equivalence bull
sanders has been consistent in not joining any parties that vocally supported ronald reagan
I mean y'all fucking loved HR1 and knew full well it was there to show people what Democrats wanted and had no real chance of passing.
We could just not play this game.
HR1 has no chance of passing because the Senate would never allow it. If the members of the House who endorsed it suddenly did a 180 and said “wait, no I didn’t actually mean that vote for real” people would rightfully be pissed off at them for it.
At least I would.
So youre entirely in favor of symbolic legislation that had no chance of ever passing so long as its also completely practical and ready to impliment as is?
Idk this seems like criticism calvinball
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I mean y'all fucking loved HR1 and knew full well it was there to show people what Democrats wanted and had no real chance of passing.
We could just not play this game.
HR1 has no chance of passing because the Senate would never allow it. If the members of the House who endorsed it suddenly did a 180 and said “wait, no I didn’t actually mean that vote for real” people would rightfully be pissed off at them for it.
At least I would.
So youre entirely in favor of symbolic legislation that had no chance of ever passing so long as its also completely practical and ready to impliment as is?
Idk this seems like criticism calvinball
You don't comprehend the difference between legislation that won't work, and legislation that is blocked because it would work?
This is all a big stretch to find reasons to dislike a candidate
If the deepest darkest thing you can find about Warren or Sanders is that they haven’t always been a big D Democrat you’re not really looking at things that matter outside of the DC bubble
Both politicians have done stuff that is more important and worthy of a critical eye than the banner they fly
I mean y'all fucking loved HR1 and knew full well it was there to show people what Democrats wanted and had no real chance of passing.
We could just not play this game.
HR1 has no chance of passing because the Senate would never allow it. If the members of the House who endorsed it suddenly did a 180 and said “wait, no I didn’t actually mean that vote for real” people would rightfully be pissed off at them for it.
At least I would.
So youre entirely in favor of symbolic legislation that had no chance of ever passing so long as its also completely practical and ready to impliment as is?
Idk this seems like criticism calvinball
Why shouldn’t people look at Bernie’s plan for healthcare in exactly the same “symbolic legislation” light that you outline here as they are supposed to with HR1?
I mean y'all fucking loved HR1 and knew full well it was there to show people what Democrats wanted and had no real chance of passing.
We could just not play this game.
HR1 has no chance of passing because the Senate would never allow it. If the members of the House who endorsed it suddenly did a 180 and said “wait, no I didn’t actually mean that vote for real” people would rightfully be pissed off at them for it.
At least I would.
So youre entirely in favor of symbolic legislation that had no chance of ever passing so long as its also completely practical and ready to impliment as is?
Idk this seems like criticism calvinball
You don't comprehend the difference between legislation that won't work, and legislation that is blocked because it would work?
Neither were intended to pass, only to signal values. This is fine and good.
No it isn't, vacant legislation who's only propose is to get bonafides is bullshit. Especially when the thing you're trying to use to fill out your resume is poorly crafted. If you're doing a project to prove who you are, maybe put some fuckin effort into it, and actually prove your legislative bonafides rather than simply trying to prove useless ideological purity.
I will say the narrative of bernie as an ungrateful outsider who steals democratic lunch money does only make me like him more, because respecting the democratic party is for nerds
The complaints that Sanders is a yelly man who yells a lot are kind of baffling in the face of the adulation Beto received for saying fuck a couple times.
if only there was a bit more adulation. Arguing about whether or not Bernie should be a Democrat is very much an argument about whether or not Bernie should start being honest about his establishment credentials.
Because he's establishment as fuck. He's not actually a yelly old man who yells a lot and wants revolution - he's an establishment figure who profits politically from being able to stand on a fringe that cannot and will not break free of the main party. Without the party to be fringey around, he's at sea and largely irrelevant.
I've said before and I'm definitely advocating for my own preference here, but Beto is your actual counterculture 'shake up the status quo' figure.
Tbf I'm already tired of the unbridled cynicism of the repetitive "this candidate isn't perfect so they're bad for this country" bad faith arguments.
Every viable Democratic candidate is so many miles better than the current situation that it's going to be super important to remember to support whoever comes out of this.
Biden is the safe moderate candidate who is sketchy on progressive policy, who is playing up a "return to sanity" from Obama. He's probably my least favorite Dem option, but as we've seen from Trump, surrounding yourself with competent people is arguably more important than being competent yourself. He's a good figurehead as long as you don't overextend him.
Sanders is the progressive socialist candidate who has the name recognition and may be the second "safest" candidate in the field. He's got ideas more so than plans, and he has a sect of followers that were pretty intolerable in 2016, and hopefully if he doesn't win this year, the supporters won't try to torpedo the winning candidate. He talks like he's upset with the current norms, but who isn't? If he does win, he'll push as much a progressive agenda as possible
Warren has a plan for everything, because she's incredibly detailed and her teaching background has her prepared beyond reasonable. She was a Republican 25 years ago, but isn't and hasn't been at any point in her political career. Calling her a plant is just gross, imo, on some level. She's had the most uphill battle to the presidency from the start and is the only candidate who seems to be picking up steam, and I can only hope if she wins the nomination she'd get the support she needs to take down Trump, because she'll be fighting with a built in handicap that Clinton couldn't overcome.
I will say the narrative of bernie as an ungrateful outsider who steals democratic lunch money does only make me like him more, because respecting the democratic party is for nerds
He went to Mississippi to try to shine a spotlight on the recent raids by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. He went to a gun show in Arkansas. He went to Oklahoma to go to the 1995 bombing memorial and the site of a 1921 race riot and talked about “white nationalism” and “domestic terrorism.” Even at pit stops in more expected locales, O’Rourke acted in ways that were suddenly, strikingly, even dangerously unstandard. At historically black Benedict College in South Carolina, for instance, his campaign booted a reporter from far-right Breitbart News.
...
"[Politico reporter asks] ...I am interested in the idea that you’ve sort of entered this, like, ‘fuck-it phase’ of your campaign.” I wondered if that were an accurate read.
“Yeah,” he said.
“I am trying my best to be as honest and direct as possible, and when asked a question, or thinking through a given issue, to make sure that it is as candid a response as I can possibly produce, in part because I think I realize that our rhetoric, our politics, the scripts we as politicians, the talking points we as politicians, have been using have been completely insufficient to the challenges that we face,” he said. “The demands that we have in this country, I think, necessitate, you know, a different kind of politics, and a much more honest, transparent way of discussing these issues.”
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
I mean y'all fucking loved HR1 and knew full well it was there to show people what Democrats wanted and had no real chance of passing.
We could just not play this game.
Bernie’s “Too Big to Fail” bill is like three pages long. It just says “make a list of banks that are too big. Then break them up.” If it actually passed it would require ton of work figuring out how to do what it says to do.
HR1 is a long detailed list of democratic reforms. The first item on the list is that every state has to make voter registration available on the internet. It specifies that the state has to provide a receipt of application and then within 7 days, provide response as to the disposition of the application. It has the number 7 in it. There was presumably a meeting where they discussed what the number would be and they decided on 7.
If you passed HR1 all of those reforms would happen. It is not a vague statement of purpose, like Bernie’s bill. It is legislation.
I will say the narrative of bernie as an ungrateful outsider who steals democratic lunch money does only make me like him more, because respecting the democratic party is for nerds
Totally normal way to portray a jew too
I think -Tal was using the words "lunch money" as a way to say that Bernie is cheeky rather than using antisemitic stereotypes.
This is all a big stretch to find reasons to dislike a candidate
If the deepest darkest thing you can find about Warren or Sanders is that they haven’t always been a big D Democrat you’re not really looking at things that matter outside of the DC bubble
Both politicians have done stuff that is more important and worthy of a critical eye than the banner they fly
Both of them not being lifelong Democrats Is going to matter exactly as much as Trump not being a lifelong Republican if they make it to the general. Warrens story even might help her with swing voters (I didn't leave the Republican Party, the Republican Party left me). Hell Bernie's too, branding as the bigger outsider.
At the end of the day if either of those facts is effecting who you currently support, your priorities suck.
The thing that bothers me about Bernie not playing ball is that I hate this idea in my head that come November 4th, 2020 I'm not going to put him aside as one of the reasons we lost by a fucking razors edge. Again.
The DNC shouldn't get to pick it's nominee, that is and should be up to us. But as goes the party in 2020, so goes the country and if he can't swallow a spoonful of bullshit if the time comes then thanks a lot buddy, hope you get to live in workers paradise while people here are living in camps.
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
My primary issue with Bernie is when he gets asked how he intends to accomplish something and his response is "the people will rise up and demand it." That's not a plan, bud. He's real good at telling me why things suck but he's not great at telling me how he's going to fix it.
My primary issue with Bernie is when he gets asked how he intends to accomplish something and his response is "the people will rise up and demand it." That's not a plan, bud. He's real good at telling me why things suck but he's not great at telling me how he's going to fix it.
Has he ever said something so dumb? Is there a link?
Yeah "Bernie isnt a democrat" is going to be a fart in a high wind for voters.
It matters for primary voters. But it's a stupid issue. He's got a lot in common with Democrats (about 90% of things) and nothing in common with Republicans.
Yeah "Bernie isnt a democrat" is going to be a fart in a high wind for voters.
It matters for primary voters. But it's a stupid issue. He's got a lot in common with Democrats (about 90% of things) and nothing in common with Republicans.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but doing this would be objectively bad for the country. I'm already expecting Gabbard to run independently to pull some votes away from the Dem candidate.
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Do you think Sanders seriously thought his finance bill would pass?
Nah, I think there's no reason to try and explain around it. They hate Warren because going after the finance industry is something she's been doing for decades now. Back to when she was mostly just into bankruptcy. There's a reason she's the one who came up with the CFPB and why they did everything they could to keep her from running the thing. There's a reason she's got bones to pick with Biden.
We could just not play this game.
I don’t think many of the bills Sanders proposes would actually pass, but that’s just my opinion.
It also has nothing to do with how we’re supposed to tell the difference here. Unless you think it’s a good position for Sanders to take where if you look at a particularly dramatic piece of legislation you’re not out of bounds saying “well this one is so out there he clearly isn’t serious about it”.
HR1 has no chance of passing because the Senate would never allow it. If the members of the House who endorsed it suddenly did a 180 and said “wait, no I didn’t actually mean that vote for real” people would rightfully be pissed off at them for it.
At least I would.
I looked at the link and it doesn’t tell me when Bernie stopped being a registered Republican. I’ll have to do more research to find out.
So youre entirely in favor of symbolic legislation that had no chance of ever passing so long as its also completely practical and ready to impliment as is?
Idk this seems like criticism calvinball
You don't comprehend the difference between legislation that won't work, and legislation that is blocked because it would work?
If the deepest darkest thing you can find about Warren or Sanders is that they haven’t always been a big D Democrat you’re not really looking at things that matter outside of the DC bubble
Both politicians have done stuff that is more important and worthy of a critical eye than the banner they fly
Why shouldn’t people look at Bernie’s plan for healthcare in exactly the same “symbolic legislation” light that you outline here as they are supposed to with HR1?
Neither were intended to pass, only to signal values. This is fine and good.
if only there was a bit more adulation. Arguing about whether or not Bernie should be a Democrat is very much an argument about whether or not Bernie should start being honest about his establishment credentials.
Because he's establishment as fuck. He's not actually a yelly old man who yells a lot and wants revolution - he's an establishment figure who profits politically from being able to stand on a fringe that cannot and will not break free of the main party. Without the party to be fringey around, he's at sea and largely irrelevant.
I've said before and I'm definitely advocating for my own preference here, but Beto is your actual counterculture 'shake up the status quo' figure.
Every viable Democratic candidate is so many miles better than the current situation that it's going to be super important to remember to support whoever comes out of this.
Biden is the safe moderate candidate who is sketchy on progressive policy, who is playing up a "return to sanity" from Obama. He's probably my least favorite Dem option, but as we've seen from Trump, surrounding yourself with competent people is arguably more important than being competent yourself. He's a good figurehead as long as you don't overextend him.
Sanders is the progressive socialist candidate who has the name recognition and may be the second "safest" candidate in the field. He's got ideas more so than plans, and he has a sect of followers that were pretty intolerable in 2016, and hopefully if he doesn't win this year, the supporters won't try to torpedo the winning candidate. He talks like he's upset with the current norms, but who isn't? If he does win, he'll push as much a progressive agenda as possible
Warren has a plan for everything, because she's incredibly detailed and her teaching background has her prepared beyond reasonable. She was a Republican 25 years ago, but isn't and hasn't been at any point in her political career. Calling her a plant is just gross, imo, on some level. She's had the most uphill battle to the presidency from the start and is the only candidate who seems to be picking up steam, and I can only hope if she wins the nomination she'd get the support she needs to take down Trump, because she'll be fighting with a built in handicap that Clinton couldn't overcome.
Totally normal way to portray a jew too
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/10/beto-orourke-campaign-2020-carefree-228047
Bernie’s “Too Big to Fail” bill is like three pages long. It just says “make a list of banks that are too big. Then break them up.” If it actually passed it would require ton of work figuring out how to do what it says to do.
HR1 is a long detailed list of democratic reforms. The first item on the list is that every state has to make voter registration available on the internet. It specifies that the state has to provide a receipt of application and then within 7 days, provide response as to the disposition of the application. It has the number 7 in it. There was presumably a meeting where they discussed what the number would be and they decided on 7.
If you passed HR1 all of those reforms would happen. It is not a vague statement of purpose, like Bernie’s bill. It is legislation.
I think -Tal was using the words "lunch money" as a way to say that Bernie is cheeky rather than using antisemitic stereotypes.
Both of them not being lifelong Democrats Is going to matter exactly as much as Trump not being a lifelong Republican if they make it to the general. Warrens story even might help her with swing voters (I didn't leave the Republican Party, the Republican Party left me). Hell Bernie's too, branding as the bigger outsider.
At the end of the day if either of those facts is effecting who you currently support, your priorities suck.
The thing that bothers me about Bernie not playing ball is that I hate this idea in my head that come November 4th, 2020 I'm not going to put him aside as one of the reasons we lost by a fucking razors edge. Again.
The DNC shouldn't get to pick it's nominee, that is and should be up to us. But as goes the party in 2020, so goes the country and if he can't swallow a spoonful of bullshit if the time comes then thanks a lot buddy, hope you get to live in workers paradise while people here are living in camps.
Has he ever said something so dumb? Is there a link?
It matters for primary voters. But it's a stupid issue. He's got a lot in common with Democrats (about 90% of things) and nothing in common with Republicans.
Is there polling on this?
maybe... he just is
Someone find this man a table!
Its not cool to use bad language spool
No politician has ever been cool, it is an inherently uncool profession
It would be a great way to ensure he never becomes President.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but doing this would be objectively bad for the country. I'm already expecting Gabbard to run independently to pull some votes away from the Dem candidate.
I've been convinced by you guys. Bernie should run independent.
Bernie shouldn't run anywhere tbh, he'll break a hip.