Until the point companies just start with the censored version because it's cheaper that way than to make 2 versions. That's the inevitable conclusion with the current global market, so yeah, it's a big deal.
Reading through the mostly pro-bread comments on that reddit post gets me this:
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
itemisation was fixed both for its own sake and the sake of solving a problem that the skill system should have solved, but could not. both can be (and were) true simultaneously
I dont think what they did was fix itemization at all. It was a band aide and had its own problems as well. Problems with longevity. Problems with the balancing. There were and still are people who dislike Ancient and Primal as a method to, rather hamfisted way, introduce the old rarity style back into the game.
To me and many others it was the death of the game. Loot 2.0.
itemisation was fixed both for its own sake and the sake of solving a problem that the skill system should have solved, but could not. both can be (and were) true simultaneously
But there's no reason to think the skill system was a problem that needed solving by itemization and they never really changed it around drastically in any way that reflected the idea that it was (in their minds) a problem for the game. Maybe you don't like the skill system personally, but there's nothing to suggest that it was seen as a problem. Whereas the itemization system and the grinds to engage with it there pretty clearly is and they spent a lot of time and resources changing the game to deal with them.
Why should the skill system have solved the problem itemization changes fixed? What even was the problem?
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited October 2019
The skill system in D3 was a major factor for me moving on over to other pastures.
The way it's set up means there's no customization, just pick the 1-2 Best In Slot options for Every Single Build in This Class. Also, D3's damage model was probably the biggest thing making their Skill system be so subpar, and contributed a lot to the tiny number of builds available: You didn't make a build around a damage type, the damage type was incidental at best.
D3 was streamlined to the point where it was no longer enjoyable as a long term game like D2.
In all honesty we shouldnt be talking about D4. Diablo 3 should have been Diablo's WoW with constant updates and engine updates over time. The game is the smoothest playing arpg ever really. They just could not find a way to properly transition the game. And so we were left with a uninventive skill system of which they tried to patch in old style grinding in with Paragon. And then they realized that just handing people everything in the game, with its basic skill system, was not a great idea and so they tried to introduce it back with ilvld rarer gear (ancient, primal) but by then it was dead.
In the end we will see how it goes. I hope they can give us something better in this next iteration.
I like D3's skills and runes way better than D2's boring tree.
In D2 it very rarely feels like you gain anything when you level up, except in a few milestone cases. Usually it's just like "woo, another 0.5%". The classic WoW talent tree and the D2 talent tree only give the illusion of choice. They aren't better systems. They just add a meaningless button to click each level that gets you some paltry passive value.
I'm firmly in the camp of people who likes WoW's current talent system and D3's Skills/Runes system much better, because at least the choices feel meaningful.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
In all honesty we shouldnt be talking about D4. Diablo 3 should have been Diablo's WoW with constant updates and engine updates over time. The game is the smoothest playing arpg ever really. They just could not find a way to properly transition the game. And so we were left with a uninventive skill system of which they tried to patch in old style grinding in with Paragon. And then they realized that just handing people everything in the game, with its basic skill system, was not a great idea and so they tried to introduce it back with ilvld rarer gear (ancient, primal) but by then it was dead.
In the end we will see how it goes. I hope they can give us something better in this next iteration.
I dunno how they can come up with something like PoE's skill gems, which to this day I find to be the best implementation of a skill system. It allows a lot of flexibility but also, changing things can cost you a ton of resources if it's high level (think recoloring a STR/DEX item to 4 blues, for instance).
Definitely not a "Here's 5 options, just pick whatver."
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I like D3's skills and runes way better than D2's boring tree.
In D2 it very rarely feels like you gain anything when you level up, except in a few milestone cases. Usually it's just like "woo, another 0.5%". The classic WoW talent tree and the D2 talent tree only give the illusion of choice. They aren't better systems. They just add a meaningless button to click each level that gets you some paltry passive value.
I'm firmly in the camp of people who likes WoW's current talent system and D3's Skills/Runes system much better, because at least the choices feel meaningful.
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but I'm fairly certain every choice on the D2 skill tree was a... skill...
A while ago, probably 6months or more, I think it was Bellular who made a really great pitch for an overhauled WoW leveling system. Basically, his idea was to keep the current talent tree with it's big decisions at milestone levels. And during the in-between levels, award players with gear or cosmetics, or both.
Imagine something like this:
Ding level 2, 3, 4, the game just straight up gives you a piece of gear appropriate for your level and class. At 5 you get to pick a talent or something. Then levels 6, 7, 8,9 you get more gear for your class. And then another decision at 10.
Then you start upgrading people's cosmetics. At level 11 your fireball looks just a little cooler than it did before. They used to do this in WoW a long time ago anyway, but it wasn't as clearly defined. Remember the mage Arcane Missiles spell during classic/BC? You started with I think just two missiles, but as you gained more ranks of the spell, you started shooting more and more missiles and started looking more and more awesome.
They should bring cosmetic rewards back and just make them a part of the leveling experience.
D2s skill tree was rather limited I guess but I disagree on the rest at a core level. Skillers and gearing gave you noticeable jumps in power with what in the end became passive bonuses (skill tree). People early on found the skills that offered the most utility or dmg but the real shine of D2 was that gearing/stats mattered. If you got an inventory of skillers you felt their presence. If you got a Grief you felt the increased carnage around you frenzying things in the face. In WoW if you got to your notables you felt their presence. With their one shotting ability for some. Or the like. It is the RPG aspect that is still present in gaming in places. Like in gacha games for one. The main difference between units is gearing in a lot of the ones I have seen and the one LadyJubs got me into. So while the 5% here or there may seem "meaningless" it isnt. Because that is the value difference between my guy and the guy who doesnt have it. And in the end gives me that slight edge because I ground that out.
Its a big reason I like PoE. Its a lot of 1% here and there on the tree at face value but its spread out so much that the value over someone who can make use of it over someone who cant means so much there. And the gearing matters there as well and a huge source of power.
Jubal77 on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I like D3's skills and runes way better than D2's boring tree.
In D2 it very rarely feels like you gain anything when you level up, except in a few milestone cases. Usually it's just like "woo, another 0.5%". The classic WoW talent tree and the D2 talent tree only give the illusion of choice. They aren't better systems. They just add a meaningless button to click each level that gets you some paltry passive value.
I'm firmly in the camp of people who likes WoW's current talent system and D3's Skills/Runes system much better, because at least the choices feel meaningful.
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but I'm fairly certain every choice on the D2 skill tree was a... skill...
And there weren't any ".5%" things.
There were about the same number in total as the D3 skills with different runes, and putting further levels into a skill (which you had to do for higher difficulty play) just gave extra damage.
I like D3's skills and runes way better than D2's boring tree.
In D2 it very rarely feels like you gain anything when you level up, except in a few milestone cases. Usually it's just like "woo, another 0.5%". The classic WoW talent tree and the D2 talent tree only give the illusion of choice. They aren't better systems. They just add a meaningless button to click each level that gets you some paltry passive value.
I'm firmly in the camp of people who likes WoW's current talent system and D3's Skills/Runes system much better, because at least the choices feel meaningful.
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but I'm fairly certain every choice on the D2 skill tree was a... skill...
And there weren't any ".5%" things.
Synergies.
Later on in D2's life it became a game of picking skills not for the skill itself but for the incremental bonuses that synergies provided to the main skill your build revolved around.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I like D3's skills and runes way better than D2's boring tree.
In D2 it very rarely feels like you gain anything when you level up, except in a few milestone cases. Usually it's just like "woo, another 0.5%". The classic WoW talent tree and the D2 talent tree only give the illusion of choice. They aren't better systems. They just add a meaningless button to click each level that gets you some paltry passive value.
I'm firmly in the camp of people who likes WoW's current talent system and D3's Skills/Runes system much better, because at least the choices feel meaningful.
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but I'm fairly certain every choice on the D2 skill tree was a... skill...
And there weren't any ".5%" things.
There were about the same number in total as the D3 skills with different runes, and putting further levels into a skill (which you had to do for higher difficulty play) just gave extra damage.
Gotcha, that's right. I was just thinking of the overall skill tree. I haven't played D2 since the early 2000's.
I like D3's skills and runes way better than D2's boring tree.
In D2 it very rarely feels like you gain anything when you level up, except in a few milestone cases. Usually it's just like "woo, another 0.5%". The classic WoW talent tree and the D2 talent tree only give the illusion of choice. They aren't better systems. They just add a meaningless button to click each level that gets you some paltry passive value.
I'm firmly in the camp of people who likes WoW's current talent system and D3's Skills/Runes system much better, because at least the choices feel meaningful.
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but I'm fairly certain every choice on the D2 skill tree was a... skill...
And there weren't any ".5%" things.
Synergies.
Later on in D2's life it became a game of picking skills not for the skill itself but for the incremental bonuses that synergies provided to the main skill your build revolved around.
This may just be my PoE fanboyism talking, but getting skills/items/damage types/damage conversions to synergize and hit like a truck is one of my favorite things about that game.
jungleroomx on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
D2s skill tree was rather limited I guess but I disagree on the rest at a core level. Skillers and gearing gave you noticeable jumps in power with what in the end became passive bonuses (skill tree). People early on found the skills that offered the most utility or dmg but the real shine of D2 was that gearing/stats mattered. If you got an inventory of skillers you felt their presence. If you got a Grief you felt the increased carnage around you frenzying things in the face. In WoW if you got to your notables you felt their presence. With their one shotting ability for some. Or the like. It is the RPG aspect that is still present in gaming in places. Like in gacha games for one. The main difference between units is gearing in a lot of the ones I have seen and the one LadyJubs got me into. So while the 5% here or there may seem "meaningless" it isnt. Because that is the value difference between my guy and the guy who doesnt have it. And in the end gives me that slight edge because I ground that out.
Its a big reason I like PoE. Its a lot of 1% here and there on the tree at face value but its spread out so much that the value over someone who can make use of it over someone who cant means so much there. And the gearing matters there as well and a huge source of power.
I still think PoE's skill tree is a work of design art.
I like D3's skills and runes way better than D2's boring tree.
In D2 it very rarely feels like you gain anything when you level up, except in a few milestone cases. Usually it's just like "woo, another 0.5%". The classic WoW talent tree and the D2 talent tree only give the illusion of choice. They aren't better systems. They just add a meaningless button to click each level that gets you some paltry passive value.
I'm firmly in the camp of people who likes WoW's current talent system and D3's Skills/Runes system much better, because at least the choices feel meaningful.
So is the problem for you just that the more significant choices (picking a new skill) use the same system as the incremental ones?
Or is it the existence of the incremental improvements in the first place? Or just that they are choices the player has to make?
I remember a lot of the debate and consternation back around D3's release. While I can understand some of the people who found the D3 skill system too forgiving, personally I was happy not to have to re-roll my character because I accidentally put points into the wrong choice, or feeling I was permanently held back by a sub-optimal attribute allocation. There were lengthy and heated debates that not being able to create a bare knuckle brawling Sorceress equivalent was somehow detrimental to the game.
People on these pages (not to 'call out' anyone, but to address a theme of comments made by a few) that there were more choices present is, imo, questionable. Yes, it was certainly more time consuming to abandon one character to start up a new one, but much like with D3, getting into power leveling parties wasn't exactly an impossible task, which trivialized much of the 'effort' into getting the levels to spend the skill points/stat points, which meant that really it was just a big time sink to get to do what one wanted, and included a risk element that you accidentally wandered too close to a Lightning Enchanted enemy (or worse, lag/graphical issues meant you didn't see the bolts until you were already dead).
While I can empathize with wanting more impactful choices, to feel some heightened element of 'risk' or other limiting factor that makes it easier to do something other than 'just pick the best skill from a Flavor Of The Month guide', I feel it also overlooks how these limitations also impacted people in more detrimental ways. Hell, in the last few pages we had a big wave of people admitting to using maphacks and botting. Not that there's necessarily overlap, but more to my point, those 'hard choices' were only hard at the start, and for those unwilling to use/abuse loopholes and worse. I put a simply unreasonable amount of time into D2, bought it the day it came out and put in plenty of tours of duty before my characters finally disappeared due to inactivity (which was a thing back in the day, no idea if it still is). Got the expansion, played every class, etc.
So, I think there can be a middle ground. Maybe 'on the fly' swapping is too permissive, but 'go spend an afternoon following in a group's trail soaking up xp and scraps' isn't exactly a quality gaming experience either, especially done several times over. A wider internet will always gravitate towards the fastest/easiest methods of advancement, especially in multiplayer. Whatever the next Meph runs or Pindle Runs are will be where many people spend an absurd amount of time (or at least, their computers do). Putting barriers in their way may enhance the player's engagement/investment with the character, or maybe it just further emphasizes the need to bypass them, in which case why have the barriers in the first place?
I enjoy D1, D2, and D3. I certainly don't believe that D3 is the pinnacle of game design, and would welcome ways to improve upon it. Especially as the franchise and player base age, I like being able to put dozens of precious free hours into a character, discover a new item or set or build and explore that without having to start over from scratch (or something close to it). Even someone who played D2 at release as a child has to be in their mid to late 20's or early 30's, not to mention those of us who are rapidly approaching 40 and beyond.
This isn't a reason to abandon efforts to invest players in the characters and the choices they make, but it's something that only grows over time, and is a consideration that I'm fairly confident led to some of the WoW changes back when I was investing more of my life into it than I'd care to talk about (/played across all characters is... not something I was proud of).
So, this isn't necessarily intended to refute anyones views, stances, or opinions. They are my own, but if we're sharing examples and considerations, I felt this was an angle on the issue that wasn't being represented, and it's one that is important to me.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I always found the reroll argument rather moot. D2 long ago introduced an in game method past the 3 free rerolls to grind out another respec. Pretty much all other modern ARPGs offer in game abiliity to do so. If you are single player there are community mods to freely respec that existed since the beginning really. And now have been developed to a point to offer online only aspects to offline for a long time as well. I know that technically the argument is a valid point but given the options there are easy ways around it.
The D2 rush/carry meta was always a major detriment to my enjoyment of the game. I couldn't even get my RL friends to just play the game with me, the idea of just getting carried and hitting 99 ASAP was too tantalizing for them.
Eventually I gave in because playing with other people was better than playing alone, even if it wasn't the experience I was seeking.
D3 is a game that was clearly conceived before Blizzard made the transition into games as a service. It's the last of that traditional business model from them - release a game, then an expansion, support it for a while, then move on. I've long theorized that the reason they didn't pivot it into an ongoing live game is because the core game itself simply isn't suited to it, and they felt it was better to start a new game that was built that way from scratch. I don't agree with most of the PoE-centric criticisms of the game design around character specialization, but bounties and rifts are indeed band-aid features added on top of a game that simply wasn't designed for true longevity at its core.
The game I want them to learn from is Warframe. Don't sweat the story too much - although I do want to see some story - but focus more on providing a wide breadth of entertaining things to do. Ditch the idea of seasons and instead focus on continuously adding new sidegrades and cosmetics etc that you can keep grinding for without constantly starting over. I know the old school D2/PoE players love restarting new characters with specialized builds, but that's a big turn-off for most people (please take my word for it). MMOs have always been designed around replayability and they never force you to start over.
For people who do like to start fresh I'd also like to see them take hardcore mode more seriously. There are a lot of opportunities for them to learn from the roguelite craze which they didn't do at all in D3. I want to see a roguelite mode focused more on shorter runs with significant variance between.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I haven't looked at PoE's skill tree, but I really, really like Torchlight 2's skill trees.
Also that you can pretty much build any of the classes as a caster or a melee monster if you wanted to.
PoE's skill tree is a meme by this point, but
Keep in mind that this contains all 7 classes (100 levels max, 20+ skill points from quests) and it goes from Wisdom at 12 o clock, Dexterity at 5, Strength at 8, Wis/Dex at 2, Str/Dex at 6, and Str/Wis and 10. The circle portions have similar skills but clockwise and counterclockwise directions contain different focuses.
The game I want them to learn from is Warframe. Don't sweat the story too much - although I do want to see some story - but focus more on providing a wide breadth of entertaining things to do. Ditch the idea of seasons and instead focus on continuously adding new sidegrades and cosmetics etc that you can keep grinding for without constantly starting over. I know the old school D2/PoE players love restarting new characters with specialized builds, but that's a big turn-off for most people (please take my word for it). MMOs have always been designed around replayability and they never force you to start over.
I think games are just starting to pass me by. I was never big into the idea of Diablo as a longterm game to play. I would literally roll a character, beat the game, maybe tool around a little bit afterwards, but ultimately be done. Even as thin as it was, the story in those games was 100% my reason for playing. I liked the fact that I could finish that and be done with the game, coming back once when the expansion drops. But it's more of a larger issue as I'm becoming increasingly distressed (by which I mean the idea gives me anxiety) of every single game now trying to become this permanent thing in my life. I loved No Man's Sky and Astroneer, but with every update I find it increasingly difficult to go back to those games, to the point where I'm now getting several updates behind, and it's severely triggering my FOMO as I try to balance out my other hobbies, all the million other games that come out, and all these older games that keep getting update after update.
I feel like this isn't tenable for me, and I'm curious if it's tenable for the future if all these big companies try to turn every game into a longlasting live service game.
As someone who keeps dipping my toe into the PoE waters, as soon as my foot gets about halfway in I get way too overwhelmed and just give up.
I think it's awesome the amount of content and love thrown at this game by the devs, but it just leaves me completely lost. It is not intuitive.
That said, I do think there is room for D4 to bring a bit more complexity and diversity.
Yeah, there's definitely a large amount of space between PoE's absolutely impenetrable nature ("More" and "Increased" mean 2 hugely different things, for instance) and D3's fear of imparting any consequences towards player actions at all.
jungleroomx on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
As someone who keeps dipping my toe into the PoE waters, as soon as my foot gets about halfway in I get way too overwhelmed and just give up.
I think it's awesome the amount of content and love thrown at this game by the devs, but it just leaves me completely lost. It is not intuitive.
That said, I do think there is room for D4 to bring a bit more complexity and diversity.
Yeah, there's definitely a large amount of space between PoE's absolutely impenetrable nature ("More" and "Increased" mean 2 hugely different things, for instance) and D3's fear of imparting any consequences towards player actions at all.
Well that's just rude.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
As someone who keeps dipping my toe into the PoE waters, as soon as my foot gets about halfway in I get way too overwhelmed and just give up.
I think it's awesome the amount of content and love thrown at this game by the devs, but it just leaves me completely lost. It is not intuitive.
That said, I do think there is room for D4 to bring a bit more complexity and diversity.
Yeah, there's definitely a large amount of space between PoE's absolutely impenetrable nature ("More" and "Increased" mean 2 hugely different things, for instance) and D3's fear of imparting any consequences towards player actions at all.
Well that's just rude.
One's additive, ones multiplicative.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
As someone who keeps dipping my toe into the PoE waters, as soon as my foot gets about halfway in I get way too overwhelmed and just give up.
I think it's awesome the amount of content and love thrown at this game by the devs, but it just leaves me completely lost. It is not intuitive.
That said, I do think there is room for D4 to bring a bit more complexity and diversity.
Yeah, there's definitely a large amount of space between PoE's absolutely impenetrable nature ("More" and "Increased" mean 2 hugely different things, for instance) and D3's fear of imparting any consequences towards player actions at all.
Well that's just rude.
One's additive, ones multiplicative.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
As someone who keeps dipping my toe into the PoE waters, as soon as my foot gets about halfway in I get way too overwhelmed and just give up.
I think it's awesome the amount of content and love thrown at this game by the devs, but it just leaves me completely lost. It is not intuitive.
That said, I do think there is room for D4 to bring a bit more complexity and diversity.
Yeah, there's definitely a large amount of space between PoE's absolutely impenetrable nature ("More" and "Increased" mean 2 hugely different things, for instance) and D3's fear of imparting any consequences towards player actions at all.
Well that's just rude.
One's additive, ones multiplicative.
There's also damage conversion (elemental, etc), ailments, resistance penetration, auras, heralds, armor, evasion, dodge, impale, accuracy, attack speed, block chance, and whether or not your opponent has energy shield or life.
Not to mention the dozens of items that can change how any of these things work, and the ascendancy skill trees (small ones you get access to for finishing a lab) which can be huge boosts to playstyles.
You can safely ignore a lot of it until it's deep into the endgame. I wish some of this complexity made it into D3, tbh. I just don't get the same feeling of owning a particular character/build, you know?
I know that its a little OT but the PA PoE thread is active. And like I tell everyone that has interest in the game. The official forums have all manner of build guides in them, that we in the PoE thread can help you find, that help learn the game at a much higher pace. I build all my characters now but I started with build guides.
I like D3's skills and runes way better than D2's boring tree.
In D2 it very rarely feels like you gain anything when you level up, except in a few milestone cases. Usually it's just like "woo, another 0.5%". The classic WoW talent tree and the D2 talent tree only give the illusion of choice. They aren't better systems. They just add a meaningless button to click each level that gets you some paltry passive value.
I'm firmly in the camp of people who likes WoW's current talent system and D3's Skills/Runes system much better, because at least the choices feel meaningful.
So is the problem for you just that the more significant choices (picking a new skill) use the same system as the incremental ones?
Or is it the existence of the incremental improvements in the first place? Or just that they are choices the player has to make?
I do not honestly have a problem with incremental improvements. I just don't really think either the D2 tree or the Classic WoW talent tree either one are very good. Mostly because there is generally always a "right way" to fill them out. People do math. People post math online. Every build becomes the same build. That's partly why I say it give an illusion of choice.
Because you can fill it out however you like. But you can fill it out wrong.
Don't misunderstand me. I still had fun with Classic WoW and D2. And D2's skill tree let me come up with some truly ridiculous builds. Like a build I call the "Fun Barb" which was literally just a bunch of Shouts and Throwing Dagger specialization. It was a godawful spec, but I loved it for it's sheer ridiculousness. And yes, that system is what gave me the flexibility to do crazy stuff like that.
But at the same time, I wasn't playing for realzies when I did that. I was just playing to goof around.
The other major problem I have with those types of incremental skill trees is that you pretty much have to pre-plan the whole thing in advance, because there's usually some sort of archaic punishment for making a mistake. In Classic WoW, there was an enormous respec cost. In D2 you literally could not respec at all. You had to create an entirely new character and start over if you screwed up your point allocations. (Yes, I know they patched respecs in eventually, but by the time D2 got respecs that game was like 10 years old and already super dead).
Lucascraft on
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
The diablo 3 skill system is very good actually, because it took out everything that was boring and bad about the D2 skill system
I think D3 did a bad job with uniques and sets though. I like the cool stuff the sets let you do and I think some of the uniques have interesting effects but sets ended up being limiting and most of the uniques are boring or trash (though thats true of basically every arpg with uniques)
D3 never really provided enough ways for people to interact with the skill system and feel clever, kanais cube was a huge step in the right direction but even post ROS there wasnt enough support given to uniques which sucked because gear was the major way of defining your played
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The diablo 3 skill system is very good actually, because it took out everything that was boring and bad about the D2 skill system
I think D3 did a bad job with uniques and sets though. I like the cool stuff the sets let you do and I think some of the uniques have interesting effects but sets ended up being limiting and most of the uniques are boring or trash (though thats true of basically every arpg with uniques)
D3 never really provided enough ways for people to interact with the skill system and feel clever, kanais cube was a huge step in the right direction but even post ROS there wasnt enough support given to uniques which sucked because gear was the major way of defining your played
I feel the PoE, again, did something interesting with the Uniques in that it made them have negative effects as well as positive ones, or they simply aren't as good at flat damage as a well-rolled Rare but change your playstyle in some way. D3's Legendaries are just either Best In Slot or not worth bothering with, and the sets dictate which skills get used.
jungleroomx on
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
The diablo 3 skill system is very good actually, because it took out everything that was boring and bad about the D2 skill system
I think D3 did a bad job with uniques and sets though. I like the cool stuff the sets let you do and I think some of the uniques have interesting effects but sets ended up being limiting and most of the uniques are boring or trash (though thats true of basically every arpg with uniques)
D3 never really provided enough ways for people to interact with the skill system and feel clever, kanais cube was a huge step in the right direction but even post ROS there wasnt enough support given to uniques which sucked because gear was the major way of defining your played
I feel the PoE, again, did something interesting with the Uniques in that it made them have negative effects as well as positive ones, or they simply aren't as good at flat damage as a well-rolled Rare.
Poe is definitely much more willing to throw downsides on items, which I think is neat but also in line with its general design philosophy
But poe also has a million completely worthless uniques and some others that are crazy good
I like poe though, its very good at being what it set out to be
Posts
Reading through the mostly pro-bread comments on that reddit post gets me this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/49x7m0/chinese_wow_censorship_comparisonlots_of/d0w9h52/
So looks like we are already past that point.
To me and many others it was the death of the game. Loot 2.0.
But there's no reason to think the skill system was a problem that needed solving by itemization and they never really changed it around drastically in any way that reflected the idea that it was (in their minds) a problem for the game. Maybe you don't like the skill system personally, but there's nothing to suggest that it was seen as a problem. Whereas the itemization system and the grinds to engage with it there pretty clearly is and they spent a lot of time and resources changing the game to deal with them.
Why should the skill system have solved the problem itemization changes fixed? What even was the problem?
The way it's set up means there's no customization, just pick the 1-2 Best In Slot options for Every Single Build in This Class. Also, D3's damage model was probably the biggest thing making their Skill system be so subpar, and contributed a lot to the tiny number of builds available: You didn't make a build around a damage type, the damage type was incidental at best.
D3 was streamlined to the point where it was no longer enjoyable as a long term game like D2.
In the end we will see how it goes. I hope they can give us something better in this next iteration.
In D2 it very rarely feels like you gain anything when you level up, except in a few milestone cases. Usually it's just like "woo, another 0.5%". The classic WoW talent tree and the D2 talent tree only give the illusion of choice. They aren't better systems. They just add a meaningless button to click each level that gets you some paltry passive value.
I'm firmly in the camp of people who likes WoW's current talent system and D3's Skills/Runes system much better, because at least the choices feel meaningful.
I dunno how they can come up with something like PoE's skill gems, which to this day I find to be the best implementation of a skill system. It allows a lot of flexibility but also, changing things can cost you a ton of resources if it's high level (think recoloring a STR/DEX item to 4 blues, for instance).
Definitely not a "Here's 5 options, just pick whatver."
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but I'm fairly certain every choice on the D2 skill tree was a... skill...
And there weren't any ".5%" things.
A while ago, probably 6months or more, I think it was Bellular who made a really great pitch for an overhauled WoW leveling system. Basically, his idea was to keep the current talent tree with it's big decisions at milestone levels. And during the in-between levels, award players with gear or cosmetics, or both.
Imagine something like this:
Ding level 2, 3, 4, the game just straight up gives you a piece of gear appropriate for your level and class. At 5 you get to pick a talent or something. Then levels 6, 7, 8,9 you get more gear for your class. And then another decision at 10.
Then you start upgrading people's cosmetics. At level 11 your fireball looks just a little cooler than it did before. They used to do this in WoW a long time ago anyway, but it wasn't as clearly defined. Remember the mage Arcane Missiles spell during classic/BC? You started with I think just two missiles, but as you gained more ranks of the spell, you started shooting more and more missiles and started looking more and more awesome.
They should bring cosmetic rewards back and just make them a part of the leveling experience.
Its a big reason I like PoE. Its a lot of 1% here and there on the tree at face value but its spread out so much that the value over someone who can make use of it over someone who cant means so much there. And the gearing matters there as well and a huge source of power.
There were about the same number in total as the D3 skills with different runes, and putting further levels into a skill (which you had to do for higher difficulty play) just gave extra damage.
Synergies.
Later on in D2's life it became a game of picking skills not for the skill itself but for the incremental bonuses that synergies provided to the main skill your build revolved around.
Gotcha, that's right. I was just thinking of the overall skill tree. I haven't played D2 since the early 2000's.
This may just be my PoE fanboyism talking, but getting skills/items/damage types/damage conversions to synergize and hit like a truck is one of my favorite things about that game.
I still think PoE's skill tree is a work of design art.
So is the problem for you just that the more significant choices (picking a new skill) use the same system as the incremental ones?
Or is it the existence of the incremental improvements in the first place? Or just that they are choices the player has to make?
Also that you can pretty much build any of the classes as a caster or a melee monster if you wanted to.
People on these pages (not to 'call out' anyone, but to address a theme of comments made by a few) that there were more choices present is, imo, questionable. Yes, it was certainly more time consuming to abandon one character to start up a new one, but much like with D3, getting into power leveling parties wasn't exactly an impossible task, which trivialized much of the 'effort' into getting the levels to spend the skill points/stat points, which meant that really it was just a big time sink to get to do what one wanted, and included a risk element that you accidentally wandered too close to a Lightning Enchanted enemy (or worse, lag/graphical issues meant you didn't see the bolts until you were already dead).
While I can empathize with wanting more impactful choices, to feel some heightened element of 'risk' or other limiting factor that makes it easier to do something other than 'just pick the best skill from a Flavor Of The Month guide', I feel it also overlooks how these limitations also impacted people in more detrimental ways. Hell, in the last few pages we had a big wave of people admitting to using maphacks and botting. Not that there's necessarily overlap, but more to my point, those 'hard choices' were only hard at the start, and for those unwilling to use/abuse loopholes and worse. I put a simply unreasonable amount of time into D2, bought it the day it came out and put in plenty of tours of duty before my characters finally disappeared due to inactivity (which was a thing back in the day, no idea if it still is). Got the expansion, played every class, etc.
So, I think there can be a middle ground. Maybe 'on the fly' swapping is too permissive, but 'go spend an afternoon following in a group's trail soaking up xp and scraps' isn't exactly a quality gaming experience either, especially done several times over. A wider internet will always gravitate towards the fastest/easiest methods of advancement, especially in multiplayer. Whatever the next Meph runs or Pindle Runs are will be where many people spend an absurd amount of time (or at least, their computers do). Putting barriers in their way may enhance the player's engagement/investment with the character, or maybe it just further emphasizes the need to bypass them, in which case why have the barriers in the first place?
I enjoy D1, D2, and D3. I certainly don't believe that D3 is the pinnacle of game design, and would welcome ways to improve upon it. Especially as the franchise and player base age, I like being able to put dozens of precious free hours into a character, discover a new item or set or build and explore that without having to start over from scratch (or something close to it). Even someone who played D2 at release as a child has to be in their mid to late 20's or early 30's, not to mention those of us who are rapidly approaching 40 and beyond.
This isn't a reason to abandon efforts to invest players in the characters and the choices they make, but it's something that only grows over time, and is a consideration that I'm fairly confident led to some of the WoW changes back when I was investing more of my life into it than I'd care to talk about (/played across all characters is... not something I was proud of).
So, this isn't necessarily intended to refute anyones views, stances, or opinions. They are my own, but if we're sharing examples and considerations, I felt this was an angle on the issue that wasn't being represented, and it's one that is important to me.
Eventually I gave in because playing with other people was better than playing alone, even if it wasn't the experience I was seeking.
The game I want them to learn from is Warframe. Don't sweat the story too much - although I do want to see some story - but focus more on providing a wide breadth of entertaining things to do. Ditch the idea of seasons and instead focus on continuously adding new sidegrades and cosmetics etc that you can keep grinding for without constantly starting over. I know the old school D2/PoE players love restarting new characters with specialized builds, but that's a big turn-off for most people (please take my word for it). MMOs have always been designed around replayability and they never force you to start over.
For people who do like to start fresh I'd also like to see them take hardcore mode more seriously. There are a lot of opportunities for them to learn from the roguelite craze which they didn't do at all in D3. I want to see a roguelite mode focused more on shorter runs with significant variance between.
PoE's skill tree is a meme by this point, but
Keep in mind that this contains all 7 classes (100 levels max, 20+ skill points from quests) and it goes from Wisdom at 12 o clock, Dexterity at 5, Strength at 8, Wis/Dex at 2, Str/Dex at 6, and Str/Wis and 10. The circle portions have similar skills but clockwise and counterclockwise directions contain different focuses.
It's... actually quite the piece of work.
Nah it's amazing. Legit amazing.
It's what gives the game a lot of its flexibility.
I think games are just starting to pass me by. I was never big into the idea of Diablo as a longterm game to play. I would literally roll a character, beat the game, maybe tool around a little bit afterwards, but ultimately be done. Even as thin as it was, the story in those games was 100% my reason for playing. I liked the fact that I could finish that and be done with the game, coming back once when the expansion drops. But it's more of a larger issue as I'm becoming increasingly distressed (by which I mean the idea gives me anxiety) of every single game now trying to become this permanent thing in my life. I loved No Man's Sky and Astroneer, but with every update I find it increasingly difficult to go back to those games, to the point where I'm now getting several updates behind, and it's severely triggering my FOMO as I try to balance out my other hobbies, all the million other games that come out, and all these older games that keep getting update after update.
I feel like this isn't tenable for me, and I'm curious if it's tenable for the future if all these big companies try to turn every game into a longlasting live service game.
The sphere grid I would say is the more pain in the ass. You dont have locked spheres in the way on that tree.
Main stat builds are really only possible because of this tree, and it's something wholly unique to PoE.
I think it's awesome the amount of content and love thrown at this game by the devs, but it just leaves me completely lost. It is not intuitive.
That said, I do think there is room for D4 to bring a bit more complexity and diversity.
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Yeah, there's definitely a large amount of space between PoE's absolutely impenetrable nature ("More" and "Increased" mean 2 hugely different things, for instance) and D3's fear of imparting any consequences towards player actions at all.
Well that's just rude.
One's additive, ones multiplicative.
There's also damage conversion (elemental, etc), ailments, resistance penetration, auras, heralds, armor, evasion, dodge, impale, accuracy, attack speed, block chance, and whether or not your opponent has energy shield or life.
Not to mention the dozens of items that can change how any of these things work, and the ascendancy skill trees (small ones you get access to for finishing a lab) which can be huge boosts to playstyles.
You can safely ignore a lot of it until it's deep into the endgame. I wish some of this complexity made it into D3, tbh. I just don't get the same feeling of owning a particular character/build, you know?
I do not honestly have a problem with incremental improvements. I just don't really think either the D2 tree or the Classic WoW talent tree either one are very good. Mostly because there is generally always a "right way" to fill them out. People do math. People post math online. Every build becomes the same build. That's partly why I say it give an illusion of choice.
Because you can fill it out however you like. But you can fill it out wrong.
Don't misunderstand me. I still had fun with Classic WoW and D2. And D2's skill tree let me come up with some truly ridiculous builds. Like a build I call the "Fun Barb" which was literally just a bunch of Shouts and Throwing Dagger specialization. It was a godawful spec, but I loved it for it's sheer ridiculousness. And yes, that system is what gave me the flexibility to do crazy stuff like that.
But at the same time, I wasn't playing for realzies when I did that. I was just playing to goof around.
The other major problem I have with those types of incremental skill trees is that you pretty much have to pre-plan the whole thing in advance, because there's usually some sort of archaic punishment for making a mistake. In Classic WoW, there was an enormous respec cost. In D2 you literally could not respec at all. You had to create an entirely new character and start over if you screwed up your point allocations. (Yes, I know they patched respecs in eventually, but by the time D2 got respecs that game was like 10 years old and already super dead).
I think D3 did a bad job with uniques and sets though. I like the cool stuff the sets let you do and I think some of the uniques have interesting effects but sets ended up being limiting and most of the uniques are boring or trash (though thats true of basically every arpg with uniques)
D3 never really provided enough ways for people to interact with the skill system and feel clever, kanais cube was a huge step in the right direction but even post ROS there wasnt enough support given to uniques which sucked because gear was the major way of defining your played
I feel the PoE, again, did something interesting with the Uniques in that it made them have negative effects as well as positive ones, or they simply aren't as good at flat damage as a well-rolled Rare but change your playstyle in some way. D3's Legendaries are just either Best In Slot or not worth bothering with, and the sets dictate which skills get used.
But poe also has a million completely worthless uniques and some others that are crazy good
I like poe though, its very good at being what it set out to be