Sometimes I think people need to put the spreadsheets down more and just play with their games.
Sometimes that's part of the fun!
* looks at his jupyter notebooks for computing single-salvo headshot kill probabilities
* Looks at his spreadsheet filled with useful tonnages by class and weight class
<.< >.>
+6
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Sometimes I think people need to put the spreadsheets down more and just play with their games.
Sometimes that's part of the fun!
* looks at his jupyter notebooks for computing single-salvo headshot kill probabilities
* Looks at his spreadsheet filled with useful tonnages by class and weight class
<.< >.>
I know, I mostly mean when discussion get bogged down in trivialities.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I’ll be honest, my lance setups for BattleTech when it got to the end game were an LRM boat stocked with as much +Stab as possible, two big brawlers with massive ACs and SRMs, and a MAD with a Tac10 pilot in the gunner seat.
LRMing a mech into unsteady for one of the bulwarked KGCs to knock it down the next activation so my MAD could needle through the cockpit (or maybe a leg) was my standard engagement protocol.
It worked, got me lots of mechs (to pilot or sell), and was fun for me, even though it probably wasn’t very efficient in actions.
+2
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Sometimes I think people need to put the spreadsheets down more and just play with their games.
Sometimes that's part of the fun!
* looks at his jupyter notebooks for computing single-salvo headshot kill probabilities
* Looks at his spreadsheet filled with useful tonnages by class and weight class
<.< >.>
I know, I mostly mean when discussion get bogged down in trivialities.
*pushes glasses up*
In my 6000 word essay I'll show you why that extra 0.5 tons of capacity matters in...
Orca on
+6
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NipsHe/HimLuxuriating in existential crisis.Registered Userregular
Listen, arguing about trivialities is a time-honored tradition within the Battletech community. Hell, for runs of years that was the only discourse to have!
Truly, we live in a utopian moment for the franchise, where the font of things to argue over is ever-flowing and the discourse feels fresh every day!
*goes back to arguing why Light Mechs are good, actually*
+7
Options
OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Listen, arguing about trivialities is a time-honored tradition within the Battletech community. Hell, for runs of years that was the only discourse to have!
Truly, we live in a utopian moment for the franchise, where the font of things to argue over is ever-flowing and the discourse feels fresh every day!
*goes back to arguing why Light Mechs are good, actually*
Please note, the agree was for your first three sentences
that last sentence is wrong and you should feel bad for it!
Listen, arguing about trivialities is a time-honored tradition within the Battletech community. Hell, for runs of years that was the only discourse to have!
Truly, we live in a utopian moment for the franchise, where the font of things to argue over is ever-flowing and the discourse feels fresh every day!
*goes back to arguing why Light Mechs are good, actually*
Please note, the agree was for your first three sentences
that last sentence is wrong and you should feel bad for it!
1) 100t - 25t = ?
2) A Drop Commander has a limit of 260t. What mechs does she use?
3) Calculate the time it would take to stop a target going 129.6 km/h?
4) A Hunchback is traveling East at 64.8 km/h while a Locust is traveling West at 129.6 km/h. The distance is 1,000 km between them. Assuming that they do not change speeds, how far does the Hunchback have to travel in order to punch the Locust?
It's a well known fact that the word "oosik" is common slang for irredeemable drunkards looking for a fight on at least a half dozen periphery worlds who found their planetary distilleries mysteriously smashed and looted.
We don't specifically recall being responsible for such occurrences, but it would seem to fit a pattern.
Light mechs would be amazingly fun IF THEY DIDN'T NERF THE SHIT OUT OF THEM.
Why do Flamers have such limited ammo?!?! Why does Evasion become almost useless late game?!!
Flamer ammo was adjusted down because of balance concerns in multiplayer.
Evasion decays so the player doesn't have to spend 37 turns trying to land a hit on fast lights. And the game design pretty clearly assumes most players will use the heaviest mechs they have at any given time to deal with being outnumbered, so keeping lights viable for the player was a less important goal than making it easier for the player to kill lights.
However, there are mods to change both if you wish.
SiliconStew on
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
Light mechs would be amazingly fun IF THEY DIDN'T NERF THE SHIT OUT OF THEM.
Why do Flamers have such limited ammo?!?! Why does Evasion become almost useless late game?!!
Flamer ammo limit is stupid, I think its because of pvp (which nobody even plays). Evasion however becomes godlike in late game with +3 dodge gyros and 10 pilotting pilots. Light mechs have no trouble surviving, it's just you can't strap a dozen autocannons into one so their damage is limited. An Annie blows up any mech from a mile away and Marauders use their aimbot 1337 c34t h4x to headshot mechs every turn so a Firestarter doing 250 damage isn't cool enough for people.
+2
Options
OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Light mechs would be amazingly fun IF THEY DIDN'T NERF THE SHIT OUT OF THEM.
Why do Flamers have such limited ammo?!?! Why does Evasion become almost useless late game?!!
Flamer ammo limit is stupid, I think its because of pvp (which nobody even plays). Evasion however becomes godlike in late game with +3 dodge gyros and 10 pilotting pilots. Light mechs have no trouble surviving, it's just you can't strap a dozen autocannons into one so their damage is limited. An Annie blows up any mech from a mile away and Marauders use their aimbot 1337 c34t h4x to headshot mechs every turn so a Firestarter doing 250 damage isn't cool enough for people.
Now a Phoenixhawk PHX-1B on the other hand...(granted it's a medium, not a light, but given its mobility I feel like it kinda should be treated like one)
+1
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
The game does favour the Steiner Scout Lance approach quite heavily with the lance size limits.
I was expecting for half the game for it to go up by 2 like Xcom.
I was really confused when it didn't.
There's mods for that too.
Doesn't count! Complaint stands for vanilla game. Sorry but mods don't get to fix design flaws this isn't Bethesda.
I mean it doesn't count for bethesda either.
I've just given up on them.
It's not a design flaw, it's design intent. They built the game around playing a single lance, explicitly choosing not to go with versions they prototyped that allowed you to play with more than 4 because they felt it slowed the pace of gameplay too much. Saying it's a flaw is like saying chess has a design flaw because pawns can't move unlimited number of spaces forward. That's not a flaw, that's just how they wanted the game to work. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion that something would be subjectively better if they did X. Fortunately such opinions are easily accommodated through mods.
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
+2
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SaldonasSee you space cowboy...Registered Userregular
I feel like if you haven't tried some of the wonderful mods for this game, you haven't unlocked and experience this game's true potential. I absolutely love Battletech Revised because it makes just about every single weapon worth using. The balance is amazing.
The game does favour the Steiner Scout Lance approach quite heavily with the lance size limits.
I was expecting for half the game for it to go up by 2 like Xcom.
I was really confused when it didn't.
There's mods for that too.
Doesn't count! Complaint stands for vanilla game. Sorry but mods don't get to fix design flaws this isn't Bethesda.
I mean it doesn't count for bethesda either.
I've just given up on them.
It's not a design flaw, it's design intent. They built the game around playing a single lance, explicitly choosing not to go with versions they prototyped that allowed you to play with more than 4 because they felt it slowed the pace of gameplay too much. Saying it's a flaw is like saying chess has a design flaw because pawns can't move unlimited number of spaces forward. That's not a flaw, that's just how they wanted the game to work. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion that something would be subjectively better if they did X. Fortunately such opinions are easily accommodated through mods.
They also could've gone with a tonnage limit instead of a mech limit, or more variety in mission profiles to make different weapons/mechs more viable. I can understand why they didn't, but it still feels like a big missed opportunity in their design space. At the end of the day the game is a lot of fun, especially given their resource constraints, and they opened it up to modding so it's hard to complain that they didn't do enough.
BRB, renaming all the pilots in my current career to Dr Teeth, Rizzo, Mahna Mahna, and Crazy Harry.
Is Darius more Gonzo for general incompetence at mission intelligence, or more Waldorf for trolling you from orbit with "There may be reinforcements out there." after they've already shot you in the back?
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
The game does favour the Steiner Scout Lance approach quite heavily with the lance size limits.
I was expecting for half the game for it to go up by 2 like Xcom.
I was really confused when it didn't.
There's mods for that too.
Doesn't count! Complaint stands for vanilla game. Sorry but mods don't get to fix design flaws this isn't Bethesda.
I mean it doesn't count for bethesda either.
I've just given up on them.
It's not a design flaw, it's design intent. They built the game around playing a single lance, explicitly choosing not to go with versions they prototyped that allowed you to play with more than 4 because they felt it slowed the pace of gameplay too much. Saying it's a flaw is like saying chess has a design flaw because pawns can't move unlimited number of spaces forward. That's not a flaw, that's just how they wanted the game to work. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion that something would be subjectively better if they did X. Fortunately such opinions are easily accommodated through mods.
They also could've gone with a tonnage limit instead of a mech limit, or more variety in mission profiles to make different weapons/mechs more viable. I can understand why they didn't, but it still feels like a big missed opportunity in their design space. At the end of the day the game is a lot of fun, especially given their resource constraints, and they opened it up to modding so it's hard to complain that they didn't do enough.
Agreed it's not a flaw. A lance is 4 mechs and the leopard is designed to drop 4 mechs so it makes perfect sense to have 4 be the limit. I've played those mods which allow you to have more mechs and a lot of the time it just feels like the game takes a lot longer than it needs to - I wasn't getting any more enjoyment out of having 6 mechs, it just felt like I had to do more work.
They did introduce a little bit of that required variety with the target designation missions which if you took all assault mechs you were almost certainly not going to be able to get to the locations in time.
But then nothing else.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
To be clear, I absolutely think it's a flaw, but I also think it's fine to accept things with flaws.
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
The tonnage limits of the flash points are good and I wish they’d leaned into them more. It leads to greater variety, though you need to make sure you have the right mix of mecha to be able to fulfill the requirements.
I'd also like to see (and I believe mods allow it) the ability to bring vehicles too. So maybe you can only drop 4 mecgs, but 2-4 vehicles too. You could even have special pilot tech trees around vehicles!
I'd also like to see (and I believe mods allow it) the ability to bring vehicles too. So maybe you can only drop 4 mecgs, but 2-4 vehicles too. You could even have special pilot tech trees around vehicles!
"What's on your second drop ship?
"That's my lance of LRM carriers. We're tired of fighting in the sun so we brought our own shade.
I don’t think vehicles make sense. Thematically in battletech vehicles aren’t used by mercs because they do not drop well. (Among a bunch of other reasons) with the exception of aero/space fighters. Vehicles are things you see in garrisons (along with some of the wonkier builds) because drop limits are not an issue.
But all mercenaries are going to have drop issues unless they’re being paid to garrison for weeks*. And putting a vehicle in a slot that could go to a mech is a terrible tradeoff. Putting a vehicle in a hangar that could go to a mech is a terrible tradeoff.
I would much prefer variable drop limits and multi-mission structure. As an example. Suppose you’re in a mission where you don’t have to evac. Well then you could load up 4, drop, and load up 4 and drop again. This would prevent you from evacing (if you evac you can only evac 4 mechs) and could spawn a counter-drop lance attack on your first lance (which must be defeated before you can continue the mission/get your second 4 mechs.)
*as an aside, one mod I would like would be that garrison missions take up days but only have a chance of spawning an engagement. Sometimes the enemy just doesn’t drop.
+1
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
The game does favour the Steiner Scout Lance approach quite heavily with the lance size limits.
I was expecting for half the game for it to go up by 2 like Xcom.
I was really confused when it didn't.
There's mods for that too.
Doesn't count! Complaint stands for vanilla game. Sorry but mods don't get to fix design flaws this isn't Bethesda.
I mean it doesn't count for bethesda either.
I've just given up on them.
It's not a design flaw, it's design intent. They built the game around playing a single lance, explicitly choosing not to go with versions they prototyped that allowed you to play with more than 4 because they felt it slowed the pace of gameplay too much. Saying it's a flaw is like saying chess has a design flaw because pawns can't move unlimited number of spaces forward. That's not a flaw, that's just how they wanted the game to work. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion that something would be subjectively better if they did X. Fortunately such opinions are easily accommodated through mods.
Hmm alright.
It still feels weird tho.
And it still has the light mechs problem.
It may be their intent but the solution still has some flaws. We've been talking about those flaws in this thread. That was the context of my comment.
Telling me it was their intent to have a light mech problem in late game as a con they accepted because of other problems they prioritised over it is all well and good but the problem doesnt magically go away. Its not like its a matter of opinion that this solution they chose devalues lighter mechs in late game. It does. An alternate solution like a tonnage limit like others have suggested could have worked for example.
Perhaps you could take more mechs but if you wanted to field all assaults in the extra slots you wouldnt have enough tonnage. Would create an interesting set of decisions. Less heavier mechs or more but smaller ones.
And yeah nah I just stick to vanilla games when I evaluate them. Start accomodating mods and it just gets too messy.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I played with that mod that allowed you to drop with an extra 3-4 mechs based on tonnage and it really didn't slow down the gameplay at all, or so I felt. Plus it allowed me to play with lighter mechs into late game as they could still serve a purpose, and I didn't have to rely on min-max'd headshot builds, which was a bonus.
So while the devs weren't wrong for keeping it to 4, for me personally adding just one more lance drastically increased the fun I was having.
Resumed a mission I had saved mid-battle. Spent 10 minutes gently batting the last Assassin around to turn the pilot into a milkshake and try to improve the salvage pool.
Forgot I had needed cash and took a 1.5 million C-Bill 0/3 salvage payout.
Posts
Sometimes that's part of the fun!
* looks at his jupyter notebooks for computing single-salvo headshot kill probabilities
* Looks at his spreadsheet filled with useful tonnages by class and weight class
<.< >.>
I know, I mostly mean when discussion get bogged down in trivialities.
LRMing a mech into unsteady for one of the bulwarked KGCs to knock it down the next activation so my MAD could needle through the cockpit (or maybe a leg) was my standard engagement protocol.
It worked, got me lots of mechs (to pilot or sell), and was fun for me, even though it probably wasn’t very efficient in actions.
*pushes glasses up*
In my 6000 word essay I'll show you why that extra 0.5 tons of capacity matters in...
Truly, we live in a utopian moment for the franchise, where the font of things to argue over is ever-flowing and the discourse feels fresh every day!
*goes back to arguing why Light Mechs are good, actually*
Please note, the agree was for your first three sentences
that last sentence is wrong and you should feel bad for it!
Now you're doing it right.
Steam: betsuni7
Irredeamable!
We're Oosiks. Of course we're irredeemable.
Steam: betsuni7
Why do Flamers have such limited ammo?!?! Why does Evasion become almost useless late game?!!
It's a well known fact that the word "oosik" is common slang for irredeemable drunkards looking for a fight on at least a half dozen periphery worlds who found their planetary distilleries mysteriously smashed and looted.
We don't specifically recall being responsible for such occurrences, but it would seem to fit a pattern.
Flamer ammo was adjusted down because of balance concerns in multiplayer.
Evasion decays so the player doesn't have to spend 37 turns trying to land a hit on fast lights. And the game design pretty clearly assumes most players will use the heaviest mechs they have at any given time to deal with being outnumbered, so keeping lights viable for the player was a less important goal than making it easier for the player to kill lights.
However, there are mods to change both if you wish.
Light mechs are awesome.
The “problem” is that the value of scouting diminishes when it represents 1/4 of your Lance
I was expecting for half the game for it to go up by 2 like Xcom.
I was really confused when it didn't.
There's mods for that too.
Flamer ammo limit is stupid, I think its because of pvp (which nobody even plays). Evasion however becomes godlike in late game with +3 dodge gyros and 10 pilotting pilots. Light mechs have no trouble surviving, it's just you can't strap a dozen autocannons into one so their damage is limited. An Annie blows up any mech from a mile away and Marauders use their aimbot 1337 c34t h4x to headshot mechs every turn so a Firestarter doing 250 damage isn't cool enough for people.
Now a Phoenixhawk PHX-1B on the other hand...(granted it's a medium, not a light, but given its mobility I feel like it kinda should be treated like one)
Doesn't count! Complaint stands for vanilla game. Sorry but mods don't get to fix design flaws this isn't Bethesda.
I mean it doesn't count for bethesda either.
I've just given up on them.
I hate losing a 9 tactics pilot at this point in the game.
At least I'll keep the Marauder. Going to be a lot harder getting through this attack and defend mission without it...
POSTSCRIPT:
Steam profile.
Getting started with BATTLETECH: Part 1 / Part 2
It's not a design flaw, it's design intent. They built the game around playing a single lance, explicitly choosing not to go with versions they prototyped that allowed you to play with more than 4 because they felt it slowed the pace of gameplay too much. Saying it's a flaw is like saying chess has a design flaw because pawns can't move unlimited number of spaces forward. That's not a flaw, that's just how they wanted the game to work. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion that something would be subjectively better if they did X. Fortunately such opinions are easily accommodated through mods.
Switch: SW-1493-0062-4053
All I thought of was Animal from the Muppets.
Steam: betsuni7
They also could've gone with a tonnage limit instead of a mech limit, or more variety in mission profiles to make different weapons/mechs more viable. I can understand why they didn't, but it still feels like a big missed opportunity in their design space. At the end of the day the game is a lot of fun, especially given their resource constraints, and they opened it up to modding so it's hard to complain that they didn't do enough.
Is Darius more Gonzo for general incompetence at mission intelligence, or more Waldorf for trolling you from orbit with "There may be reinforcements out there." after they've already shot you in the back?
Agreed it's not a flaw. A lance is 4 mechs and the leopard is designed to drop 4 mechs so it makes perfect sense to have 4 be the limit. I've played those mods which allow you to have more mechs and a lot of the time it just feels like the game takes a lot longer than it needs to - I wasn't getting any more enjoyment out of having 6 mechs, it just felt like I had to do more work.
They did introduce a little bit of that required variety with the target designation missions which if you took all assault mechs you were almost certainly not going to be able to get to the locations in time.
But then nothing else.
"What's on your second drop ship?
"That's my lance of LRM carriers. We're tired of fighting in the sun so we brought our own shade.
But all mercenaries are going to have drop issues unless they’re being paid to garrison for weeks*. And putting a vehicle in a slot that could go to a mech is a terrible tradeoff. Putting a vehicle in a hangar that could go to a mech is a terrible tradeoff.
I would much prefer variable drop limits and multi-mission structure. As an example. Suppose you’re in a mission where you don’t have to evac. Well then you could load up 4, drop, and load up 4 and drop again. This would prevent you from evacing (if you evac you can only evac 4 mechs) and could spawn a counter-drop lance attack on your first lance (which must be defeated before you can continue the mission/get your second 4 mechs.)
*as an aside, one mod I would like would be that garrison missions take up days but only have a chance of spawning an engagement. Sometimes the enemy just doesn’t drop.
Hmm alright.
It still feels weird tho.
And it still has the light mechs problem.
It may be their intent but the solution still has some flaws. We've been talking about those flaws in this thread. That was the context of my comment.
Telling me it was their intent to have a light mech problem in late game as a con they accepted because of other problems they prioritised over it is all well and good but the problem doesnt magically go away. Its not like its a matter of opinion that this solution they chose devalues lighter mechs in late game. It does. An alternate solution like a tonnage limit like others have suggested could have worked for example.
Perhaps you could take more mechs but if you wanted to field all assaults in the extra slots you wouldnt have enough tonnage. Would create an interesting set of decisions. Less heavier mechs or more but smaller ones.
And yeah nah I just stick to vanilla games when I evaluate them. Start accomodating mods and it just gets too messy.
So while the devs weren't wrong for keeping it to 4, for me personally adding just one more lance drastically increased the fun I was having.
Forgot I had needed cash and took a 1.5 million C-Bill 0/3 salvage payout.
Steam profile.
Getting started with BATTLETECH: Part 1 / Part 2