The Senate is not going to successfully convict, whether the trial starts Tuesday or starts in June, no matter how much evidence you dig up. There are not 17 Republican Senators with the stones to do the right thing and weather the hatred of the new GOP base. So if that's the case, why wait?
the only way we get there is if something more damning than we already know comes out. it's pretty hard to imagine what that might be given nothing so far has been enough to overcome their cowardice
the only reason to do the trial quickly is to fail as soon as possible and move on from it, which is not the worst idea either
unless there is enough of a consensus on the idea you can still disqualify on a majority vote without a successful conviction
The Senate is not going to successfully convict, whether the trial starts Tuesday or starts in June, no matter how much evidence you dig up. There are not 17 Republican Senators with the stones to do the right thing and weather the hatred of the new GOP base. So if that's the case, why wait?
Because in addition to the theater trial there's also that whole running the country thing that isn't theater and can actually save lives and improve quality of life for others.
Doing both requires unanimous consent in the Senate which the GOP signaled they would not give.
Why put a hold on running/fixing the country just for a theater trial?
Yeah the buried lede from that article is that dems seem to have concluded they can't do non-impeachment things in the middle of an impeachment without unanimous consent. Or not without trying to get the courts to intervene since it's a constitutional question. So not being able to chew gum and walk really limits your options.
So when do we think we're getting state-level charges? I know any federal stuff is waiting for DOJ to take a look (as well as GA), but NY AG has been making noise but I'm not seeing any explosions. I was promised explosions by now!
Eddy on
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and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
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augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
So when do we think we're getting state-level charges? I know any federal stuff is waiting for DOJ to take a look (as well as GA), but NY AG has been making noise but I'm not seeing any explosions. I was promised explosions by now!
For Trump? IANAL but I expect everyone is waiting to see if there's evidence Trump literally planned the murder of congress and his own VP before moving on to his various financial crimes.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Trump can’t claim executive privilege to dodge discovery anymore or use the attorney general as his personal lawyer so just be patient.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
The Senate is not going to successfully convict, whether the trial starts Tuesday or starts in June, no matter how much evidence you dig up. There are not 17 Republican Senators with the stones to do the right thing and weather the hatred of the new GOP base. So if that's the case, why wait?
the only way we get there is if something more damning than we already know comes out. it's pretty hard to imagine what that might be given nothing so far has been enough to overcome their cowardice
the only reason to do the trial quickly is to fail as soon as possible and move on from it, which is not the worst idea either
unless there is enough of a consensus on the idea you can still disqualify on a majority vote without a successful conviction
The Senate is not going to successfully convict, whether the trial starts Tuesday or starts in June, no matter how much evidence you dig up. There are not 17 Republican Senators with the stones to do the right thing and weather the hatred of the new GOP base. So if that's the case, why wait?
the only way we get there is if something more damning than we already know comes out. it's pretty hard to imagine what that might be given nothing so far has been enough to overcome their cowardice
the only reason to do the trial quickly is to fail as soon as possible and move on from it, which is not the worst idea either
unless there is enough of a consensus on the idea you can still disqualify on a majority vote without a successful conviction
Has there been any news on who's responsible for the slowdown of any serious response to the insurrection? If that's in any way linked to the White House having more news of that investigation come out before or during the trial would be very helpful in convincing some Republicans to punish him.
Trump can’t claim executive privilege to dodge discovery anymore or use the attorney general as his personal lawyer so just be patient.
I'd bet you Several American Dollars he tries to claim privilege because he was President at the time.
I just hope, somewhat desperately, they make him testify under oath in front of a panel of lawyers and CSPAN.
Trump can fuck a rake, Biden is President now and has total authority to declassify anything he wants. If “executive privilege” gets brought up, it’ll be for media talking points only to repeated ad infinitum, but not something that can tangibly interfere with the trial accessing Trump’s crimes.
I’m unsure if Trump still has 5th amendment rights in an impeach trial or not. I assume he does, so he may not have to testify if he doesn’t want to. Not that he’ll be able to keep his mouth shut, so I’m not too worried about it.
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Trump can’t claim executive privilege to dodge discovery anymore or use the attorney general as his personal lawyer so just be patient.
I'd bet you Several American Dollars he tries to claim privilege because he was President at the time.
I just hope, somewhat desperately, they make him testify under oath in front of a panel of lawyers and CSPAN.
Trump can fuck a rake, Biden is President now and has total authority to declassify anything he wants. If “executive privilege” gets brought up, it’ll be for media talking points only to repeated ad infinitum, but not something that can tangibly interfere with the trial accessing Trump’s crimes.
I’m unsure if Trump still has 5th amendment rights in an impeach trial or not. I assume he does, so he may not have to testify if he doesn’t want to. Not that he’ll be able to keep his mouth shut, so I’m not too worried about it.
Executive privilege isn't a classification thing. I don't know if a former President can legally claim privilege over something that happened during their presidency, or if a sitting president can nullify such a claim, because it's never happened.
But actual legality aside, nobody ever actually claimed privilege last go-around. They all just claimed they couldn't testify on the basis that it would impact Trump's ability to claim privilege. And nobody - Democrats included - was ever willing to force the issue.
I absolutely expect Trump or one of his lackies to try to use the same trick again. Great old ones willing it doesn't work this time.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
the NY State stuff is all from before he was President anyway isn't it?
So what's the deal with this judge just declaring that Trump's tax returns can't be turned over for an investigation without notifying his lawyers 72 hours notice
What... the? Trump's just "some guy", this means anyone who's ever had the federal government use their taxes against them without telling them they were under investigation can just sue the federal government
So what's the deal with this judge just declaring that Trump's tax returns can't be turned over for an investigation without notifying his lawyers 72 hours notice
What... the? Trump's just "some guy", this means anyone who's ever had the federal government use their taxes against them without telling them they were under investigation can just sue the federal government
Trump can’t claim executive privilege to dodge discovery anymore or use the attorney general as his personal lawyer so just be patient.
I'd bet you Several American Dollars he tries to claim privilege because he was President at the time.
I just hope, somewhat desperately, they make him testify under oath in front of a panel of lawyers and CSPAN.
Trump can fuck a rake, Biden is President now and has total authority to declassify anything he wants. If “executive privilege” gets brought up, it’ll be for media talking points only to repeated ad infinitum, but not something that can tangibly interfere with the trial accessing Trump’s crimes.
I’m unsure if Trump still has 5th amendment rights in an impeach trial or not. I assume he does, so he may not have to testify if he doesn’t want to. Not that he’ll be able to keep his mouth shut, so I’m not too worried about it.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Impeachment is not a criminal case. I think there's a strong argument that there is no 5th Amendment protection during an impeachment.
So what's the deal with this judge just declaring that Trump's tax returns can't be turned over for an investigation without notifying his lawyers 72 hours notice
What... the? Trump's just "some guy", this means anyone who's ever had the federal government use their taxes against them without telling them they were under investigation can just sue the federal government
waaa
There are two court systems in this country
There's at least three. Unless we're saying the rich person court system just doesn't exist.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Trump can’t claim executive privilege to dodge discovery anymore or use the attorney general as his personal lawyer so just be patient.
I'd bet you Several American Dollars he tries to claim privilege because he was President at the time.
I just hope, somewhat desperately, they make him testify under oath in front of a panel of lawyers and CSPAN.
Trump can fuck a rake, Biden is President now and has total authority to declassify anything he wants. If “executive privilege” gets brought up, it’ll be for media talking points only to repeated ad infinitum, but not something that can tangibly interfere with the trial accessing Trump’s crimes.
I’m unsure if Trump still has 5th amendment rights in an impeach trial or not. I assume he does, so he may not have to testify if he doesn’t want to. Not that he’ll be able to keep his mouth shut, so I’m not too worried about it.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Impeachment is not a criminal case. I think there's a strong argument that there is no 5th Amendment protection during an impeachment.
The impeachment isn't a criminal trial but some of the stuff Trump's been impeached about are probably felonies. I don't think he can be compelled to give testimony under oath before congress if that testimony is a confession of guilt of a crime. But that's definitely a constitutional law scholar question, not a random dude on the internet question, and I'm pretty sure congress would just opt for, "Okay, we're going to just assume that's legal" if Trump's lawyer says he's pleading the 5th.
I remember Clinton testified, but I cannot recall if he did so voluntarily or not. Are there any cases from previous impeachments, not just Presidential, that establishes precedent that the 5th doesn’t cover impeachment testimony, or is it another one of those norms that has never been challenged before and begging to be tested?
It’s just classic Trump to attempt yet another constitutional crisis even out of office as a last “fuck you” to the Nation that rejected him.
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I remember Clinton testified, but I cannot recall if he did so voluntarily or not. Are there any cases from previous impeachments, not just Presidential, that establishes precedent that the 5th doesn’t cover impeachment testimony, or is it another one of those norms that has never been challenged before and begging to be tested?
It’s just classic Trump to attempt yet another constitutional crisis even out of office as a last “fuck you” to the Nation that rejected him.
Clinton was subpoenaed to testify, he didn't want to do it. But he also wasn't on the hook for obvious felonies. Like, his impeachment vote was because he lied about his affair to Congress. If he'd just come in and said, "Yes, I had sex with that woman, Miss Lewenski. And I liked it. And I carved a notch in the Resolute Desk after." there wouldn't have been potential follow-on criminal charges.
Nobody's ever plead the 5th in an impeachment but this is literally the 4th impeachment we've ever had and the 3rd on was also Trump. Nobody's ever been through an impeachment trial after their presidency, either.
So here's a question...if Trump is no longer president and they make him testify at his impeachment trial, if/when he perjures himself, can they just charge him for perjury like a regular person regardless of the results of the impeachment vote?
So here's a question...if Trump is no longer president and they make him testify at his impeachment trial, if/when he perjures himself, can they just charge him for perjury like a regular person regardless of the results of the impeachment vote?
US Code 1621. Perjury before congress when under oath is punishable by a fine, imprisonment of not more than 5 years, or both. Trump would pay a fine.
So what's the deal with this judge just declaring that Trump's tax returns can't be turned over for an investigation without notifying his lawyers 72 hours notice
What... the? Trump's just "some guy", this means anyone who's ever had the federal government use their taxes against them without telling them they were under investigation can just sue the federal government
waaa
Yeah... I expect that to be appealed? That's absurd.
So here's a question...if Trump is no longer president and they make him testify at his impeachment trial, if/when he perjures himself, can they just charge him for perjury like a regular person regardless of the results of the impeachment vote?
US Code 1621. Perjury before congress when under oath is punishable by a fine, imprisonment of not more than 5 years, or both. Trump would pay a fine.
Yeah, but at this point he’ll likely plea the fifth to all questions have his lawyer do the majority of the talking call it a witch hunt and fake news outside and some other shitty things, and then leave. He can plea the fifth to every question asked.
So here's a question...if Trump is no longer president and they make him testify at his impeachment trial, if/when he perjures himself, can they just charge him for perjury like a regular person regardless of the results of the impeachment vote?
US Code 1621. Perjury before congress when under oath is punishable by a fine, imprisonment of not more than 5 years, or both. Trump would pay a fine.
Yeah, but at this point he’ll likely plea the fifth to all questions have his lawyer do the majority of the talking call it a witch hunt and fake news outside and some other shitty things, and then leave. He can plea the fifth to every question asked.
I really hope the media run the clips of him and Republican Senators saying you don’t plead the Fifth if you've got nothing to hide.
While I'd rather the Fifth was treated properly as a safeguard, I'm fucking tired of the hypocrisy of these fuckers being "Rule for thee, not for me" all tge fucking time.
Not gonna stop them being assholes, might as well have them be held to the same public standard.
So what's the deal with this judge just declaring that Trump's tax returns can't be turned over for an investigation without notifying his lawyers 72 hours notice
What... the? Trump's just "some guy", this means anyone who's ever had the federal government use their taxes against them without telling them they were under investigation can just sue the federal government
waaa
Yeah... I expect that to be appealed? That's absurd.
If Democrats weren't Democrats, they would ignore the judge, it's one fuckin guy and the law says "Shall provide" and nothing about "...after they tell the guy's lawyers"
Trump can’t claim executive privilege to dodge discovery anymore or use the attorney general as his personal lawyer so just be patient.
I'd bet you Several American Dollars he tries to claim privilege because he was President at the time.
I just hope, somewhat desperately, they make him testify under oath in front of a panel of lawyers and CSPAN.
Trump can fuck a rake, Biden is President now and has total authority to declassify anything he wants. If “executive privilege” gets brought up, it’ll be for media talking points only to repeated ad infinitum, but not something that can tangibly interfere with the trial accessing Trump’s crimes.
I’m unsure if Trump still has 5th amendment rights in an impeach trial or not. I assume he does, so he may not have to testify if he doesn’t want to. Not that he’ll be able to keep his mouth shut, so I’m not too worried about it.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Impeachment is not a criminal case. I think there's a strong argument that there is no 5th Amendment protection during an impeachment.
This is true, but while IANAL I believe the only circumstances that forbid you from invoking the 5th are:
1: when you have made a deal with the prosecution to cooperate; whether its in your own case or if you are brought in to testify against someone else.
2. You have made a deal for immunity for a particular act
3. You have accepted a pardon for a specific act
The latter cases only apply with testimony specific to those acts
As another Senate impeachment trial of former President Donald Trump looms on the horizon, House Republicans stepped up their pressure campaign against GOP Conference Chairwoman Liz Cheney to resign from her leadership post.
Florida Republican Rep. Matt Gaetz plans to rally with local Republicans in Cheyenne on Thursday to urge the Wyoming Republican congresswoman to step down as a result of her voting in favor of Trump’s second impeachment and accusing him of “betrayal” to the office of the presidency.
In a tweet promoting the event, Gaetz said, “I do not want her job. I unequivocally am not seeking a position in House Leadership. I also know Wyoming can do better.”
A Cheney spokesperson shot back at Gaetz, telling the Washington Examiner, "Rep. Gaetz can leave his beauty bag at home. In Wyoming, the men don’t wear make-up.”
Christ, I can't stand any of them
Edit: I can also guarantee you that her father definitely wore makeup like pretty much everybody does when on TV
Couscous on
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
edited January 2021
That line will play in a lot of Wyoming, Liz knows her constituency and she's generally very popular with them. I also know from perusing local news pages from back home that I'm still subscribed to that a lot of the older and less extreme republicans in the state are behind her. I think Gaetz is sticking his hand on a hornet nest looking for honey, here; ill advised, with very little chance of any payoff besides maybe learning a lesson, but I doubt it.
Edit: also, hahaha fuck yeah devour each other lol
Metzger Meister on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Federal law enforcement officials are examining a number of threats aimed at members of Congress as the second trial of former President Donald Trump nears, including ominous chatter about killing legislators or attacking them outside of the U.S. Capitol, a U.S. official told The Associated Press.
The threats, and concerns that armed protesters could return to sack the Capitol anew, have prompted the U.S. Capitol Police and other federal law enforcement to insist thousands of National Guard troops remain in Washington as the Senate moves forward with plans for Trump's trial, the official said
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Wait are we gonna start taking death threats on the internet seriously? So we're gonna have to designate some infrastructure and facilities for the guard that's gonna be stationed in the Capitol for years.
Wait are we gonna start taking death threats on the internet seriously? So we're gonna have to designate some infrastructure and facilities for the guard that's gonna be stationed in the Capitol for years.
Presumably they'll just be there for however long it takes to ramp up Capitol Police from being essentially mall cops for entitled tourists sinecures to an anti-riot police force akin to uniformed Secret Service.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Wait are we gonna start taking death threats on the internet seriously? So we're gonna have to designate some infrastructure and facilities for the guard that's gonna be stationed in the Capitol for years.
Realizing that death threats on the internet are bad (even if they don't lead to real world violence) would be super great. Agreed that they need better accommodations for the National guard.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
That line will play in a lot of Wyoming, Liz knows her constituency and she's generally very popular with them. I also know from perusing local news pages from back home that I'm still subscribed to that a lot of the older and less extreme republicans in the state are behind her. I think Gaetz is sticking his hand on a hornet nest looking for honey, here; ill advised, with very little chance of any payoff besides maybe learning a lesson, but I doubt it.
Edit: also, hahaha fuck yeah devour each other lol
I think they're jsut trying to get rid of her in leadership to put another MAGA Chud in a senior spot
Oh no we definitely should have been taking them seriously, the fact that we haven't for the prior 3 decades of the internet is part of how we've gotten where we are. The issue is just so wide spread that routing it out and stopping people from continuing the practice is going to take considerable distributed effort.
Especially with places like gab and parler existing or trying to exist.
Sleep on
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TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
The real question is why we're deciding that death threats are national news now. Why weren't they national news when people of color in the legislature were getting them for years?
They’re national news because they’re about the impeachment. And right after internet threats of this variety culminated in an attempted coup for which the President is on trial for instigating..
Also “internet chatter” is different than “internet threats”. Though there is reason to believe both are more serious at this particular moment due to the present circumstances.
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There's like three more damning things a day.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/us/politics/jeffrey-clark-trump-justice-department-election.html
This is the latest one.
Because in addition to the theater trial there's also that whole running the country thing that isn't theater and can actually save lives and improve quality of life for others.
Doing both requires unanimous consent in the Senate which the GOP signaled they would not give.
Why put a hold on running/fixing the country just for a theater trial?
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
For Trump? IANAL but I expect everyone is waiting to see if there's evidence Trump literally planned the murder of congress and his own VP before moving on to his various financial crimes.
Sure, but presumably someone Schumer can talk to already knows this shit. The damning things are being leaked, not announced in press conferences.
it's not about what Senators know
it's about what the public knows
I’ll agree that that delaying the trial works in the republicans favor now
Let’s revisit this tomorrow and every day until the trial and see if that rings true
I suspect it will not, even if Republicans don’t vote to convict
I'd bet you Several American Dollars he tries to claim privilege because he was President at the time.
I just hope, somewhat desperately, they make him testify under oath in front of a panel of lawyers and CSPAN.
Trump can fuck a rake, Biden is President now and has total authority to declassify anything he wants. If “executive privilege” gets brought up, it’ll be for media talking points only to repeated ad infinitum, but not something that can tangibly interfere with the trial accessing Trump’s crimes.
I’m unsure if Trump still has 5th amendment rights in an impeach trial or not. I assume he does, so he may not have to testify if he doesn’t want to. Not that he’ll be able to keep his mouth shut, so I’m not too worried about it.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Executive privilege isn't a classification thing. I don't know if a former President can legally claim privilege over something that happened during their presidency, or if a sitting president can nullify such a claim, because it's never happened.
But actual legality aside, nobody ever actually claimed privilege last go-around. They all just claimed they couldn't testify on the basis that it would impact Trump's ability to claim privilege. And nobody - Democrats included - was ever willing to force the issue.
I absolutely expect Trump or one of his lackies to try to use the same trick again. Great old ones willing it doesn't work this time.
What... the? Trump's just "some guy", this means anyone who's ever had the federal government use their taxes against them without telling them they were under investigation can just sue the federal government
waaa
There are two court systems in this country
Impeachment is not a criminal case. I think there's a strong argument that there is no 5th Amendment protection during an impeachment.
There's at least three. Unless we're saying the rich person court system just doesn't exist.
The impeachment isn't a criminal trial but some of the stuff Trump's been impeached about are probably felonies. I don't think he can be compelled to give testimony under oath before congress if that testimony is a confession of guilt of a crime. But that's definitely a constitutional law scholar question, not a random dude on the internet question, and I'm pretty sure congress would just opt for, "Okay, we're going to just assume that's legal" if Trump's lawyer says he's pleading the 5th.
It’s just classic Trump to attempt yet another constitutional crisis even out of office as a last “fuck you” to the Nation that rejected him.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Clinton was subpoenaed to testify, he didn't want to do it. But he also wasn't on the hook for obvious felonies. Like, his impeachment vote was because he lied about his affair to Congress. If he'd just come in and said, "Yes, I had sex with that woman, Miss Lewenski. And I liked it. And I carved a notch in the Resolute Desk after." there wouldn't have been potential follow-on criminal charges.
Nobody's ever plead the 5th in an impeachment but this is literally the 4th impeachment we've ever had and the 3rd on was also Trump. Nobody's ever been through an impeachment trial after their presidency, either.
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US Code 1621. Perjury before congress when under oath is punishable by a fine, imprisonment of not more than 5 years, or both. Trump would pay a fine.
Yeah... I expect that to be appealed? That's absurd.
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I really hope the media run the clips of him and Republican Senators saying you don’t plead the Fifth if you've got nothing to hide.
While I'd rather the Fifth was treated properly as a safeguard, I'm fucking tired of the hypocrisy of these fuckers being "Rule for thee, not for me" all tge fucking time.
Not gonna stop them being assholes, might as well have them be held to the same public standard.
If Democrats weren't Democrats, they would ignore the judge, it's one fuckin guy and the law says "Shall provide" and nothing about "...after they tell the guy's lawyers"
This is true, but while IANAL I believe the only circumstances that forbid you from invoking the 5th are:
1: when you have made a deal with the prosecution to cooperate; whether its in your own case or if you are brought in to testify against someone else.
2. You have made a deal for immunity for a particular act
3. You have accepted a pardon for a specific act
The latter cases only apply with testimony specific to those acts
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/republicans-amp-up-push-to-oust-cheney-from-leadership Christ, I can't stand any of them
Edit: I can also guarantee you that her father definitely wore makeup like pretty much everybody does when on TV
Edit: also, hahaha fuck yeah devour each other lol
Presumably they'll just be there for however long it takes to ramp up Capitol Police from being essentially mall cops for entitled tourists sinecures to an anti-riot police force akin to uniformed Secret Service.
Realizing that death threats on the internet are bad (even if they don't lead to real world violence) would be super great. Agreed that they need better accommodations for the National guard.
We should have always taken them seriously
I think they're jsut trying to get rid of her in leadership to put another MAGA Chud in a senior spot
Especially with places like gab and parler existing or trying to exist.
Oh wait!
The answer to that question is racism.
Also “internet chatter” is different than “internet threats”. Though there is reason to believe both are more serious at this particular moment due to the present circumstances.