Marathon, I'm not even sure where you are going with this conversation anymore, it reads like you are arguing both sides. Biden spending millions is peanuts against the bigger problems. It's trying to put a bandaid on the latest laceration we've gotten from trying to climb over razor wire. Yes it's something, no it's not enough and it's just treating a symptom. He should be using this situation to rile up public support for an actual solution. As a reminder to folks, leaders, even politicians aren't just beholden to the "will" of the public. They have a duty to also try and lead and drive the will of the public.
I’m acknowledging that while things are trying to improve there is still a ways to go. There’s a middle ground between denying anything is wrong and being relentlessly negative. I don’t believe either extreme is accurate and am just voicing that opinion. People are free to disagree, but I’m not going to be berated into agreeing with people.
My dude it only seems “relentlessly negative” because the situation, when described as it stands, is absolutely galling. There is not a nice, friendly way to describe a system that locks away immigrants, packs them into overcrowded facilities, restricts their movements within said facilities, all to create a warning for anyone who would dare cross the border without submitted to our arcane nightmare of an immigration “process,” purposefully designed to be antagonistic and restrictive to allowing folks to move here
Biden is doing what he said he would do, and it’s in line with what the majority of the public wants.
Criticizing him for not also massively overhauling by now or for changing policy to be essentially open-borders is criticizing Biden for not living up to a standard he never said he was aiming for.
Tell me what he said he would do, and how he is doing it, and how it does not line up with what I said he said he would and is doing. I have quoted people who feel lied to by Biden's rhetoric during the election and his statements and actions (or inactions) since taking office, so obviously some people don't feel he's doing what he said he would do.
And do not say that I am criticizing him for something I am not criticizing him for, because nowhere have I ever said he ran on open borders or whatever you're trying to imply/suggest.
That’s exactly my point, you’re misunderstanding me. Biden never ran on a policy of open borders and you never said he did. But Biden following current laws, as humanely as he can, looks like the situation we have now. People who come to the border will continue to either be sent back, or taken in as refugees and settled, depending on their situation.
Cool so we're on the same page, in that I am criticizing the current laws. Because the current laws are the same laws that Trump used, and are the same laws that Obama used. I am being critical not just of Biden, but also of Trump, and of Obama, and of W as well - but not just the presidents dating back to the creation of ICE. I am also being critical of the United States government writ large that, with overwhelming bipartisan legislative approval that created these organizations and set into motion the events that are currently unfolding here. For all the criticism that the Democrats had for the operations of ICE and DHS under Trump, they didn't have much to say about Obama's record-high deportations or proposed any sort of reform or, yes, abolishment of those organizations.
I'm angry as hell because this is systemic rot that cannot just be neatly be dumped in the laps of the Republican party while excusing the Democratic party from any guilt and responsibility, yet that is what is occurring again and again in this thread.
These changes to ICE and CBP policy are assuredly not fixes to all of the problems of the organizations, but perhaps they qualify as "any sort of reform"?
Biden issuing "new guidelines" to ICE is laughable. Obama issued guidelines. Hell, the courts issued mandates. ICE has openly defied it all and faced no repercussions for doing so. You cannot expect an organization that is rotten to its core to be fixed by any half-measures or even anything less than full dismantling.
Executive orders overriding some of Trump's executive orders is not reform. Executive orders themselves cannot achieve any appreciable sort of actual reform because they are so easily altered or ceased.
Your final link about expanding housing is telling agencies to find more space for kids, which includes maybe opening more overflow facilities (which as I linked to before, include sites on military bases where toxic chemicals have been illegally dumped) and providing beds that were deliberately kept empty in order to comply with COVID-19 social distancing guidelines.
None of this is fixing the underlying issues, or even really addressing them. It's putting a bandaid on the gaping chest wound and asking for credit for trying to save the patient's life.
Biden is doing what he said he would do, and it’s in line with what the majority of the public wants.
Criticizing him for not also massively overhauling by now or for changing policy to be essentially open-borders is criticizing Biden for not living up to a standard he never said he was aiming for.
Children's shelters 1700% overloaded during a pandemic (and that's when they FINALLY allowed a reporter in, 3 months later) is a large part of what he's being criticized for.
To be clear, if it was that bad prior to those 3 months, and he didn't have the resources to fix it, he should have been blasting that out saying "THIS IS AN EMERGENCY, WE NEED FUNDS TO FIX THIS FAST"
And they are working to make it better. Nobody thinks what’s happening is acceptable, even Biden. We all wish it was happening faster.
Is there any actual evidence for this or is this just blind faith? Like, what concrete steps has Biden's admin taken so far?
His administration is spending millions to temporarily house some migrants in hotels, which is a thing I believe people here were saying he should. That’s one thing. It’s not perfect and I’m sure more could be done. But they are trying.
If more can be done than they aren't doing enough. You don't get a pass by doing the bare minimum or token efforts that don't remotely address the issue. There is clearly a major humanitarian crisis occurring in these camps, a fact that I'm pretty sure the Buden campaign agreed with. Did they come in and treat this situation as a top priority as we should expect them to? I will concede that it is possible that they have and additional capacity is being built as fast as physically possible, and they have done everything they can to speed up the process of getting minors to family in the US, etc. It's even possible that Biden and his cabinet have issued all the necessary orders and lower level officials are dragging their feet and can't be replaced easily. But I'm going to need to see some proof because it is far more probable in my mind that this is just not a top priority for this admin and not looking weak on immigration is more important to them than human well-being.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Biden is doing what he said he would do, and it’s in line with what the majority of the public wants.
Criticizing him for not also massively overhauling by now or for changing policy to be essentially open-borders is criticizing Biden for not living up to a standard he never said he was aiming for.
Tell me what he said he would do, and how he is doing it, and how it does not line up with what I said he said he would and is doing. I have quoted people who feel lied to by Biden's rhetoric during the election and his statements and actions (or inactions) since taking office, so obviously some people don't feel he's doing what he said he would do.
And do not say that I am criticizing him for something I am not criticizing him for, because nowhere have I ever said he ran on open borders or whatever you're trying to imply/suggest.
That’s exactly my point, you’re misunderstanding me. Biden never ran on a policy of open borders and you never said he did. But Biden following current laws, as humanely as he can, looks like the situation we have now. People who come to the border will continue to either be sent back, or taken in as refugees and settled, depending on their situation.
Cool so we're on the same page, in that I am criticizing the current laws. Because the current laws are the same laws that Trump used, and are the same laws that Obama used. I am being critical not just of Biden, but also of Trump, and of Obama, and of W as well - but not just the presidents dating back to the creation of ICE. I am also being critical of the United States government writ large that, with overwhelming bipartisan legislative approval that created these organizations and set into motion the events that are currently unfolding here. For all the criticism that the Democrats had for the operations of ICE and DHS under Trump, they didn't have much to say about Obama's record-high deportations or proposed any sort of reform or, yes, abolishment of those organizations.
I'm angry as hell because this is systemic rot that cannot just be neatly be dumped in the laps of the Republican party while excusing the Democratic party from any guilt and responsibility, yet that is what is occurring again and again in this thread.
These changes to ICE and CBP policy are assuredly not fixes to all of the problems of the organizations, but perhaps they qualify as "any sort of reform"?
Aye. Biden has been doing things to try and fix issues with the immigration system within the scope of his actual immigration policies. If you are expecting Biden to go well beyond both what he promised and what the public supports on these issues, you are going to be disappointed.
And the comments about Obama's "record high deportations" are somewhat misleading. There's a bunch of different numbers you can go over on this front. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration
And again, Obama is working within the framework of his own immigration policies that I'm sure are not what some people want either.
Biden issuing "new guidelines" to ICE is laughable. Obama issued guidelines. Hell, the courts issued mandates. ICE has openly defied it all and faced no repercussions for doing so. You cannot expect an organization that is rotten to its core to be fixed by any half-measures or even anything less than full dismantling.
Executive orders overriding some of Trump's executive orders is not reform. Executive orders themselves cannot achieve any appreciable sort of actual reform because they are so easily altered or ceased.
Your final link about expanding housing is telling agencies to find more space for kids, which includes maybe opening more overflow facilities (which as I linked to before, include sites on military bases where toxic chemicals have been illegally dumped) and providing beds that were deliberately kept empty in order to comply with COVID-19 social distancing guidelines.
None of this is fixing the underlying issues, or even really addressing them. It's putting a bandaid on the gaping chest wound and asking for credit for trying to save the patient's life.
So that's the essential issue. Executive actions can only do so much, and legislation takes time and a functional senate. And with some emergent problems (or emergent escalations of existing problems) the infrastructure to fix the issue simply isn't there.
It's frustrating. It's totally right to be mad about.
But you're asking for what they're doing, and what they're doing is either stuff that can be done quickly, or not implemented yet.
Deportations are sharply down, and would be zero but for the lawsuit. The current policies are more restrictive on ICE than they ever were under Obama.
There are distinct, measurable differences between active malice and a good faith effort to fix problems. We should be able to agree on that, just as we agree that much more needs to be done before things are acceptable.
Marathon, I'm not even sure where you are going with this conversation anymore, it reads like you are arguing both sides. Biden spending millions is peanuts against the bigger problems. It's trying to put a bandaid on the latest laceration we've gotten from trying to climb over razor wire. Yes it's something, no it's not enough and it's just treating a symptom. He should be using this situation to rile up public support for an actual solution. As a reminder to folks, leaders, even politicians aren't just beholden to the "will" of the public. They have a duty to also try and lead and drive the will of the public.
I’m acknowledging that while things are trying to improve there is still a ways to go. There’s a middle ground between denying anything is wrong and being relentlessly negative. I don’t believe either extreme is accurate and am just voicing that opinion. People are free to disagree, but I’m not going to be berated into agreeing with people.
My dude it only seems “relentlessly negative” because the situation, when described as it stands, is absolutely galling. There is not a nice, friendly way to describe a system that locks away immigrants, packs them into overcrowded facilities, restricts their movements within said facilities, all to create a warning for anyone who would dare cross the border without submitted to our arcane nightmare of an immigration “process,” purposefully designed to be antagonistic and restrictive to allowing folks to move here
What indication is there exactly that Biden wants his immigration policy ot serve as a "warning to anyone who would dare cross the border"? Like, we've got lots of info on how Trump wanted to make the immigration system shittier because he (stupidly and falsely) believed that would deter immigration. I've seen nothing that indicates Biden sees this as a lever to deter immigration and his repeated comments on the way to stop or slow down these people coming is to improve the domestic situation back where they come suggest he takes the opposite view on what the causes are here.
Biden is doing what he said he would do, and it’s in line with what the majority of the public wants.
Criticizing him for not also massively overhauling by now or for changing policy to be essentially open-borders is criticizing Biden for not living up to a standard he never said he was aiming for.
Tell me what he said he would do, and how he is doing it, and how it does not line up with what I said he said he would and is doing. I have quoted people who feel lied to by Biden's rhetoric during the election and his statements and actions (or inactions) since taking office, so obviously some people don't feel he's doing what he said he would do.
And do not say that I am criticizing him for something I am not criticizing him for, because nowhere have I ever said he ran on open borders or whatever you're trying to imply/suggest.
That’s exactly my point, you’re misunderstanding me. Biden never ran on a policy of open borders and you never said he did. But Biden following current laws, as humanely as he can, looks like the situation we have now. People who come to the border will continue to either be sent back, or taken in as refugees and settled, depending on their situation.
Cool so we're on the same page, in that I am criticizing the current laws. Because the current laws are the same laws that Trump used, and are the same laws that Obama used. I am being critical not just of Biden, but also of Trump, and of Obama, and of W as well - but not just the presidents dating back to the creation of ICE. I am also being critical of the United States government writ large that, with overwhelming bipartisan legislative approval that created these organizations and set into motion the events that are currently unfolding here. For all the criticism that the Democrats had for the operations of ICE and DHS under Trump, they didn't have much to say about Obama's record-high deportations or proposed any sort of reform or, yes, abolishment of those organizations.
I'm angry as hell because this is systemic rot that cannot just be neatly be dumped in the laps of the Republican party while excusing the Democratic party from any guilt and responsibility, yet that is what is occurring again and again in this thread.
These changes to ICE and CBP policy are assuredly not fixes to all of the problems of the organizations, but perhaps they qualify as "any sort of reform"?
Aye. Biden has been doing things to try and fix issues with the immigration system within the scope of his actual immigration policies. If you are expecting Biden to go well beyond both what he promised and what the public supports on these issues, you are going to be disappointed.
And the comments about Obama's "record high deportations" are somewhat misleading. There's a bunch of different numbers you can go over on this front. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration
And again, Obama is working within the framework of his own immigration policies that I'm sure are not what some people want either.
And again, if Biden gave two shits, he could be using his soapbox (one of the biggest in the world) to work on drumming up that public support. Anyone who says that politicians can only do what the public wants COMPLETELY missed the run up to Iraq 2.0
Biden is doing what he said he would do, and it’s in line with what the majority of the public wants.
Criticizing him for not also massively overhauling by now or for changing policy to be essentially open-borders is criticizing Biden for not living up to a standard he never said he was aiming for.
Tell me what he said he would do, and how he is doing it, and how it does not line up with what I said he said he would and is doing. I have quoted people who feel lied to by Biden's rhetoric during the election and his statements and actions (or inactions) since taking office, so obviously some people don't feel he's doing what he said he would do.
And do not say that I am criticizing him for something I am not criticizing him for, because nowhere have I ever said he ran on open borders or whatever you're trying to imply/suggest.
That’s exactly my point, you’re misunderstanding me. Biden never ran on a policy of open borders and you never said he did. But Biden following current laws, as humanely as he can, looks like the situation we have now. People who come to the border will continue to either be sent back, or taken in as refugees and settled, depending on their situation.
Cool so we're on the same page, in that I am criticizing the current laws. Because the current laws are the same laws that Trump used, and are the same laws that Obama used. I am being critical not just of Biden, but also of Trump, and of Obama, and of W as well - but not just the presidents dating back to the creation of ICE. I am also being critical of the United States government writ large that, with overwhelming bipartisan legislative approval that created these organizations and set into motion the events that are currently unfolding here. For all the criticism that the Democrats had for the operations of ICE and DHS under Trump, they didn't have much to say about Obama's record-high deportations or proposed any sort of reform or, yes, abolishment of those organizations.
I'm angry as hell because this is systemic rot that cannot just be neatly be dumped in the laps of the Republican party while excusing the Democratic party from any guilt and responsibility, yet that is what is occurring again and again in this thread.
These changes to ICE and CBP policy are assuredly not fixes to all of the problems of the organizations, but perhaps they qualify as "any sort of reform"?
Aye. Biden has been doing things to try and fix issues with the immigration system within the scope of his actual immigration policies. If you are expecting Biden to go well beyond both what he promised and what the public supports on these issues, you are going to be disappointed.
And the comments about Obama's "record high deportations" are somewhat misleading. There's a bunch of different numbers you can go over on this front. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration
And again, Obama is working within the framework of his own immigration policies that I'm sure are not what some people want either.
And again, if Biden gave two shits, he could be using his soapbox (one of the biggest in the world) to work on drumming up that public support. Anyone who says that politicians can only do what the public wants COMPLETELY missed the run up to Iraq 2.0
This is an unreasonable standard for evidence that a president "gives two shits" on an issue. If only because a huge public opinion push can only really exist for one issue at a time. That issue is currently public health.
Marathon, I'm not even sure where you are going with this conversation anymore, it reads like you are arguing both sides. Biden spending millions is peanuts against the bigger problems. It's trying to put a bandaid on the latest laceration we've gotten from trying to climb over razor wire. Yes it's something, no it's not enough and it's just treating a symptom. He should be using this situation to rile up public support for an actual solution. As a reminder to folks, leaders, even politicians aren't just beholden to the "will" of the public. They have a duty to also try and lead and drive the will of the public.
I’m acknowledging that while things are trying to improve there is still a ways to go. There’s a middle ground between denying anything is wrong and being relentlessly negative. I don’t believe either extreme is accurate and am just voicing that opinion. People are free to disagree, but I’m not going to be berated into agreeing with people.
My dude it only seems “relentlessly negative” because the situation, when described as it stands, is absolutely galling. There is not a nice, friendly way to describe a system that locks away immigrants, packs them into overcrowded facilities, restricts their movements within said facilities, all to create a warning for anyone who would dare cross the border without submitted to our arcane nightmare of an immigration “process,” purposefully designed to be antagonistic and restrictive to allowing folks to move here
What indication is there exactly that Biden wants his immigration policy ot serve as a "warning to anyone who would dare cross the border"? Like, we've got lots of info on how Trump wanted to make the immigration system shittier because he (stupidly and falsely) believed that would deter immigration. I've seen nothing that indicates Biden sees this as a lever to deter immigration and his repeated comments on the way to stop or slow down these people coming is to improve the domestic situation back where they come suggest he takes the opposite view on what the causes are here.
1) the part where that has been an intrinsic feature of US immigration policy since around when our great grandparents were born, give or take
2) the part where he took his answer to ABC News’ George Stephanopolous saying that immigrants making the continental trek up and across the border should not do so:
Yes, I can say quite clearly: Don't come over," Biden said during the wide-ranging interview in Darby, Pennsylvania.
"Don't leave your town or city or community," he added.
Biden is doing what he said he would do, and it’s in line with what the majority of the public wants.
Criticizing him for not also massively overhauling by now or for changing policy to be essentially open-borders is criticizing Biden for not living up to a standard he never said he was aiming for.
Tell me what he said he would do, and how he is doing it, and how it does not line up with what I said he said he would and is doing. I have quoted people who feel lied to by Biden's rhetoric during the election and his statements and actions (or inactions) since taking office, so obviously some people don't feel he's doing what he said he would do.
And do not say that I am criticizing him for something I am not criticizing him for, because nowhere have I ever said he ran on open borders or whatever you're trying to imply/suggest.
That’s exactly my point, you’re misunderstanding me. Biden never ran on a policy of open borders and you never said he did. But Biden following current laws, as humanely as he can, looks like the situation we have now. People who come to the border will continue to either be sent back, or taken in as refugees and settled, depending on their situation.
Cool so we're on the same page, in that I am criticizing the current laws. Because the current laws are the same laws that Trump used, and are the same laws that Obama used. I am being critical not just of Biden, but also of Trump, and of Obama, and of W as well - but not just the presidents dating back to the creation of ICE. I am also being critical of the United States government writ large that, with overwhelming bipartisan legislative approval that created these organizations and set into motion the events that are currently unfolding here. For all the criticism that the Democrats had for the operations of ICE and DHS under Trump, they didn't have much to say about Obama's record-high deportations or proposed any sort of reform or, yes, abolishment of those organizations.
I'm angry as hell because this is systemic rot that cannot just be neatly be dumped in the laps of the Republican party while excusing the Democratic party from any guilt and responsibility, yet that is what is occurring again and again in this thread.
These changes to ICE and CBP policy are assuredly not fixes to all of the problems of the organizations, but perhaps they qualify as "any sort of reform"?
Aye. Biden has been doing things to try and fix issues with the immigration system within the scope of his actual immigration policies. If you are expecting Biden to go well beyond both what he promised and what the public supports on these issues, you are going to be disappointed.
And the comments about Obama's "record high deportations" are somewhat misleading. There's a bunch of different numbers you can go over on this front. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration
And again, Obama is working within the framework of his own immigration policies that I'm sure are not what some people want either.
And again, if Biden gave two shits, he could be using his soapbox (one of the biggest in the world) to work on drumming up that public support. Anyone who says that politicians can only do what the public wants COMPLETELY missed the run up to Iraq 2.0
This is an unreasonable standard for evidence that a president "gives two shits" on an issue. If only because a huge public opinion push can only really exist for one issue at a time. That issue is currently public health.
Listen we ain’t a court here, what “reasonable standard” are you looking for here?
The administration blocked press and lawyer access to these facilities. They’re still being packed to the gills despite COVID. The president is President of the United States with vast levels of power granted to that office that has only grown and grown over the course of the twenty first century thus far.
The criticisms are valid and necessary.
Also no, that idea that you can do only one thing at a time is a terrible crutch to fall back on; the government is more than capable of chewing gum and walking at the same time, as it were
Biden issuing "new guidelines" to ICE is laughable. Obama issued guidelines. Hell, the courts issued mandates. ICE has openly defied it all and faced no repercussions for doing so. You cannot expect an organization that is rotten to its core to be fixed by any half-measures or even anything less than full dismantling.
Executive orders overriding some of Trump's executive orders is not reform. Executive orders themselves cannot achieve any appreciable sort of actual reform because they are so easily altered or ceased.
Your final link about expanding housing is telling agencies to find more space for kids, which includes maybe opening more overflow facilities (which as I linked to before, include sites on military bases where toxic chemicals have been illegally dumped) and providing beds that were deliberately kept empty in order to comply with COVID-19 social distancing guidelines.
None of this is fixing the underlying issues, or even really addressing them. It's putting a bandaid on the gaping chest wound and asking for credit for trying to save the patient's life.
So that's the essential issue. Executive actions can only do so much, and legislation takes time and a functional senate. And with some emergent problems (or emergent escalations of existing problems) the infrastructure to fix the issue simply isn't there.
It's frustrating. It's totally right to be mad about.
But you're asking for what they're doing, and what they're doing is either stuff that can be done quickly, or not implemented yet.
Deportations are sharply down, and would be zero but for the lawsuit. The current policies are more restrictive on ICE than they ever were under Obama.
There are distinct, measurable differences between active malice and a good faith effort to fix problems. We should be able to agree on that, just as we agree that much more needs to be done before things are acceptable.
I'm sorry, what? This is the first I've heard about the Biden administration wanting to end deportations, much less being forced to continue performing deportations they have not wanted to have been doing because of some lawsuit compelling them to do so. What is this lawsuit that is the only thing preventing the Biden administration from implementing this apparent goal of theirs to not have any deportations?
Even if you aren't considering most of "the overwhelming majority of people coming to the border and crossing are being sent back" (to borrow Biden's exact words) as deportations because they aren't going through the exact legal process defined as deportation, there are absolutely lots of deportations occurring and not just of the people who have just crossed over the Mexico-US border in the last year or two. To suggest otherwise requires evidence to be presented.
Telling me that ICE they have new rules to follow, in response to me pointing out that ICE has been ignoring rules they don't care to follow for years now, is not convincing or reassuring.
There is not an important thing going on in the country that is not being under-supported. That's inherent to this broken world of ours. Biden is not going to share far-left goals, but he is pushing for more-left-than-conservatives, and he's made it a relatively high priority given he actually addressed it at all in the little time he's spent on camera since gaining the presidency.
He is definitely not going to share further-left goals, but he has made it one of his higher priorities. None of us are living to see open borders no matter who is in power. We probably won't live to see porous borders, either. We will at least see improvements from the current situation for at least the next year or so. But you're not going to see America suddenly become super welcoming. Ellis Island was a scam to get an instant workforce with nowhere else to go. Major, full-bodied, non-exploitative immigration reform is going to take massive cultural change, not just a random old rich white guy secretly having a heart of gold.
Biden is doing what he said he would do, and it’s in line with what the majority of the public wants.
Criticizing him for not also massively overhauling by now or for changing policy to be essentially open-borders is criticizing Biden for not living up to a standard he never said he was aiming for.
Tell me what he said he would do, and how he is doing it, and how it does not line up with what I said he said he would and is doing. I have quoted people who feel lied to by Biden's rhetoric during the election and his statements and actions (or inactions) since taking office, so obviously some people don't feel he's doing what he said he would do.
And do not say that I am criticizing him for something I am not criticizing him for, because nowhere have I ever said he ran on open borders or whatever you're trying to imply/suggest.
That’s exactly my point, you’re misunderstanding me. Biden never ran on a policy of open borders and you never said he did. But Biden following current laws, as humanely as he can, looks like the situation we have now. People who come to the border will continue to either be sent back, or taken in as refugees and settled, depending on their situation.
Cool so we're on the same page, in that I am criticizing the current laws. Because the current laws are the same laws that Trump used, and are the same laws that Obama used. I am being critical not just of Biden, but also of Trump, and of Obama, and of W as well - but not just the presidents dating back to the creation of ICE. I am also being critical of the United States government writ large that, with overwhelming bipartisan legislative approval that created these organizations and set into motion the events that are currently unfolding here. For all the criticism that the Democrats had for the operations of ICE and DHS under Trump, they didn't have much to say about Obama's record-high deportations or proposed any sort of reform or, yes, abolishment of those organizations.
I'm angry as hell because this is systemic rot that cannot just be neatly be dumped in the laps of the Republican party while excusing the Democratic party from any guilt and responsibility, yet that is what is occurring again and again in this thread.
These changes to ICE and CBP policy are assuredly not fixes to all of the problems of the organizations, but perhaps they qualify as "any sort of reform"?
Aye. Biden has been doing things to try and fix issues with the immigration system within the scope of his actual immigration policies. If you are expecting Biden to go well beyond both what he promised and what the public supports on these issues, you are going to be disappointed.
And the comments about Obama's "record high deportations" are somewhat misleading. There's a bunch of different numbers you can go over on this front. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration
And again, Obama is working within the framework of his own immigration policies that I'm sure are not what some people want either.
And again, if Biden gave two shits, he could be using his soapbox (one of the biggest in the world) to work on drumming up that public support. Anyone who says that politicians can only do what the public wants COMPLETELY missed the run up to Iraq 2.0
This is an unreasonable standard for evidence that a president "gives two shits" on an issue. If only because a huge public opinion push can only really exist for one issue at a time. That issue is currently public health.
Marathon, I'm not even sure where you are going with this conversation anymore, it reads like you are arguing both sides. Biden spending millions is peanuts against the bigger problems. It's trying to put a bandaid on the latest laceration we've gotten from trying to climb over razor wire. Yes it's something, no it's not enough and it's just treating a symptom. He should be using this situation to rile up public support for an actual solution. As a reminder to folks, leaders, even politicians aren't just beholden to the "will" of the public. They have a duty to also try and lead and drive the will of the public.
I’m acknowledging that while things are trying to improve there is still a ways to go. There’s a middle ground between denying anything is wrong and being relentlessly negative. I don’t believe either extreme is accurate and am just voicing that opinion. People are free to disagree, but I’m not going to be berated into agreeing with people.
My dude it only seems “relentlessly negative” because the situation, when described as it stands, is absolutely galling. There is not a nice, friendly way to describe a system that locks away immigrants, packs them into overcrowded facilities, restricts their movements within said facilities, all to create a warning for anyone who would dare cross the border without submitted to our arcane nightmare of an immigration “process,” purposefully designed to be antagonistic and restrictive to allowing folks to move here
What indication is there exactly that Biden wants his immigration policy ot serve as a "warning to anyone who would dare cross the border"? Like, we've got lots of info on how Trump wanted to make the immigration system shittier because he (stupidly and falsely) believed that would deter immigration. I've seen nothing that indicates Biden sees this as a lever to deter immigration and his repeated comments on the way to stop or slow down these people coming is to improve the domestic situation back where they come suggest he takes the opposite view on what the causes are here.
1) the part where that has been an intrinsic feature of US immigration policy since around when our great grandparents were born, give or take
2) the part where he took his answer to ABC News’ George Stephanopolous saying that immigrants making the continental trek up and across the border should not do so:
Yes, I can say quite clearly: Don't come over," Biden said during the wide-ranging interview in Darby, Pennsylvania.
"Don't leave your town or city or community," he added.
Except not. What you think of as an "intrinsic feature of US immigration policy since around when our great grandparents were born" is both highly questionable given the changes over that period and does not itself indicate that Biden wants to use a harsh immigration system to deter migrants. And Biden saying "Don't come over" is not the same as, again, Biden using a harsh immigration system to deter people from coming over. It says he is trying to create the perception that they should not come (and there's a bunch of reasons for this that we've talked about before and can get into if you want but the actual context of the quote is him countering narratives being told to these people back in their homes that claim he's opening up the border more by saying "no, we aren't, we are turning people around and sending them back"). But that is not the same thing as trying to use cruelty as a deterrent. You have shown nothing to support this idea you are pushing that the immigration system is supposed to serve as a warning to people trying to cross the border. Meanwhile, as I already pointed out, you can look to Biden's statements on what he does want to do in order to slow the number of people seeking to come to the US and see a view on the issue that is the opposite of what you are claiming. Where he sees people's desire to come to the US as a function of the conditions in the places they come from and that the key to dealing with the issue is not to be more cruel but to make the situation back home for these people better.
Biden is doing what he said he would do, and it’s in line with what the majority of the public wants.
Criticizing him for not also massively overhauling by now or for changing policy to be essentially open-borders is criticizing Biden for not living up to a standard he never said he was aiming for.
Tell me what he said he would do, and how he is doing it, and how it does not line up with what I said he said he would and is doing. I have quoted people who feel lied to by Biden's rhetoric during the election and his statements and actions (or inactions) since taking office, so obviously some people don't feel he's doing what he said he would do.
And do not say that I am criticizing him for something I am not criticizing him for, because nowhere have I ever said he ran on open borders or whatever you're trying to imply/suggest.
That’s exactly my point, you’re misunderstanding me. Biden never ran on a policy of open borders and you never said he did. But Biden following current laws, as humanely as he can, looks like the situation we have now. People who come to the border will continue to either be sent back, or taken in as refugees and settled, depending on their situation.
Cool so we're on the same page, in that I am criticizing the current laws. Because the current laws are the same laws that Trump used, and are the same laws that Obama used. I am being critical not just of Biden, but also of Trump, and of Obama, and of W as well - but not just the presidents dating back to the creation of ICE. I am also being critical of the United States government writ large that, with overwhelming bipartisan legislative approval that created these organizations and set into motion the events that are currently unfolding here. For all the criticism that the Democrats had for the operations of ICE and DHS under Trump, they didn't have much to say about Obama's record-high deportations or proposed any sort of reform or, yes, abolishment of those organizations.
I'm angry as hell because this is systemic rot that cannot just be neatly be dumped in the laps of the Republican party while excusing the Democratic party from any guilt and responsibility, yet that is what is occurring again and again in this thread.
These changes to ICE and CBP policy are assuredly not fixes to all of the problems of the organizations, but perhaps they qualify as "any sort of reform"?
Aye. Biden has been doing things to try and fix issues with the immigration system within the scope of his actual immigration policies. If you are expecting Biden to go well beyond both what he promised and what the public supports on these issues, you are going to be disappointed.
And the comments about Obama's "record high deportations" are somewhat misleading. There's a bunch of different numbers you can go over on this front. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration
And again, Obama is working within the framework of his own immigration policies that I'm sure are not what some people want either.
And again, if Biden gave two shits, he could be using his soapbox (one of the biggest in the world) to work on drumming up that public support. Anyone who says that politicians can only do what the public wants COMPLETELY missed the run up to Iraq 2.0
This is an unreasonable standard for evidence that a president "gives two shits" on an issue. If only because a huge public opinion push can only really exist for one issue at a time. That issue is currently public health.
Listen we ain’t a court here, what “reasonable standard” are you looking for here?
The administration blocked press and lawyer access to these facilities. They’re still being packed to the gills despite COVID. The president is President of the United States with vast levels of power granted to that office that has only grown and grown over the course of the twenty first century thus far.
The criticisms are valid and necessary.
Also no, that idea that you can do only one thing at a time is a terrible crutch to fall back on; the government is more than capable of chewing gum and walking at the same time, as it were
I really want to know what your actual experience dealing with the government is because it clearly very different from mine or that of anyone else I know who has ever been involved in government contracting.
Example
One of our product lines is high precision ground measuring bars like 1-2 ten-thousandths of an inch in both size and parallelism. We have a bid in process for 60ish sets of these for the USAF. They are used during maintenance on the radar of certain planes, and they want a standardized set across all the bases. All in all this would be less than a $250k order.
We have been working with the USAF guy on this order for over 15 months. This isn't the normal "ohh we are changing the spec" type thing, or "we are waiting on other bids" we are probably sole sourcing this, the price is fine and in budget. He has had our final quote for coming up on a year. He just needs to get "the approvals" done.
This is not atypical of other government contracts we have had and our stuff has mostly been for the DoD - ya know the people who get all the giant budget.
Biden is doing what he said he would do, and it’s in line with what the majority of the public wants.
Criticizing him for not also massively overhauling by now or for changing policy to be essentially open-borders is criticizing Biden for not living up to a standard he never said he was aiming for.
Tell me what he said he would do, and how he is doing it, and how it does not line up with what I said he said he would and is doing. I have quoted people who feel lied to by Biden's rhetoric during the election and his statements and actions (or inactions) since taking office, so obviously some people don't feel he's doing what he said he would do.
And do not say that I am criticizing him for something I am not criticizing him for, because nowhere have I ever said he ran on open borders or whatever you're trying to imply/suggest.
That’s exactly my point, you’re misunderstanding me. Biden never ran on a policy of open borders and you never said he did. But Biden following current laws, as humanely as he can, looks like the situation we have now. People who come to the border will continue to either be sent back, or taken in as refugees and settled, depending on their situation.
Cool so we're on the same page, in that I am criticizing the current laws. Because the current laws are the same laws that Trump used, and are the same laws that Obama used. I am being critical not just of Biden, but also of Trump, and of Obama, and of W as well - but not just the presidents dating back to the creation of ICE. I am also being critical of the United States government writ large that, with overwhelming bipartisan legislative approval that created these organizations and set into motion the events that are currently unfolding here. For all the criticism that the Democrats had for the operations of ICE and DHS under Trump, they didn't have much to say about Obama's record-high deportations or proposed any sort of reform or, yes, abolishment of those organizations.
I'm angry as hell because this is systemic rot that cannot just be neatly be dumped in the laps of the Republican party while excusing the Democratic party from any guilt and responsibility, yet that is what is occurring again and again in this thread.
These changes to ICE and CBP policy are assuredly not fixes to all of the problems of the organizations, but perhaps they qualify as "any sort of reform"?
Aye. Biden has been doing things to try and fix issues with the immigration system within the scope of his actual immigration policies. If you are expecting Biden to go well beyond both what he promised and what the public supports on these issues, you are going to be disappointed.
And the comments about Obama's "record high deportations" are somewhat misleading. There's a bunch of different numbers you can go over on this front. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration
And again, Obama is working within the framework of his own immigration policies that I'm sure are not what some people want either.
And again, if Biden gave two shits, he could be using his soapbox (one of the biggest in the world) to work on drumming up that public support. Anyone who says that politicians can only do what the public wants COMPLETELY missed the run up to Iraq 2.0
This is an unreasonable standard for evidence that a president "gives two shits" on an issue. If only because a huge public opinion push can only really exist for one issue at a time. That issue is currently public health.
Listen we ain’t a court here, what “reasonable standard” are you looking for here?
The administration blocked press and lawyer access to these facilities. They’re still being packed to the gills despite COVID. The president is President of the United States with vast levels of power granted to that office that has only grown and grown over the course of the twenty first century thus far.
The criticisms are valid and necessary.
Also no, that idea that you can do only one thing at a time is a terrible crutch to fall back on; the government is more than capable of chewing gum and walking at the same time, as it were
I really want to know what your actual experience dealing with the government is because it clearly very different from mine or that of anyone else I know who has ever been involved in government contracting.
Example
One of our product lines is high precision ground measuring bars like 1-2 ten-thousandths of an inch in both size and parallelism. We have a bid in process for 60ish sets of these for the USAF. They are used during maintenance on the radar of certain planes, and they want a standardized set across all the bases. All in all this would be less than a $250k order.
We have been working with the USAF guy on this order for over 15 months. This isn't the normal "ohh we are changing the spec" type thing, or "we are waiting on other bids" we are probably sole sourcing this, the price is fine and in budget. He has had our final quote for coming up on a year. He just needs to get "the approvals" done.
This is not atypical of other government contracts we have had and our stuff has mostly been for the DoD - ya know the people who get all the giant budget.
Yes, the government is dysfunctional in its current execution. This does not preclude that it is vastly capable of accomplishing multiple tasks at the same time that it wishes to, should it’s administrating agents choose to do so.
Particularly in this case, where what was argued was essentially “the government can’t manage two PR campaigns at one time” as to why the Biden admin can’t rally support behind COVID management AND immigration reform
+1
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Marathon, I'm not even sure where you are going with this conversation anymore, it reads like you are arguing both sides. Biden spending millions is peanuts against the bigger problems. It's trying to put a bandaid on the latest laceration we've gotten from trying to climb over razor wire. Yes it's something, no it's not enough and it's just treating a symptom. He should be using this situation to rile up public support for an actual solution. As a reminder to folks, leaders, even politicians aren't just beholden to the "will" of the public. They have a duty to also try and lead and drive the will of the public.
I’m acknowledging that while things are trying to improve there is still a ways to go. There’s a middle ground between denying anything is wrong and being relentlessly negative. I don’t believe either extreme is accurate and am just voicing that opinion. People are free to disagree, but I’m not going to be berated into agreeing with people.
My dude it only seems “relentlessly negative” because the situation, when described as it stands, is absolutely galling. There is not a nice, friendly way to describe a system that locks away immigrants, packs them into overcrowded facilities, restricts their movements within said facilities, all to create a warning for anyone who would dare cross the border without submitted to our arcane nightmare of an immigration “process,” purposefully designed to be antagonistic and restrictive to allowing folks to move here
What indication is there exactly that Biden wants his immigration policy ot serve as a "warning to anyone who would dare cross the border"? Like, we've got lots of info on how Trump wanted to make the immigration system shittier because he (stupidly and falsely) believed that would deter immigration. I've seen nothing that indicates Biden sees this as a lever to deter immigration and his repeated comments on the way to stop or slow down these people coming is to improve the domestic situation back where they come suggest he takes the opposite view on what the causes are here.
1) the part where that has been an intrinsic feature of US immigration policy since around when our great grandparents were born, give or take
2) the part where he took his answer to ABC News’ George Stephanopolous saying that immigrants making the continental trek up and across the border should not do so:
Yes, I can say quite clearly: Don't come over," Biden said during the wide-ranging interview in Darby, Pennsylvania.
"Don't leave your town or city or community," he added.
Except not. What you think of as an "intrinsic feature of US immigration policy since around when our great grandparents were born" is both highly questionable given the changes over that period and does not itself indicate that Biden wants to use a harsh immigration system to deter migrants. And Biden saying "Don't come over" is not the same as, again, Biden using a harsh immigration system to deter people from coming over. It says he is trying to create the perception that they should not come (and there's a bunch of reasons for this that we've talked about before and can get into if you want but the actual context of the quote is him countering narratives being told to these people back in their homes that claim he's opening up the border more by saying "no, we aren't, we are turning people around and sending them back"). But that is not the same thing as trying to use cruelty as a deterrent. You have shown nothing to support this idea you are pushing that the immigration system is supposed to serve as a warning to people trying to cross the border. Meanwhile, as I already pointed out, you can look to Biden's statements on what he does want to do in order to slow the number of people seeking to come to the US and see a view on the issue that is the opposite of what you are claiming. Where he sees people's desire to come to the US as a function of the conditions in the places they come from and that the key to dealing with the issue is not to be more cruel but to make the situation back home for these people better.
Honestly, the "don't come over" thing seems more like a "we are overwhelmed, and are trying to get to a place where we can get our arms around it" to me.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Biden is doing what he said he would do, and it’s in line with what the majority of the public wants.
Criticizing him for not also massively overhauling by now or for changing policy to be essentially open-borders is criticizing Biden for not living up to a standard he never said he was aiming for.
Tell me what he said he would do, and how he is doing it, and how it does not line up with what I said he said he would and is doing. I have quoted people who feel lied to by Biden's rhetoric during the election and his statements and actions (or inactions) since taking office, so obviously some people don't feel he's doing what he said he would do.
And do not say that I am criticizing him for something I am not criticizing him for, because nowhere have I ever said he ran on open borders or whatever you're trying to imply/suggest.
That’s exactly my point, you’re misunderstanding me. Biden never ran on a policy of open borders and you never said he did. But Biden following current laws, as humanely as he can, looks like the situation we have now. People who come to the border will continue to either be sent back, or taken in as refugees and settled, depending on their situation.
Cool so we're on the same page, in that I am criticizing the current laws. Because the current laws are the same laws that Trump used, and are the same laws that Obama used. I am being critical not just of Biden, but also of Trump, and of Obama, and of W as well - but not just the presidents dating back to the creation of ICE. I am also being critical of the United States government writ large that, with overwhelming bipartisan legislative approval that created these organizations and set into motion the events that are currently unfolding here. For all the criticism that the Democrats had for the operations of ICE and DHS under Trump, they didn't have much to say about Obama's record-high deportations or proposed any sort of reform or, yes, abolishment of those organizations.
I'm angry as hell because this is systemic rot that cannot just be neatly be dumped in the laps of the Republican party while excusing the Democratic party from any guilt and responsibility, yet that is what is occurring again and again in this thread.
These changes to ICE and CBP policy are assuredly not fixes to all of the problems of the organizations, but perhaps they qualify as "any sort of reform"?
Aye. Biden has been doing things to try and fix issues with the immigration system within the scope of his actual immigration policies. If you are expecting Biden to go well beyond both what he promised and what the public supports on these issues, you are going to be disappointed.
And the comments about Obama's "record high deportations" are somewhat misleading. There's a bunch of different numbers you can go over on this front. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration
And again, Obama is working within the framework of his own immigration policies that I'm sure are not what some people want either.
And again, if Biden gave two shits, he could be using his soapbox (one of the biggest in the world) to work on drumming up that public support. Anyone who says that politicians can only do what the public wants COMPLETELY missed the run up to Iraq 2.0
This is an unreasonable standard for evidence that a president "gives two shits" on an issue. If only because a huge public opinion push can only really exist for one issue at a time. That issue is currently public health.
Listen we ain’t a court here, what “reasonable standard” are you looking for here?
The administration blocked press and lawyer access to these facilities. They’re still being packed to the gills despite COVID. The president is President of the United States with vast levels of power granted to that office that has only grown and grown over the course of the twenty first century thus far.
The criticisms are valid and necessary.
Also no, that idea that you can do only one thing at a time is a terrible crutch to fall back on; the government is more than capable of chewing gum and walking at the same time, as it were
I really want to know what your actual experience dealing with the government is because it clearly very different from mine or that of anyone else I know who has ever been involved in government contracting.
Example
One of our product lines is high precision ground measuring bars like 1-2 ten-thousandths of an inch in both size and parallelism. We have a bid in process for 60ish sets of these for the USAF. They are used during maintenance on the radar of certain planes, and they want a standardized set across all the bases. All in all this would be less than a $250k order.
We have been working with the USAF guy on this order for over 15 months. This isn't the normal "ohh we are changing the spec" type thing, or "we are waiting on other bids" we are probably sole sourcing this, the price is fine and in budget. He has had our final quote for coming up on a year. He just needs to get "the approvals" done.
This is not atypical of other government contracts we have had and our stuff has mostly been for the DoD - ya know the people who get all the giant budget.
Yes, the government is dysfunctional in its current execution. This does not preclude that it is vastly capable of accomplishing multiple tasks at the same time that it wishes to, should it’s administrating agents choose to do so.
Particularly in this case, where what was argued was essentially “the government can’t manage two PR campaigns at one time” as to why the Biden admin can’t rally support behind COVID management AND immigration reform
I think the Biden team could, but I think the public only has enough attention for one at a time.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
This is still bad AND factually incorrect regarding the level of resources available to support people in America! We have more than enough resources to support those who want to start a life here!
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
This is still bad AND factually incorrect regarding the level of resources available to support people in America! We have more than enough resources to support those who want to start a life here!
Lanz, "waste resources" does not imply "and then we'll run out". It means you will use resources you do not wish to use.
Biden needs to say "don't come over" because there's lots of disinformation floating round in Central/South America telling people that the Democrats have thrown open the borders and are now welcoming refugees. He needs to be plain so that they understand this is not the case, especially given language barriers.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
I guess I'm not sure what the alternative is when your policy is for people to not enter the country. Fly them to Canada?
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
I guess I'm not sure what the alternative is when your policy is for people to not enter the country. Fly them to Canada?
Nothing is obligating Biden to follow Stephen Miller's policy, other than an alignment of goals and politics. His policy is a choice, and so are subsequent statements that naturally follow it.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
I guess I'm not sure what the alternative is when your policy is for people to not enter the country. Fly them to Canada?
Nothing is obligating Biden to follow Stephen Miller's policy, other than an alignment of goals and politics. His policy is a choice, and so are subsequent statements that naturally follow it.
It is true that Biden is not going to open the borders nor welcome any and all possible refugees.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
I guess I'm not sure what the alternative is when your policy is for people to not enter the country. Fly them to Canada?
Nothing is obligating Biden to follow Stephen Miller's policy, other than an alignment of goals and politics. His policy is a choice, and so are subsequent statements that naturally follow it.
It is true that Biden is not going to open the borders nor welcome any and all possible refugees.
The full gamut of available choices is not open borders or a continuation of Trump policy. This is explicitly a Republican argument you're making.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
Biden's strategy is using Title 42 to turn basically everyone who isn't an unaccompanied minor around and send them back. This is very similar to what Trump was doing after he invoked Title 42. I'm only unsure if Trump was still letting the unaccompanied minors in. He's also ended the Remain in Mexico policy.
But the contention though was that he was using deliberately cruel treatment to convince people not to come. This was a Trump strategy before the pandemic and was the core of their child separation policy. This is something the Biden admin is not trying to do from anything I've seen.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
I guess I'm not sure what the alternative is when your policy is for people to not enter the country. Fly them to Canada?
Nothing is obligating Biden to follow Stephen Miller's policy, other than an alignment of goals and politics. His policy is a choice, and so are subsequent statements that naturally follow it.
It is true that Biden is not going to open the borders nor welcome any and all possible refugees.
The full gamut of available choices is not open borders or a continuation of Trump policy. This is explicitly a Republican argument you're making.
What is the argument you think I'm making, in your own words, since I'm not making an argument?
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
Biden's strategy is using Title 42 to turn basically everyone who isn't an unaccompanied minor around and send them back. This is very similar to what Trump was doing after he invoked Title 42. I'm only unsure if Trump was still letting the unaccompanied minors in. He's also ended the Remain in Mexico policy.
But the contention though was that he was using deliberately cruel treatment to convince people not to come. This was a Trump strategy before the pandemic and was the core of their child separation policy. This is something the Biden admin is not trying to do from anything I've seen.
They're just being accidently cruel to immigrants instead I guess?
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
Biden's strategy is using Title 42 to turn basically everyone who isn't an unaccompanied minor around and send them back. This is very similar to what Trump was doing after he invoked Title 42. I'm only unsure if Trump was still letting the unaccompanied minors in. He's also ended the Remain in Mexico policy.
But the contention though was that he was using deliberately cruel treatment to convince people not to come. This was a Trump strategy before the pandemic and was the core of their child separation policy. This is something the Biden admin is not trying to do from anything I've seen.
They're just being accidently cruel to immigrants instead I guess?
Do you feel that Team Biden told anyone at all to go forth and be cruel to scare people away? Because Trump did.
Biden needs to say "don't come over" because there's lots of disinformation floating round in Central/South America telling people that the Democrats have thrown open the borders and are now welcoming refugees. He needs to be plain so that they understand this is not the case, especially given language barriers.
Aye. The core of this messaging, and if you actually watch the interview this is explicitly the context of the "Don't come here quote", is to try and counter the idea that Biden has opened up the border and if you show up it'll be easier to get in. This is both a general perception issue that exists with a lot of incoming, especially democratic from my understanding, presidents and a persistent rumour among the social groups of people thinking of making the trek to the US southern border and a story told by smugglers who want people to pay them to take people to or across the border for obvious financial reasons.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
Biden's strategy is using Title 42 to turn basically everyone who isn't an unaccompanied minor around and send them back. This is very similar to what Trump was doing after he invoked Title 42. I'm only unsure if Trump was still letting the unaccompanied minors in. He's also ended the Remain in Mexico policy.
But the contention though was that he was using deliberately cruel treatment to convince people not to come. This was a Trump strategy before the pandemic and was the core of their child separation policy. This is something the Biden admin is not trying to do from anything I've seen.
They're just being accidently cruel to immigrants instead I guess?
Do you feel that Team Biden told anyone at all to go forth and be cruel to scare people away? Because Trump did.
I don't care? They know what the system they're choosing to subject these people to operates like and is capable of. They've chosen to do so anyway.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
Biden's strategy is using Title 42 to turn basically everyone who isn't an unaccompanied minor around and send them back. This is very similar to what Trump was doing after he invoked Title 42. I'm only unsure if Trump was still letting the unaccompanied minors in. He's also ended the Remain in Mexico policy.
But the contention though was that he was using deliberately cruel treatment to convince people not to come. This was a Trump strategy before the pandemic and was the core of their child separation policy. This is something the Biden admin is not trying to do from anything I've seen.
They're just being accidently cruel to immigrants instead I guess?
Do you feel that Team Biden told anyone at all to go forth and be cruel to scare people away? Because Trump did.
I don't care? They know what the system they're choosing to subject these people to operates like and is capable of. They've chosen to do so anyway.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
Biden's strategy is using Title 42 to turn basically everyone who isn't an unaccompanied minor around and send them back. This is very similar to what Trump was doing after he invoked Title 42. I'm only unsure if Trump was still letting the unaccompanied minors in. He's also ended the Remain in Mexico policy.
But the contention though was that he was using deliberately cruel treatment to convince people not to come. This was a Trump strategy before the pandemic and was the core of their child separation policy. This is something the Biden admin is not trying to do from anything I've seen.
They're just being accidently cruel to immigrants instead I guess?
Do you feel that Team Biden told anyone at all to go forth and be cruel to scare people away? Because Trump did.
I don't care? They know what the system they're choosing to subject these people to operates like and is capable of. They've chosen to do so anyway.
I don’t know what you think they can do differently. They aren’t going to open the borders and they are working to speed up processing and to have more room.
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
Biden's strategy is using Title 42 to turn basically everyone who isn't an unaccompanied minor around and send them back. This is very similar to what Trump was doing after he invoked Title 42. I'm only unsure if Trump was still letting the unaccompanied minors in. He's also ended the Remain in Mexico policy.
But the contention though was that he was using deliberately cruel treatment to convince people not to come. This was a Trump strategy before the pandemic and was the core of their child separation policy. This is something the Biden admin is not trying to do from anything I've seen.
They're just being accidently cruel to immigrants instead I guess?
Do you feel that Team Biden told anyone at all to go forth and be cruel to scare people away? Because Trump did.
I don't care? They know what the system they're choosing to subject these people to operates like and is capable of. They've chosen to do so anyway.
Okay.
This argument that you're making that they're not trying to be cruel, if even taken at face value, amounts to little more than "continuing the same policies that Trump had is ok because we're good people"
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
Biden's strategy is using Title 42 to turn basically everyone who isn't an unaccompanied minor around and send them back. This is very similar to what Trump was doing after he invoked Title 42. I'm only unsure if Trump was still letting the unaccompanied minors in. He's also ended the Remain in Mexico policy.
But the contention though was that he was using deliberately cruel treatment to convince people not to come. This was a Trump strategy before the pandemic and was the core of their child separation policy. This is something the Biden admin is not trying to do from anything I've seen.
They're just being accidently cruel to immigrants instead I guess?
They are trying their best with what resources they have to get everyone they have in the system processed. They don't have the facilities or manpower to do that to the degree anyone, including people in this thread or in the White House from anything they've said, want. Though the Biden admin is currently trying to expand that logistical capacity.
This is, again, very obviously different from a process of deliberately inflicting cruel and inhumane treatment on people to convince others that they should not come.
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My dude it only seems “relentlessly negative” because the situation, when described as it stands, is absolutely galling. There is not a nice, friendly way to describe a system that locks away immigrants, packs them into overcrowded facilities, restricts their movements within said facilities, all to create a warning for anyone who would dare cross the border without submitted to our arcane nightmare of an immigration “process,” purposefully designed to be antagonistic and restrictive to allowing folks to move here
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-biden-rules-for-ice-point-to-fewer-arrests-and-deportations-and-a-more-restrained-agency/ar-BB1dtd9Z
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/02/02/executive-order-creating-a-comprehensive-regional-framework-to-address-the-causes-of-migration-to-manage-migration-throughout-north-and-central-america-and-to-provide-safe-and-orderly-processing/
These changes to ICE and CBP policy are assuredly not fixes to all of the problems of the organizations, but perhaps they qualify as "any sort of reform"?
And for attempts to fix the horrid conditions of minors in holding at CBP: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-administration-scrambles-to-expand-housing-space-for-migrant-children-amid-sharp-increase-in-border-apprehensions/
Executive orders overriding some of Trump's executive orders is not reform. Executive orders themselves cannot achieve any appreciable sort of actual reform because they are so easily altered or ceased.
Your final link about expanding housing is telling agencies to find more space for kids, which includes maybe opening more overflow facilities (which as I linked to before, include sites on military bases where toxic chemicals have been illegally dumped) and providing beds that were deliberately kept empty in order to comply with COVID-19 social distancing guidelines.
None of this is fixing the underlying issues, or even really addressing them. It's putting a bandaid on the gaping chest wound and asking for credit for trying to save the patient's life.
If more can be done than they aren't doing enough. You don't get a pass by doing the bare minimum or token efforts that don't remotely address the issue. There is clearly a major humanitarian crisis occurring in these camps, a fact that I'm pretty sure the Buden campaign agreed with. Did they come in and treat this situation as a top priority as we should expect them to? I will concede that it is possible that they have and additional capacity is being built as fast as physically possible, and they have done everything they can to speed up the process of getting minors to family in the US, etc. It's even possible that Biden and his cabinet have issued all the necessary orders and lower level officials are dragging their feet and can't be replaced easily. But I'm going to need to see some proof because it is far more probable in my mind that this is just not a top priority for this admin and not looking weak on immigration is more important to them than human well-being.
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Aye. Biden has been doing things to try and fix issues with the immigration system within the scope of his actual immigration policies. If you are expecting Biden to go well beyond both what he promised and what the public supports on these issues, you are going to be disappointed.
And the comments about Obama's "record high deportations" are somewhat misleading. There's a bunch of different numbers you can go over on this front.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration
And again, Obama is working within the framework of his own immigration policies that I'm sure are not what some people want either.
So that's the essential issue. Executive actions can only do so much, and legislation takes time and a functional senate. And with some emergent problems (or emergent escalations of existing problems) the infrastructure to fix the issue simply isn't there.
It's frustrating. It's totally right to be mad about.
But you're asking for what they're doing, and what they're doing is either stuff that can be done quickly, or not implemented yet.
Deportations are sharply down, and would be zero but for the lawsuit. The current policies are more restrictive on ICE than they ever were under Obama.
There are distinct, measurable differences between active malice and a good faith effort to fix problems. We should be able to agree on that, just as we agree that much more needs to be done before things are acceptable.
What indication is there exactly that Biden wants his immigration policy ot serve as a "warning to anyone who would dare cross the border"? Like, we've got lots of info on how Trump wanted to make the immigration system shittier because he (stupidly and falsely) believed that would deter immigration. I've seen nothing that indicates Biden sees this as a lever to deter immigration and his repeated comments on the way to stop or slow down these people coming is to improve the domestic situation back where they come suggest he takes the opposite view on what the causes are here.
And again, if Biden gave two shits, he could be using his soapbox (one of the biggest in the world) to work on drumming up that public support. Anyone who says that politicians can only do what the public wants COMPLETELY missed the run up to Iraq 2.0
This is an unreasonable standard for evidence that a president "gives two shits" on an issue. If only because a huge public opinion push can only really exist for one issue at a time. That issue is currently public health.
1) the part where that has been an intrinsic feature of US immigration policy since around when our great grandparents were born, give or take
2) the part where he took his answer to ABC News’ George Stephanopolous saying that immigrants making the continental trek up and across the border should not do so:
And then made it a PR thing across social media
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-tells-migrants-dont-abc-news-exclusive-interview/story?id=76490159
Listen we ain’t a court here, what “reasonable standard” are you looking for here?
The administration blocked press and lawyer access to these facilities. They’re still being packed to the gills despite COVID. The president is President of the United States with vast levels of power granted to that office that has only grown and grown over the course of the twenty first century thus far.
The criticisms are valid and necessary.
Also no, that idea that you can do only one thing at a time is a terrible crutch to fall back on; the government is more than capable of chewing gum and walking at the same time, as it were
I'm sorry, what? This is the first I've heard about the Biden administration wanting to end deportations, much less being forced to continue performing deportations they have not wanted to have been doing because of some lawsuit compelling them to do so. What is this lawsuit that is the only thing preventing the Biden administration from implementing this apparent goal of theirs to not have any deportations?
Even if you aren't considering most of "the overwhelming majority of people coming to the border and crossing are being sent back" (to borrow Biden's exact words) as deportations because they aren't going through the exact legal process defined as deportation, there are absolutely lots of deportations occurring and not just of the people who have just crossed over the Mexico-US border in the last year or two. To suggest otherwise requires evidence to be presented.
Telling me that ICE they have new rules to follow, in response to me pointing out that ICE has been ignoring rules they don't care to follow for years now, is not convincing or reassuring.
He is definitely not going to share further-left goals, but he has made it one of his higher priorities. None of us are living to see open borders no matter who is in power. We probably won't live to see porous borders, either. We will at least see improvements from the current situation for at least the next year or so. But you're not going to see America suddenly become super welcoming. Ellis Island was a scam to get an instant workforce with nowhere else to go. Major, full-bodied, non-exploitative immigration reform is going to take massive cultural change, not just a random old rich white guy secretly having a heart of gold.
Ahhh... so BLM should have gone home last summer?
Except not. What you think of as an "intrinsic feature of US immigration policy since around when our great grandparents were born" is both highly questionable given the changes over that period and does not itself indicate that Biden wants to use a harsh immigration system to deter migrants. And Biden saying "Don't come over" is not the same as, again, Biden using a harsh immigration system to deter people from coming over. It says he is trying to create the perception that they should not come (and there's a bunch of reasons for this that we've talked about before and can get into if you want but the actual context of the quote is him countering narratives being told to these people back in their homes that claim he's opening up the border more by saying "no, we aren't, we are turning people around and sending them back"). But that is not the same thing as trying to use cruelty as a deterrent. You have shown nothing to support this idea you are pushing that the immigration system is supposed to serve as a warning to people trying to cross the border. Meanwhile, as I already pointed out, you can look to Biden's statements on what he does want to do in order to slow the number of people seeking to come to the US and see a view on the issue that is the opposite of what you are claiming. Where he sees people's desire to come to the US as a function of the conditions in the places they come from and that the key to dealing with the issue is not to be more cruel but to make the situation back home for these people better.
Is your argument that American carceral systems do not hold deterrence as an inherent and promoted feature?
And if you do not, then how do you then expect our immigrant detention system to not follow that same paradigm given its carceral nature
I really want to know what your actual experience dealing with the government is because it clearly very different from mine or that of anyone else I know who has ever been involved in government contracting.
Example
One of our product lines is high precision ground measuring bars like 1-2 ten-thousandths of an inch in both size and parallelism. We have a bid in process for 60ish sets of these for the USAF. They are used during maintenance on the radar of certain planes, and they want a standardized set across all the bases. All in all this would be less than a $250k order.
We have been working with the USAF guy on this order for over 15 months. This isn't the normal "ohh we are changing the spec" type thing, or "we are waiting on other bids" we are probably sole sourcing this, the price is fine and in budget. He has had our final quote for coming up on a year. He just needs to get "the approvals" done.
This is not atypical of other government contracts we have had and our stuff has mostly been for the DoD - ya know the people who get all the giant budget.
Yes, the government is dysfunctional in its current execution. This does not preclude that it is vastly capable of accomplishing multiple tasks at the same time that it wishes to, should it’s administrating agents choose to do so.
Particularly in this case, where what was argued was essentially “the government can’t manage two PR campaigns at one time” as to why the Biden admin can’t rally support behind COVID management AND immigration reform
Honestly, the "don't come over" thing seems more like a "we are overwhelmed, and are trying to get to a place where we can get our arms around it" to me.
I think the Biden team could, but I think the public only has enough attention for one at a time.
This is still bad AND factually incorrect regarding the level of resources available to support people in America! We have more than enough resources to support those who want to start a life here!
Don't come over here we're gonna just tell you to fuck off was the Trump policy during the last year of his administration. This is now adopted by Biden, using the exact title designed by Trump and Miller, so there's a virtually identical policy at the core of the border strategy.
Lanz, "waste resources" does not imply "and then we'll run out". It means you will use resources you do not wish to use.
I guess I'm not sure what the alternative is when your policy is for people to not enter the country. Fly them to Canada?
Nothing is obligating Biden to follow Stephen Miller's policy, other than an alignment of goals and politics. His policy is a choice, and so are subsequent statements that naturally follow it.
It is true that Biden is not going to open the borders nor welcome any and all possible refugees.
The full gamut of available choices is not open borders or a continuation of Trump policy. This is explicitly a Republican argument you're making.
Biden's strategy is using Title 42 to turn basically everyone who isn't an unaccompanied minor around and send them back. This is very similar to what Trump was doing after he invoked Title 42. I'm only unsure if Trump was still letting the unaccompanied minors in. He's also ended the Remain in Mexico policy.
But the contention though was that he was using deliberately cruel treatment to convince people not to come. This was a Trump strategy before the pandemic and was the core of their child separation policy. This is something the Biden admin is not trying to do from anything I've seen.
What is the argument you think I'm making, in your own words, since I'm not making an argument?
They're just being accidently cruel to immigrants instead I guess?
Do you feel that Team Biden told anyone at all to go forth and be cruel to scare people away? Because Trump did.
Aye. The core of this messaging, and if you actually watch the interview this is explicitly the context of the "Don't come here quote", is to try and counter the idea that Biden has opened up the border and if you show up it'll be easier to get in. This is both a general perception issue that exists with a lot of incoming, especially democratic from my understanding, presidents and a persistent rumour among the social groups of people thinking of making the trek to the US southern border and a story told by smugglers who want people to pay them to take people to or across the border for obvious financial reasons.
I don't care? They know what the system they're choosing to subject these people to operates like and is capable of. They've chosen to do so anyway.
Okay.
I don’t know what you think they can do differently. They aren’t going to open the borders and they are working to speed up processing and to have more room.
This argument that you're making that they're not trying to be cruel, if even taken at face value, amounts to little more than "continuing the same policies that Trump had is ok because we're good people"
They are trying their best with what resources they have to get everyone they have in the system processed. They don't have the facilities or manpower to do that to the degree anyone, including people in this thread or in the White House from anything they've said, want. Though the Biden admin is currently trying to expand that logistical capacity.
This is, again, very obviously different from a process of deliberately inflicting cruel and inhumane treatment on people to convince others that they should not come.