as a general thing i think it's fucked up to pretend that the goal having an immigration system that doesn't involve concentration camps is some idealistic leftist dingbat pipe dream, and it's also fucked up to look at the same camps run by the same people that six months ago everyone agreed were atrocity factories are somehow fundamentally different now because a new guy is president. we have an immigration system that's punitive on purpose: if you get caught trying to cross the border we won't just turn you away, we will imprison you in horrifically overcrowded, unhygienic camps, during a pandemic, where you won't be able to get at a lawyer and when we feel like it we'll send you back to whatever politically or environmentally unstable place you started off from (and guess whose fault most of that instability is!)
the main point isn't even to keep people out, the racists that staff ICE and CBP will do whatever racist shit they think they can get away with (a lot), but the main point is to set it up so that the people who do make it through and find work in the US have extremely compelling reasons at the very front of their minds why it would be a bad idea to rock the boat re: the massive amounts of all kinds of abuse that migrant workers have to deal with all the time. it is a ploy to keep a permanent underclass that capital can not pay or sexually assault if they feel like it
the current conditions in the concentration camps (which are not especially an improvement on the conditions six months ago) are secondary. the basic concept is violence
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
There is a need to push a cultural narrative that questions the value of strict borders, which unfortunately will be especially hard after the whole international plague thing even though we got it from friggin' Europe. More stories like that river crossing where folks from the US and Mexico meet up to party, maybe try to get states to introduce soft border towns where people can mingle like they're at an international airport or something.
One of the craziest things was standing on the Mexican side of the old iron wall at the beach between Tijuana and San Diego and seeing the gate where they let families through once a year to visit and the “altar” on each side where this one church holds an international service simultaneously in English and Spanish with the priests standing back-to-back a few feet apart with said old iron wall/fence between them
That wall was put up many decades before Trump and our Mexican tour guide said it wasn’t to keep
Mexicans out, it was to keep folks from further south out and Mexicans understood and still loved the US (this was Feb 2020) and I’m just gonna leave that hanging there cause it’s all fucked up- love, family, and humanity transcends borders and the stupid hunks of metal we put up across them
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
'The camps are dangerously overcrowded' and 'They shouldn't open more camps' are both ideas. Not sure it makes sense to argue them both at the same time.
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
'The camps are dangerously overcrowded' and 'They shouldn't open more camps' are both ideas. Not sure it makes sense to argue them both at the same time.
Open border scaremongering when they haven't been mentioned is a pretty standard feature of right wing discourse, much of vile. Unless the person you're talking is about it specifically, invoking open borders out of nowhere is just not something I'm down with. If I don't mention open borders, I don't really appreciate someone dropping their open borders quotes on me.
Republicans smear with open borders by making straw men with people who don't subscribe to that idea, like Biden. They think he's ok with open borders. When people openly endorse that idea and it significantly frames their arguments over immigration we should be able to call a spade a spade. When someone speaks about doing open borders without actually saying those who words don't make them not ok with open borders. That's not scaremongering in any sense of the word, its disingenuous to not acknowledge that fact when its injected in arguments over immigration. And its not just about you, you're not the only person in the thread who advocates for open borders.
I'll advocate for open borders. Borders are dumb and arbitrary.
Especially a border established when the region was taken by force in war from the country now on the other side of it.
Of course people want to cross it. It's good land that helped massively in making us wealthy. That's why we stole it. People are always going to try to come here, we can't stop it all we can do is choose how to handle it.
I'll advocate for open borders. Borders are dumb and arbitrary.
Especially a border established when the region was taken by force in war from the country now on the other side of it.
Of course people want to cross it. It's good land that helped massively in making us wealthy. That's why we stole it. People are always going to try to come here, we can't stop it all we can do is choose how to handle it.
Right now we chose concentration camps.
Trump chose concentration camps, Biden wants to put immigrants in hotels and open the country for millions of immigrants. They don't have the same goals with immigration. Trump didn't even believe in legal immigration.
I'll advocate for open borders. Borders are dumb and arbitrary.
Especially a border established when the region was taken by force in war from the country now on the other side of it.
Of course people want to cross it. It's good land that helped massively in making us wealthy. That's why we stole it. People are always going to try to come here, we can't stop it all we can do is choose how to handle it.
Right now we chose concentration camps.
Trump chose concentration camps, Biden wants to put immigrants in hotels and open the country for millions of immigrants. They don't have the same goals with immigration. Trump didn't even believe in legal immigration.
Trump was a huge supporter of the worst aspects of anti-immigration policy which Biden's reversing. Biden sure as shit isn't continuing the line of stopping legal immigration and keeping immigrants in those camps where ICE get to kill them at their leisure.
okay but you said "trump chose concentration camps" like it was his idea and he started the immigration system that's currently in use. this is false. you can blame him for making an already bad system worse but you can't blame him for starting that system
everything bad about the united states doesn't start and end with trump
I'll advocate for open borders. Borders are dumb and arbitrary.
Especially a border established when the region was taken by force in war from the country now on the other side of it.
Of course people want to cross it. It's good land that helped massively in making us wealthy. That's why we stole it. People are always going to try to come here, we can't stop it all we can do is choose how to handle it.
Right now we chose concentration camps.
Trump chose concentration camps, Biden wants to put immigrants in hotels and open the country for millions of immigrants. They don't have the same goals with immigration. Trump didn't even believe in legal immigration.
Trump was in charge of the US, and that's who we were for those four years. (arguably longer but let's pretend right now.)
We chose concentration camps. For a lot of us that choice was forced upon us, but it was made nonetheless.
i don't know, i think "don't imprison people in concentration camps" is a pretty logically consistent idea personally
It's not really consistent where there's been no credible idea for what else to do with unaccompanied minors while you make sure the people you are handing them off to are going to take care of them.
Cause that's what the camps you are talking about are for as far as I can see reported. They won't turn away unaccompanied minors, so they get put into the system while someone contacts whoever they were supposed to meet and makes sure it's all fine and then hand them off. But the whole system is massively backlogged and they don't have enough space for all the kids.
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
'The camps are dangerously overcrowded' and 'They shouldn't open more camps' are both ideas. Not sure it makes sense to argue them both at the same time.
They don't actually have to put people in camps.
You do need to hold people until they are processed. That is like a fundamental part of having a border and these camps aren't even the "being processed" situation. They are the overflow from the ORR facilities and the ORR overflow facilities that were already swamped.
The options for the near future are "camps" or "turn away" because the number of unaccompanied children has massively outstripped the rate at which they can be processed through by ORR.
I'll advocate for open borders. Borders are dumb and arbitrary.
Especially a border established when the region was taken by force in war from the country now on the other side of it.
Of course people want to cross it. It's good land that helped massively in making us wealthy. That's why we stole it. People are always going to try to come here, we can't stop it all we can do is choose how to handle it.
Right now we chose concentration camps.
Trump chose concentration camps, Biden wants to put immigrants in hotels and open the country for millions of immigrants. They don't have the same goals with immigration. Trump didn't even believe in legal immigration.
So, setting aside you trying to frame a yet-to-be-started policy that puts some migrant families in hotels into implying Biden wants to put all immigrants up in hotels and administrative goals of reversing reductions of work visas, education visas, and various other methods that the Trump administration used to whittle away legal access for foreigners to come to the country legally for limited periods of time as "opening the country for millions of immigrants"
Exactly how many facilities were opened under the Trump administration specifically, and how many of those facilities have been closed down by the Biden administration?
The facilities pictured in the links on the first page of this thread? Those are taken inside a "temporary border facility" that was erected February of this year.
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
'The camps are dangerously overcrowded' and 'They shouldn't open more camps' are both ideas. Not sure it makes sense to argue them both at the same time.
They don't actually have to put people in camps.
You do need to hold people until they are processed. That is like a fundamental part of having a border and these camps aren't even the "being processed" situation. They are the overflow from the ORR facilities and the ORR overflow facilities that were already swamped.
The options for the near future are "camps" or "turn away" because the number of unaccompanied children has massively outstripped the rate at which they can be processed through by ORR.
No we don't.
You may as well tell me that we have to hold everyone accused of a crime in jail until their court date.
Like if they were putting them in actual otherwise unused prisons-not under lockdown in the cells- it'd be an improvement and I'd be generally fine with it.
i don't know, i think "don't imprison people in concentration camps" is a pretty logically consistent idea personally
It's not really consistent where there's been no credible idea for what else to do with unaccompanied minors while you make sure the people you are handing them off to are going to take care of them.
Cause that's what the camps you are talking about are for as far as I can see reported. They won't turn away unaccompanied minors, so they get put into the system while someone contacts whoever they were supposed to meet and makes sure it's all fine and then hand them off. But the whole system is massively backlogged and they don't have enough space for all the kids.
How many times does a person have to scream that foster care exists before we can agree maybe we should put them in foster care if necessary instead of prison camps
okay but you said "trump chose concentration camps" like it was his idea and he started the immigration system that's currently in use. this is false. you can blame him for making an already bad system worse but you can't blame him for starting that system
everything bad about the united states doesn't start and end with trump
Nothing I said was incorrect. Trump did choose those camps, it wants something he had no say in. Sure Trump wasn't the only person involved in making concentration camps in America, nobody's denying that but its something else entirely to say American policy in immigration hasn't changed from president to president over the years. And yes, it was his idea. He based his camps on the ones in Australia. I didn't say he started the entire horrible immigration system.
True, but that shouldn't allow us to say what Trump did was just normal immigration policy which Biden is following to the letter.
i don't know, i think "don't imprison people in concentration camps" is a pretty logically consistent idea personally
It's not really consistent where there's been no credible idea for what else to do with unaccompanied minors while you make sure the people you are handing them off to are going to take care of them.
Cause that's what the camps you are talking about are for as far as I can see reported. They won't turn away unaccompanied minors, so they get put into the system while someone contacts whoever they were supposed to meet and makes sure it's all fine and then hand them off. But the whole system is massively backlogged and they don't have enough space for all the kids.
there's plenty of credible ideas for what else to do with unaccompanied minors than to stack them like cordwood in concentration camps built to imprison a tenth the number of people that are currently imprisoned, actually, especially when you consider that the feds are paying the private corporation that actually runs a bunch of the child concentration camps something like $250,000 a year per kid. if the government is willing to front that kind of money then the sky's the limit!
when you get down to it the truth is there's not a lot of ways the government could be doing worse at this than they are right now
i don't know, i think "don't imprison people in concentration camps" is a pretty logically consistent idea personally
It's not really consistent where there's been no credible idea for what else to do with unaccompanied minors while you make sure the people you are handing them off to are going to take care of them.
Cause that's what the camps you are talking about are for as far as I can see reported. They won't turn away unaccompanied minors, so they get put into the system while someone contacts whoever they were supposed to meet and makes sure it's all fine and then hand them off. But the whole system is massively backlogged and they don't have enough space for all the kids.
How many times does a person have to scream that foster care exists before we can agree maybe we should put them in foster care if necessary instead of prison camps
You mean the foster system that is already overloaded? Not to mention that under Trump the idea of placing these kids with white conservative christian families was viewed very negatively.
A ton of these kids have someone to meet up with on the other side and it's just a matter of those people getting vetted before the kids are handed off.
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
'The camps are dangerously overcrowded' and 'They shouldn't open more camps' are both ideas. Not sure it makes sense to argue them both at the same time.
They don't actually have to put people in camps.
You do need to hold people until they are processed. That is like a fundamental part of having a border and these camps aren't even the "being processed" situation. They are the overflow from the ORR facilities and the ORR overflow facilities that were already swamped.
The options for the near future are "camps" or "turn away" because the number of unaccompanied children has massively outstripped the rate at which they can be processed through by ORR.
No we don't.
That is a minority opinion in the senate. So since there isn’t the political will to release everyone and “open the border.” Then we need to get funding and put the contracts and hiring into place to get them processed quickly. Honestly, given the speed of govt contracts, this will likely be resolved by September.
okay but you said "trump chose concentration camps" like it was his idea and he started the immigration system that's currently in use. this is false. you can blame him for making an already bad system worse but you can't blame him for starting that system
everything bad about the united states doesn't start and end with trump
Nothing I said was incorrect. Trump did choose those camps, it wants something he had no say in. Sure Trump wasn't the only person involved in making concentration camps in America, nobody's denying that but its something else entirely to say American policy in immigration hasn't changed from president to president over the years. And yes, it was his idea. He based his camps on the ones in Australia. I didn't say he started the entire horrible immigration system.
True, but that shouldn't allow us to say what Trump did was just normal immigration policy which Biden is following to the letter.
it is normal immigration policy, it has been for more than a decade! trump cranked up the artificial cruelty a bunch, but it is exactly the same system that obama developed from the federal agencies that bush the younger instituted. trump's immigration policy is a direct continuation of obama's
i don't know, i think "don't imprison people in concentration camps" is a pretty logically consistent idea personally
It's not really consistent where there's been no credible idea for what else to do with unaccompanied minors while you make sure the people you are handing them off to are going to take care of them.
Cause that's what the camps you are talking about are for as far as I can see reported. They won't turn away unaccompanied minors, so they get put into the system while someone contacts whoever they were supposed to meet and makes sure it's all fine and then hand them off. But the whole system is massively backlogged and they don't have enough space for all the kids.
How many times does a person have to scream that foster care exists before we can agree maybe we should put them in foster care if necessary instead of prison camps
This is extremely naive. There are a limited amount of foster families available, particularly ones with relevant language skills. Scarcity exists outside Republican fantasies, you know. They tried this back in the Obama days and simply ran out of foster families. This is a big problem not just a "Oh why don't they just" problem.
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
i don't know, i think "don't imprison people in concentration camps" is a pretty logically consistent idea personally
It's not really consistent where there's been no credible idea for what else to do with unaccompanied minors while you make sure the people you are handing them off to are going to take care of them.
Cause that's what the camps you are talking about are for as far as I can see reported. They won't turn away unaccompanied minors, so they get put into the system while someone contacts whoever they were supposed to meet and makes sure it's all fine and then hand them off. But the whole system is massively backlogged and they don't have enough space for all the kids.
How many times does a person have to scream that foster care exists before we can agree maybe we should put them in foster care if necessary instead of prison camps
This is extremely naive. There are a limited amount of foster families available, particularly ones with relevant language skills. Scarcity exists outside Republican fantasies, you know. They tried this back in the Obama days and simply ran out of foster families. This is a big problem not just a "Oh why don't they just" problem.
Foster care is a nightmare in the US. You are more likely to get abused and assaulted in foster care than in prison.
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
'The camps are dangerously overcrowded' and 'They shouldn't open more camps' are both ideas. Not sure it makes sense to argue them both at the same time.
They don't actually have to put people in camps.
You do need to hold people until they are processed. That is like a fundamental part of having a border and these camps aren't even the "being processed" situation. They are the overflow from the ORR facilities and the ORR overflow facilities that were already swamped.
The options for the near future are "camps" or "turn away" because the number of unaccompanied children has massively outstripped the rate at which they can be processed through by ORR.
No we don't.
That is a minority opinion in the senate. So since there isn’t the political will to release everyone and “open the border.” Then we need to get funding and put the contracts and hiring into place to get them processed quickly. Honestly, given the speed of govt contracts, this will likely be resolved by September.
I said nothing about scarequotes open borders.
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
'The camps are dangerously overcrowded' and 'They shouldn't open more camps' are both ideas. Not sure it makes sense to argue them both at the same time.
They don't actually have to put people in camps.
You do need to hold people until they are processed. That is like a fundamental part of having a border and these camps aren't even the "being processed" situation. They are the overflow from the ORR facilities and the ORR overflow facilities that were already swamped.
The options for the near future are "camps" or "turn away" because the number of unaccompanied children has massively outstripped the rate at which they can be processed through by ORR.
No we don't.
That is a minority opinion in the senate. So since there isn’t the political will to release everyone and “open the border.” Then we need to get funding and put the contracts and hiring into place to get them processed quickly. Honestly, given the speed of govt contracts, this will likely be resolved by September.
I said nothing about scarequotes open borders.
I hear you, and I agree with you, cut the adults loose, and then your only worried about placing 3000 kids. And it’s not a big effort to cut loose adults. Here is your court date, see you then.
But that’s what it would be portrayed as, opening the borders scare quotes.
i don't know, i think "don't imprison people in concentration camps" is a pretty logically consistent idea personally
It's not really consistent where there's been no credible idea for what else to do with unaccompanied minors while you make sure the people you are handing them off to are going to take care of them.
Cause that's what the camps you are talking about are for as far as I can see reported. They won't turn away unaccompanied minors, so they get put into the system while someone contacts whoever they were supposed to meet and makes sure it's all fine and then hand them off. But the whole system is massively backlogged and they don't have enough space for all the kids.
How many times does a person have to scream that foster care exists before we can agree maybe we should put them in foster care if necessary instead of prison camps
Probably as many times as it needs to be said that the foster care system absolutely could not handle this. It would be an identical situation with a different name. Placing children takes a lot of time even if it is with known family.
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
'The camps are dangerously overcrowded' and 'They shouldn't open more camps' are both ideas. Not sure it makes sense to argue them both at the same time.
They don't actually have to put people in camps.
You do need to hold people until they are processed. That is like a fundamental part of having a border and these camps aren't even the "being processed" situation. They are the overflow from the ORR facilities and the ORR overflow facilities that were already swamped.
The options for the near future are "camps" or "turn away" because the number of unaccompanied children has massively outstripped the rate at which they can be processed through by ORR.
No we don't.
You may as well tell me that we have to hold everyone accused of a crime in jail until their court date.
Like if they were putting them in actual otherwise unused prisons-not under lockdown in the cells- it'd be an improvement and I'd be generally fine with it.
Yes, we kinda do. We can take issue with how long that takes, but you do have to have them while processing them. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to get the information on deportation hearings, etc. Not having them while you process them would literally be open borders. Not trying to scare monger (I believe in open borders personally) but it is the reality of it.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
"Don't come over" is inherent to enforced borders. But there is "don't come over you're wasting our resources and yours" and "don't come over or we'll steal your children and give them away".
"Don't come over illegally, we have a process for getting in" is inherent to enforced borders, first of all. The way you stated it is the isolationist desire of Republicans.
Second, there is nothing wrong with bringing up the idea of "we need to update that process," especially when the current process results in concentration camps and turning refugees away.
Hence this fucking thread existing and the issue being part of national discussion. Holy shit.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Attempting to keep people from "flooding" the country is a regressive and bad policy and we should be pushing back against it. Immigrants are a net positive for any nation smart enough to welcome them.
Unfortunately, no nation is smart enough to welcome them. The USA is one of the most welcoming countries in the world where immigrants are concerned... and the USA hates immigrants.
Most people would rather live in a town populated only by people like them even if it means they are much poorer than they would be in a diverse town.
You are now tasked with listing all other countries' immigration policies, as a point of citation. I will gladly wait.
Attempting to keep people from "flooding" the country is a regressive and bad policy and we should be pushing back against it. Immigrants are a net positive for any nation smart enough to welcome them.
Unfortunately, no nation is smart enough to welcome them. The USA is one of the most welcoming countries in the world where immigrants are concerned... and the USA hates immigrants.
Most people would rather live in a town populated only by people like them even if it means they are much poorer than they would be in a diverse town.
You are now tasked with listing all other countries' immigration policies, as a point of citation. I will gladly wait.
i don't know, i think "don't imprison people in concentration camps" is a pretty logically consistent idea personally
It's not really consistent where there's been no credible idea for what else to do with unaccompanied minors while you make sure the people you are handing them off to are going to take care of them.
Cause that's what the camps you are talking about are for as far as I can see reported. They won't turn away unaccompanied minors, so they get put into the system while someone contacts whoever they were supposed to meet and makes sure it's all fine and then hand them off. But the whole system is massively backlogged and they don't have enough space for all the kids.
How many times does a person have to scream that foster care exists before we can agree maybe we should put them in foster care if necessary instead of prison camps
Probably as many times as it needs to be said that the foster care system absolutely could not handle this. It would be an identical situation with a different name. Placing children takes a lot of time even if it is with known family.
There' a big difference between "it's going to take a long, long time, and be very very hard" and "it's an idealistic...dingbat pipe dream".
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
'The camps are dangerously overcrowded' and 'They shouldn't open more camps' are both ideas. Not sure it makes sense to argue them both at the same time.
They don't actually have to put people in camps.
You do need to hold people until they are processed. That is like a fundamental part of having a border and these camps aren't even the "being processed" situation. They are the overflow from the ORR facilities and the ORR overflow facilities that were already swamped.
The options for the near future are "camps" or "turn away" because the number of unaccompanied children has massively outstripped the rate at which they can be processed through by ORR.
No we don't.
You may as well tell me that we have to hold everyone accused of a crime in jail until their court date.
Like if they were putting them in actual otherwise unused prisons-not under lockdown in the cells- it'd be an improvement and I'd be generally fine with it.
Yes, we kinda do. We can take issue with how long that takes, but you do have to have them while processing them. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to get the information on deportation hearings, etc. Not having them while you process them would literally be open borders. Not trying to scare monger (I believe in open borders personally) but it is the reality of it.
Have you heard of a parole officer? Same basic concept here.
Again, may as well argue that we have to hold everyone accused of a crime until their trial date. We might lose track of them if we didn't. And really, it's for their own good - what if their lawyer couldn't get ahold of them and the court date changed or they needed more information from them for the case?
Posts
the main point isn't even to keep people out, the racists that staff ICE and CBP will do whatever racist shit they think they can get away with (a lot), but the main point is to set it up so that the people who do make it through and find work in the US have extremely compelling reasons at the very front of their minds why it would be a bad idea to rock the boat re: the massive amounts of all kinds of abuse that migrant workers have to deal with all the time. it is a ploy to keep a permanent underclass that capital can not pay or sexually assault if they feel like it
the current conditions in the concentration camps (which are not especially an improvement on the conditions six months ago) are secondary. the basic concept is violence
hitting hot metal with hammers
hitting hot metal with hammers
It's been 73 days. At this point Biden's refusal to cast Mordenkainen's Decent Detention Facility is inexcusable. "Congress won't appropriate the required material components" is hogwash and he should have known ICE Agents were going to hide all the miniature silver spoons worth at least 5gp.
One of the craziest things was standing on the Mexican side of the old iron wall at the beach between Tijuana and San Diego and seeing the gate where they let families through once a year to visit and the “altar” on each side where this one church holds an international service simultaneously in English and Spanish with the priests standing back-to-back a few feet apart with said old iron wall/fence between them
That wall was put up many decades before Trump and our Mexican tour guide said it wasn’t to keep
Mexicans out, it was to keep folks from further south out and Mexicans understood and still loved the US (this was Feb 2020) and I’m just gonna leave that hanging there cause it’s all fucked up- love, family, and humanity transcends borders and the stupid hunks of metal we put up across them
Nor the literally millions of others our system is unfairly abusing right now in the US alone.
They Have Opened New Camps Since Biden Took Office
if they said "look we know the situation is fucked, we're working on it," and then not opened new camps that'd be something, but instead biden said "go home, we're full" and opened new camps
also like, this is exactly what i was talking about in that post. thanks for that, i guess
e: if you want to talk about a reasonable rate of progress that might be a conversation worth having, but what's happening now is not progress! more people locked up in camps than before is not progress!
hitting hot metal with hammers
It was a good reminder that we’ve always been really bad about this regardless of which party was in charge
'The camps are dangerously overcrowded' and 'They shouldn't open more camps' are both ideas. Not sure it makes sense to argue them both at the same time.
hitting hot metal with hammers
They don't actually have to put people in camps.
Republicans smear with open borders by making straw men with people who don't subscribe to that idea, like Biden. They think he's ok with open borders. When people openly endorse that idea and it significantly frames their arguments over immigration we should be able to call a spade a spade. When someone speaks about doing open borders without actually saying those who words don't make them not ok with open borders. That's not scaremongering in any sense of the word, its disingenuous to not acknowledge that fact when its injected in arguments over immigration. And its not just about you, you're not the only person in the thread who advocates for open borders.
Especially a border established when the region was taken by force in war from the country now on the other side of it.
Of course people want to cross it. It's good land that helped massively in making us wealthy. That's why we stole it. People are always going to try to come here, we can't stop it all we can do is choose how to handle it.
Right now we chose concentration camps.
Trump chose concentration camps, Biden wants to put immigrants in hotels and open the country for millions of immigrants. They don't have the same goals with immigration. Trump didn't even believe in legal immigration.
it wasn't trump that started this
hitting hot metal with hammers
Trump was a huge supporter of the worst aspects of anti-immigration policy which Biden's reversing. Biden sure as shit isn't continuing the line of stopping legal immigration and keeping immigrants in those camps where ICE get to kill them at their leisure.
everything bad about the united states doesn't start and end with trump
hitting hot metal with hammers
Trump was in charge of the US, and that's who we were for those four years. (arguably longer but let's pretend right now.)
We chose concentration camps. For a lot of us that choice was forced upon us, but it was made nonetheless.
It's not really consistent where there's been no credible idea for what else to do with unaccompanied minors while you make sure the people you are handing them off to are going to take care of them.
Cause that's what the camps you are talking about are for as far as I can see reported. They won't turn away unaccompanied minors, so they get put into the system while someone contacts whoever they were supposed to meet and makes sure it's all fine and then hand them off. But the whole system is massively backlogged and they don't have enough space for all the kids.
You do need to hold people until they are processed. That is like a fundamental part of having a border and these camps aren't even the "being processed" situation. They are the overflow from the ORR facilities and the ORR overflow facilities that were already swamped.
The options for the near future are "camps" or "turn away" because the number of unaccompanied children has massively outstripped the rate at which they can be processed through by ORR.
So, setting aside you trying to frame a yet-to-be-started policy that puts some migrant families in hotels into implying Biden wants to put all immigrants up in hotels and administrative goals of reversing reductions of work visas, education visas, and various other methods that the Trump administration used to whittle away legal access for foreigners to come to the country legally for limited periods of time as "opening the country for millions of immigrants"
Exactly how many facilities were opened under the Trump administration specifically, and how many of those facilities have been closed down by the Biden administration?
The facilities pictured in the links on the first page of this thread? Those are taken inside a "temporary border facility" that was erected February of this year.
No we don't.
You may as well tell me that we have to hold everyone accused of a crime in jail until their court date.
EDIT: Oh wait, now I remember what you said earlier. You literally said we should house these people in unused prisons.
How many times does a person have to scream that foster care exists before we can agree maybe we should put them in foster care if necessary instead of prison camps
Nothing I said was incorrect. Trump did choose those camps, it wants something he had no say in. Sure Trump wasn't the only person involved in making concentration camps in America, nobody's denying that but its something else entirely to say American policy in immigration hasn't changed from president to president over the years. And yes, it was his idea. He based his camps on the ones in Australia. I didn't say he started the entire horrible immigration system.
True, but that shouldn't allow us to say what Trump did was just normal immigration policy which Biden is following to the letter.
there's plenty of credible ideas for what else to do with unaccompanied minors than to stack them like cordwood in concentration camps built to imprison a tenth the number of people that are currently imprisoned, actually, especially when you consider that the feds are paying the private corporation that actually runs a bunch of the child concentration camps something like $250,000 a year per kid. if the government is willing to front that kind of money then the sky's the limit!
when you get down to it the truth is there's not a lot of ways the government could be doing worse at this than they are right now
hitting hot metal with hammers
You mean the foster system that is already overloaded? Not to mention that under Trump the idea of placing these kids with white conservative christian families was viewed very negatively.
A ton of these kids have someone to meet up with on the other side and it's just a matter of those people getting vetted before the kids are handed off.
it is normal immigration policy, it has been for more than a decade! trump cranked up the artificial cruelty a bunch, but it is exactly the same system that obama developed from the federal agencies that bush the younger instituted. trump's immigration policy is a direct continuation of obama's
hitting hot metal with hammers
This is extremely naive. There are a limited amount of foster families available, particularly ones with relevant language skills. Scarcity exists outside Republican fantasies, you know. They tried this back in the Obama days and simply ran out of foster families. This is a big problem not just a "Oh why don't they just" problem.
I said nothing about scarequotes open borders.
But that’s what it would be portrayed as, opening the borders scare quotes.
Probably as many times as it needs to be said that the foster care system absolutely could not handle this. It would be an identical situation with a different name. Placing children takes a lot of time even if it is with known family.
Yes, we kinda do. We can take issue with how long that takes, but you do have to have them while processing them. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to get the information on deportation hearings, etc. Not having them while you process them would literally be open borders. Not trying to scare monger (I believe in open borders personally) but it is the reality of it.
Second, there is nothing wrong with bringing up the idea of "we need to update that process," especially when the current process results in concentration camps and turning refugees away.
Hence this fucking thread existing and the issue being part of national discussion. Holy shit.
It's short: they all suck.
Have you heard of a parole officer? Same basic concept here.
Again, may as well argue that we have to hold everyone accused of a crime until their trial date. We might lose track of them if we didn't. And really, it's for their own good - what if their lawyer couldn't get ahold of them and the court date changed or they needed more information from them for the case?