You don’t need to blackmail Manchin. Just investigate his daughter as normal. Surely the media will cover this important development so the voters can be informed.
So with that clarification, it seems like Manchin is enough of an intransigent asshole that I think he would be just as likely to double down in the face of blackmail / extortion where the threat is investigation of him / his daughter. Being rich he could fight the investigation for years and likely walk if charges are ever brought and is just as likely to throw in with McConnell to investigate this abuse of power.
It seems the better route would be for Biden and Schumer if they are going to commit crimes to pass the $3.5T bill is instead to wiretap / black-bag Republican Senators to find a few who have big vulnerabilities, and then directly blackmail them into abstaining from the vote. Pick two of the feckless cowards off, and even if Manchin votes no you end up with a 49-49 tie and the bill passes.
Edit - just a hypothetical thought exercise if we're going to put those kinds of things on the table, of course.
The cool thing about going after his corrupt daughter is that if it doesnt make him rethink the value of being public enemy number one, and the ways that might undermine traditional class protections, you still get to go after his corrupt daughter.
If you think they should investigate his daughter for corruption because you think she is corrupt, that is different from thinking it should be done primarily as leverage against Manchin, which is extremely corrupt in itself and requires at least an implicit agreement where people can make corruption problems go away by voting for a bill
With the former, it shouldn't matter what Manchin is doing because corruption should be investigated regardless of who is doing it and regardless of what they are doing to help advance your political agenda
The justice department should be going after every corrupt son and daughter of every representative and senator.
You forgot President.
I mean they threw a shitload of accusations at Biden's son, but fuck me if it wasn't clear as a bell the three adult Trump children aren't neck deep in corruption and illegality.
it's worth remembering that illegal and immoral are not the same thing
you have to think about context and consequences
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
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it's worth remembering that illegal and immoral are not the same thing
you have to think about context and consequences
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
see, this is exactly the problem — you're arguing that the proposed behavior arguably counts as the crime of extortion, so we can skip straight to knowing that it is always bad and wrong, and that saves us the trouble of thinking about the context or consequences
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it's worth remembering that illegal and immoral are not the same thing
you have to think about context and consequences
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
see, this is exactly the problem — you're arguing that the proposed behavior arguably counts as the crime of extortion, so we can skip straight to knowing that it is always bad and wrong, and that saves us the trouble of thinking about the context or consequences
What is being proposed definitely counts as the crime of extortion.
Opening a criminal investigation against someone's children with the intent of forcing them to support a bill is about as clearly illegal and corrupt abuse of power as you could hope to come up with.
Edit - and to be fair, since I think there is 0 possibility it will succeed and almost certainly will backfire horribly it takes any interesting parts out of the discussion beyond yet another general 'ends justify the means' debate.
it's worth remembering that illegal and immoral are not the same thing
you have to think about context and consequences
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
Also hilariously corrupt in and of itself because the only way you can use a corruption investigation to pressure Manchin is if you then squash that investigation in return for his cooperation. ie - to get what you want you have to become complicit in covering up the corruption you are using as leverage. That's why it's leverage. Like, have people forgotten how extortion works or something?
it's worth remembering that illegal and immoral are not the same thing
you have to think about context and consequences
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
Also hilariously corrupt in and of itself because the only way you can use a corruption investigation to pressure Manchin is if you then squash that investigation in return for his cooperation. ie - to get what you want you have to become complicit in covering up the corruption you are using as leverage. That's why it's leverage. Like, have people forgotten how extortion works or something?
Nah you just end up agreeing on a slap on the wrist.
Corruption is when you abuse official power for personal gain, at the expense of the public
Extortion, generally, is when you use power or threats to extract a personal gain for yourself
Is it corrupt, and extremely harmful, that Manchin and Sinema are choosing to immiserate millions of vulnerable people, in exchange for big corporate donations? Yes, definitely
Would it be extortion to bully Manchin and Sinema into serving the public better? No, I don't think so, if the real goal (and effect) is to reduce corruption, and not to enrich Joe Biden
This is all theoretical, and there's plenty of room for reasonable disagreement about what counts as extortion, what tactical decisions would work best, etc. But even in an extreme case, if Biden could somehow extort Manchin and Sinema into being less corrupt, and less harmful, I think the real ethical question has to be: How do you justify not doing it?
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+6
Options
HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
If we're not going to promote extorting action from Manchin and Sinema via thorough investigations (be it them directly or those in their orbit, family included), what options remain? Seems like primary threats and voting have been discussed to death, and we're not to do anything which might set off their tempers or make them too uncomfortable for fear of party-switching, so we're left with what? Nothing?
Or to put it another way: if following the rules brought us to this point, what good are those rules?
it's worth remembering that illegal and immoral are not the same thing
you have to think about context and consequences
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
Also hilariously corrupt in and of itself because the only way you can use a corruption investigation to pressure Manchin is if you then squash that investigation in return for his cooperation. ie - to get what you want you have to become complicit in covering up the corruption you are using as leverage. That's why it's leverage. Like, have people forgotten how extortion works or something?
Nah you just end up agreeing on a slap on the wrist.
Which would be less then what the corruption actually deserves. Otherwise you are giving him nothing in return for his cooperation and there's no reason for him to cooperate.
Again, have you people forgotten how extortion works? You are forcing them to cooperate by threatening them with something. And you have to not do the thing you are threatening. That's how extortion works.
If we're not going to promote extorting action from Manchin and Sinema via thorough investigations (be it them directly or those in their orbit, family included), what options remain? Seems like primary threats and voting have been discussed to death, and we're not to do anything which might set off their tempers or make them too uncomfortable for fear of party-switching, so we're left with what? Nothing?
Or to put it another way: if following the rules brought us to this point, what good are those rules?
Live in a country of laws or live in a country of whims.
We spent the last 5 years pushing back abusing the government and ignoring laws. Just because you think your righteous enough to use the same tools for good as your opponent used them for evil you are wrong.
In truth what it looks like we have is negotiation, the fact Manchin wants his bi-partisan bill passed which the CPC is holding up. And the fact that maybe we won't win and it sucks and that happens when the margins are at a point that a single person wishing chaos can cause it and we can't go back in time and fix that.
it's worth remembering that illegal and immoral are not the same thing
you have to think about context and consequences
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
Also hilariously corrupt in and of itself because the only way you can use a corruption investigation to pressure Manchin is if you then squash that investigation in return for his cooperation. ie - to get what you want you have to become complicit in covering up the corruption you are using as leverage. That's why it's leverage. Like, have people forgotten how extortion works or something?
Nah you just end up agreeing on a slap on the wrist.
In what way is that not also a miscarriage of justice?
You’re literally saying that man chin’s daughter should be allowed to get away with jacking up the price of essential medicine if her father votes the way we want.
I thought we weren’t supposed to be shielding the relations of politicians from consequences?
it's worth remembering that illegal and immoral are not the same thing
you have to think about context and consequences
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
Also hilariously corrupt in and of itself because the only way you can use a corruption investigation to pressure Manchin is if you then squash that investigation in return for his cooperation. ie - to get what you want you have to become complicit in covering up the corruption you are using as leverage. That's why it's leverage. Like, have people forgotten how extortion works or something?
Nah you just end up agreeing on a slap on the wrist.
Which would be less then what the corruption actually deserves. Otherwise you are giving him nothing in return for his cooperation and there's no reason for him to cooperate.
Again, have you people forgotten how extortion works? You are forcing them to cooperate by threatening them with something. And you have to not do the thing you are threatening. That's how extortion works.
A slap on the wrist where much more serious charges might be brought seems like incentive to me
Its not necessary for you to ask so maby condescending questions, I promise you I know what these words mean just as well as you do Shryke.
I feel like it would be really easy to cajole Sinema and Manchin into doing what we want by just investigating their families for criminal wrongdoing like normal people otherwise face.
"Stop being a piece of shit by dragging your heels all the damn time or we're throwing federal charges at your daughter for her pharma-industry fuckery."
it's worth remembering that illegal and immoral are not the same thing
you have to think about context and consequences
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
Also hilariously corrupt in and of itself because the only way you can use a corruption investigation to pressure Manchin is if you then squash that investigation in return for his cooperation. ie - to get what you want you have to become complicit in covering up the corruption you are using as leverage. That's why it's leverage. Like, have people forgotten how extortion works or something?
Nah you just end up agreeing on a slap on the wrist.
In what way is that not also a miscarriage of justice?
You’re literally saying that man chin’s daughter should be allowed to get away with jacking up the price of essential medicine if her father votes the way we want.
I thought we weren’t supposed to be shielding the relations of politicians from consequences?
Id like to see these people behind bars and Id like to see serious climate change legislation. If it comes down to giving up the former to get the later then so be it, cant always have it all. The moral calculus on that one is clear to me.
And if you are going to do politically motivated investigations, investigate Republican senators in states with Democratic governors who can appoint their replacement.
You use those tools against your enemies not your nominal allies. That's Abuse of Power 101. You pay off / bribe people on your side.
it's worth remembering that illegal and immoral are not the same thing
you have to think about context and consequences
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
Also hilariously corrupt in and of itself because the only way you can use a corruption investigation to pressure Manchin is if you then squash that investigation in return for his cooperation. ie - to get what you want you have to become complicit in covering up the corruption you are using as leverage. That's why it's leverage. Like, have people forgotten how extortion works or something?
Nah you just end up agreeing on a slap on the wrist.
Which would be less then what the corruption actually deserves. Otherwise you are giving him nothing in return for his cooperation and there's no reason for him to cooperate.
Again, have you people forgotten how extortion works? You are forcing them to cooperate by threatening them with something. And you have to not do the thing you are threatening. That's how extortion works.
So imply you're going to do the thing but only if Manchin does the vote first. Then simply don't do the thing.
Manchin should be ok with this tactic, he does it a lot.
And if you are going to do politically motivated investigations, investigate Republican senators in states with Democratic governors who can appoint their replacement.
You use those tools against your enemies not your nominal allies. That's Abuse of Power 101. You pay off / bribe people on your side.
When it comes to, for instance, climate change legislation, Manchin is not even nominally "on our side".
If we're not going to promote extorting action from Manchin and Sinema via thorough investigations (be it them directly or those in their orbit, family included), what options remain? Seems like primary threats and voting have been discussed to death, and we're not to do anything which might set off their tempers or make them too uncomfortable for fear of party-switching, so we're left with what? Nothing?
Or to put it another way: if following the rules brought us to this point, what good are those rules?
Live in a country of laws or live in a country of whims.
We spent the last 5 years pushing back abusing the government and ignoring laws. Just because you think your righteous enough to use the same tools for good as your opponent used them for evil you are wrong.
In truth what it looks like we have is negotiation, the fact Manchin wants his bi-partisan bill passed which the CPC is holding up. And the fact that maybe we won't win and it sucks and that happens when the margins are at a point that a single person wishing chaos can cause it and we can't go back in time and fix that.
Again I ask you: if following the rules brought us to this point, what good are those rules?
again, this situation is very far removed from classic extortion, what it looks like, and why it's bad
when criminals walk around telling retail clerks, give me protection money or I'll break your kneecaps, of course that's corrosive to our society — and that's why extortion became a crime, to stop violent criminals from using threats to extract money from people
the moral calculus is completely different when Joe Biden tries to frighten Joe Manchin into being less flagrantly corrupt, in order to pass a popular new law that would lift millions of people out of poverty
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I think any argument that "this is legally corrupt and thus unacceptable" that does not also rely on demonstrating some real undue harm being done has to wrestle with just how little "legally corrupt" actually means in America in any moral sense.
If we're not going to promote extorting action from Manchin and Sinema via thorough investigations (be it them directly or those in their orbit, family included), what options remain? Seems like primary threats and voting have been discussed to death, and we're not to do anything which might set off their tempers or make them too uncomfortable for fear of party-switching, so we're left with what? Nothing?
Or to put it another way: if following the rules brought us to this point, what good are those rules?
Live in a country of laws or live in a country of whims.
We spent the last 5 years pushing back abusing the government and ignoring laws. Just because you think your righteous enough to use the same tools for good as your opponent used them for evil you are wrong.
In truth what it looks like we have is negotiation, the fact Manchin wants his bi-partisan bill passed which the CPC is holding up. And the fact that maybe we won't win and it sucks and that happens when the margins are at a point that a single person wishing chaos can cause it and we can't go back in time and fix that.
Again I ask you: if following the rules brought us to this point, what good are those rules?
You being angry doesn't magically make bad ideas into good ones, sorry.
edit: like even morals aside the most probable outcome of this proposal is "oops, GOP has the majority and you've also pissed off enough other Senators that you have 40 votes for reconciliation at best even if you could still do that, which you can't"
And if you are going to do politically motivated investigations, investigate Republican senators in states with Democratic governors who can appoint their replacement.
And even that's fairly pointless. There are six states with appropriately-empowered Democratic governors and Republican senators: Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Maine. (Wisconsin has no appointment, but a mandated special election.) Of those, Kentucky and North Carolina already require that the new senator be of the same party as the departed senator. Meanwhile, the rest have Republican legislatures that would have plenty of time to change the law after the investigation is announced, though Pennsylvania's majorities aren't too strong. So unless there's some reason to believe the worst about Collins or Toomey, this is purely academic.
Ok so I feel like this thread is just full on crazy pills talking about the best way to blackmail or extort a senator. And debating if blackmail or extortion are illegal or immoral which is a pretty easy answer but I guess we can debate anything???
I'm also not clear where the lines fall on what crimes and abuse of power are fine to propose and what is going too far because this is a pretty unprecedented discussion. Is Biden having the CIA perform black-bag jobs or wet work out of the question? How about fabricating documents and evidence? It seems like if we're doing blackmail that's not too far over the line either.
But the thing that's most frustrating is we're going to enter this with a hypothetical framing that it's ok for Schumer / Biden / etc to commit the crime of using the DoJ as a political weapon to go after Manchin's family because that will somehow get him to pass a $3.5T reconciliation bill. We're not going to do anything subtle, this is straight up 'I would like you to do us a favor' mob boss shit. Against a man who is the lynchpin of this bill passing and who seems more than happy to burn everything down and has more than once exhibited rage against people who even begin to ask about his family's potential corruption.
We're going to have an investigation that may or may not find crimes, that may or may not find corruption, but will likely take years before anyone sees a courtroom and even IF it does and IF there is a conviction mostly reinforces that Democrats are corrupt. With no real understanding given to how extortion works in the real world.
I feel like if anyone went through with this Coen Brothers grade plan it would be nothing but a disaster. And if you're willing to do this, there are plenty of other avenues that are more likely to be fruitful and no more illegal / unethical. Like, have Graham's doctor call him into the ER for dangerous <medical issue> the day of the vote. Have Murkowski's plane have a mechanical issue and divert to Minot so she can't vote against it.
There you go, Manchin's vote against the bill no longer matters. And you're not doing anything any more illegal than you would be doing before, and you're not risking Manchin blowing everything up.
And if you are going to do politically motivated investigations, investigate Republican senators in states with Democratic governors who can appoint their replacement.
You use those tools against your enemies not your nominal allies. That's Abuse of Power 101. You pay off / bribe people on your side.
Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm more aghast at the lack of principles inherent in trying to abuse power to extort people, or at how poorly thought out the plan is.
If the GOP has taught us anything, it should be that you need to be both corrupt AND competent to be effective. If you're going to be a blackhat, at least do a good job of it, jeez.
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I'm also not clear where the lines fall on what crimes and abuse of power are fine to propose and what is going too far because this is a pretty unprecedented discussion. Is Biden having the CIA perform black-bag jobs or wet work out of the question? How about fabricating documents and evidence? It seems like if we're doing blackmail that's not too far over the line either.
We're talking about using legal pressure over known wildly immoral and likely illegal activity to get a vote for absolutely critical legislation and you want to know if that means we'd be ok with murder?
I'm also not clear where the lines fall on what crimes and abuse of power are fine to propose and what is going too far because this is a pretty unprecedented discussion. Is Biden having the CIA perform black-bag jobs or wet work out of the question? How about fabricating documents and evidence? It seems like if we're doing blackmail that's not too far over the line either.
We're talking about using legal pressure over known wildly immoral and likely illegal activity to get a vote for absolutely critical legislation and you want to know if that means we'd be ok with murder?
This is definitely one of those "If you have to ask the question..."
I'm also not clear where the lines fall on what crimes and abuse of power are fine to propose and what is going too far because this is a pretty unprecedented discussion. Is Biden having the CIA perform black-bag jobs or wet work out of the question? How about fabricating documents and evidence? It seems like if we're doing blackmail that's not too far over the line either.
We're talking about using legal pressure over known wildly immoral and likely illegal activity to get a vote for absolutely critical legislation and you want to know if that means we'd be ok with murder?
This is definitely one of those "If you have to ask the question..."
You're the one asking that question, which is hyperbolic.
38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
The widespread nature of the corruption blocks anyone from initiating any type of coercion against each other. Manchin isn't interested in drug price regulation for the same reason Schumer isn't interested in regulating facebook. No one really wants to investigate lest they be investigated in return. I'm not sure how we change this.
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It seems the better route would be for Biden and Schumer if they are going to commit crimes to pass the $3.5T bill is instead to wiretap / black-bag Republican Senators to find a few who have big vulnerabilities, and then directly blackmail them into abstaining from the vote. Pick two of the feckless cowards off, and even if Manchin votes no you end up with a 49-49 tie and the bill passes.
Edit - just a hypothetical thought exercise if we're going to put those kinds of things on the table, of course.
With the former, it shouldn't matter what Manchin is doing because corruption should be investigated regardless of who is doing it and regardless of what they are doing to help advance your political agenda
Yes but that is because all should be equal under law. No matter who they are.
It still shouldn't be used as leverage.
you have to think about context and consequences
You forgot President.
I mean they threw a shitload of accusations at Biden's son, but fuck me if it wasn't clear as a bell the three adult Trump children aren't neck deep in corruption and illegality.
Fortunately, trying to extort and blackmail people by abusing the justice system is both, so it saves us that whole messy distinction.
see, this is exactly the problem — you're arguing that the proposed behavior arguably counts as the crime of extortion, so we can skip straight to knowing that it is always bad and wrong, and that saves us the trouble of thinking about the context or consequences
What is being proposed definitely counts as the crime of extortion.
Opening a criminal investigation against someone's children with the intent of forcing them to support a bill is about as clearly illegal and corrupt abuse of power as you could hope to come up with.
Edit - and to be fair, since I think there is 0 possibility it will succeed and almost certainly will backfire horribly it takes any interesting parts out of the discussion beyond yet another general 'ends justify the means' debate.
Also hilariously corrupt in and of itself because the only way you can use a corruption investigation to pressure Manchin is if you then squash that investigation in return for his cooperation. ie - to get what you want you have to become complicit in covering up the corruption you are using as leverage. That's why it's leverage. Like, have people forgotten how extortion works or something?
Nah you just end up agreeing on a slap on the wrist.
Corruption is when you abuse official power for personal gain, at the expense of the public
Extortion, generally, is when you use power or threats to extract a personal gain for yourself
Is it corrupt, and extremely harmful, that Manchin and Sinema are choosing to immiserate millions of vulnerable people, in exchange for big corporate donations? Yes, definitely
Would it be extortion to bully Manchin and Sinema into serving the public better? No, I don't think so, if the real goal (and effect) is to reduce corruption, and not to enrich Joe Biden
This is all theoretical, and there's plenty of room for reasonable disagreement about what counts as extortion, what tactical decisions would work best, etc. But even in an extreme case, if Biden could somehow extort Manchin and Sinema into being less corrupt, and less harmful, I think the real ethical question has to be: How do you justify not doing it?
Or to put it another way: if following the rules brought us to this point, what good are those rules?
Edit - nothing about corruption or extortion has an 'only personal gain counts'disclaimer.
Which would be less then what the corruption actually deserves. Otherwise you are giving him nothing in return for his cooperation and there's no reason for him to cooperate.
Again, have you people forgotten how extortion works? You are forcing them to cooperate by threatening them with something. And you have to not do the thing you are threatening. That's how extortion works.
Live in a country of laws or live in a country of whims.
We spent the last 5 years pushing back abusing the government and ignoring laws. Just because you think your righteous enough to use the same tools for good as your opponent used them for evil you are wrong.
In truth what it looks like we have is negotiation, the fact Manchin wants his bi-partisan bill passed which the CPC is holding up. And the fact that maybe we won't win and it sucks and that happens when the margins are at a point that a single person wishing chaos can cause it and we can't go back in time and fix that.
In what way is that not also a miscarriage of justice?
You’re literally saying that man chin’s daughter should be allowed to get away with jacking up the price of essential medicine if her father votes the way we want.
I thought we weren’t supposed to be shielding the relations of politicians from consequences?
A slap on the wrist where much more serious charges might be brought seems like incentive to me
Its not necessary for you to ask so maby condescending questions, I promise you I know what these words mean just as well as you do Shryke.
Id like to see these people behind bars and Id like to see serious climate change legislation. If it comes down to giving up the former to get the later then so be it, cant always have it all. The moral calculus on that one is clear to me.
You use those tools against your enemies not your nominal allies. That's Abuse of Power 101. You pay off / bribe people on your side.
So imply you're going to do the thing but only if Manchin does the vote first. Then simply don't do the thing.
Manchin should be ok with this tactic, he does it a lot.
When it comes to, for instance, climate change legislation, Manchin is not even nominally "on our side".
Fucking come on.
Of course he's a democrat. That doesnt mean he's on the side of, like the example I used, climate change legislation.
Again I ask you: if following the rules brought us to this point, what good are those rules?
when criminals walk around telling retail clerks, give me protection money or I'll break your kneecaps, of course that's corrosive to our society — and that's why extortion became a crime, to stop violent criminals from using threats to extract money from people
the moral calculus is completely different when Joe Biden tries to frighten Joe Manchin into being less flagrantly corrupt, in order to pass a popular new law that would lift millions of people out of poverty
You being angry doesn't magically make bad ideas into good ones, sorry.
edit: like even morals aside the most probable outcome of this proposal is "oops, GOP has the majority and you've also pissed off enough other Senators that you have 40 votes for reconciliation at best even if you could still do that, which you can't"
I'm also not clear where the lines fall on what crimes and abuse of power are fine to propose and what is going too far because this is a pretty unprecedented discussion. Is Biden having the CIA perform black-bag jobs or wet work out of the question? How about fabricating documents and evidence? It seems like if we're doing blackmail that's not too far over the line either.
But the thing that's most frustrating is we're going to enter this with a hypothetical framing that it's ok for Schumer / Biden / etc to commit the crime of using the DoJ as a political weapon to go after Manchin's family because that will somehow get him to pass a $3.5T reconciliation bill. We're not going to do anything subtle, this is straight up 'I would like you to do us a favor' mob boss shit. Against a man who is the lynchpin of this bill passing and who seems more than happy to burn everything down and has more than once exhibited rage against people who even begin to ask about his family's potential corruption.
We're going to have an investigation that may or may not find crimes, that may or may not find corruption, but will likely take years before anyone sees a courtroom and even IF it does and IF there is a conviction mostly reinforces that Democrats are corrupt. With no real understanding given to how extortion works in the real world.
I feel like if anyone went through with this Coen Brothers grade plan it would be nothing but a disaster. And if you're willing to do this, there are plenty of other avenues that are more likely to be fruitful and no more illegal / unethical. Like, have Graham's doctor call him into the ER for dangerous <medical issue> the day of the vote. Have Murkowski's plane have a mechanical issue and divert to Minot so she can't vote against it.
There you go, Manchin's vote against the bill no longer matters. And you're not doing anything any more illegal than you would be doing before, and you're not risking Manchin blowing everything up.
Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm more aghast at the lack of principles inherent in trying to abuse power to extort people, or at how poorly thought out the plan is.
If the GOP has taught us anything, it should be that you need to be both corrupt AND competent to be effective. If you're going to be a blackhat, at least do a good job of it, jeez.
We're talking about using legal pressure over known wildly immoral and likely illegal activity to get a vote for absolutely critical legislation and you want to know if that means we'd be ok with murder?
This is definitely one of those "If you have to ask the question..."
You're the one asking that question, which is hyperbolic.
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