[Except, again the solution is a bad solution that hurts people and demoralizes the sections of the base who aren’t xenophobic bigots.
What about the section of the base that wants immigration reform!?
Like. Sections of the base are not special. There are competing interests here and I know what you want but I dont see how your argument isnt just dismissive of like… everyone else and also actually being able to govern.
You might say “it’s different because I am right” but like.. Right doesn’t make might unfortunately
This immigration reform? Fuck em. Their wants suck shit.
[Except, again the solution is a bad solution that hurts people and demoralizes the sections of the base who aren’t xenophobic bigots.
What about the section of the base that wants immigration reform!?
Like. Sections of the base are not special. There are competing interests here and I know what you want but I dont see how your argument isnt just dismissive of like… everyone else and also actually being able to govern.
You might say “it’s different because I am right” but like.. Right doesn’t make might unfortunately
This immigration reform? Fuck em. Their wants suck shit.
This isn't immigration reform in any way, shape or form.
Just so we're clear, the appeals to solidarity with the hispanic / latino minority need to end in this thread, for everybody that cosigned a "sorry you can't have that" sentiment over this page and the last one regarding moderate reforms, the dead bill, or tighter border security in general. You're not in solidarity with the hispanic and latino Americans anymore.
I don't think that changes anyone's argument or shifts their position, but I feel like it's important to note because the broad cloak of unity with minority Americans is strong moral ground to argue from and it simply does not exist for those folks. And I mean, that's not even necessarily a bad thing! There are some compelling moral arguments for extremely permissive immigration policy - they just don't include a claim that you're shoulder to shoulder with hispanics and latinos here in the US. That population is not in agreement with one another on the issue, and y'all are some distance from the majority of them.
[Except, again the solution is a bad solution that hurts people and demoralizes the sections of the base who aren’t xenophobic bigots.
What about the section of the base that wants immigration reform!?
Like. Sections of the base are not special. There are competing interests here and I know what you want but I dont see how your argument isnt just dismissive of like… everyone else and also actually being able to govern.
You might say “it’s different because I am right” but like.. Right doesn’t make might unfortunately
There's a big tent. A lot of competing interests. There's a lot of people who jumped ship from republicans and are now Democrats. Guess what? They still have the same awful beliefs they did then. Just on different issues from one another. There's some that are racist, some that are homophobic, some that are xenophobic, some that are transphobic, some that don't care about the environment, some that are against government spending.
If we do this whole song and dance of "we gotta cater to the most rightward of group of Democrats on every issue" then no, there is actively no difference between the Democratic party and the Republican party. Basically we end up just being the Republican party but less visibility bigoted.
So while I don't think the party needs to be the party of socialists to be effective and progressive, this thing of "what about the part of the party that is actively just as hateful as the Republicans on this issue?"... I don't care. Why should those with the worst opinion in the room be the voice that's catered to? I'd take even a moderate voice over that.
[Except, again the solution is a bad solution that hurts people and demoralizes the sections of the base who aren’t xenophobic bigots.
What about the section of the base that wants immigration reform!?
Like. Sections of the base are not special. There are competing interests here and I know what you want but I dont see how your argument isnt just dismissive of like… everyone else and also actually being able to govern.
You might say “it’s different because I am right” but like.. Right doesn’t make might unfortunately
There's a big tent. A lot of competing interests. There's a lot of people who jumped ship from republicans and are now Democrats. Guess what? They still have the same awful beliefs they did then. Just on different issues from one another. There's some that are racist, some that are homophobic, some that are xenophobic, some that are transphobic, some that don't care about the environment, some that are against government spending.
If we do this whole song and dance of "we gotta cater to the most rightward of group of Democrats on every issue" then no, there is actively no difference between the Democratic party and the Republican party. Basically we end up just being the Republican party but less visibility bigoted.
So while I don't think the party needs to be the party of socialists to be effective and progressive, this thing of "what about the part of the party that is actively just as hateful as the Republicans on this issue?"... I don't care. Why should those with the worst opinion in the room be the voice that's catered to? I'd take even a moderate voice over that.
[Except, again the solution is a bad solution that hurts people and demoralizes the sections of the base who aren’t xenophobic bigots.
What about the section of the base that wants immigration reform!?
Like. Sections of the base are not special. There are competing interests here and I know what you want but I dont see how your argument isnt just dismissive of like… everyone else and also actually being able to govern.
You might say “it’s different because I am right” but like.. Right doesn’t make might unfortunately
There's a big tent. A lot of competing interests. There's a lot of people who jumped ship from republicans and are now Democrats. Guess what? They still have the same awful beliefs they did then. Just on different issues from one another. There's some that are racist, some that are homophobic, some that are xenophobic, some that are transphobic, some that don't care about the environment, some that are against government spending.
If we do this whole song and dance of "we gotta cater to the most rightward of group of Democrats on every issue" then no, there is actively no difference between the Democratic party and the Republican party. Basically we end up just being the Republican party but less visibility bigoted.
So while I don't think the party needs to be the party of socialists to be effective and progressive, this thing of "what about the part of the party that is actively just as hateful as the Republicans on this issue?"... I don't care. Why should those with the worst opinion in the room be the voice that's catered to? I'd take even a moderate voice over that.
I've always been a supporter of the idea that one thing leftists need to do is vote for the most progressive candidate in primaries. So I agree. I mean, I agree with basically all of that.
The worst people on the left are still better than the worst people on the right. Republicans are not catering to their most left-leaning folks.
As a whole? Yes. On individual issues? That's part of the issues to contend with with having a big tent, the worst opinion on any issue is potentially just as bad as the worst opinions of your opponent. Now, the people with those opinions on that issue might be great on everything else, but on that one issue, they're potentially just as bad. So listening to and acting on the most rightward voices in the party on any issue is not a good idea.
You could and maybe should say the same about leftward voices too. However since there's no left leaning party (again, big tent), there's a lot more space to move over there.
Edit: I should add, I'm talking about voters here, for the most part, not politicians.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I don't have a rosy opinion of either party or people in general though. So of course I'm going to feel this way.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I don't have a rosy opinion of either party or people in general though. So of course I'm going to feel this way.
We have seen this on the very forum repeatedly when people go fully mask off during long heated discussions.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me. I'm trying very hard to be very clear about what I'm saying. I'm not saying the parties are the same.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
I have never met one that will attend Nazi rallies I will agree. I have met plenty who will say Nazi shit though. They make it transparently clear they don't hate what that side does. They hate who it is directed at.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Yes, the total horrible package. An opinion on one topic isn't going to push someone to become a nazi. That takes a lot of bigotry.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Yes, the total horrible package. An opinion on one topic isn't going to push someone to become a nazi. That takes a lot of bigotry.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Yes, the total horrible package. An opinion on one topic isn't going to push someone to become a nazi. That takes a lot of bigotry.
BINGO, we have a winner!
Yes, saying exactly the same thing I've been saying this entire discussion.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Yes, the total horrible package. An opinion on one topic isn't going to push someone to become a nazi. That takes a lot of bigotry.
BINGO, we have a winner!
Yes, saying exactly the same thing I've been saying this entire discussion.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Yes, the total horrible package. An opinion on one topic isn't going to push someone to become a nazi. That takes a lot of bigotry.
BINGO, we have a winner!
Yes, saying exactly the same thing I've been saying this entire discussion.
False.
Your lack of understanding my point doesn't change that my point has been the same the whole way through. Go back and re read now that you understand what I'm saying.
Death of Rats on
No I don't.
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Yes, the total horrible package. An opinion on one topic isn't going to push someone to become a nazi. That takes a lot of bigotry.
BINGO, we have a winner!
Yes, saying exactly the same thing I've been saying this entire discussion.
False.
Your lack of understanding my point doesn't change that my point has been the same the whole way through. Go back and re read now that you understand what I'm saying.
The rosiest interpretation is that you were going off on a tangent about how the worst people and the second worst people might have overlapping shit ideas, which could be said about shitty people and overall good people too.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
And you don't think you can find worse on the right?
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
And you don't think you can find worse on the right?
What's a worse opinion about trans folk than "these people are groomers and shouldn't be allowed to exist"?
I've met Democrats who feel that way. What's worse than that?
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
And you don't think you can find worse on the right?
What is it you’re trying to argue here? That maybe we can find the single worst person in both parties and that the worst individual democrat on the planet isn’t as shitty as the worst individual republican on the planet?
If so, sure? Maybe? Also I don’t see what that matters, so I don’t care?
I already said there are probably more people who hold truly shitty beliefs on the right. What’s the point in narrowing it down to a single worst person?
minor incident on
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
And you don't think you can find worse on the right?
What's a worse opinion about trans folk than "these people are groomers and shouldn't be allowed to exist"?
1) You know how horribly deep the hate well goes
2) Thinking that about more groups of people
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
And you don't think you can find worse on the right?
What is it you’re trying to argue here? That maybe we can find the single worst person in both parties and that the worst individual democrat on the planet isn’t as shitty as the worst individual republican on the planet?
If so, sure? Maybe? Also I don’t see what that matters, so I don’t care?
The overall effect is that the left still aims for a less shitty outcome. It's still shitty, but it's less shitty.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
And you don't think you can find worse on the right?
What's a worse opinion about trans folk than "these people are groomers and shouldn't be allowed to exist"?
1) You know how horribly deep the hate well goes
2) Thinking that about more groups of people
Again, the point isn't a group of opinions on various issues. It's listening to the worst opinion on any single issue just because it's part of the tent. I honestly have no confidence that you actually understand my argument.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
And you don't think you can find worse on the right?
What's a worse opinion about trans folk than "these people are groomers and shouldn't be allowed to exist"?
1) You know how horribly deep the hate well goes
2) Thinking that about more groups of people
Again, the point isn't a group of opinions on various issues. It's listening to the worst opinion on any single issue just because it's part of the tent. I honestly have no confidence that you actually understand my argument.
I know what you're implying but you're skipping steps to make it make any sense.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
And you don't think you can find worse on the right?
What is it you’re trying to argue here? That maybe we can find the single worst person in both parties and that the worst individual democrat on the planet isn’t as shitty as the worst individual republican on the planet?
If so, sure? Maybe? Also I don’t see what that matters, so I don’t care?
I already said there are probably more people who hold truly shitty beliefs on the right. What’s the point in narrowing it down to a single worst person?
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
Please don't insult me.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
And you don't think you can find worse on the right?
What's a worse opinion about trans folk than "these people are groomers and shouldn't be allowed to exist"?
1) You know how horribly deep the hate well goes
2) Thinking that about more groups of people
Again, the point isn't a group of opinions on various issues. It's listening to the worst opinion on any single issue just because it's part of the tent. I honestly have no confidence that you actually understand my argument.
I know what you're implying but you're skipping steps to make it make any sense.
What am I arguing then? Because you're talking about people with multitudes of bad opinions, where I'm talking about people who hold one terrible belief, that belief being catered to, and it pushing the party rightward on a lot of issues if we're not aware of the cost of chasing dissatisfied former Republicans.
But I'll say what you want to hear first, the worst Republican hold a totality of worst beliefs than the worst Democrat.
The worst take on any single issue, however, is different beast and that's where my argument is at.
It's a problem of the big tent. And it exists in the opposite direction as well.
They really are not just as bad. They might be way worse than they should be, but the worst people on the right are going around blowing up abortion clinics and holding Nazi rallies.
Theyre just racist in ways that fly under your personal radar. Frequently thats going to mean theyre more destructive, not less.
I'm not a particular fan of moral relativism so I think I am also averse to the idea of political relativism. So it's ... down to viewpoint, I guess. I can't argue that it isn't true, just that in my experience, I don't like using that standard.
I feel there are too many resources available to look at political theory strictly from the viewpoint of the United States, especially since the United States doesn't accurately teach its own history. The fact that MLK was a socialist is -never- going to be discussed in America.
Just so we're clear, the appeals to solidarity with the hispanic / latino minority need to end in this thread, for everybody that cosigned a "sorry you can't have that" sentiment over this page and the last one regarding moderate reforms, the dead bill, or tighter border security in general. You're not in solidarity with the hispanic and latino Americans anymore.
I don't think that changes anyone's argument or shifts their position, but I feel like it's important to note because the broad cloak of unity with minority Americans is strong moral ground to argue from and it simply does not exist for those folks. And I mean, that's not even necessarily a bad thing! There are some compelling moral arguments for extremely permissive immigration policy - they just don't include a claim that you're shoulder to shoulder with hispanics and latinos here in the US. That population is not in agreement with one another on the issue, and y'all are some distance from the majority of them.
I wanted to address this, because you made some leaps that are not at all important. (Also, that study was in the heart of COVID, so I would want to see something much more recent before we really dove too far into it).
But:
There's a lot to digest here, but some takeaways:
- While most Latinos in the US say major change needs to happen, party is a bigger predictor that ethnicity as to whether policy should be more or less restrictive.
- Latino-Americans with legal status are more ambivalent about paths to citizenship or allowing 'dreamers' to stay than non-citizens. Nearly half don't like either idea.
- Progressive attitudes toward border policy fade generationally. US-born Latinos are less likely to support major change to create a more permissive environment.
Lots more data there, not much of it in support of generalizations about Latino support for significantly more permissive immigration policy, not much room for solidarity. The strongest support comes for policies that the lefty contingent here think are very weak improvements, and there's plenty of appetite among Latinos surveyed for tighter restrictions.
I'm going to spoiler my response because of images and not wanting to eat up space:
You have taken the results as an "up/down" kind of the thing, but that's not what the study was asking. For example, talking about Latino support for dreamers, I assume you are referring to this:
or this:
And if you aren't careful, you would get the impression "nearly half don't like either idea", but that's not at ALL what that says. It says these are the percentage of people who think it's a "VERY important goal". That's WILDLY different, in fact, if you look at the questions used and the breakdown of responses directly (this is linked from your link) https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/2021-NSL-topline_immigration-policy.pdf
You get:
You'll notice that very important still jives with the "52 percent of all latinos" in the graph on the page you linked, however there are 5 levels of this, and very + somewhat important are 84% of the latino population asked, and support is fairly steady from foreign born to 3rd gen+. Worse, did not answer was 2/5 of the number of "not at all important". Saying "nearly half don't like either idea" is, well, misrepresenting the data, though pew did a pretty good job of that themselves. You even get something like 83% supporting a path to legalized status of people already here, not just dreamers.
Your other real point, about party being a bigger indicator is one of those things that yes.. is true, but also requires more info. Of the people they talked to (and I can't get into whether this is selection bias or if it's a real trend among Latinos (well, I can, but it's anecdotal) I'll let this speak for itself when you look at what respondents said their party preference was:
At any rate, based on things you've posted, you don't get to claim that people can't claim solidarity with the group, or that said group isn't showing solidarity within it, to try and score some points here. People shouldn't do that however for other reasons, not the least of which is it leads people who aren't part of that group speaking for that group. Speaking for asylum seekers and desperate people who are caught up by the racist policies of the US? Yeah, folks can speak up for them no problem.
Posts
This immigration reform? Fuck em. Their wants suck shit.
This isn't immigration reform in any way, shape or form.
I don't think that changes anyone's argument or shifts their position, but I feel like it's important to note because the broad cloak of unity with minority Americans is strong moral ground to argue from and it simply does not exist for those folks. And I mean, that's not even necessarily a bad thing! There are some compelling moral arguments for extremely permissive immigration policy - they just don't include a claim that you're shoulder to shoulder with hispanics and latinos here in the US. That population is not in agreement with one another on the issue, and y'all are some distance from the majority of them.
There's a big tent. A lot of competing interests. There's a lot of people who jumped ship from republicans and are now Democrats. Guess what? They still have the same awful beliefs they did then. Just on different issues from one another. There's some that are racist, some that are homophobic, some that are xenophobic, some that are transphobic, some that don't care about the environment, some that are against government spending.
If we do this whole song and dance of "we gotta cater to the most rightward of group of Democrats on every issue" then no, there is actively no difference between the Democratic party and the Republican party. Basically we end up just being the Republican party but less visibility bigoted.
So while I don't think the party needs to be the party of socialists to be effective and progressive, this thing of "what about the part of the party that is actively just as hateful as the Republicans on this issue?"... I don't care. Why should those with the worst opinion in the room be the voice that's catered to? I'd take even a moderate voice over that.
This seems very similar to what I said back on page 89 about zooming in to deal with dissent within the party, and also this comment as an extension of that idea. What do you think?
I've always been a supporter of the idea that one thing leftists need to do is vote for the most progressive candidate in primaries. So I agree. I mean, I agree with basically all of that.
As a whole? Yes. On individual issues? That's part of the issues to contend with with having a big tent, the worst opinion on any issue is potentially just as bad as the worst opinions of your opponent. Now, the people with those opinions on that issue might be great on everything else, but on that one issue, they're potentially just as bad. So listening to and acting on the most rightward voices in the party on any issue is not a good idea.
You could and maybe should say the same about leftward voices too. However since there's no left leaning party (again, big tent), there's a lot more space to move over there.
Edit: I should add, I'm talking about voters here, for the most part, not politicians.
Worst people, worst total packages. Worst opinions? I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's no Democrats (again, talking voters) who feel exactly the same about trans folk or immigration as the worst Republicans. Or basically any other issue. They're better on other issues, hence being in the party.
I don't have a rosy opinion of either party or people in general though. So of course I'm going to feel this way.
I look forward to your brain scan report?
We have seen this on the very forum repeatedly when people go fully mask off during long heated discussions.
Please don't insult me. I'm trying very hard to be very clear about what I'm saying. I'm not saying the parties are the same.
You've never met a severely racist Democrat or a severely transphobic Democrat or a severely homophobic Democrat? Having a horrible opinion on one issue typically isn't going to make you decide to go to a nazi rally. It's having an ethos that's horrible that'll push you that far.
I have never met one that attends Nazi rallies or thrown heils at political events. Do you understand that worst and bad are different?
Or at the least less inclined to devote their spare time to try to go hurt them.
I have never met one that will attend Nazi rallies I will agree. I have met plenty who will say Nazi shit though. They make it transparently clear they don't hate what that side does. They hate who it is directed at.
Yes, the total horrible package. An opinion on one topic isn't going to push someone to become a nazi. That takes a lot of bigotry.
BINGO, we have a winner!
Yes, saying exactly the same thing I've been saying this entire discussion.
False.
Your lack of understanding my point doesn't change that my point has been the same the whole way through. Go back and re read now that you understand what I'm saying.
Cool, but I have. There’s no secret sauce you get for declaring yourself a democrat that keeps you from being a bigot or a racist and I don’t understand what would make anyone think that.
I’m not about to argue that it isn’t way more common in right wingers, but there are plenty of avowed democrats who would love to see all trans people locked up. Including some (thankfully former) forumers I can think of.
The rosiest interpretation is that you were going off on a tangent about how the worst people and the second worst people might have overlapping shit ideas, which could be said about shitty people and overall good people too.
*shrug*
Hillary was shown as a TERF post her 2016 presidential run.
And you don't think you can find worse on the right?
Zero people are claiming the left is all good people.
What's a worse opinion about trans folk than "these people are groomers and shouldn't be allowed to exist"?
I've met Democrats who feel that way. What's worse than that?
don't include democrats with the left
democrats are more center right
What is it you’re trying to argue here? That maybe we can find the single worst person in both parties and that the worst individual democrat on the planet isn’t as shitty as the worst individual republican on the planet?
If so, sure? Maybe? Also I don’t see what that matters, so I don’t care?
I already said there are probably more people who hold truly shitty beliefs on the right. What’s the point in narrowing it down to a single worst person?
1) You know how horribly deep the hate well goes
2) Thinking that about more groups of people
The overall effect is that the left still aims for a less shitty outcome. It's still shitty, but it's less shitty.
Again, the point isn't a group of opinions on various issues. It's listening to the worst opinion on any single issue just because it's part of the tent. I honestly have no confidence that you actually understand my argument.
I know what you're implying but you're skipping steps to make it make any sense.
You got granular, so I got granular.
Depends on where you are standing.
What am I arguing then? Because you're talking about people with multitudes of bad opinions, where I'm talking about people who hold one terrible belief, that belief being catered to, and it pushing the party rightward on a lot of issues if we're not aware of the cost of chasing dissatisfied former Republicans.
But I'll say what you want to hear first, the worst Republican hold a totality of worst beliefs than the worst Democrat.
The worst take on any single issue, however, is different beast and that's where my argument is at.
It's a problem of the big tent. And it exists in the opposite direction as well.
Oh we knew it before then too.
Theyre just racist in ways that fly under your personal radar. Frequently thats going to mean theyre more destructive, not less.
I'm not a particular fan of moral relativism so I think I am also averse to the idea of political relativism. So it's ... down to viewpoint, I guess. I can't argue that it isn't true, just that in my experience, I don't like using that standard.
I feel there are too many resources available to look at political theory strictly from the viewpoint of the United States, especially since the United States doesn't accurately teach its own history. The fact that MLK was a socialist is -never- going to be discussed in America.
I wanted to address this, because you made some leaps that are not at all important. (Also, that study was in the heart of COVID, so I would want to see something much more recent before we really dove too far into it).
But:
I'm going to spoiler my response because of images and not wanting to eat up space:
or this:
And if you aren't careful, you would get the impression "nearly half don't like either idea", but that's not at ALL what that says. It says these are the percentage of people who think it's a "VERY important goal". That's WILDLY different, in fact, if you look at the questions used and the breakdown of responses directly (this is linked from your link) https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/2021-NSL-topline_immigration-policy.pdf
You get:
You'll notice that very important still jives with the "52 percent of all latinos" in the graph on the page you linked, however there are 5 levels of this, and very + somewhat important are 84% of the latino population asked, and support is fairly steady from foreign born to 3rd gen+. Worse, did not answer was 2/5 of the number of "not at all important". Saying "nearly half don't like either idea" is, well, misrepresenting the data, though pew did a pretty good job of that themselves. You even get something like 83% supporting a path to legalized status of people already here, not just dreamers.
Your other real point, about party being a bigger indicator is one of those things that yes.. is true, but also requires more info. Of the people they talked to (and I can't get into whether this is selection bias or if it's a real trend among Latinos (well, I can, but it's anecdotal) I'll let this speak for itself when you look at what respondents said their party preference was:
At any rate, based on things you've posted, you don't get to claim that people can't claim solidarity with the group, or that said group isn't showing solidarity within it, to try and score some points here. People shouldn't do that however for other reasons, not the least of which is it leads people who aren't part of that group speaking for that group. Speaking for asylum seekers and desperate people who are caught up by the racist policies of the US? Yeah, folks can speak up for them no problem.